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Author Topic: Question regarding the Defense of the Early Church  (Read 1972 times) Average Rating: 0
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nicodemus144
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« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2014, 10:32:23 AM »

ok, thanks for replies. Smiley it can be scary to a newcomer, especially one already suspicious of human authority. Smiley i'm trying though! Cheesy
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“Does our law judge a man before it hears him and knows what he is doing?” -John 7:51 (NKJV)

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« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2014, 12:08:59 PM »

Seeing how the debate with Drake Shelton has derailed this thread from its original purpose, I have split the debate off this thread and given it its own thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,57505.0.html
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« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2014, 12:14:05 PM »

The preaching of Christ seems to focus more on charity and well doing, well being, socialism, humanity, morality like that is the Church, not some institution. The institutional religion is what condemned and murdered Christ and against whom Christ focussed most of his refutation.

Whether the Jews held it up properly or not, didn't Christ institute that same religion?

Then why aren't Christians, Jews?

The Jews of yesterday are Christians. The Jews of today are not.

Christianity has some concepts that are totally foreign and antijewish.

That is an honest Christian there.

Based on Rashi's 11th century teachings; and not on the Apostle's 1st century teachings.

You don't believe the apostle's 1st century teachings:

Rom. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Rom. 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

1 John 3:4 Sin is a transgression of the law


I can give you a lot of NT quote showing that the Law has changed.

I think the Apostles were confused.

Judaism is an offshoot of paganism. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism...
Christianity isn't an offshot Judaism, nor Judaism an offshoot of paganism, so I can't put much stock in your knowledge of paganism.

Most of Judaism mythology = Middle Eastern mythology that was prelevant among heathen peoples. Abraham himself according to the Bible came from the heathens. Some archeologists say that the jews were actually a caananite nomadic tribe and that Yahweh was at some point(initially?) heathen caananite deity and his wife was Astarte. The Documentary Hypothesis says the "Torah" "Pentateuch" was not written by Moses but had multiple authors. Some of the laws in the Torah and the stories in it are totally unappealing to intelligent ethics and values. It's clear history that before there ever was a "Judaism" there was "Paganism" and that "Christianity" sprang forth from "Judaism". Judaism seems to have some syncretic pagan parts and for sure Christianity has syncretic Jewish teachings and Christianity came forth from the background of Judaism and the religion of the Jews.
I haven't asked you to barf up more rancid bites of pseudoscholarship that some "experts" have prechewed for you, such as "Most of Judaism mythology = Middle Eastern mythology that was prelevant among heathen peoples."  For one thing, "most" =/= "all."

Nor is "none" as you asserted.

Quote
The Bible says that Abraham came from the heathen? Oh, where does it say that?

Abraham's departure from Ur. We are later told that Abraham's relatives in Ur were worshipping idols(Rachel stealing the idols of he fathers). You can find Abraham's departure from Ur in the Jewish Scriptures, Christian Scriptures and Muslims Scriptures. Make your pick.

Quote
Yes, I'm aware of the theory of a Yahweh-Astarte pair, and the meagre evidence twisted into such a narrative.  The Biblical narrative of the Hebrews falling into Canaanite paganism and assimilating the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob into it fits better.

Scholars say that most of the Tanakh was written during the Babylonian captivity to explain the Jewish condition.

Quote
The documentary hypothesis is for one thing, plural: its partisans can't agree amongst themselves on it.  Since the Pentateuch/Torah doesn't say that Moses wrote it, there doesn't seem to be much point on arguing it.

Then you got a problem. Because if Moses didn't write it then who did? There is little to no proof of the historicy of Moses or the existence of Israel in Egypt and the Exodus. What basis do you have for the inspiration of the Torah?

Quote
"Some of the laws in the Torah and the stories in it are totally unappealing to intelligent ethics and values." I know that they don't appeal to the smug who think they know better, and don't want anything prove the contrary.  Atheism-the opiate of the dissolute.

Actually the Judeo-Christian-Islamic theology is the one who appeals to smugs and trolls who find justification of criminal, obscure acts in their religion.

Considering that the laws are primitive and cannot be universally bind as ethical and that it had many authors and editor, what makes your "torah" inspired and authoritative? Where it's her authority drawed from?

Quote
Since Judaism dates from the time of Christ, and their Torah warns them of the Canaanite paganism over a thousand years before that, of course paganism (some form of it at least) predates it.

What Torah? Didn't you say that Moses did not write the Torah? According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Torah was compiled and finished mostly around the 6th century BCE. The Caananite religion preceded that, and all pagan religions did. Plus there were many "scrolls of the laws". On the time of King Josiah the High Priest Hilkiah "discovered" a scroll of the law they knew nothing about and that they were transgressing at that moment. As I said no proof of an Israeli migration according to archaeology. So what authority does the Torah hold then? Where does this authority come from? From her editors, redactors, etc? Smiley "How do you say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly he made it falsely; the pen of the scribes made it a lie."(Jer 8:Cool


Quote
Since the New Testament predates the Talmud, how did the former's Christianity "spring forth from" the latter's Judaism?

Since the OT precedes the NT, Christianity is a sect of Judaism, as your bible says "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect" Acts 24:5

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nicodemus144
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« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2014, 01:33:01 PM »

Seeing how the debate with Drake Shelton has derailed this thread from its original purpose, I have split the debate off this thread and given it its own thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,57505.0.html

thank you, Peter.
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“Does our law judge a man before it hears him and knows what he is doing?” -John 7:51 (NKJV)

I am investigating Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2014, 02:11:14 PM »

The preaching of Christ seems to focus more on charity and well doing, well being, socialism, humanity, morality like that is the Church, not some institution. The institutional religion is what condemned and murdered Christ and against whom Christ focussed most of his refutation.

Whether the Jews held it up properly or not, didn't Christ institute that same religion?

Then why aren't Christians, Jews?

The Jews of yesterday are Christians. The Jews of today are not.

Christianity has some concepts that are totally foreign and antijewish.

That is an honest Christian there.

Based on Rashi's 11th century teachings; and not on the Apostle's 1st century teachings.

You don't believe the apostle's 1st century teachings:

Rom. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Rom. 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

1 John 3:4 Sin is a transgression of the law


I can give you a lot of NT quote showing that the Law has changed.

I think the Apostles were confused.

Judaism is an offshoot of paganism. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism...
Christianity isn't an offshot Judaism, nor Judaism an offshoot of paganism, so I can't put much stock in your knowledge of paganism.

Most of Judaism mythology = Middle Eastern mythology that was prelevant among heathen peoples. Abraham himself according to the Bible came from the heathens. Some archeologists say that the jews were actually a caananite nomadic tribe and that Yahweh was at some point(initially?) heathen caananite deity and his wife was Astarte. The Documentary Hypothesis says the "Torah" "Pentateuch" was not written by Moses but had multiple authors. Some of the laws in the Torah and the stories in it are totally unappealing to intelligent ethics and values. It's clear history that before there ever was a "Judaism" there was "Paganism" and that "Christianity" sprang forth from "Judaism". Judaism seems to have some syncretic pagan parts and for sure Christianity has syncretic Jewish teachings and Christianity came forth from the background of Judaism and the religion of the Jews.
I haven't asked you to barf up more rancid bites of pseudoscholarship that some "experts" have prechewed for you, such as "Most of Judaism mythology = Middle Eastern mythology that was prelevant among heathen peoples."  For one thing, "most" =/= "all."

Nor is "none" as you asserted.

Quote
The Bible says that Abraham came from the heathen? Oh, where does it say that?

Abraham's departure from Ur. We are later told that Abraham's relatives in Ur were worshipping idols(Rachel stealing the idols of he fathers). You can find Abraham's departure from Ur in the Jewish Scriptures, Christian Scriptures and Muslims Scriptures. Make your pick.

Quote
Yes, I'm aware of the theory of a Yahweh-Astarte pair, and the meagre evidence twisted into such a narrative.  The Biblical narrative of the Hebrews falling into Canaanite paganism and assimilating the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob into it fits better.

Scholars say that most of the Tanakh was written during the Babylonian captivity to explain the Jewish condition.

Quote
The documentary hypothesis is for one thing, plural: its partisans can't agree amongst themselves on it.  Since the Pentateuch/Torah doesn't say that Moses wrote it, there doesn't seem to be much point on arguing it.

Then you got a problem. Because if Moses didn't write it then who did? There is little to no proof of the historicy of Moses or the existence of Israel in Egypt and the Exodus. What basis do you have for the inspiration of the Torah?

Quote
"Some of the laws in the Torah and the stories in it are totally unappealing to intelligent ethics and values." I know that they don't appeal to the smug who think they know better, and don't want anything prove the contrary.  Atheism-the opiate of the dissolute.

Actually the Judeo-Christian-Islamic theology is the one who appeals to smugs and trolls who find justification of criminal, obscure acts in their religion.

Considering that the laws are primitive and cannot be universally bind as ethical and that it had many authors and editor, what makes your "torah" inspired and authoritative? Where it's her authority drawed from?

Quote
Since Judaism dates from the time of Christ, and their Torah warns them of the Canaanite paganism over a thousand years before that, of course paganism (some form of it at least) predates it.

What Torah? Didn't you say that Moses did not write the Torah? According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Torah was compiled and finished mostly around the 6th century BCE. The Caananite religion preceded that, and all pagan religions did. Plus there were many "scrolls of the laws". On the time of King Josiah the High Priest Hilkiah "discovered" a scroll of the law they knew nothing about and that they were transgressing at that moment. As I said no proof of an Israeli migration according to archaeology. So what authority does the Torah hold then? Where does this authority come from? From her editors, redactors, etc? Smiley "How do you say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly he made it falsely; the pen of the scribes made it a lie."(Jer 8:Cool


Quote
Since the New Testament predates the Talmud, how did the former's Christianity "spring forth from" the latter's Judaism?

Since the OT precedes the NT, Christianity is a sect of Judaism, as your bible says "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect" Acts 24:5


answered here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,57505.msg1101013.html#msg1101013
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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