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Author Topic: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul  (Read 12887 times) Average Rating: 1
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« on: March 07, 2014, 01:53:12 PM »

Each Orthodox Church will be represented by 20 hierarchs.

Information is still in Greek and Bulgarian only.

http://www.amen.gr/article17153
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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2014, 01:53:41 PM »


This is official?
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« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2014, 01:55:58 PM »

Google:

Quote
Note that before the second part of the morning session, during the intermission, the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew had a long discussion in the patriarchal office with Patriarch Kirill of Moscow. - See more at: http://www.amen.gr/article17153#sthash.tpqIwD1c.dpuf

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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2014, 02:04:56 PM »


This is official?

The same information is on the Bulgarian Patriarchal site.

Each Orthodox Church will be represented by 20 hierarchs. Each Orthodox Church will have 1 vote and decisions will be taken unanimously.
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« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2014, 02:12:47 PM »


This is official?

The same information is on the Bulgarian Patriarchal site.

Each Orthodox Church will be represented by 20 hierarchs. Each Orthodox Church will have 1 vote and decisions will be taken unanimously.

Please post more info as it becomes available.
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« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2014, 02:19:36 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present?
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« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2014, 02:25:52 PM »

Google:

Quote
Note that before the second part of the morning session, during the intermission, the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew had a long discussion in the patriarchal office with Patriarch Kirill of Moscow. - See more at: http://www.amen.gr/article17153#sthash.tpqIwD1c.dpuf

Wink

Mor!  It's Greek....I can't make heads or tails out of it!  Wink

I wonder what the two discussed.
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« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2014, 02:36:41 PM »

Google:

Quote
Note that before the second part of the morning session, during the intermission, the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew had a long discussion in the patriarchal office with Patriarch Kirill of Moscow. - See more at: http://www.amen.gr/article17153#sthash.tpqIwD1c.dpuf

Wink

Mor!  It's Greek....I can't make heads or tails out of it!  Wink

I wonder what the two discussed.


Go to theorthodoxchurch.info for English.   It will be held at St Irene's Cathedral in Constantinople. 
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« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2014, 02:52:30 PM »

Will the Latins be invited as 'observers.'?
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« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2014, 02:53:38 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present?
Would they all fit? Would they all even be able to make it?
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« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2014, 02:56:37 PM »


I think laypeople ought to be invited as observers.  Wink

Wouldn't you love to be there?  I'd love to be a fly on the wall.....with a translator next to me. 
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« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2014, 03:14:14 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present?
Would they all fit? Would they all even be able to make it?
They can meet in a stadium if need be. Can 20 people realistically speaks for hundreds? I would imagine that after a decision is reached it will need to be approved by every synod.
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« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2014, 03:15:56 PM »

I'll believe it after it happens.

My biggest concern is that they will try to wreck our fasting disciplines, and last time I checked that is on the agenda.
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« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2014, 03:19:27 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present?

As I read now in romfea 20 was the final decision, they talk for 13 in past conversations


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« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2014, 03:21:17 PM »

I'll believe it after it happens.

My biggest concern is that they will try to wreck our fasting disciplines, and last time I checked that is on the agenda.

How? I haven't heard about that.
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« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2014, 03:24:08 PM »

Any idea what this 'great council' could address?
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« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2014, 03:24:17 PM »

What Patriarch Kirill of Moscow asks for the Holy and Great Council

http://www.agioritikovima.gr/rosiki/40216-ti-zitie-o-pat

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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2014, 03:27:48 PM »

Wouldn't you love to be there?  I'd love to be a fly on the wall.....with a translator next to me. 

Would the translator be, like, a cricket or something?

I wonder if the Oriental Orthodox will be invited as observers...or on the agenda!
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« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2014, 03:32:59 PM »

I wonder if the Oriental Orthodox will be invited as observers...or on the agenda!

If Patriarch John X has anything to say about it they'll at least be on the agenda. He's spoken very emphatically about the need to immediately act on the dialogue statements before, including once IIRC when visiting Patriarch Bartholomew.
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2014, 03:33:06 PM »

I'll believe it after it happens.

My biggest concern is that they will try to wreck our fasting disciplines, and last time I checked that is on the agenda.

If they really are going to operate by consensus, I seriously doubt such a proposal would pass.
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« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2014, 03:43:22 PM »

I'll believe it after it happens.

My biggest concern is that they will try to wreck our fasting disciplines, and last time I checked that is on the agenda.

If they really are going to operate by consensus, I seriously doubt such a proposal would pass.

Although I actually like the Syriac Orthodox revision of the fasting discipline for the Nativity, the Dormition and the Apostles fast, I also doubt that any major changes are going to happen.
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« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2014, 03:52:24 PM »

and another link
http://www.agioritikovima.gr/oikpa/40158-met-empodi%CE%BFn-i
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« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2014, 04:06:31 PM »

and another link
http://www.dogma.gr/default.php?pname=Article&art_id=5548&catid=1

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and another link
http://www.dogma.gr/default.php?pname=Article&art_id=5538&catid=1
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« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2014, 04:41:19 PM »

I'll believe it after it happens.

My biggest concern is that they will try to wreck our fasting disciplines, and last time I checked that is on the agenda.
Even with all of the churches having to approve the decisions made? I highly doubt it. We have mostly conservative hierarchs and I'm sure they know better than you or I on such matters.

Pray for our beloved hierarchs!
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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2014, 04:49:19 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present?  

Honestly: Because the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church outnumber the rest combined.

It will be held at St Irene's Cathedral in Constantinople.  

Technically it is the Holy Peace of God, which is "Agia Irini" in Greek.  It is one of a handful of Churches in Constantinople that were dedicated to divine attributes (the most famous being the Holy Wisdom of God, "Agia Sophia").
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« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2014, 04:53:47 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present?  

Honestly: Because the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church outnumber the rest combined.

It will be held at St Irene's Cathedral in Constantinople.  

Technically it is the Holy Peace of God, which is "Agia Irini" in Greek.  It is one of a handful of Churches in Constantinople that were dedicated to divine attributes (the most famous being the Holy Wisdom of God, "Agia Sophia").

Seriously? That's amazing, Hagia Irene has been a concert hall for a while, and a military arsenal before that.

I think the last council to be held there (since Hagia Sophia was built really soon after this church was restored after a fire) was the First Council of Constantinople.
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« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2014, 04:55:39 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present?  

Honestly: Because the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church outnumber the rest combined.

It will be held at St Irene's Cathedral in Constantinople.  

Technically it is the Holy Peace of God, which is "Agia Irini" in Greek.  It is one of a handful of Churches in Constantinople that were dedicated to divine attributes (the most famous being the Holy Wisdom of God, "Agia Sophia").

I am not disputing that each church get one vote but the bishops should be present or how else can they get a consensus. If the 20 agree to something and then a synod of one of the local churches doesn't ratify it then it was pointless to have the council.
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« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2014, 04:55:44 PM »

I'll believe it after it happens.

My biggest concern is that they will try to wreck our fasting disciplines, and last time I checked that is on the agenda.

If they really are going to operate by consensus, I seriously doubt such a proposal would pass.  

Precisely.  The working format of the Council is different than the ancient ones - the ancient councils, the hierarchs traveled with their theologians and helpers and stayed at the site to debate all the points until the council was over, regardless of the time it took (and the costs were covered by the State).  Here, the various committees (with representatives of each of the Churches) are working to draft various position papers that will then be presented for final debate (rather than working from scratch at the sessions).  
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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2014, 04:56:31 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present? 

Honestly: Because the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church outnumber the rest combined.

It will be held at St Irene's Cathedral in Constantinople.   

Technically it is the Holy Peace of God, which is "Agia Irini" in Greek.  It is one of a handful of Churches in Constantinople that were dedicated to divine attributes (the most famous being the Holy Wisdom of God, "Agia Sophia").

Seriously? That's amazing, Hagia Irene has been a concert hall for a while, and a military arsenal before that.

I think the last council to be held there (since Hagia Sophia was built really soon after this church was restored after a fire) was the First Council of Constantinople.

It is one of two Churches still standing in Constantinople from pre-1451 that was never converted into a Mosque.
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« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2014, 04:59:55 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present? 

Honestly: Because the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church outnumber the rest combined.

It will be held at St Irene's Cathedral in Constantinople.   

Technically it is the Holy Peace of God, which is "Agia Irini" in Greek.  It is one of a handful of Churches in Constantinople that were dedicated to divine attributes (the most famous being the Holy Wisdom of God, "Agia Sophia").

Seriously? That's amazing, Hagia Irene has been a concert hall for a while, and a military arsenal before that.

I think the last council to be held there (since Hagia Sophia was built really soon after this church was restored after a fire) was the First Council of Constantinople.

It is one of two Churches still standing in Constantinople from pre-1451 that was never converted into a Mosque.

I had the pleasure of walking through it when I was in Istanbul a few years ago. I couldn't walk into the nave though, only the courtyard & narthex. Most of the mosaics are gone and the walls are bare due to the many earthquakes and the iconoclasts. The only thing you can really see is the iconoclastic cross in the apse.
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« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2014, 05:00:20 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present?  

Honestly: Because the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church outnumber the rest combined.

It will be held at St Irene's Cathedral in Constantinople.  

Technically it is the Holy Peace of God, which is "Agia Irini" in Greek.  It is one of a handful of Churches in Constantinople that were dedicated to divine attributes (the most famous being the Holy Wisdom of God, "Agia Sophia").

I am not disputing that each church get one vote but the bishops should be present or how else can they get a consensus. If the 20 agree to something and then a synod of one of the local churches doesn't ratify it then it was pointless to have the council.

One of the key changes is the format - all the Churches will have the various position papers and ideas in advance (rather than walking into a council with a blank slate), so the synods will have a chance to thoroughly discuss things with the reps.  And, of course, they'll be available via telephone.

I'm not sure that stating "20 hierarchs from each Church" is implying "none others will be present."  Who knows?  If I were a bishop and not a voting member, I'd pay from my own funds (i.e. not diocesan) to be there for the council, even if I had to hang out in the plaza outside the Church/Palace (since the Church is at present integrated into the larger grounds of Topkapi).
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« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2014, 05:03:52 PM »

Thank you Fr. for the clarification
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« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2014, 05:11:35 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present?  

Honestly: Because the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church outnumber the rest combined.

Which of the attending Churches has the least number of hierarchs?

The way I see it, why not bring however many they have?
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« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2014, 05:29:42 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present? 

Honestly: Because the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church outnumber the rest combined.

Which of the attending Churches has the least number of hierarchs?

The way I see it, why not bring however many they have?

They may (who knows?), but only the 20 will be part of the voting delegation.
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« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2014, 05:45:23 PM »

Is this like Vatican I and II. I mean, is it very very serious important event ? Would we see a new Orthodoxy or something like what happened in Catholicism in Vatican II ?

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« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2014, 05:52:20 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present? 

Honestly: Because the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church outnumber the rest combined.

Which of the attending Churches has the least number of hierarchs?

The way I see it, why not bring however many they have?

They may (who knows?), but only the 20 will be part of the voting delegation.

Effectively, doesn't that mean there will only be 20 bishops from the MP, ROCOR, and OCA combined with the OCA most likely not having a single vote? Will the EP have a means of approving those 20 MP-ROCOR-OCA bishops to grant them voting status? In other words, can EP staffers at the event deny voting rights to certain bishops?
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« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2014, 05:55:17 PM »

Is this like Vatican I and II. I mean, is it very very serious important event ? Would we see a new Orthodoxy or something like what happened in Catholicism in Vatican II ?



No, thank God, it is nothing like Vatican I or II.  By the grace of God this council will never fall into such errors.  They will consider 8 points:

1. Changes to fasting regulations
2.  Impediments to marriage
3.  The calendar
4. What to do about overlapping jurisdictions in the diaspora
5.  Relations with other Christian churches such as Roman Catholics, Old Catholics, Oriental Orthodox, and Anglicans
6. When and how a church receives autonomy
7. Participation in the World Council of Churches
8. Witness to the world on ethical and moral concerns

These were set forth in a 1976 pre conciliar document.  

Two other topics set forth there will not be considered:

9.  How to grant autocephaly
10.  Ranking in the diptychs
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« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2014, 06:06:32 PM »

Is this like Vatican I and II. I mean, is it very very serious important event ? Would we see a new Orthodoxy or something like what happened in Catholicism in Vatican II ?



No, thank God, it is nothing like Vatican I or II.  By the grace of God this council will never fall into such errors.  They will consider 8 points:

1. Changes to fasting regulations
2.  Impediments to marriage
3.  The calendar
4. What to do about overlapping jurisdictions in the diaspora
5.  Relations with other Christian churches such as Roman Catholics, Old Catholics, Oriental Orthodox, and Anglicans
6. When and how a church receives autonomy
7. Participation in the World Council of Churches
8. Witness to the world on ethical and moral concerns

These were set forth in a 1976 pre conciliar document.  

Two other topics set forth there will not be considered:

9.  How to grant autocephaly
10.  Ranking in the diptychs

Phew, because I saw the confusion Vatican II caused to many Catholics and how Catholicism have changed so much that many people felt the need to leave the church*

My only hope of this Council is to become closer and closer with other Christian Churches without giving up our beliefs.

* Change is good for sure, and developing is good indeed, but beliefs are untouchable.

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« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2014, 06:07:25 PM »

I'll believe it after it happens.

My biggest concern is that they will try to wreck our fasting disciplines, and last time I checked that is on the agenda.

You mean you don't want to reduce Eucharistic fasting to an hour and all other fasting limited to just Wednesdays and Fridays of Lent?
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« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2014, 06:08:06 PM »

Is this like Vatican I and II. I mean, is it very very serious important event ? Would we see a new Orthodoxy or something like what happened in Catholicism in Vatican II ?  

I'm not sure how to answer this.  I highly doubt that you'd see the kind of pivot that happened at either of those councils with us, especially considering the prerequisite for consensus (i.e. unanimous decisions).  
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« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2014, 06:11:33 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present? 

Honestly: Because the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church outnumber the rest combined.

Which of the attending Churches has the least number of hierarchs?

The way I see it, why not bring however many they have?

They may (who knows?), but only the 20 will be part of the voting delegation.

Effectively, doesn't that mean there will only be 20 bishops from the MP, ROCOR, and OCA combined with the OCA most likely not having a single vote? Will the EP have a means of approving those 20 MP-ROCOR-OCA bishops to grant them voting status? In other words, can EP staffers at the event deny voting rights to certain bishops?

I'm presuming that as in days of old each autocephalous Church is free to designate its own representatives regardless of the feelings of the other Churches.  But I do suspect that the only way the OCA is coming to the table is as members of the Patriarchate of Moscow delegation since their claim of autocephaly is indirectly one of the agenda items. 
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« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2014, 06:38:39 PM »

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« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2014, 06:41:47 PM »

Will this be an "ecumenical" council?
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« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2014, 07:07:02 PM »

Will this be an "ecumenical" council?

You'll probably have to wait another 100 years or so to find out. Maybe even 500 since two, much bigger councils haven't even been declared "ecumenical". But a council doesn't need to be "ecumenical" to be accepted.
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« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2014, 07:08:48 PM »

Why 20? Why won't all the bishops be present?  

Honestly: Because the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church outnumber the rest combined.

Which of the attending Churches has the least number of hierarchs?

The way I see it, why not bring however many they have?

They may (who knows?), but only the 20 will be part of the voting delegation.

Effectively, doesn't that mean there will only be 20 bishops from the MP, ROCOR, and OCA combined with the OCA most likely not having a single vote? Will the EP have a means of approving those 20 MP-ROCOR-OCA bishops to grant them voting status? In other words, can EP staffers at the event deny voting rights to certain bishops?

I'm presuming that as in days of old each autocephalous Church is free to designate its own representatives regardless of the feelings of the other Churches.  But I do suspect that the only way the OCA is coming to the table is as members of the Patriarchate of Moscow delegation since their claim of autocephaly is indirectly one of the agenda items.  

As a member of the OCA, I honestly don't care if we are in the council. If things go according to plan, the OCA (hopefully) won't even exist in 2017. With the work of the Assembly, or in spite of a lack of work, I think that the council in 2016 will end with us united in the Americas. We can either use the Assembly to help the process, or be dragged kicking and screaming, but I think it's happening either way.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 07:10:36 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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