Poll

Should the Holy and Great Council be postponed?

Yes, more preparational work is needed
17 (41.5%)
No, the historical Council should be held as scheduled
14 (34.1%)
No, it shouldn't be held at all until agenda changes
10 (24.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Voting closed: June 24, 2016, 09:11:23 AM

Author Topic: Various Discussions about The Holy and Great Council of Crete 2016  (Read 159719 times)

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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #405 on: March 18, 2014, 05:46:18 PM »
So then what happens to all those "little" regional Churches trying to come back into communion?

Can you give an example?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #406 on: March 18, 2014, 06:39:22 PM »

I am not happy with Constantinople or Moscow. I am starting to put my belief in my own jurisdictions, the Orthodox Church in America, to overcome her issues, forget about canonical anomalies, and just start praying and working more than ever to convert the Godless and unchurched to Holy Orthodoxy. Let folks, guided by the Holy Spirit, vote with their feet and their wallets.

This might be exactly what happens, if this council were to materialize.
And it most likely will not be ruled an Ecumenical Council if some of the pre-councilar declarations are accepted.

None of the Holy Orthodox Churches, not the Ecumenical Patriarchate, none of the Pre-Conciliar Commissions, have ever promoted the long planned, forthcoming gathering to be an "Ecumenical Council;" it is not and never has contemplated discussion of matters of dogma, of which there is no question within the Church; it is a "Holy and Great Synod (Council) of the Orthodox Church," a synod--a gathering--an assembly of bishops, who will address a jointly agreed-upon agenda dealing with contemporary issues of common concern which the Holy Churches face today.
That Council in 381 in Constantinople was so planned, and it ended up setting its seal on the Creed.
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Offline orthoreader

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #407 on: March 18, 2014, 10:55:37 PM »
So then what happens to all those "little" regional Churches trying to come back into communion?

Can you give an example?

Well. What will be the path to communion for a Macedonian Church, or a Ukrainian Church, or a Coptic Church if the EP is compromised?

Offline kyril

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #408 on: March 18, 2014, 10:57:56 PM »
What we see today is the ugly attitude of the MP pushing for a "might makes right" policy where status quo in terms of geopolitical influence determines primacy
Isn't that precisely the reason why Constantinople was given the primacy in the first place (and, some might argue, Rome)? Because it was the most politically significant city?

Geopolitical influence is *one* of the factors and by far not the most important. Tradition and above all, Orthodoxy of faith, are much more important.
Constantinople was given primacy because the older, more traditional see, defected from the Orthodox faith and the Catholic communion with both the filioque and a mistaken ecclesiology. And by then Constantinople had already been the traditional reference for the Christian world, both East and West for 5-6 centuries. The geopolitical aspect comes in in that even if it were not the second in the dyptichs, the other jurisdictions were de facto unable to take up that role in that historical moment. But if Constantinople did not have tradition or worse, was not Orthodox, it could not have become the first see.

Moscow's role as the largest and most influential see should start with the opposition to the anti-Christian KGB elite of Russia and all forms of post-communist revolutionary ideas as Eurasianism. As long as Moscow fails at that, it is very far from being the Christian reference it claims to be for just opposing gay unions. I'd rather be neighbor to a gay couple than having my priest being just an apparatchik of the Moscovite ruling class. Moscow, choosing *again* to be the pawn not even of the Russian people, but of FSB tyrants, has no Christian moral whatsoever.

I am not happy with Constantinople or Moscow. I am starting to put my belief in my own jurisdictions, the Orthodox Church in America, to overcome her issues, forget about canonical anomalies, and just start praying and working more than ever to convert the Godless and unchurched to Holy Orthodoxy. Let folks, guided by the Holy Spirit, vote with their feet and their wallets.
Well finally! someone seems to have remembered what our purpose is here on earth, and not just feet/wallets; but guided by the Holy Gospels and Holy Tradition. Let the +politicians - EP and MP and any other
 'Ps' settle their problems among themselves and let us get on with following the teachings of Christ our God.
kyril

Offline Nephi

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #409 on: March 19, 2014, 12:04:20 AM »
So then what happens to all those "little" regional Churches trying to come back into communion?

Can you give an example?

Well. What will be the path to communion for a Macedonian Church, or a Ukrainian Church, or a Coptic Church if the EP is compromised?

I'm really not sure what you're asking. It's not like the EP is the deciding factor in who enters communion with whom or anything like that.

Offline Basil 320

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #410 on: March 19, 2014, 02:56:00 AM »
So then what happens to all those "little" regional Churches trying to come back into communion?

Can you give an example?

Well. What will be the path to communion for a Macedonian Church, or a Ukrainian Church, or a Coptic Church if the EP is compromised?

The Macedonian schism would require reconciliation with the Church of Serbia, from which is separated. It was Marshall Tito who participated in facilitation of the establishment of the Macedonian Church, in an effort to diminish the authority of the Serbian Patriarchate. The Ecumenical Patriarchate can attempt to facilitate a reconciliation, but it should be the Patriarchate of Serbia's call. When the Ecumenical Patriarchate had convened the historic assembly of the Heads of the Holy Autocephalous Orthodox Churches at the Phanar in 1992, it invited Macedonian Church leadership to meet informally with the Serbian Church leaders. I never saw any results of that meeting, if indeed the Serbian Church consented to the meeting, but clearly, a resolution was not reached, in any event.

The Ukrainian separations, likewise, are primarily in the realm of responsibility of the Church under which the several Ukrainian Churches separated, the Patriarchate of Moscow. Two of the several Ukrainian separated Churches appealed to the Ecumenical Patriarchate early in the schism, with the support of the Ukrainian government at the time, in 1995 if I'm not mistaken. The EP ultimately advised them to unite first amongst themselves, before he could proceed with further discussions with them, and, committed to not unilaterally intervene in the affairs of the Patriarchate of Moscow.

The Coptic Church is another matter, involving not matters of administration, but of dogma, i.e. the dogma propounded by the 4th Ecumenical Synod (Council). In the past roughly 50 years, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has sponsored pan-Orthodox dialogues with Oriental Church representatives that have resulted in clarification and articulation of the differences in understanding the dogmatic dispute. Not-with-standing the desires of His All Holiness and many in the leadership and others of the Orthodox Church, and the common traditions of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, I don't think the Eastern Orthodox Church can accommodate reconciliation of this dogmatic dispute, because Eastern Orthodox Christians must accept the dogma of the church as propounded by the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils), without clarification or footnotes.
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Offline john_mo

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #411 on: March 19, 2014, 06:15:00 AM »
So then what happens to all those "little" regional Churches trying to come back into communion?

Can you give an example?

Well. What will be the path to communion for a Macedonian Church, or a Ukrainian Church, or a Coptic Church if the EP is compromised?

The Macedonian schism would require reconciliation with the Church of Serbia, from which is separated. It was Marshall Tito who participated in facilitation of the establishment of the Macedonian Church, in an effort to diminish the authority of the Serbian Patriarchate. The Ecumenical Patriarchate can attempt to facilitate a reconciliation, but it should be the Patriarchate of Serbia's call. When the Ecumenical Patriarchate had convened the historic assembly of the Heads of the Holy Autocephalous Orthodox Churches at the Phanar in 1992, it invited Macedonian Church leadership to meet informally with the Serbian Church leaders. I never saw any results of that meeting, if indeed the Serbian Church consented to the meeting, but clearly, a resolution was not reached, in any event.

The Ukrainian separations, likewise, are primarily in the realm of responsibility of the Church under which the several Ukrainian Churches separated, the Patriarchate of Moscow. Two of the several Ukrainian separated Churches appealed to the Ecumenical Patriarchate early in the schism, with the support of the Ukrainian government at the time, in 1995 if I'm not mistaken. The EP ultimately advised them to unite first amongst themselves, before he could proceed with further discussions with them, and, committed to not unilaterally intervene in the affairs of the Patriarchate of Moscow.

The Coptic Church is another matter, involving not matters of administration, but of dogma, i.e. the dogma propounded by the 4th Ecumenical Synod (Council). In the past roughly 50 years, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has sponsored pan-Orthodox dialogues with Oriental Church representatives that have resulted in clarification and articulation of the differences in understanding the dogmatic dispute. Not-with-standing the desires of His All Holiness and many in the leadership and others of the Orthodox Church, and the common traditions of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, I don't think the Eastern Orthodox Church can accommodate reconciliation of this dogmatic dispute, because Eastern Orthodox Christians must accept the dogma of the church as propounded by the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils), without clarification or footnotes.

So it is wrong to accept the theology and reasoning behind any of the 7 Ecumenical Councils if you needed some reading material to help you understand it?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 06:17:34 AM by john_mo »
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #412 on: March 19, 2014, 07:53:57 AM »
No, of course not. Why would you think I was questioning the theology of the church?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 07:55:04 AM by Basil 320 »
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Offline john_mo

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #413 on: March 19, 2014, 10:03:30 AM »
In the bold portion quoted, you seemed to be saying that the 7 Councils are/should be self evident.  I just didn't understand what would be wrong to have clarification of them.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #414 on: March 19, 2014, 10:29:49 AM »
The Coptic Church is another matter, involving not matters of administration, but of dogma, i.e. the dogma propounded by the 4th Ecumenical Synod (Council). In the past roughly 50 years, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has sponsored pan-Orthodox dialogues with Oriental Church representatives that have resulted in clarification and articulation of the differences in understanding the dogmatic dispute. Not-with-standing the desires of His All Holiness and many in the leadership and others of the Orthodox Church, and the common traditions of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, I don't think the Eastern Orthodox Church can accommodate reconciliation of this dogmatic dispute, because Eastern Orthodox Christians must accept the dogma of the church as propounded by the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils), without clarification or footnotes.

Because Constantinople II wasn't a clarification of Chalcedon.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #415 on: March 19, 2014, 10:41:35 AM »
The Coptic Church is another matter, involving not matters of administration, but of dogma, i.e. the dogma propounded by the 4th Ecumenical Synod (Council). In the past roughly 50 years, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has sponsored pan-Orthodox dialogues with Oriental Church representatives that have resulted in clarification and articulation of the differences in understanding the dogmatic dispute. Not-with-standing the desires of His All Holiness and many in the leadership and others of the Orthodox Church, and the common traditions of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, I don't think the Eastern Orthodox Church can accommodate reconciliation of this dogmatic dispute, because Eastern Orthodox Christians must accept the dogma of the church as propounded by the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils), without clarification or footnotes.

Because Constantinople II wasn't a clarification of Chalcedon.

+1?
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Offline James2

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #416 on: March 19, 2014, 11:57:22 AM »
The Coptic Church is another matter, involving not matters of administration, but of dogma, i.e. the dogma propounded by the 4th Ecumenical Synod (Council). In the past roughly 50 years, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has sponsored pan-Orthodox dialogues with Oriental Church representatives that have resulted in clarification and articulation of the differences in understanding the dogmatic dispute. Not-with-standing the desires of His All Holiness and many in the leadership and others of the Orthodox Church, and the common traditions of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, I don't think the Eastern Orthodox Church can accommodate reconciliation of this dogmatic dispute, because Eastern Orthodox Christians must accept the dogma of the church as propounded by the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils), without clarification or footnotes.

Because Constantinople II wasn't a clarification of Chalcedon.

Clarification . . . yeah, that's the ticket!

Offline orthoreader

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #417 on: March 19, 2014, 12:05:33 PM »
Quote
It was Marshall Tito who participated in facilitation of the establishment of the Macedonian Church, in an effort to diminish the authority of the Serbian Patriarchate.

That's the going narrative. I know.

But you answered my question. The path to Autocephaly is only through the "mother Church."

Gracie !
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 12:08:22 PM by orthoreader »

Offline Nephi

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #418 on: March 19, 2014, 12:11:47 PM »
The Coptic Church is another matter, involving not matters of administration, but of dogma, i.e. the dogma propounded by the 4th Ecumenical Synod (Council). In the past roughly 50 years, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has sponsored pan-Orthodox dialogues with Oriental Church representatives that have resulted in clarification and articulation of the differences in understanding the dogmatic dispute. Not-with-standing the desires of His All Holiness and many in the leadership and others of the Orthodox Church, and the common traditions of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, I don't think the Eastern Orthodox Church can accommodate reconciliation of this dogmatic dispute, because Eastern Orthodox Christians must accept the dogma of the church as propounded by the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils), without clarification or footnotes.

I do have to say that viewing the Ecumenical Councils, or really any council for that matter, as self-evident, self-interpreting, self-explanatory etc. is just a bit wrong.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #419 on: March 19, 2014, 04:09:33 PM »
The Coptic Church is another matter, involving not matters of administration, but of dogma, i.e. the dogma propounded by the 4th Ecumenical Synod (Council). In the past roughly 50 years, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has sponsored pan-Orthodox dialogues with Oriental Church representatives that have resulted in clarification and articulation of the differences in understanding the dogmatic dispute. Not-with-standing the desires of His All Holiness and many in the leadership and others of the Orthodox Church, and the common traditions of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, I don't think the Eastern Orthodox Church can accommodate reconciliation of this dogmatic dispute, because Eastern Orthodox Christians must accept the dogma of the church as propounded by the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils), without clarification or footnotes.

I do have to say that viewing the Ecumenical Councils, or really any council for that matter, as self-evident, self-interpreting, self-explanatory etc. is just a bit wrong.

I agree with you and I think that most participants of the EO-OO consultations would agree. The problem seems to be not with the theologians but with a fear of schisms exploding all over the place. Could you imagine what would happen with folks who stress 100% blind adherence (with no clarifications and footnotes) to man-made calendars and service books?

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #420 on: March 19, 2014, 04:25:06 PM »
Could you imagine what would happen with folks who stress 100% blind adherence (with no clarifications and footnotes) to man-made calendars and service books?

I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline kyril

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #421 on: March 19, 2014, 05:48:11 PM »
Is this an example of "turn the other cheek"?
kyril

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #422 on: March 19, 2014, 06:20:38 PM »
Could you imagine what would happen with folks who stress 100% blind adherence (with no clarifications and footnotes) to man-made calendars and service books?



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Offline Basil 320

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #423 on: March 19, 2014, 08:37:13 PM »
The Coptic Church is another matter, involving not matters of administration, but of dogma, i.e. the dogma propounded by the 4th Ecumenical Synod (Council). In the past roughly 50 years, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has sponsored pan-Orthodox dialogues with Oriental Church representatives that have resulted in clarification and articulation of the differences in understanding the dogmatic dispute. Not-with-standing the desires of His All Holiness and many in the leadership and others of the Orthodox Church, and the common traditions of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, I don't think the Eastern Orthodox Church can accommodate reconciliation of this dogmatic dispute, because Eastern Orthodox Christians must accept the dogma of the church as propounded by the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils), without clarification or footnotes.

I do have to say that viewing the Ecumenical Councils, or really any council for that matter, as self-evident, self-interpreting, self-explanatory etc. is just a bit wrong.

I agree with you and I think that most participants of the EO-OO consultations would agree. The problem seems to be not with the theologians but with a fear of schisms exploding all over the place. Could you imagine what would happen with folks who stress 100% blind adherence (with no clarifications and footnotes) to man-made calendars and service books?

If I'm not mistaken, I thought belief in the church's dogma is considered necessary for salvation in the Eastern Orthodox Church. There are no "yea, buts" in regard to dogma. Don't priests commit to acceptance of the dogma of the 7 Ecumenical Synods at ordination? I recall too, having seen some time ago, a Service of Holy Chrismation used by ROCOR that asks the catechumen, "Do you accept the dogma of the 7 Ecumenical Synods?"  The response must be "Yes," not, "But..." or "Except that..."

"Man made calendars" are not dogmatic.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #424 on: March 19, 2014, 09:20:11 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, I thought belief in the church's dogma is considered necessary for salvation in the Eastern Orthodox Church. There are no "yea, buts" in regard to dogma. Don't priests commit to acceptance of the dogma of the 7 Ecumenical Synods at ordination? I recall too, having seen some time ago, a Service of Holy Chrismation used by ROCOR that asks the catechumen, "Do you accept the dogma of the 7 Ecumenical Synods?"  The response must be "Yes," not, "But..." or "Except that..."

Care to explain what "dogma of the 7 Ecumenical Synods" self-evidently entails? Is every jot and tittle dogma? Why or why not? How about the canons? What interpretation of the canons? Just the definitions? What interpretation of the definitions? And in light of your initial claim, all of these need to be answered without external appeal, without "clarification or footnote."

Offline Basil 320

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #425 on: March 20, 2014, 02:36:13 AM »
If I'm not mistaken, I thought belief in the church's dogma is considered necessary for salvation in the Eastern Orthodox Church. There are no "yea, buts" in regard to dogma. Don't priests commit to acceptance of the dogma of the 7 Ecumenical Synods at ordination? I recall too, having seen some time ago, a Service of Holy Chrismation used by ROCOR that asks the catechumen, "Do you accept the dogma of the 7 Ecumenical Synods?"  The response must be "Yes," not, "But..." or "Except that..."

Care to explain what "dogma of the 7 Ecumenical Synods" self-evidently entails? Is every jot and tittle dogma? Why or why not? How about the canons? What interpretation of the canons? Just the definitions? What interpretation of the definitions? And in light of your initial claim, all of these need to be answered without external appeal, without "clarification or footnote."

Disciplinary Canons are not dogma.

Dogma of the Orthodox Church is listed below, per the Ecumenical Synod (Council) from which it was propounded. For my own convenience at this hour, I'm using one source for this information; everything in quotes in this post are from:

"The Complete Book of Orthodoxy,
a comprehensive encyclopedia and glossary of Orthodox terms, theology, history and facts from A to Z."
by George W. Grube.
This book is endorsed by Metropolitan Isaiah of Denver, (GOAA).


"Dogma-the truth of faith and morals which is revealed by God and affirmed by the Church. The faithful are required to believe the dogma proclaimed by the Church Councils and the Fathers of the Church."

"Ecumenical Councils (Summary) ...an assembly of representatives from the entire church, legally convoked, for settling controversies in doctrine, and formulating dogma... The Orthodox Church recognizes seven Ecumenical Councils."

1st Ecumenical Synod- "...The Council at Nicaea decreed that Jesus Christ is truly God, of one substance
                                  with the Father and begotten, not made, from all eternity." It propounded the first
                                  7 articles of the "Symbol of Faith," the Creed.

2nd Ecumenical Synod-"...The Council decreed that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is to be
                                  worshiped and glorified as is the Father and Son." It propounded the remaining
                                  5 articles of the "Symbol of Faith."

3rd Ecumenical Synod-"...The Council of Ephesus decreed that the humanity and Divinity were complete
                                  in Christ, therefore the Virgin Mary was the 'Mother of God;" the Theotokos.

4th Ecumenical Synod-"...The Council decreed that there are two distinct natures in Jesus Christ, Divine and
                                  human" unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably.

5th Ecumenical Synod-"...The Council decreed that Monophysitism was a heretical doctrine."

6th, Penthekte Ecumenical Synod-"...The Council decreed that Christ did indeed have two wills, the human
                                 and divine, with the human being subject to the divine."

7th Ecumenical Synod-"...The Council decreed that the Church should encourage the veneration of icons or
                                 use of images. This veneration is not worship, which is due to God alone
                                 ...Veneration...is, 'Honor paid to the images (which) passes on to that which the image
                                 represents, and one who shows reverence to the image shows reverence to the subject
                                 presented," the prototype.


Of course, it is important to note that these are very shortened summaries of the essence of the decrees, which are far more explicit and explanatory.
                                
                        
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 02:46:36 AM by Basil 320 »
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Offline Nephi

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #426 on: March 20, 2014, 03:34:23 AM »
Disciplinary Canons are not dogma.

Dogma of the Orthodox Church is listed below, per the Ecumenical Synod (Council) from which it was propounded. For my own convenience at this hour, I'm using one source for this information; everything in quotes in this post are from:

"The Complete Book of Orthodoxy,
a comprehensive encyclopedia and glossary of Orthodox terms, theology, history and facts from A to Z."
by George W. Grube.
This book is endorsed by Metropolitan Isaiah of Denver, (GOAA).


"Dogma-the truth of faith and morals which is revealed by God and affirmed by the Church. The faithful are required to believe the dogma proclaimed by the Church Councils and the Fathers of the Church."

"Ecumenical Councils (Summary) ...an assembly of representatives from the entire church, legally convoked, for settling controversies in doctrine, and formulating dogma... The Orthodox Church recognizes seven Ecumenical Councils."

1st Ecumenical Synod- "...The Council at Nicaea decreed that Jesus Christ is truly God, of one substance
                                  with the Father and begotten, not made, from all eternity." It propounded the first
                                  7 articles of the "Symbol of Faith," the Creed.

2nd Ecumenical Synod-"...The Council decreed that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is to be
                                  worshiped and glorified as is the Father and Son." It propounded the remaining
                                  5 articles of the "Symbol of Faith."

3rd Ecumenical Synod-"...The Council of Ephesus decreed that the humanity and Divinity were complete
                                  in Christ, therefore the Virgin Mary was the 'Mother of God;" the Theotokos.

4th Ecumenical Synod-"...The Council decreed that there are two distinct natures in Jesus Christ, Divine and
                                  human" unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably.

5th Ecumenical Synod-"...The Council decreed that Monophysitism was a heretical doctrine."

6th, Penthekte Ecumenical Synod-"...The Council decreed that Christ did indeed have two wills, the human
                                 and divine, with the human being subject to the divine."

7th Ecumenical Synod-"...The Council decreed that the Church should encourage the veneration of icons or
                                 use of images. This veneration is not worship, which is due to God alone
                                 ...Veneration...is, 'Honor paid to the images (which) passes on to that which the image
                                 represents, and one who shows reverence to the image shows reverence to the subject
                                 presented," the prototype.


Of course, it is important to note that these are very shortened summaries of the essence of the decrees, which are far more explicit and explanatory.

You didn't really answer any of my points, but rather just dropped a random of list of what you, or the source you're quoting, believe to be the dogmas of the Councils without explaining how you arrived at them or their interpretations without appealing to anything outside of the Councils themselves.

Offline Basil 320

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #427 on: March 20, 2014, 03:36:24 AM »
Correct. The Ecumenical Synods speak for themselves. My post above, Reply No. 425, is not "a random list" at all; it is a short summary of the decrees of the 7 Ecumenical Synods, the dogma of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 03:40:52 AM by Basil 320 »
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Offline Nephi

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #428 on: March 20, 2014, 03:37:52 AM »
Correct. The Ecumenical Synods speak for themselves.

Lol, just like the Bible speaks for itself. Gotcha.

Offline Samn!

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #429 on: March 20, 2014, 06:08:26 AM »
Quote
5th Ecumenical Synod-"...The Council decreed that Monophysitism was a heretical doctrine."

Umm... that's a pretty wildly misinformed gloss of Constantinople II. In fact, the council was mostly concerned with condemning the semi-Nestorian Three Chapters. It went so far in its clarification of Chalcedon to declare the acceptability of the formula "one incarnate nature of God the Word" when it is properly understood.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #430 on: March 20, 2014, 09:58:22 AM »
Quote
5th Ecumenical Synod-"...The Council decreed that Monophysitism was a heretical doctrine."

Umm... that's a pretty wildly misinformed gloss of Constantinople II. In fact, the council was mostly concerned with condemning the semi-Nestorian Three Chapters. It went so far in its clarification of Chalcedon to declare the acceptability of the formula "one incarnate nature of God the Word" when it is properly understood.

But that can't be.  The councils are self-explanatory and need no clarifications.  Get with it! 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #431 on: March 20, 2014, 10:03:39 AM »
Correct. The Ecumenical Synods speak for themselves.

Lol, just like the Bible speaks for itself. Gotcha.

Based on what they say and how they act, some Orthodox actually do believe that the councils are more dependable than Scripture.  I will not say Basil feels this way, I don't think he does and I don't want to put words in his mouth, but look around you.  :P
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline kyril

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #432 on: March 20, 2014, 01:57:34 PM »
Isn't that just the tiniest  little bit umm, well, you know, heretical?
kyril

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #433 on: March 20, 2014, 02:18:47 PM »
Some advice from the Roman side of the aisle, by Adam DeVille "Some Thoughts and (Unsought) Advice on Holding Church Councils - How the Eastern Orthodox can benefit from the lessons of Vatican II and other Councils". My favorite observation: " There are always shady characters with dodgy motives who manage to show up at councils and make mischief, and one must be on guard against them. Let us hope that—as the legend runs—there is no Arius around who will need a punch in the nose, because in this day and age an image of bishops physically bashing each other would race around the world so fast Facebook and Twitter would likely collapse under the strain, and nobody would talk about anything else."

Perhaps Metropolitans Hilarion of the MP and Elpidophoros of the EP might be tempted?

A good read and some cogent thoughts. http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/3007/some_thoughts_and_unsought_advice_on_holding_church_councils.aspx#.Uys1j3_D8v7

Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #434 on: March 20, 2014, 02:22:19 PM »
Correct. The Ecumenical Synods speak for themselves.

Lol, just like the Bible speaks for itself. Gotcha.

Based on what they say and how they act, some Orthodox actually do believe that the councils are more dependable than Scripture.  I will not say Basil feels this way, I don't think he does and I don't want to put words in his mouth, but look around you.  :P

Yes, that makes no sense.  A council, the Bible, a Church Father - all must be understood in the context of the living breathing Holy Tradition. 

I view the recent edict against certain medical practices as an extension and application of the canon against visiting Jewish doctors, for example.   Perhaps reiki is the "Jewish doctor" of our day.  Hope this makes sense. 

Offline kyril

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #435 on: March 20, 2014, 02:49:42 PM »
@pod... #433,
  It would be 'hilarious' to see an 'epileptic' fight   :-(
kyril

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #436 on: March 20, 2014, 02:53:27 PM »
No disrespect, you understand, but I love 'puntification.'
kyril

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #437 on: March 20, 2014, 03:03:31 PM »
Isn't that just the tiniest  little bit umm, well, you know, heretical?

I think Mor was trying not to -say- it....rather like not needing to know Lemon Curd has eggs....
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline kyril

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #438 on: March 20, 2014, 05:42:14 PM »
th- ay   egg-th ?

Oh, you guyth have a Hithpanic pop. , but not from Thpain !!!
kyril

Offline Opus118

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #439 on: March 23, 2014, 06:59:05 PM »

A good read and some cogent thoughts. http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/3007/some_thoughts_and_unsought_advice_on_holding_church_councils.aspx#.Uys1j3_D8v7

I thought this was a good article. I was going to post it as news but realized at the last second it would likely be posted here as well.
If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline Nephi

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #440 on: March 23, 2014, 07:42:44 PM »
Some advice from the Roman side of the aisle, by Adam DeVille "Some Thoughts and (Unsought) Advice on Holding Church Councils - How the Eastern Orthodox can benefit from the lessons of Vatican II and other Councils". My favorite observation: " There are always shady characters with dodgy motives who manage to show up at councils and make mischief, and one must be on guard against them. Let us hope that—as the legend runs—there is no Arius around who will need a punch in the nose, because in this day and age an image of bishops physically bashing each other would race around the world so fast Facebook and Twitter would likely collapse under the strain, and nobody would talk about anything else."

Perhaps Metropolitans Hilarion of the MP and Elpidophoros of the EP might be tempted?

A good read and some cogent thoughts. http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/3007/some_thoughts_and_unsought_advice_on_holding_church_councils.aspx#.Uys1j3_D8v7

I thought it was interesting and generally good, but the author seems to think it will all be actually started at the council itself and not too aware of the presentation papers etc. Anyway, I thought #6 (if a bit overly optimistic, simply inviting them would be fine) and #9 were good, but #7 and #8 were not so much.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 07:43:34 PM by Nephi »

Offline Opus118

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #441 on: March 23, 2014, 09:16:04 PM »
Some advice from the Roman side of the aisle, by Adam DeVille "Some Thoughts and (Unsought) Advice on Holding Church Councils - How the Eastern Orthodox can benefit from the lessons of Vatican II and other Councils". My favorite observation: " There are always shady characters with dodgy motives who manage to show up at councils and make mischief, and one must be on guard against them. Let us hope that—as the legend runs—there is no Arius around who will need a punch in the nose, because in this day and age an image of bishops physically bashing each other would race around the world so fast Facebook and Twitter would likely collapse under the strain, and nobody would talk about anything else."

Perhaps Metropolitans Hilarion of the MP and Elpidophoros of the EP might be tempted?

A good read and some cogent thoughts. http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/3007/some_thoughts_and_unsought_advice_on_holding_church_councils.aspx#.Uys1j3_D8v7

I thought it was interesting and generally good, but the author seems to think it will all be actually started at the council itself and not too aware of the presentation papers etc. Anyway, I thought #6 (if a bit overly optimistic, simply inviting them would be fine) and #9 were good, but #7 and #8 were not so much.

I thought that if they showed those Coptic humor videos on YouTube, #6 would be a done deal. They are Orthodox.

For #7:     I, despite many posts here, I consider the Roman Catholic Church our allies, and I think it important that they remain so. In regard to Protestants attending, I vote for the QEII and Prince Phillip. I do not know if they are really Protestants, I do not know what Protestants are. They are a mystery only known to God as far as I am concerned (since they do not figure into my life).

I more or less agree with your hesitation about #8, unless someone sways me otherwise.

If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline Nephi

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #442 on: March 23, 2014, 09:37:26 PM »
I thought that if they showed those Coptic humor videos on YouTube, #6 would be a done deal. They are Orthodox.

Never heard of the Youtube videos, but I definitely agree with the bolded. :angel:

Quote
For #7:     I, despite many posts here, I consider the Roman Catholic Church our allies, and I think it important that they remain so. In regard to Protestants attending, I vote for the QEII and Prince Phillip. I do not know if they are really Protestants, I do not know what Protestants are. They are a mystery only known to God as far as I am concerned (since they do not figure into my life).

I definitely have a high view of Roman Catholics (see the thread on their sacraments, etc.), but I'm just not sure how I feel about them being "observer-participants." Observing, sure, but participating? Ehh, they have way too many problems in their Communion for me to want their experts informing ours any more than they already do.

While certain Protestants may be worth inviting to observe, absolutely shouldn't participate, IMO.

Quote
I more or less agree with your hesitation about #8, unless someone sways me otherwise.

#8 just seemed to beating the author's Catholic drum: "just choose a central head of the (Eastern) Orthodox Church already, be it Moscow or Constantinople, and let's get RC-EO union (with the Pope replacing that new central head) over with!"

Offline Opus118

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #443 on: March 23, 2014, 11:22:21 PM »
I thought that if they showed those Coptic humor videos on YouTube, #6 would be a done deal. They are Orthodox.

Never heard of the Youtube videos, but I definitely agree with the bolded. :angel:

Quote
For #7:     I, despite many posts here, I consider the Roman Catholic Church our allies, and I think it important that they remain so. In regard to Protestants attending, I vote for the QEII and Prince Phillip. I do not know if they are really Protestants, I do not know what Protestants are. They are a mystery only known to God as far as I am concerned (since they do not figure into my life).

I definitely have a high view of Roman Catholics (see the thread on their sacraments, etc.), but I'm just not sure how I feel about them being "observer-participants." Observing, sure, but participating? Ehh, they have way too many problems in their Communion for me to want their experts informing ours any more than they already do.

While certain Protestants may be worth inviting to observe, absolutely shouldn't participate, IMO.

Quote
I more or less agree with your hesitation about #8, unless someone sways me otherwise.

#8 just seemed to beating the author's Catholic drum: "just choose a central head of the (Eastern) Orthodox Church already, be it Moscow or Constantinople, and let's get RC-EO union (with the Pope replacing that new central head) over with!"

For the first part there is a thread her called "stuff coptic guys/girls say" that will get you started.

In regard to #7 I would want the RCC observants to advise. Advise from those that have made bad mistakes in the past are the best. It is lunacy not to appreciate their knowledge.

Consider this my intuition and that is possibly totally wrong: I think there are many in the RCC that are logical and that they realize that they dug themselves into a deep hole during the momentary insanity that was Vatican I. They want to get out. One possible passageway is us. We provide the excuse/passageway for backtracking for the sake of reuniting the Church. I see this in posts, I do not really do not know its extent. Only our hierarchs do (hopefully).
If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline Rhinosaur

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #444 on: March 23, 2014, 11:38:38 PM »
I do think it would be good for non-participating observers from other churches to be present.  It could help dispel alot of misconceptions about Orthodoxy and expose many people who otherwise would probably know little to nothing Eastern Christianity.

Offline genesisone

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #445 on: March 24, 2014, 09:31:50 AM »
I do think it would be good for non-participating observers from other churches to be present.  It could help dispel alot of misconceptions about Orthodoxy and expose many people who otherwise would probably know little to nothing Eastern Christianity.
What would you think about the idea of inviting "non-participating observers from other churches to be present" at a parish council meeting?

Without some familiarity with the background, the history, and the perspective of Orthodox ways of doing things, I would think that little would be accomplished in such a move. There are other venues to which non-Orthodox can be invited. Perhaps even a final session where summaries and decisions are presented.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #446 on: March 24, 2014, 09:57:51 AM »
I do think it would be good for non-participating observers from other churches to be present.  It could help dispel alot of misconceptions about Orthodoxy and expose many people who otherwise would probably know little to nothing Eastern Christianity.
What would you think about the idea of inviting "non-participating observers from other churches to be present" at a parish council meeting?

Without some familiarity with the background, the history, and the perspective of Orthodox ways of doing things, I would think that little would be accomplished in such a move. There are other venues to which non-Orthodox can be invited. Perhaps even a final session where summaries and decisions are presented.

It might spur better behavior at our parish meetings.... ;)

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #447 on: March 24, 2014, 11:50:59 AM »
The Coptic Church is another matter, involving not matters of administration, but of dogma, i.e. the dogma propounded by the 4th Ecumenical Synod (Council). In the past roughly 50 years, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has sponsored pan-Orthodox dialogues with Oriental Church representatives that have resulted in clarification and articulation of the differences in understanding the dogmatic dispute. Not-with-standing the desires of His All Holiness and many in the leadership and others of the Orthodox Church, and the common traditions of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, I don't think the Eastern Orthodox Church can accommodate reconciliation of this dogmatic dispute, because Eastern Orthodox Christians must accept the dogma of the church as propounded by the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils), without clarification or footnotes.

I do have to say that viewing the Ecumenical Councils, or really any council for that matter, as self-evident, self-interpreting, self-explanatory etc. is just a bit wrong.

I agree with you and I think that most participants of the EO-OO consultations would agree. The problem seems to be not with the theologians but with a fear of schisms exploding all over the place. Could you imagine what would happen with folks who stress 100% blind adherence (with no clarifications and footnotes) to man-made calendars and service books?

If I'm not mistaken, I thought belief in the church's dogma is considered necessary for salvation in the Eastern Orthodox Church. There are no "yea, buts" in regard to dogma. Don't priests commit to acceptance of the dogma of the 7 Ecumenical Synods at ordination? I recall too, having seen some time ago, a Service of Holy Chrismation used by ROCOR that asks the catechumen, "Do you accept the dogma of the 7 Ecumenical Synods?"  The response must be "Yes," not, "But..." or "Except that..."

"Man made calendars" are not dogmatic.

You are not mistaken; however, it seems like we are two ships passing each other in the fog of language. I have no doubt that you and I would agree to interpret dogmatic texts in context of previously accepted dogmas; with due consideration to the possibility of expressing the dogma in terminology that may differ on the surface but is understood the same way in its essence; with an appreciation of the principle(s) expressed by the text; and, finally, with humility considering the views on such matters of our hierarchs.

In this matter, there is no question in my mind of the orthodoxy of the Oriental Orthodox because they in essence agree with the Eastern Orthodox dogma. Does it matter if their words that stem from their culture are slightly different? This is also not my own opinion but the opinion of numerous EO theologians who have participated in the EO-OO dialogues.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 11:51:28 AM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline jah777

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #448 on: April 08, 2014, 03:01:34 PM »
A very good article by Met Hierotheos of Nafpaktos concerning this Council.  I sincerely hope that he will be present at the Council, and if he is not, we have serious cause for concern.

Quote

We all have responsibilities in ecclesiastical matters, especially when each Autocephalous Church will deposit their positions and vote uniformly by a single vote, for which we all have a place of responsibility. It is not possible to separate Hierarchs into two categories, those who participate in the process and those who remain on the sidelines and are ignorant of things. As far as I'm concerned, I do not intend to renounce my hierarchical obligations.
---------
It is understood, that because we speak of a Holy and Great Synod, that the terminology of the decisions must be strictly theological and ecclesiastical. The decisions must be coordinated with the whole tradition of the Church, which is not conservative, but traditional, and does not consist in being static, but progressive, within, however, theological and ecclesiastical thought.
--------
The issue is not merely to convene the Holy and Great Synod of the Orthodox Church, but to remain throughout history as Holy and Great, and be a successor to the Seventh Ecumenical Synod, the Synod of 879-880 (recognized by the Seventh Ecumenical Synod as the Eighth Ecumenical Synod), the Synod of 1351 (Ninth Ecumenical Synod) and the Pan-Orthodox Synod of 1848, which should be mentioned, as is done in such great Synods, so as not to seem cut off from previous Synods, but as a continuation to them. If reference to previous Ecumenical and Great Synods does not take place, or if only Seven Ecumenical Synods are reported and the others are omitted, then there will be serious theological and ecclesiastical problems. This is the real challenge not just of history, but of actual ecclesiastical sacred history, which is determined from a theological, ecclesiological and canonical perspective.

Read the whole article here: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2014/04/concerning-synaxis-of-primates-of.html



Offline Nephi

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Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #449 on: April 08, 2014, 03:38:25 PM »
^ I thought that was a good article as well, except for this part:

Quote
This is especially manifested in America - as well as other places - which although is subject to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and all the Clergy, no matter what country of origin they are from, should commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch, however, many other Churches have their own Bishops and established their own national Churches. This is one of the biggest problems of the contemporary Orthodox Church.

Sounds like the Metropolitan's saying that the EP has jurisdiction throughout all the diaspora (including America), and that it's really all the other Churches that are uncanonical. Or am I reading this wrong?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 03:45:11 PM by Nephi »