Author Topic: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;  (Read 860 times)

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Offline Shlomlokh

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Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« on: March 06, 2014, 06:36:58 PM »
I noticed today in my Greek dictionary that παπαδιά was the word for priest's wife. In my limited American experience in Greek parishes I had always heard the priest's wife referred to as πρεσβυτέρα. Which is used in what context and why? καλή σαρακοστή!

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Offline LBK

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2014, 06:42:16 PM »
I noticed today in my Greek dictionary that παπαδιά was the word for priest's wife. In my limited American experience in Greek parishes I had always heard the priest's wife referred to as πρεσβυτέρα. Which is used in what context and why? καλή σαρακοστή!

In Christ
Andrew

Papadia is less formal than presvytera.
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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 08:21:40 PM »
Is the accent really on the ultima?  Whenever I've heard παπαδιά used, the accent was always on the antepenult. 
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2014, 09:42:40 PM »
Is the accent really on the ultima?  Whenever I've heard παπαδιά used, the accent was always on the antepenult. 
According to my dictionary and Google Translate it's the ultima. Maybe we can get a native speaker to confirm? The Bulgarian cognate is попадия which has an accent on the penultimate. I had never heard of παπαδιά until today. It's neat learning all this linguistic cross-pollination. :)

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Andrew
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2014, 10:36:55 PM »
Definitely on the ultima.  A few of the other Balkan cultures use "Papadia" (instead of Matushka or Khouria or Presvytera).

As LBK mentioned, παπαδιά is much less formal than πρεσβυτέρα.  I prefer the latter (as does my wife) largely because it preserves the ancient title of the priest (presbyter) better than our common practice (calling him "Father" or "priest").
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2014, 11:21:55 PM »
Definitely on the ultima. 

Interesting.  I guess what I've been hearing is a mispronunciation, like "Ma-TOUSH-ka" instead of "MA-tush-ka" (this one really annoys my inner Slav). 
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Offline Nikolaostheservant

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2014, 11:24:55 PM »
whatever, but can anyone tell me what a "klaso papadia" is?

Offline LBK

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2014, 12:51:54 AM »
whatever, but can anyone tell me what a "klaso papadia" is?

If it means what I think it does ....  :P
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2014, 11:01:22 AM »
Definitely on the ultima. 

Interesting.  I guess what I've been hearing is a mispronunciation, like "Ma-TOUSH-ka" instead of "MA-tush-ka" (this one really annoys my inner Slav). 

Don't feel badly. All too often students of Greek seek hard and fast "rules" of grammar. This approach, largely found in most universities, ignores studying HOW the people actually use/used their language. Accents, created in second century A.D. Alexandria, began this attempt at codification. Before then there were none really. Greek was, and to some extent still is, a study in exceptions.
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2014, 11:14:08 AM »
Definitely on the ultima. 

Interesting.  I guess what I've been hearing is a mispronunciation, like "Ma-TOUSH-ka" instead of "MA-tush-ka" (this one really annoys my inner Slav). 

Tell me about it!   :laugh:
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2014, 01:28:04 PM »
Definitely on the ultima. 

Interesting.  I guess what I've been hearing is a mispronunciation, like "Ma-TOUSH-ka" instead of "MA-tush-ka" (this one really annoys my inner Slav). 

Don't feel badly. All too often students of Greek seek hard and fast "rules" of grammar. This approach, largely found in most universities, ignores studying HOW the people actually use/used their language. Accents, created in second century A.D. Alexandria, began this attempt at codification. Before then there were none really. Greek was, and to some extent still is, a study in exceptions.
Wisdom! :p

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Andrew
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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2014, 01:54:02 PM »
Accents, created in second century A.D. Alexandria, began this attempt at codification. Before then there were none really.

When I studied Greek, one of the first lessons was on accent rules.  Supposedly, it was all really easy to figure out and so it was a minor point before moving on to other things.  Well, not for me.  It didn't matter how much time I spent with the book, with the prof, with the TA, with a study buddy, I could not figure out how accents worked.  I learned everything else quite well and, despite being several years removed from consistent use, can still hold my own for my own purposes, but accents are my undoing. 
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Offline Ersaia

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2014, 02:59:56 PM »
we use the word "παπαδιά" usually

"πρεσβυτέρα" is more formal and I have no idea who will use it, it's very unfamiliar for me

in past we had 1 priest and he was lived in my neighborhood, everyone call her παπαδιά, I have no idea about her name but anyone knew her

now, we have 4 priests in my church, I have no idea if they are married

and to finish with that if I ask my 70+ mother what πρεσβυτέρα is she will not know.

klaso=fart, I never heard this word with the papadia word but as I search now I found that in some areas call one insect "κλασοπαπαδιά", the name we use for this insect usually is βρομούσα which it means something with bad smell
http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%92%CF%81%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%83%CE%B1

In greek when you see a ά,ί,ό.έ etc use it, we have the mark for a reason  ;D

Offline augustin717

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2014, 03:02:23 PM »
In Romanian "papadie/-a" means "dandelion". i wonder if there is a link there.
I've just checked and that's the etymology given : Modern Greek/Bulgarian "papadia".
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 03:05:09 PM by augustin717 »

Offline Ersaia

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2014, 03:11:33 PM »
In Romanian "papadie/-a" means "dandelion". i wonder if there is a link there.

from Greek language no
papadia is the wife of papas (priest)

in past they used to make something like this with names also

so Γιώργαινα was the wife of Γιώργος (George)
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2014, 05:01:58 PM »
my inner Slav

Quote of the month.  Thanks for the laugh!
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Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2014, 05:50:51 PM »
I would say that both words are valid. The Greek language is comprised of a common language and upper aristocrat dialect. Lay people from villages commonly use the lower dialect or common language as there form of expression. People in Greece can usually identify social status based on vocabulary used during a conversation. The same actually occurs here in the USA.  I'll give you a perfect example. A few week ago I was jogging in my neighborhood and I came across a neighbor. I kindly waved to say hello and he replied. I see you are out on your daily constitution. I simply replied yes because I knew that constitution meant exercise ritual. Try explaining that to someone from a different social class and you can see where problems can arise. ;)
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Offline LBK

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2014, 06:33:56 PM »
Quote
I see you are out on your daily constitutional.

Fixed it for you.  ;)
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Offline Ersaia

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2014, 06:50:29 PM »
I would say that both words are valid. The Greek language is comprised of a common language and upper aristocrat dialect. Lay people from villages commonly use the lower dialect or common language as there form of expression. People in Greece can usually identify social status based on vocabulary used during a conversation. The same actually occurs here in the USA.  I'll give you a perfect example. A few week ago I was jogging in my neighborhood and I came across a neighbor. I kindly waved to say hello and he replied. I see you are out on your daily constitution. I simply replied yes because I knew that constitution meant exercise ritual. Try explaining that to someone from a different social class and you can see where problems can arise. ;)

This is not the case, at least it's not in 2014 Greece.

Big greek newspaper -> http://www.kathimerini.gr/491669/article/epikairothta/ellada/isovia-sthn-papadia-kai-ston-synergo-ths-gia-ton-fono-toy-ierea
Big greek tv channel -> http://www.skai.gr/news/greece/article/235988/ileia-isovia-gia-tin-papadia-kai-ton-erasti-tis/
another big greek newspaper -> http://www.tovima.gr/society/article/?aid=519483

as you can see they use the word παπαδιά

now let's see this
http://www.romfea.gr/ieres-mitropoleis/22181-2014-02-04-13-37-45
There you can find the πρεσβυτερα, it's an article written from a Metropolite office for a church news site



Offline LBK

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2014, 07:16:45 PM »
I would say that both words are valid. The Greek language is comprised of a common language and upper aristocrat dialect. Lay people from villages commonly use the lower dialect or common language as there form of expression. People in Greece can usually identify social status based on vocabulary used during a conversation. The same actually occurs here in the USA.  I'll give you a perfect example. A few week ago I was jogging in my neighborhood and I came across a neighbor. I kindly waved to say hello and he replied. I see you are out on your daily constitution. I simply replied yes because I knew that constitution meant exercise ritual. Try explaining that to someone from a different social class and you can see where problems can arise. ;)

This is not the case, at least it's not in 2014 Greece.

Big greek newspaper -> http://www.kathimerini.gr/491669/article/epikairothta/ellada/isovia-sthn-papadia-kai-ston-synergo-ths-gia-ton-fono-toy-ierea
Big greek tv channel -> http://www.skai.gr/news/greece/article/235988/ileia-isovia-gia-tin-papadia-kai-ton-erasti-tis/
another big greek newspaper -> http://www.tovima.gr/society/article/?aid=519483

as you can see they use the word παπαδιά

now let's see this
http://www.romfea.gr/ieres-mitropoleis/22181-2014-02-04-13-37-45
There you can find the πρεσβυτερα, it's an article written from a Metropolite office for a church news site




In the past 20 years or so, there has been a shift in standard Greek towards what would once have been considered vernacular. Declensions and vocabulary has changed to the "lower" forms from the "higher" form, leading to an unfortunate and unnecessary dumbing-down of the language. This "higher" form I'm referring to is not katharevousa, I might add.
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Offline Ersaia

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2014, 07:48:36 AM »
I don't think it's 20 years. I finish the school on 1993, the only changes I can see from then is some attempts to simplify the orthography to some words. So the τραίνο (train) now accepted as τρένο and ντοκυμαντέρ (documentary) accepted as ντοκιμαντέρ.
The other big problem for the new generation is the "greeklish" they wrote greek with latin alphabet because of the computers and chat.

The only change I have seen in my life was the monotonic when I start the school, we had polytonic only in my first year on school. This happen the first years of 80's

(Btw I live in a big city all my life, in villages when I was child they talk their local languages and they are very different from modern greek in so many ways)

Offline LBK

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2014, 08:06:23 AM »
I don't think it's 20 years. I finish the school on 1993, the only changes I can see from then is some attempts to simplify the orthography to some words. So the τραίνο (train) now accepted as τρένο and ντοκυμαντέρ (documentary) accepted as ντοκιμαντέρ.
The other big problem for the new generation is the "greeklish" they wrote greek with latin alphabet because of the computers and chat.

The only change I have seen in my life was the monotonic when I start the school, we had polytonic only in my first year on school. This happen the first years of 80's

(Btw I live in a big city all my life, in villages when I was child they talk their local languages and they are very different from modern greek in so many ways)

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

A generation ago, the Ministry of Defense was called Υπουργείο Εθνικής Αμύνης (Ypourgeio Ethnikis Amynis). The standard use now is Υπουργείο Εθνικής ΄Αμυνας (Ypourgeio Ethnikis Amynas). Amynas was previously the vernacular, or "common" form, and regarded as too "low" for official or standard use.

Other examples of this include the changing of word endings to "lower" forms, such as -ιον (-ion) becoming -ι (-i).
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Offline Ersaia

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2014, 09:24:45 AM »
the (-ion) belongs to katharevousa yes they change this but not the last 20 years, I never learn to use the words in this form and I am almost 40.

I have no idea why they change the Αμύνης but we use this form of the word because we connect it with our modern history. This song can considered as "low" because it is a traditional rebetico song (rebetica was once forbidden), most rebetico-people were illiterate then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzmOsMXCmx4

I continue use the word Αμύνης for the ministry (but they change names for the minitries all the time) and as you can see I choose a video with children

Old Greek   
ονομαστική   ἄμυνα
γενική    ἀμύνης
δοτική   ἀμύνῃ
αιτιατική   ἄμυναν
κλητική   ἄμυνα

Modern Greek
ονομαστική   άμυνα
γενική   άμυνας / αμύνης (κ. λόγ.)
δοτική   αμύνη (λόγ.)
αιτιατική   άμυνα / άμυναν (λόγ.)
κλητική   άμυνα

Offline LBK

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2014, 09:27:38 AM »
Quote
the (-ion) belongs to katharevousa yes they change this but not the last 20 years, I never learn to use the words in this form and I am almost 40.

I am older than you by quite a few years.  :)
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Πρεσβυτέρα ή παπαδιά;
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2014, 09:37:04 AM »
Quote
I see you are out on your daily constitutional.

Fixed it for you.  ;)
Thanks.  ;D
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.