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Author Topic: The ROCOR WRV does still exist, yes?  (Read 4409 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 05, 2014, 12:22:41 AM »

I'm just checking, because I thought it still existed after the thing with Bishop Jerome, but in my reading about Continuing Anglicanism I discovered that one jurisdiction, the Anglican Province of America, actually now has a Vicariate for former Western Orthodox who fled there after ROCOR, as they put it, "abolished" its Western Rite Vicariate. So could someone verify that it still exists?
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2014, 12:29:11 AM »

I think it still exists, it is much smaller and more supervised than it was. Not all the WR priests in ROCOR from the Vicariate left the Church.
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2014, 01:23:56 AM »

There is now a Western Rite 'Community' under the omophorion of Met. +HILARION. The Vicariate as such no longer exists but the Western Rite has not disappeared from the ROCOR.
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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2014, 02:05:53 AM »

I think it still exists, it is much smaller and more supervised than it was. Not all the WR priests in ROCOR from the Vicariate left the Church.

Much smaller? How many left?
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2014, 02:47:22 AM »

I think it still exists, it is much smaller and more supervised than it was. Not all the WR priests in ROCOR from the Vicariate left the Church.

Much smaller? How many left?

According to Fr Aidan, only one priest had left (I'm guessing Fr Novak, who is now in the APA Western Rite Vicariate [is it just me or is that redundant? Like GOARCH offering an Eastern Rite Vicariate?]) as of December 2013: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/2013/12/update-long-overdue.html.
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2014, 03:53:36 AM »

Fr. Anthony Bondi left too but thinking of laymen too. We're any of the missions closed or something?
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2014, 01:10:49 PM »

According to Fr Aidan, only one priest had left (I'm guessing Fr Novak, who is now in the APA Western Rite Vicariate [is it just me or is that redundant? Like GOARCH offering an Eastern Rite Vicariate?]) as of December 2013: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/2013/12/update-long-overdue.html.

His parish was received into ROCOR for only half a year before leaving for APA?
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« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2014, 03:24:36 AM »

According to Fr Aidan, only one priest had left (I'm guessing Fr Novak, who is now in the APA Western Rite Vicariate [is it just me or is that redundant? Like GOARCH offering an Eastern Rite Vicariate?]) as of December 2013: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/2013/12/update-long-overdue.html.

His parish was received into ROCOR for only half a year before leaving for APA?

I think it's more like his parish was received into ROCOR for only a few days before leaving for APA. I can't be too sure about the chronology of the actual departure, but given that his parish had just been received into ROCOR before the news about the disbanding of the vicariate and the fact that he was announcing a "Western Rite Vicariate under the APA" by December (and I just found an item on the Holy Cross website about "restoring the Western Rite Vicariate" from October of 2013 here: http://www.holycrossomaha.net/news.html), something that seems would take a few months administrative negotiation. My guess would be that Fr Novak was one of the priests whose ordination was under review. The fact that he left so quickly, and would view a particular rite to be more important than the Church (while acknowledging that it must have seemed like a bit of a bait-and-switch to have been received into the Church only to have one's ordination under review) shows, I believe, the very type of problem that led to the disbanding of the Vicariate (ROCOR) to begin with.
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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2014, 01:30:01 PM »

who is now in the APA Western Rite Vicariate [is it just me or is that redundant? Like GOARCH offering an Eastern Rite Vicariate?]
I think the difference is that they still celebrate the liturgy according to the Orthodox revisions of the Western Rite, as opposed to the ordinary BCP used by the rest of the APA, which includes the Filioque, etc.
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« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 08:29:51 PM »

As stated earlier, the vicariate structure is gone, but a "community" still exists.

Most missions/parishes still exist. The main difference now is that, much like the Antiochian WR parishes/missions, they are not growing as fast. The "momentum" is lost. Trust and confidence is lost. What to do...I do not know.

I see serious problems in both western rite orthodoxy and eastern rite catholicism for their future stability and growth. They are here for now, will they be there forever , in the USA specifically, I do not know. Of course in eastern europe and western asia the eastern catholics will survive, but in the USA, who knows. Many eastern rite catholic churches under rome in the americas also are growing slowly and losing parishioners. Now that most RC's have more availability to latin masses, the incentive the byzantine rite once offered is not as strong. Additionally the bishops of the rusyn byzantine rite catholic church, not only leave much to be desired, but they have in recent years introduced various liberal liturgical ideas that dont exist in any orthodox churches not in communion with Rome.

It is too complicated. Only God knows the future.

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« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2014, 08:44:05 PM »

As stated earlier, the vicariate structure is gone, but a "community" still exists.

Most missions/parishes still exist. The main difference now is that, much like the Antiochian WR parishes/missions, they are not growing as fast. The "momentum" is lost. Trust and confidence is lost. What to do...I do not know.

I see serious problems in both western rite orthodoxy and eastern rite catholicism for their future stability and growth. They are here for now, will they be there forever , in the USA specifically, I do not know. Of course in eastern europe and western asia the eastern catholics will survive, but in the USA, who knows. Many eastern rite catholic churches under rome in the americas also are growing slowly and losing parishioners. Now that most RC's have more availability to latin masses, the incentive the byzantine rite once offered is not as strong. Additionally the bishops of the rusyn byzantine rite catholic church, not only leave much to be desired, but they have in recent years introduced various liberal liturgical ideas that dont exist in any orthodox churches not in communion with Rome.

It is too complicated. Only God knows the future.



Sadly, the Russian Byzantine Catholic Churches here in America are placed under the local Roman Catholic bishop who often treats them more like orphans. Russian Catholics do not have a patriarch due to the Russian-Vatican agreement with the soviets.  

While it is true that a lot of Eastern Catholics are either joining the Latin Rite to take advantage of the parochial school discounts, or they have joined the Orthodox Church, it works both ways. I know some Orthodox Christians who have joined the Roman Catholic Church solely because they wanted the Roman Catholic parochial school discount, and their children preferred the Mass in English rather than the Divine Liturgy in Greek. In addition, their children wanted to blend in and be "an American." Here in the Los Angeles Archdiocese, Catholic schools allow Greek Orthodox children to receive "First Holy Communion" and to partake in confirmation when they have already received the Sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, Chrismation, and Holy Communion) when they were christened as a baby.
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2014, 10:41:25 PM »

Yes, for all the challenges that western rite orthodoxy has, it does have two advantages over the eastern catholic churches in the USA.
Those advantages are, firstly, over time more and more westerners become byzantine rite orthodox bishops and part of byzantine rite churches, this puts the odds of favour toward the western rite over time to be higher and higher. The second advantage is that even though most western rite churches and missions grow extremely slowly, or barely grow at all, what is also important is that, they tend to stay about the same size. As long as no one suppresses them, chances are they will be here for many decades, not necessarily growing, but surviving and happily serving an important role. Simply surviving is important, because it means that there is still hope for them to flourish in the future. Under the right circumstances, with more pro-western rite bishops, the day when they have prosperity and their own bishopric may eventually dawn.
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« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2014, 09:08:54 AM »

Yes, for all the challenges that western rite orthodoxy has, it does have two advantages over the eastern catholic churches in the USA.
Those advantages are, firstly, over time more and more westerners become byzantine rite orthodox bishops and part of byzantine rite churches, this puts the odds of favour toward the western rite over time to be higher and higher. The second advantage is that even though most western rite churches and missions grow extremely slowly, or barely grow at all, what is also important is that, they tend to stay about the same size. As long as no one suppresses them, chances are they will be here for many decades, not necessarily growing, but surviving and happily serving an important role. Simply surviving is important, because it means that there is still hope for them to flourish in the future. Under the right circumstances, with more pro-western rite bishops, the day when they have prosperity and their own bishopric may eventually dawn.

There are a great many Catholic of a traditional mindset who are quite anxious at some of the things going on in the Catholic Church right now.  Depending on what happens at our upcoming Synod on the Family, etc. things could get ugly.  I know more than a few who have started to doubt the Catholic Church due to the actions of Pope Francis, and the men he has put into key positions, many of whom are open modernists.  It would not be terribly surprising for some of those to make the decision to convert should things continue on their current trajectory.  Many of those would be deeply attached to Western liturgical forms, and prayer.  If there were WR Parishes close by, that might serve to increase their numbers, and foster growth in the future, as most traditional Catholics tend to have multiple children. 

Just a thought. 

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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2014, 10:49:27 AM »

Even if there are still WR churches in ROCOR, I had felt that the ROCOR Holy Synod on July 10, 2013 made it very clear that major changes were expected in the Western Rites Vicariate. Some of the more pointed decisions were

"1) To halt the ordination of new clergymen for parishes adhering to the Western Rite.

7) To establish a commission to examine the means of integrating clergymen and communities of the Western Rite into the liturgical life of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Cool To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite.

9) To emphasize our adherence to the rules and traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church in general and of the Russian Orthodox Church in particular."

At least for me, all of these decisions point out to a strategic move to easternize the Western Rite.
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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 11:03:35 AM »

Even if there are still WR churches in ROCOR, I had felt that the ROCOR Holy Synod on July 10, 2013 made it very clear that major changes were expected in the Western Rites Vicariate. Some of the more pointed decisions were

"1) To halt the ordination of new clergymen for parishes adhering to the Western Rite.

7) To establish a commission to examine the means of integrating clergymen and communities of the Western Rite into the liturgical life of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Cool To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite.

9) To emphasize our adherence to the rules and traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church in general and of the Russian Orthodox Church in particular."

At least for me, all of these decisions point out to a strategic move to easternize the Western Rite.
Which Im not surprised, but I am saddened.
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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2014, 03:39:18 PM »

Yet those decisions have not entirely materialized...perhaos in 6 monthes more will be known if they do.

Jwinch, your speculation has basis in truth but it seems to me to be an unlikely theory.

#1 Because there are not many western rite churches around.

#2 Because there are a number of instances a degree of cultural and liturgical incompatibility. IE little use of latin,  ex-protestant ministers/ex-protestant congregations who have a "low mass mentality" (liturgical minimalism). For example many do NOT like to pray the rosary.

#3 Odd as it may be, many Roman Catholics attached to the latin mass are in particular ways theologically the arch-nemesis of the Orthodox. Liturgically they are their friend, but not necessarily otherwise. Many have the most anti-pathy toward the Eastern Orthodox of anyone I have ever met, even if they do respect the byzantine liturgies. This is because they have often an attachment to the the older latin teachings and customs that have divided Roman Catholics from the Orthodox for centuries and refuse to let go of them. So one could also say that many of them are the least likely to ever convert.

My experience is that the average roman catholic who attends the average parish with the 1973 liturgy is more likely to be open to become Eastern Orthodox because they are less knowledgeable about their faith, therefore they have less to lose, as they never knew as much in the first place. The little customs they cant keep as Orthodox that the others refuse to let go of, they may not mind. While it does happen that those labeled "traditional" Roman Catholics do become Orthodox at times, they are more of an unique exception than something normal. Often times they are the people who love patristics more than they love st. thomas aquinas scholasticism. If you love the developments of the first millenium latin church more than the second and have a conservative liturgical ethos, you're going to have a sympathy for the Orthodox whatever kind of catholic you are.

Yes, Jwinch, under the right circumstances what you're saying could happen, as each western rite church is unique. However, its more likely they'll end up in the byzantine rite. Otherwise, the most likely possibility is that they will end up in some form of Roman Catholic church instead...schismatic or not.
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« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2014, 03:59:01 PM »

Yet those decisions have not entirely materialized...perhaos in 6 monthes more will be known if they do.

Jwinch, your speculation has basis in truth but it seems to me to be an unlikely theory.

#1 Because there are not many western rite churches around.

#2 Because there are a number of instances a degree of cultural and liturgical incompatibility. IE little use of latin,  ex-protestant ministers/ex-protestant congregations who have a "low mass mentality" (liturgical minimalism). For example many do NOT like to pray the rosary.


But yes, Jwinch, under the right circumstances what you're saying could happen, as each western rite church is unique. However, its more likely they'll end up in the byzantine rite. Otherwise, the most likely possibility is that they will end up in some form of Roman Catholic church instead...schismatic or not.


It is possible that you are correct.  However, I would not be surprised to see some movement.  For many Traditional Catholics, sedevacantism is an untenable theological position.  It is more likely, and I have talked to many who feel this way, that the conclusion would be that the Catholic Church had strayed, and was therefore not the true Church. 
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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2014, 04:19:41 PM »

Quote
Outside the USA and in one or two places in Western Europe, Sedevacantism has NO followers. The Movement is unsustainable. Most adherents would rather be hermits, unwilling to be contacted or be contactable - a sociological fact which could lead to their demise over the next 3 generations. To claim that they're the remnants of the Faith may be a comforting thought for themselves, but street smarts still need to be applied.

Yes, precisely, jwinch. This is true that if you do not want to be Roman Catholic, but still want to be "catholic" of some kind with valid sacraments and legitimacy, their is hardly any options. As I always say, Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are the only two sensible options.  So, I agree, it could happen. There is potential.  

The continuing anglicans churches that severed from the majority, some of whom describe themselves as catholic, occasionally find appeal, just as a LONG time ago the "old catholics" did, but always they have certain protestant heresies remaining amongst their "bishops" who often have questionable apostolic succession (if any!).


However, it seems to me that the majority of conservative leaning Roman Catholics, and the clergy who support them, who have a great amount of power in the church are going to use whatever weight they have to overturn any overly innovative heretically suspicious doctrines turning up in upcoming synods. Whether the pontificate of His Holiness, Francis actually amounts to the horrors of doctrinal modernism some fear it could is unknown, I for know think it to be unlikely. Yet many Roman Catholics are very nervous about him and preparing for the worst, even as others seem to find him appealing for both good and bad reasons. Only the Holy Trinity knows the future.
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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2014, 04:26:03 PM »

Quote
Outside the USA and in one or two places in Western Europe, Sedevacantism has NO followers. The Movement is unsustainable. Most adherents would rather be hermits, unwilling to be contacted or be contactable - a sociological fact which could lead to their demise over the next 3 generations. To claim that they're the remnants of the Faith may be a comforting thought for themselves, but street smarts still need to be applied.

Yes, precisely, jwinch. This is true that if you do not want to be Roman Catholic, but still want to be "catholic" of some kind with valid sacraments and legitimacy, their is hardly any options. As I always say, Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are the only two sensible options.  So, I agree, it could happen. There is potential.  

The continuing anglicans churches that severed from the majority, some of whom describe themselves as catholic, occasionally find appeal, just as a LONG time ago the "old catholics" did, but always they have certain protestant heresies remaining amongst their "bishops" who often have questionable apostolic succession (if any!).


However, it seems to me that the majority of conservative leaning Roman Catholics, and the clergy who support them, who have a great amount of power in the church are going to use whatever weight they have to overturn any overly innovative heretically suspicious doctrines turning up in upcoming synods. Whether the pontificate of His Holiness, Francis actually amounts to the horrors of doctrinal modernism some fear it could is unknown, I for know think it to be unlikely. Yet many Roman Catholics are very nervous about him and preparing for the worst, even as others seem to find him appealing for both good and bad reasons. Only the Holy Trinity knows the future.

I highly doubt any major new decisions will come out of the council on family life. Humanae Vitae was supposed to change everything and it didn't. I suspect the same thing will happen here.
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2014, 04:39:33 PM »

Quote
Outside the USA and in one or two places in Western Europe, Sedevacantism has NO followers. The Movement is unsustainable. Most adherents would rather be hermits, unwilling to be contacted or be contactable - a sociological fact which could lead to their demise over the next 3 generations. To claim that they're the remnants of the Faith may be a comforting thought for themselves, but street smarts still need to be applied.

Yes, precisely, jwinch. This is true that if you do not want to be Roman Catholic, but still want to be "catholic" of some kind with valid sacraments and legitimacy, their is hardly any options. As I always say, Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are the only two sensible options.  So, I agree, it could happen. There is potential.  

The continuing anglicans churches that severed from the majority, some of whom describe themselves as catholic, occasionally find appeal, just as a LONG time ago the "old catholics" did, but always they have certain protestant heresies remaining amongst their "bishops" who often have questionable apostolic succession (if any!).


However, it seems to me that the majority of conservative leaning Roman Catholics, and the clergy who support them, who have a great amount of power in the church are going to use whatever weight they have to overturn any overly innovative heretically suspicious doctrines turning up in upcoming synods. Whether the pontificate of His Holiness, Francis actually amounts to the horrors of doctrinal modernism some fear it could is unknown, I for know think it to be unlikely. Yet many Roman Catholics are very nervous about him and preparing for the worst, even as others seem to find him appealing for both good and bad reasons. Only the Holy Trinity knows the future.


I have corresponded with a few Catholics from around the globe. In France, Germany, the UK, Spain, Italy, and Australia, Traditional Catholics are very divided. With Pope Benedict's failed attempt to achieve reunion with the SSPX, it has once again split into several new factions. From what I am learning, several new groups from the SSPX have reunited with Rome, but they are required to believe in the documents of Vatican II. The main group of the SSPX is further reduced because there is another faction (The Resistance) that is following Bishop Williamson.

Not surprisingly, there is an additional faction from the SSPX that is not in communion with Rome, the SSPX, or Bishop Williamson. These people along with a few priests are without a bishop from what I have learned and worship in their homes using a typica-like service for Sundays if there is no priest available, and follow the Liturgy of the Hours (Matins, Lauds, Vespers & Compline). Although they do not consider themselves to be sedevacantists, in actuality they have become such.

None of these folks from the SSPX are likely to convert to Byzantine Eastern Catholics because the Byzantines must also believe in Vatican II and follow the New Code of Canon Law for Eastern Catholic Churches. Neither are they likely to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy.  They would not like the Antiochian Western Rite as Antiochians use a Mass that is largely adapted and derived from the Anglican Book of Common Prayers. There may be a few WO Antiochians that celebrate the Latin form of the Mass (I think St. Augustine in Denver does). That is the only parish that could possibly draw members of the SSPX or their splinter groups.
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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2014, 06:09:44 PM »

Quote
Outside the USA and in one or two places in Western Europe, Sedevacantism has NO followers. The Movement is unsustainable. Most adherents would rather be hermits, unwilling to be contacted or be contactable - a sociological fact which could lead to their demise over the next 3 generations. To claim that they're the remnants of the Faith may be a comforting thought for themselves, but street smarts still need to be applied.

Yes, precisely, jwinch. This is true that if you do not want to be Roman Catholic, but still want to be "catholic" of some kind with valid sacraments and legitimacy, their is hardly any options. As I always say, Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are the only two sensible options.  So, I agree, it could happen. There is potential.  

The continuing anglicans churches that severed from the majority, some of whom describe themselves as catholic, occasionally find appeal, just as a LONG time ago the "old catholics" did, but always they have certain protestant heresies remaining amongst their "bishops" who often have questionable apostolic succession (if any!).


However, it seems to me that the majority of conservative leaning Roman Catholics, and the clergy who support them, who have a great amount of power in the church are going to use whatever weight they have to overturn any overly innovative heretically suspicious doctrines turning up in upcoming synods. Whether the pontificate of His Holiness, Francis actually amounts to the horrors of doctrinal modernism some fear it could is unknown, I for know think it to be unlikely. Yet many Roman Catholics are very nervous about him and preparing for the worst, even as others seem to find him appealing for both good and bad reasons. Only the Holy Trinity knows the future.

I highly doubt any major new decisions will come out of the council on family life. Humanae Vitae was supposed to change everything and it didn't. I suspect the same thing will happen here.

That was before His Holiness Pope (the Blessed Virgin might have felt like calling God a liar) Francis, and his council of 8 modernists.  Not to mention the applause he gave to the heretic Cardinal (Christ's miracles aren't historical fact) Kasper's book on the family, who has been calling for giving communion to Catholics in a state of mortal sin for some time now. 
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« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2014, 06:19:46 PM »

That was before His Holiness Pope (the Blessed Virgin might have felt like calling God a liar) Francis, and his council of 8 modernists.

Huh? 

Anyway, it is probably better to take the discussion about internal RC affairs to another section. 
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« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2014, 07:02:05 PM »

I agree with jwinch, that the average older generation of clergy of the Roman Catholic Church are more inclined to be tempted toward heresy than they were in 1968.  While with the younger generation is less tempted and more inclined to restore traditional teachings in the future.

So, the Roman Catholic Church is at a precipice, whether it will become worse or become better, or perhaps a little bit of both simultaneously until one or the other current prevails. I always think that the traditional/orthodox leaning current will prevail.

I guess yes at this point this conversation is tending to become irrelevant to the western rite of the orthodox church, and we can move past RC politics.

Unlike Maria, I have noticed very little reconciliation with many SSPX clergy to Rome, maybe 2 or 3 examples, such as the redemptorists in scotland, but thatsb all.
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« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2014, 08:07:22 PM »

That was before His Holiness Pope (the Blessed Virgin might have felt like calling God a liar) Francis, and his council of 8 modernists.

Huh? 

Anyway, it is probably better to take the discussion about internal RC affairs to another section. 

If you are curious shoot me a PM.  That way I won't disrupt your thread further. 

Peace, 
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« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2014, 09:05:03 PM »

That way I won't disrupt your thread further.  

Not my thread...our thread.  Wink
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« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2014, 10:15:07 PM »

That way I won't disrupt your thread further.  

Not my thread...our thread.  Wink

+Pax
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« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2014, 10:16:11 PM »

...et bonum.  Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2014, 08:29:11 PM »

Even if there are still WR churches in ROCOR, I had felt that the ROCOR Holy Synod on July 10, 2013 made it very clear that major changes were expected in the Western Rites Vicariate. Some of the more pointed decisions were

"1) To halt the ordination of new clergymen for parishes adhering to the Western Rite.

7) To establish a commission to examine the means of integrating clergymen and communities of the Western Rite into the liturgical life of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Cool To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite.

9) To emphasize our adherence to the rules and traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church in general and of the Russian Orthodox Church in particular."

At least for me, all of these decisions point out to a strategic move to easternize the Western Rite.

I just happened on this discussion...only a couple of comments:

I am one of the four members of the ROCOR Western-Rite Commission established after the abolition of the WR Vicariate last July. Ordinations are continuing - both to rectify those performed in the mass-ordinations which had been forbidden by the Metropolitan, and those found acceptable who were still awaiting ordination. While the points of Synodal decisions mentioned above have been characterized as destructive to the W/R in some quarters - including above - they do not represent any move to easternize the W/R. They are meant to address the many abuses that arose in the Vicariate and bring the W/R clergy out of isolation from the larger Church which was imposed by the former Vicariate leadership. All of our clergy are equal and equally worthy of respect.
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« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2014, 08:34:31 PM »

Even if there are still WR churches in ROCOR, I had felt that the ROCOR Holy Synod on July 10, 2013 made it very clear that major changes were expected in the Western Rites Vicariate. Some of the more pointed decisions were

"1) To halt the ordination of new clergymen for parishes adhering to the Western Rite.

7) To establish a commission to examine the means of integrating clergymen and communities of the Western Rite into the liturgical life of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Cool To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite.

9) To emphasize our adherence to the rules and traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church in general and of the Russian Orthodox Church in particular."

At least for me, all of these decisions point out to a strategic move to easternize the Western Rite.

I just happened on this discussion...only a couple of comments:

I am one of the four members of the ROCOR Western-Rite Commission established after the abolition of the WR Vicariate last July. Ordinations are continuing - both to rectify those performed in the mass-ordinations which had been forbidden by the Metropolitan, and those found acceptable who were still awaiting ordination. While the points of Synodal decisions mentioned above have been characterized as destructive to the W/R in some quarters - including above - they do not represent any move to easternize the W/R. They are meant to address the many abuses that arose in the Vicariate and bring the W/R clergy out of isolation from the larger Church which was imposed by the former Vicariate leadership. All of our clergy are equal and equally worthy of respect.

Thank you.

Do any of the WR priests in the ROCOR use the the more ancient Sarum Rite?
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« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2014, 09:23:04 PM »

Do any of the WR priests in the ROCOR use the the more ancient Sarum Rite?

Fr. Aiden Keller occasionally serves it when he visits a W/R church or other place of worship. But he does not have a blessing to serve W/R at his B/R parish in Austin.

Regarding the comment, "...more ancient Sarum Rite?": more ancient than what? It is a variation of the Roman Rite, along with others. It is certainly long preceded by the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Dialogist (Gregorian Liturgy/Mass) and seems to start to take form in the 11th century, if I remember correctly. It has an interesting history worth looking at, I believe.

The original western Liturgy first approved by the Holy Synod of Moscow in the late 19th Century (c. 1870-ish) was the Gregorian (in Latin) with certain odd changes, such as the addition of the Trisagion.
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« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2014, 09:48:39 PM »

Do any of the WR priests in the ROCOR use the the more ancient Sarum Rite?

Fr. Aiden Keller occasionally serves it when he visits a W/R church or other place of worship. But he does not have a blessing to serve W/R at his B/R parish in Austin.

Regarding the comment, "...more ancient Sarum Rite?": more ancient than what? It is a variation of the Roman Rite, along with others. It is certainly long preceded by the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Dialogist (Gregorian Liturgy/Mass) and seems to start to take form in the 11th century, if I remember correctly. It has an interesting history worth looking at, I believe.

The original western Liturgy first approved by the Holy Synod of Moscow in the late 19th Century (c. 1870-ish) was the Gregorian (in Latin) with certain odd changes, such as the addition of the Trisagion.

Thank you.
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« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2014, 11:02:27 PM »

With respect to Abooneh,

The Salisbury use is one of many local uses of the Roman rite, the point to it's claim of being older is that it represents a tradition that was unaltered by any commission, but grew organically without "liturgical archaeology" or pruning back of particular developments.
What exactly this "St. Gregory" you speak of means I do not know. If it is refers to the post-1550 rite of the Church of Rome, it would most definitely be older than this. Although we can say that for the average Sunday Mass there is little difference, in the various aspects of the liturgy throughout the year, and in various propers one noticed many differences, and overall it is a richer rite.

Now if one "enriches" what is a tridentine ordinary of the mass with various aspects of the pre-tridentine roman rite, of which the Salisbury use is but one typical form of it which was consistently similar throughout all of western europe, than it ceases to have much or ANY difference. (Meaning that all pre-tridentine liturgies, pre-1550 uses of the rite of rome are richer and more similar to each other than those after 1550 which were reformed). Of course this does not take into account the rites of the particular religious orders, such as dominican or carmelite which were left more in tact until the 20th century, but even they were not totally untouched by the council of trent and it's reforms. It WAS the Vatican II of it's day, only much less radical, but the beginnings of the liturgical reform principles and protestant influence can trace it's beginnings to that council.

For certain I would argue that to use the Tridentine rite as it is and name it after St. Gregory the Great/Dialogian to give it the air of being from 1st millenium is deceptive. While the ordinary of the mass is close enough to that from a thousand years earlier, other aspects are not.

" the holy Oecumenical Council of Trent."
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« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2014, 08:33:47 AM »

>The Salisbury use is one of many local uses of the Roman rite, the point to it's claim of being older is that it represents
>a tradition that was unaltered by any commission, but grew organically without "liturgical archaeology" or pruning back
>of particular developments.

None of the above makes the Sarum/Salisbury use "older" than the Gregorian. "...unaltered by any commission..." of course - but altered it was, even if the term "altered" is replaced by "grew organically" or some other semantic work-around. Every rite developed: that's natural as a rite moves across geography and time.

>What exactly this "St. Gregory" you speak of means I do not know.

The Roman liturgy first developed by St. Gregory the Dialogist and which was the basis of almost all of the other variations of the Roman Rite until Trent. Actually, until the present among the Romans, because there have been many more "alterations." Of course after about the ninth century doctrinal errors began to creep in. That's because that rite developed, also. One might say that Trent was a "commission" that altered it...it was not growth, and certainly not natural.

>If it is refers to the post-1550 rite of the Church of Rome

See above...only in that limited sense.

>For certain I would argue that to use the Tridentine rite as it is and name it after St. Gregory the Great/Dialogian
>to give it the air of being from 1st millenium is deceptive.

I would agree completely and, of course, that was not at all my point. After leaving the Church (and to a lesser extent before), the rites in use in the west gradually became more and more heterodox/heretical and unacceptable for Orthodox use.

But we've strayed a long way from "The ROCOR WRV does still exist, yes?"

Protopriest Anthony
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« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2014, 01:00:49 AM »

Protopriest Anthony,

I am honoured and inspired that you are part of the commission. In no way do I claim to be a scholar of liturgy, in no way do I desire to avoid proper humility. At the same time, I have read some books on the topic, and have confidence that I my own knowledge of latin liturgy is greater than the average persons.

You have shown by your response to my comments that you are very authentically knowledgeable in the development of the Roman Rite. You are able to speak about it in a clear educated manner which all may understand. You are a better teacher than I. I have confidence that your influence in the Orthodox Church has been and will be a great blessing. Metropolitan Hilarion has great wisdom as a bishop in guiding his flock.

Thank you for participating here. I believe everyone in this forum appreciates your contribution.

I find myself in complete agreement with your statements. Yet I also recognize that being part of the church requires obedience, beyond too much of our own opinions.

I apologize for straying from the topic.
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« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2014, 05:52:23 PM »

Another late-comer to the discussion here.

I just need to say that it amazes me how nonchalant you guys are about this. I can only imagine (if even that) how much Orthodox PR would capitalize if the Catholic Church did the same (in "reverse" or whatever you want to call it) with respect to a group of Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2014, 07:12:23 PM »

Another late-comer to the discussion here.

I just need to say that it amazes me how nonchalant you guys are about this. I can only imagine (if even that) how much Orthodox PR would capitalize if the Catholic Church did the same (in "reverse" or whatever you want to call it) with respect to a group of Eastern Catholics.

It's not entirely analogous because the ROCOR WRV is not a sui iuris church, was not forced to change rites nor disbanded, and is trying to be managed better instead of letting in every uncatechized vagante that walks in the door and causes scandal (so I gathered from these and other discussions, at least). AFAIK, all that changed really is which bishop the WRV is under.

If the Latin Church cracked down on another Eastern Catholic sui iuris church, then I would most definitely complain, but my response would be more nuanced if they were Eastern Rite Latin Catholics.
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« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2014, 07:32:29 PM »

I'm just checking, because I thought it still existed after the thing with Bishop Jerome, but in my reading about Continuing Anglicanism I discovered that one jurisdiction, the Anglican Province of America, actually now has a Vicariate for former Western Orthodox who fled there after ROCOR, as they put it, "abolished" its Western Rite Vicariate. So could someone verify that it still exists?
Yeah, the Anglicans aren't one for supervision.
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« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2014, 11:07:37 AM »

Another late-comer to the discussion here.

I just need to say that it amazes me how nonchalant you guys are about this. I can only imagine (if even that) how much Orthodox PR would capitalize if the Catholic Church did the same (in "reverse" or whatever you want to call it) with respect to a group of Eastern Catholics.

It's not entirely analogous because the ROCOR WRV is not a sui iuris church, was not forced to change rites nor disbanded, and is trying to be managed better instead of letting in every uncatechized vagante that walks in the door and causes scandal (so I gathered from these and other discussions, at least). AFAIK, all that changed really is which bishop the WRV is under.

If the Latin Church cracked down on another Eastern Catholic sui iuris church, then I would most definitely complain, but my response would be more nuanced if they were Eastern Rite Latin Catholics.

Apparently you haven't heard about the Vatican conspiring to not grant the Russian Catholic Church patriarchal status (Reply #10 above).

Seriously folks, where are the complaints against the Orthodox for not granting WRO -- I mean any WRO -- their own patriarchates??

But having said that, I also want to say that I pretty much agree with your way of thinking. To be honest, it has been several months since I looked into the changes that took place last year in the ROCOR WRV (I'll try to do so today) so it's possible that I have misunderstood or misremembered the extent of last years' changes. If, in fact, it's only a matter of changing the criteria for future admissions, then I take back my last post.
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« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2014, 11:20:13 AM »

Another late-comer to the discussion here.

I just need to say that it amazes me how nonchalant you guys are about this. I can only imagine (if even that) how much Orthodox PR would capitalize if the Catholic Church did the same (in "reverse" or whatever you want to call it) with respect to a group of Eastern Catholics.

It's not entirely analogous because the ROCOR WRV is not a sui iuris church, was not forced to change rites nor disbanded, and is trying to be managed better instead of letting in every uncatechized vagante that walks in the door and causes scandal (so I gathered from these and other discussions, at least). AFAIK, all that changed really is which bishop the WRV is under.

If the Latin Church cracked down on another Eastern Catholic sui iuris church, then I would most definitely complain, but my response would be more nuanced if they were Eastern Rite Latin Catholics.

Apparently you haven't heard about the Vatican conspiring to not grant the Russian Catholic Church patriarchal status (Reply #10 above).

Seriously folks, where are the complaints against the Orthodox for not granting WRO -- I mean any WRO -- their own patriarchates??
Oh?  Who would be a candidate?

There are plenty of EO who do not have their own patriarchate-Ukraine heading that list.

And why is it that the Vatican's Metropolitan of the Italo-Greeks is not the bishop of Rome?
But having said that, I also want to say that I pretty much agree with your way of thinking. To be honest, it has been several months since I looked into the changes that took place last year in the ROCOR WRV (I'll try to do so today) so it's possible that I have misunderstood or misremembered the extent of last years' changes. If, in fact, it's only a matter of changing the criteria for future admissions, then I take back my last post.
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« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2014, 11:43:06 AM »

Seriously folks, where are the complaints against the Orthodox for not granting WRO -- I mean any WRO -- their own patriarchates??
Oh?  Who would be a candidate?

Honestly, I really wouldn't know. But then, I could ask the same question with regard to the original complaint that "Russian Catholics do not have a patriarch due to the Russian-Vatican agreement with the soviets." What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

And why is it that the Vatican's Metropolitan of the Italo-Greeks is not the bishop of Rome?

Well that's an easy one. Another conspiracy, obviously.

Wink
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« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2014, 11:49:37 AM »

But having said that, I also want to say that I pretty much agree with your way of thinking. To be honest, it has been several months since I looked into the changes that took place last year in the ROCOR WRV (I'll try to do so today) so it's possible that I have misunderstood or misremembered the extent of last years' changes. If, in fact, it's only a matter of changing the criteria for future admissions, then I take back my last post.

P.S. However, it does not appear that I was mistaken. E.g.,

"8 ) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite."

is clearly talking about existing WRO parishes, not potential future ones.

(Of course, before going further I want to recognize that there have been some who exaggerated the changes. But that's really beside the point.)
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« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2014, 01:13:45 PM »

Seriously folks, where are the complaints against the Orthodox for not granting WRO -- I mean any WRO -- their own patriarchates??
Oh?  Who would be a candidate?

Honestly, I really wouldn't know. But then, I could ask the same question with regard to the original complaint that "Russian Catholics do not have a patriarch due to the Russian-Vatican agreement with the soviets." What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
heresy spoils the sauce.  Not to mention signing agreements with the Soviets.
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« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2014, 02:38:03 PM »

heresy spoils the sauce.  Not to mention signing agreements with the Soviets.

Agreed (although I'm not too sure what Calvinism, Zwingliism, Mormonism, etc have to do with the discussion Wink).

But the question remains, if the lack-of-a-Russian-Catholic-patriarchate is "due to the Russian-Vatican agreement with the soviets," then what is the lack-of-a-WRO-patriarchate due to?

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« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2014, 03:06:40 PM »

But the question remains, if the lack-of-a-Russian-Catholic-patriarchate is "due to the Russian-Vatican agreement with the soviets," then what is the lack-of-a-WRO-patriarchate due to?

I'm not sure anyone would want a "WRO-patriarchate" since we don't have rite-based churches and overlapping jurisdictions are overwhelmingly considered uncanonical (establishing a specific "patriarchate" for the WRO would enshrine such a state).
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« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2014, 03:14:50 PM »

But the question remains, if the lack-of-a-Russian-Catholic-patriarchate is "due to the Russian-Vatican agreement with the soviets," then what is the lack-of-a-WRO-patriarchate due to?

I'm not sure anyone would want a "WRO-patriarchate" since we don't have rite-based churches and overlapping jurisdictions are overwhelmingly considered uncanonical (establishing a specific "patriarchate" for the WRO would enshrine such a state).

+1

"One city, one bishop."

No phyletism, rite based or otherwise.

The Catholic Church's overlapping Sui juris episcopate a demonstrate that their model of unity in diversity is canonically incorrect.

Each city should have one bishop who oversees all parishes in that region, of whatever rite or ethnic background.   Period.
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« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2014, 03:41:12 PM »

overlapping jurisdictions are overwhelmingly considered uncanonical

Alright, I'll grant you that point. As a matter of fact, it happens that I've noticed many of my fellow Catholics (I spend a lot of time on CAF) being a wee bit too comfortable with overlapping jurisdictions -- particularly those of my fellow Catholics who are quite gung-ho about the importance of being in communion with (under?) the Pope.
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« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2014, 10:11:05 AM »

Regnare,
The WR Vicariate, which was under Bishop Jerome, and Father Anthony Bondi (Now Bishop Bondi, of his own, new Church) was discontinued, and the "Beacon Group" was alledgedly placed in a position of being "homeless", so everyone thought. The information is available on the ROCOR website, if one wishes to read it for themselves. The Western Rite Parishes are now under direct authority of the Metropolitan, and belong to no Diocese.
 Bishop Jerome was stripped of his duties, and "retired", and greatly limited in his abilities to "minister". Anthony Bondi, eventually (within a year) left ROCOR, and formed his own new "Vicariate" and now is Bishop Anthony.
Recently (within the last month) those who survived the events of May and June of 2013, and after much charges and countercharges, and what I would call, downright backbiting by some, have reconciled, and were in the process of going through "Ordination" into ROCOR (not re-ordained as Priests), since the ordinations that took place under Bishop Jerome, were not done individually, but en-mass. This, apparently was a big misunderstanding, with godly men on both sides of the controversy saying that the other gave permission for the mass ordinations, and the other saying he didn't. I would have to say, that since i wasn't there, that there was a gross missunderstanding or misspeaking, or missinterpreting of the discussion between Bishop Jerome and the Metropolitan Hilarion, and leave it at that.
A Priest from Omaha, NE, who had been "leading the charge" to incorporate many WR parishes and Priests into ROCOR, contacted various other Churches, including the Antiochian, and the APA (Anglican Province of America). He ended up convincing many of the dejected group to accompany him in forming a WRV within the APA. APA, at a meeting of Bishops, unanimously agreed to allow this formation of a Western Rite Vicariate within their organization, which would be self governing, and answer to a Laison Priest, appointed by the Arch Bichop of the APA.
Things didn't work out for many and various reasons, and the Omaha Priest, decided not to proceed with the agreement with APA. In the meantime, somehow, all the mudslinging and bantor that went on was forgotten, and now the Beacon Group, and ROCOR are reconciled. I don't know how many for sure are going through the transition, or how many gave up on it, or perhaps went with APA as Anglicans, or perhaps some other group. What is past is past, and no-one will ever know the whole truth of the matter. What is secret for now, eventually comes to light though.
I would say, Pray for all concerned, and God bless ROCOR for allowing more WR Parishes to be under the Blessings and protection of the Orthodox Church. My personal hope, is that the former Anglicans will truly become Orthodox.
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« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2014, 08:59:31 PM »

 
<Recently (within the last month) those who survived the events of May and June of 2013, and after much charges and countercharges,>
<and what I would call, downright backbiting by some, have reconciled, and were in the process of going through "Ordination" into ROCOR>
<(not re-ordained as Priests),>

There is no such thing as "Ordination into ROCOR." The ordinations were *regularized* because they were not canonical. Even the "western-
rite" used was defective. Such "regularization" is relatively common in the Church when there is a question about a previous ordination.

<since the ordinations that took place under Bishop Jerome, were not done individually, but en-mass. This, apparently was a big misunder-
<standing, with godly men on both sides of the controversy saying that the other gave permission for the mass ordinations, and the other
<saying he didn't.

There was no misunderstanding, the mass-ordination had been forbidden when it became know that it was being planned and another to fol-
low later in the fall.

See my original post on March 24, I believe it was, for a few details.

<What is secret for now, eventually comes to light though.

I'm not sure what that comment means. Nothing is being kept secret by the Church, though some information regarding individuals is not being publicized, for
what ought to be obvious reasons.

<My personal hope, is that the former Anglicans will truly become Orthodox.

No need to single out "former Anglicans" because there were "former" other denominational people included. That is certainly the hope every time *anyone*
is joined to the Church. We who receive them will ultimately be judged according to the diligence with which they are prepared and nurtured.

Fr. Anthony
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« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2014, 08:10:13 AM »

Dear V. Rev. Nelson,
I have always understood the word "majority" (as little as 50.000001 %) to be inclusive of others that were not of the same category as the "majority.
I have  spent a great deal of time, traveling, and paying particular attention to the subject of Orthodoxy in Anglicanism. I have read countless websites, postings, letters by various Clergy, including those made by members of ROCOR , including Clergy, and have never heard the term "mass regularizations" used in connection with the events of May of 2013. However, the term "mass ordinations" has been used over and over and over. It will take some time, but I will attempt to recapture the exact quotes from some of them.
I understand and agree with your point made, however, the rest of the fact remains, semantics considered, that "mass ordinations" is what the events of last May are known as by the vast majority.
I have the greatest respect for you and what you are doing, and have no doubt, that you are one who will be elevated to Bishop eventually, God willing. I do believe that the Metropolitan and the ROCOR Bishops were in the right on this matter, and that what is being done now, is the best for all concerned. It is easy to let emotion and loyalties cloud matters, and hopefully all of the hard feelings, and still existing (backbiting comments) on certain websites will be deleted, and the hurtful will become lost to memory and the good will prevail.
God bless.
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« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2014, 01:25:53 PM »

Dear Fr. Anthony Nelson,

Please read the post by Aboona, under the heading of "ROCOR WRV does still exist, yes? Reply # 27, on 3-24-2014, at o8:29:11 PM. Thank you.
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« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2014, 08:47:43 PM »

"Chrismated" wrote:

<(I) have never heard the term "mass regularizations" used in connection with the events of May of 2013.

Neither have I. I did not use that term - I wrote regarding "mass ordinations" and the regularization of those ordinations.
It did not occur to me that my comments would be construed to mean that "mass ordinations" would be resolved by "mass
regularizations." The document that came out of the Synod meeting of last July was quite clear that those ordinands who
were involved in the mass ordination - and were found acceptable/worthy - would have their ordinations regularized. It
would seem somewhat contradictory for the Church to declare mass ordinations not canonical and then to resolve that
problem by some sort of "mass regularizations."

<the rest of the fact remains, semantics considered, that "mass ordinations" is what the events of last May are known as
<by the vast majority.

Yes. I don't believe I wrote anything that would question or contradict that.

<I have the greatest respect for you and what you are doing,

Thank you for the kind words.

Fr. Anthony
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« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2014, 08:54:24 PM »


"Chrismated" wrote:

<Please read the post by Aboona, under the heading of "ROCOR WRV does still exist, yes? Reply # 27,
<on 3-24-2014, at o8:29:11 PM. Thank you.

That was my post - I wrote it.

Fr. Anthony (Aboonah)
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« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2014, 01:39:21 PM »

But the question remains, if the lack-of-a-Russian-Catholic-patriarchate is "due to the Russian-Vatican agreement with the soviets," then what is the lack-of-a-WRO-patriarchate due to?

I'm not sure anyone would want a "WRO-patriarchate" since we don't have rite-based churches and overlapping jurisdictions are overwhelmingly considered uncanonical (establishing a specific "patriarchate" for the WRO would enshrine such a state).

+1

"One city, one bishop."

No phyletism, rite based or otherwise.

The Catholic Church's overlapping Sui juris episcopate a demonstrate that their model of unity in diversity is canonically incorrect.

Each city should have one bishop who oversees all parishes in that region, of whatever rite or ethnic background.   Period.
When we tried that, you guys got St. Alexis Toth because the one bishop refused to let him and his parishoners be their own rite.  Undecided
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« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2014, 01:45:04 PM »

But the question remains, if the lack-of-a-Russian-Catholic-patriarchate is "due to the Russian-Vatican agreement with the soviets," then what is the lack-of-a-WRO-patriarchate due to?

I'm not sure anyone would want a "WRO-patriarchate" since we don't have rite-based churches and overlapping jurisdictions are overwhelmingly considered uncanonical (establishing a specific "patriarchate" for the WRO would enshrine such a state).

+1

"One city, one bishop."

No phyletism, rite based or otherwise.

The Catholic Church's overlapping Sui juris episcopate a demonstrate that their model of unity in diversity is canonically incorrect.

Each city should have one bishop who oversees all parishes in that region, of whatever rite or ethnic background.   Period.
When we tried that, you guys got St. Alexis Toth because the one bishop refused to let him and his parishoners be their own rite.  Undecided

Bishop Ireland was in grievous error.  A bishop should ideally oversee all faithful of all rites within his diocese.   
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« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2014, 01:58:38 PM »

In my opinion, neither the Latin nor Byzantine rite bishops are able to consistently be trusted with overseeing two rites and respecting two or more distinctly different canon laws. Instead both view them as mutually contradictory, thereby assuring perpetual divisions based on culture and nation.

From time to time particular bishops who are either byzantine or latin who do respect the other rite and its canon laws, but when the majority of other bishops work against them their good will becomes ineffective to achieve anything long lasting.

The east and west will not live together and respect each other.

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« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2014, 02:16:07 PM »

+1

"One city, one bishop."

No phyletism, rite based or otherwise.

The Catholic Church's overlapping Sui juris episcopate a demonstrate that their model of unity in diversity is canonically incorrect.

Each city should have one bishop who oversees all parishes in that region, of whatever rite or ethnic background.   Period.
When we tried that, you guys got St. Alexis Toth because the one bishop refused to let him and his parishoners be their own rite.  Undecided

Bishop Ireland was in grievous error.  A bishop should ideally oversee all faithful of all rites within his diocese.   

I'm not sure how well that would work in the RCC, given the historical and present reality that too many Latin bishops (even if not all or the majority) would be unfair, to put it mildly, to their non-Latin flock. IMO it seems the current system they have is out of necessity to prevent Latin dominance over Eastern Catholics in overlapping areas.
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« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2014, 02:24:26 PM »

A bishop should ideally oversee all faithful of all rites within his diocese.   

As a canonical ideal to strive for, yes.  Then again, did the canons envision multi-ritual dioceses?  There has always been local and even regional variation within a rite, but that is dealt with easily enough within the rite.  Did the canons ever anticipate a situation like "Archdiocese of New York" where, in a fully reunited Church, every major rite is represented by sizable communities?  I'm sure, "in those days", people traveled back and forth, but did they set up shop for their own rite or acclimate themselves to the rite of the local Church?  If the latter, which is what I'm presuming, are we ready to assign a "canonical rite" to "canonical territories"? 
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« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2014, 02:33:55 PM »

A bishop should ideally oversee all faithful of all rites within his diocese.   

As a canonical ideal to strive for, yes.  Then again, did the canons envision multi-ritual dioceses?  There has always been local and even regional variation within a rite, but that is dealt with easily enough within the rite.  Did the canons ever anticipate a situation like "Archdiocese of New York" where, in a fully reunited Church, every major rite is represented by sizable communities?  I'm sure, "in those days", people traveled back and forth, but did they set up shop for their own rite or acclimate themselves to the rite of the local Church?  If the latter, which is what I'm presuming, are we ready to assign a "canonical rite" to "canonical territories"? 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the sizable Latin communities in Constantinople before 1182 had their own local Hierarch. 
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« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2014, 02:41:38 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the sizable Latin communities in Constantinople before 1182 had their own local Hierarch. 

What did their pastoral care look like?  Was the EP bi-ritual?  Was there a "vicar"?  Was it enough that the EP had jurisdiction but did not really visit the communities and preside in their services? 

Honestly, I don't know, which is why I'm asking.  It would be interesting to see what precedents for multi-ritual pastoral care have been in place in the past.   
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« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2014, 02:42:44 PM »

+1

"One city, one bishop."

No phyletism, rite based or otherwise.

The Catholic Church's overlapping Sui juris episcopate a demonstrate that their model of unity in diversity is canonically incorrect.

Each city should have one bishop who oversees all parishes in that region, of whatever rite or ethnic background.   Period.
When we tried that, you guys got St. Alexis Toth because the one bishop refused to let him and his parishoners be their own rite.  Undecided

Bishop Ireland was in grievous error.  A bishop should ideally oversee all faithful of all rites within his diocese.   

I'm not sure how well that would work in the RCC, given the historical and present reality that too many Latin bishops (even if not all or the majority) would be unfair, to put it mildly, to their non-Latin flock. IMO it seems the current system they have is out of necessity to prevent Latin dominance over Eastern Catholics in overlapping areas.

It is really a function of how those communities came about.  The documents from Brest guaranteed the Orthodox bishops equal dignity to the Latin ones.  The impetus for this setup came from the Orthodox side because they wanted to preserve their rite, they wanted seats in the Sejm, etc.  In fact, at least for a while the children of an RC and GC were automatically GC as a concession to the GC desire to preserve their ethnos by entering the union rather than succumbing to Latinization entirely.  As the RC acknowledged, this framework for union is not a model to be followed.  It got some union at the expense of fracturing Orthodox communities and set up an administrative model that elevated preservation of an ethnic consciousness as a raison d'être for the rites existence.  Podkarpatska can chime in here but if I recall from the time of the 1646 Union of Uzhhorod until the establishment of the 1771 Eparchy of Mukachevo, at least during much of that time, the Byzantine Catholics were under the RC bishop.  While that is right, the way the union was achieved was flawed and it is this that required the eastern churches to be set up as they were, because the second lung of this two lung church was admittedly an artificially built one.   It was not achieved organically.   The Union of Florence, for all its problems, was probably the last such attempt to achieve organic union.  
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« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2014, 02:45:40 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the sizable Latin communities in Constantinople before 1182 had their own local Hierarch. 

What did their pastoral care look like?  Was the EP bi-ritual?  Was there a "vicar"?  Was it enough that the EP had jurisdiction but did not really visit the communities and preside in their services? 

Honestly, I don't know, which is why I'm asking.  It would be interesting to see what precedents for multi-ritual pastoral care have been in place in the past.   

I don't know either.  But I'd like to.   This will help us understand even how North American Orthodox unity could happen. 

Hopefully someone can help us out.  There were also Greeks in Italy - did they have their own bishops?
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« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2014, 11:27:15 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the sizable Latin communities in Constantinople before 1182 had their own local Hierarch. 

What did their pastoral care look like?  Was the EP bi-ritual?  Was there a "vicar"?  Was it enough that the EP had jurisdiction but did not really visit the communities and preside in their services? 

Honestly, I don't know, which is why I'm asking.  It would be interesting to see what precedents for multi-ritual pastoral care have been in place in the past.   

I don't know either.  But I'd like to.   This will help us understand even how North American Orthodox unity could happen. 

Hopefully someone can help us out.  There were also Greeks in Italy - did they have their own bishops?

Funny thing, as I was reading the thread, the same question occurred to me regarding EO unity in North America. Heck we're supposed to be the same "rite" and we're all worried about it.....let alone Latins and Byzantines....
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« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2014, 10:56:39 AM »

In my opinion, neither the Latin nor Byzantine rite bishops are able to consistently be trusted with overseeing two rites and respecting two or more distinctly different canon laws. Instead both view them as mutually contradictory, thereby assuring perpetual divisions based on culture and nation.

From time to time particular bishops who are either byzantine or latin who do respect the other rite and its canon laws, but when the majority of other bishops work against them their good will becomes ineffective to achieve anything long lasting.

The east and west will not live together and respect each other.

Interesting post. I'm curious to see what Orthodox posters (WRO or otherwise) will say in response.
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« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2014, 12:13:36 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the sizable Latin communities in Constantinople before 1182 had their own local Hierarch. 

What did their pastoral care look like?  Was the EP bi-ritual?  Was there a "vicar"?  Was it enough that the EP had jurisdiction but did not really visit the communities and preside in their services? 

Honestly, I don't know, which is why I'm asking.  It would be interesting to see what precedents for multi-ritual pastoral care have been in place in the past.   

I don't know either.  But I'd like to.   This will help us understand even how North American Orthodox unity could happen. 

That's a good question. If there's never been a thread about it, then I think we should have one.
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« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2014, 01:42:23 PM »

Quote
In my opinion, neither the Latin nor Byzantine rite bishops are able to consistently be trusted with overseeing two rites and respecting two or more distinctly different canon laws
If you are speaking of Rome, then I would agree. If you're talking about Orthodoxy, we have the same canon, same laws, and same bishops. We don't have the problem you see with the "Eastern Catholic" folks.

Quote
The east and west will not live together and respect each other
THIS is the issue that bothers me. I was arguing with someone on facebook about the WRO (her jurisdiction doesnt have any at all in the first place) and she was completely ignorant of a very basic understanding on the "WHY's" of the Western Rite. In the end, she called us every name in the book and claimed we werent Orthodox. The issue alot of folks have is this insistence of one having the be eastern to be Orthodox. Some of these folks the commemorate St. John Maximovich, which I find to be pretty ironic.

PP
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« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2014, 02:33:42 PM »

Some of these folks the commemorate St. John Maximovich, which I find to be pretty ironic.

Do you mean this St John Maximovitch?







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« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2014, 03:53:51 PM »

Is there another St. John Maximovitch I'm unaware of?  Cheesy
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« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2014, 12:17:04 PM »

Quote
If you are speaking of Rome, then I would agree. If you're talking about Orthodoxy, we have the same canon, same laws, and same bishops. We don't have the problem you see with the "Eastern Catholic" folks.

Ah, but that is the very problem, the western rite has a western canon law and the byzantine rite has a byzantine canon law, they are two distinctly different laws, EVEN IN THE EIGHTH CENTURY.

Therefore what you are saying is absolute nonsense.  TO HAVE THE EXACT SAME CANON LAW IS THE ESSENCE OF THE PROBLEM. Having the same bishop for two rites is theoretically possible, thats not the most important issue to me.

I'm in full agreement that there should be MORE HARMONY and LESS DIFFERENCES in the canon laws between byzantines and latins, but I am NOT in agreement that they be identical 100%. Now the present day western rite orthodoxy does allow some differences for certain, but it is inconsistent in what pre-schism customs it accepts and what it does not. For most westerners who know their latin rite history this is not reassuring.

The majority of westerners are uncomfortable taking part in a western rite orthodoxy that denies some legitimate orthodox pre-schism customs (such as multiple ordination at one time) and accepts others (such as anti-doron, which was a latin custom). That is one of the reasons, from a philosophical/cultural point of view why the western rite orthodoxy continues to struggle to attract converts, it lacks the respect for the entire tradition, it only gives bits and pieces.
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« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2014, 12:28:25 PM »

Quote
Ah, but that is the very problem, the western rite has a western canon law and the byzantine rite has a byzantine canon law, they are two distinctly different laws, EVEN IN THE EIGHTH CENTURY
The western rite of Orthodoxy (the one of which I celebrate every Sunday) does NOT have a different canon from the rest of the Orthodox Church. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar or extremely ill-informed.

If you are speaking of a WESTERN canon that Rome has taken for its own after it left the Church, then I will totally agree.

Quote
TO HAVE THE EXACT SAME CANON LAW IS THE ESSENCE OF THE PROBLEM
For Eastern Catholics, yes. For us, it makes us Orthodox. We have the same everything that matters.

Quote
Now the present day western rite orthodoxy does allow some differences for certain, but it is inconsistent in what pre-schism customs it accepts and what it does not
Eastern Rite folks have the same problem. Just start a discussion about the different lengths of the liturgy for that can of worms.....

Quote
The majority of westerners are uncomfortable taking part in a western rite orthodoxy
Source? I didnt know the majority of westerners even know about Orthodoxy, let alone the Western Rite....news to me.....

Quote
from a philosophical/cultural point of view why the western rite orthodoxy continues to struggle to attract converts
Source? Western Rite parishes are opening all the time, and are doing fine. In our parish, we have tripled the size of our parish in the last 5 years and all but one person is still faithful. We've chrismated more in the last 3 years than some parishes chrismate in 30 (outside of infants). The western rite is doing what alot of parishes refuse to do. Go forth and proclaim the gospel and stop being an ethnic museum.

Quote
it lacks the respect for the entire tradition, it only gives bits and pieces
Again, source? What "respect" are we neglecting? Give me details.

Have you actually been to a WR liturgy? You give generalized complaints, many of which have been debunked by OTHER ER priests (Fr. Patrick Reardon comes to mind) without giving examples.

PP
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« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2014, 12:44:38 PM »

PrimusPalus,

For canons I spoke of ones Rome had before 1054 not after, they were never identical. My source is that nearly all educated traditional catholics and anglicans refuse to take western rite orthodoxy seriously. I've spoken to them and asked them to consider it for years, these are the people who know the orthodox church better than anyone else whos not orthodox.

Ask Dr. William J. Tighe at Muhlenberg College for specific answers if you like. I am not a professional apologist and I think that you may very well not care for the answers I give irregardless of what they are.
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« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2014, 10:13:29 PM »

PrimusPalus,

For canons I spoke of ones Rome had before 1054 not after, they were never identical. My source is that nearly all educated traditional catholics and anglicans refuse to take western rite orthodoxy seriously.

In recent times, I've been tempted to create a proposal saying that WRO cannot be taken seriously unless it has mandatory priestly celibacy (just for fun, though, since I actually don't have a very high opinion of mandatory priestly celibacy).
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 10:15:07 PM by Peter J » Logged

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« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2014, 10:33:35 PM »

I actually pray that the day comes when WRO "IS" taken seriously. Not because I believe in schisms, but because for those who are not going to be Roman Catholics, it is the only reasonable option that exists. I am sorry that my criticisms are sometimes misunderstood or appear nitpicky.

I do not think highly of mandatory priestly celibacy either, nor am I a poster boy for forcible reintroduction of the married priesthood. I remain officially neutral in that matter. (I see no difference whatsoever between either married or unmarried clergy in how well they function in the liturgy and fulfill their basic taskes) but Peter J's point is a valid example of exactly what I am talking about.

If you want REAL western rite orthodoxy you give exactly what the west had nothing more, nothing less.

Omit the filioque - FINE, but all the other aspects that no one talks about.. those are the ones that persuaded me it was not what God intends for the long term for the full flowering of the latin tradition.

Everytime I see a new WRO priest ordained wearing a phelonion instead of a chasuble, I know I made the right decision. It is but another indian reservation. For that matter, I do not view the byzantine rite catholics as appearing logical either. (Melkites are OK, but too many are ecumenists). I don't much care for either one at this point.  You want to be eastern be Orthodox, you want to be Latin be Catholic. Everything inbetween is some kind of weird compromise. The absolutely horridly ugly "spaceship" style cathedral that the Ukrainian Catholics built in Kiev for their patriarchate is a perfect example of this weirdness. I want no part of it, am burned out.

Apparently the Eastern Catholics and Western Rite Orthodox is really good and helpful for a number of people - so more power to them.
They have helped me - and they are great to visit - but I would not want to live there.
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« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2014, 10:44:50 PM »

I actually pray that the day comes when WRO "IS" taken seriously. Not because I believe in schisms,

Although I try to have the utmost respect for other Christians, it doesn't seem to me very much of a schism when someone leaves Anglicanism, given how divided the Anglicans are among themselves. (I feel differently, naturally, if it's a case of someone leaving Catholicism.)
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« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2014, 10:47:27 PM »

I actually pray that the day comes when WRO "IS" taken seriously. Not because I believe in schisms,

Although I try to have the utmost respect for other Christians, it doesn't seem to me very much of a schism when someone leaves Anglicanism, given how divided the Anglicans are among themselves. (I feel differently, naturally, if it's a case of someone leaving Catholicism.)

Yeah, right, but at least the WRO have valid grace filled sacraments. Anglicanism is protestants pretending. Helpful perhaps, but lacking the number of verified miracles.
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« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2014, 11:17:18 PM »

I actually pray that the day comes when WRO "IS" taken seriously. Not because I believe in schisms,

Although I try to have the utmost respect for other Christians, it doesn't seem to me very much of a schism when someone leaves Anglicanism, given how divided the Anglicans are among themselves. (I feel differently, naturally, if it's a case of someone leaving Catholicism.)

Yeah, right, but at least the WRO have valid grace filled sacraments. Anglicanism is protestants pretending. Helpful perhaps, but lacking the number of verified miracles.

Alright. This seems a slightly odd response (if only because of the word "but") but anyhow I guess you agree that it "doesn't seem ... very much of a schism when someone leaves Anglicanism". Smiley
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« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2014, 07:53:42 AM »

Quote
For canons I spoke of ones Rome had before 1054 not after, they were never identical
Ah. My apologies. I thought you were speaking of the Western Rite.

Quote
My source is that nearly all educated traditional catholics and anglicans refuse to take western rite orthodoxy seriously.
Really? Your source is incorrect. My priest was a bishop in the Anglican Church and he left with a host of priests, all of which are very well educated (hint, there is a member of this very message board who is one of them, who will remain anonymous unless he wishes to comment).

Quote
William J. Tighe
Ah, is this the same Dr. Tighe who admitted that he criticized the Western Rite before actually putting eyes on the liturgy, and never attending a service? Yeah, no thanks.

Quote
In recent times, I've been tempted to create a proposal saying that WRO cannot be taken seriously unless it has mandatory priestly celibacy (just for fun, though, since I actually don't have a very high opinion of mandatory priestly celibacy)
I dont think that the Pope would approve of that, judging by his comments of late concerning the topic.

Quote
You want to be eastern be Orthodox, you want to be Latin be Catholic
This is why the WRO are misunderstood, because of ignorant statements like this.

Quote
Apparently the Eastern Catholics and Western Rite Orthodox is really good and helpful for a number of people - so more power to them
You can't correlate the two. They are entirely different animals.

PP
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« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2014, 11:29:50 AM »

Quote
You want to be eastern be Orthodox, you want to be Latin be Catholic
This is why the WRO are misunderstood, because of ignorant statements like this.

Perhaps we're seeing here why e.g. there are no WRO in Greece.
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« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2014, 07:53:34 PM »

Quote
You want to be eastern be Orthodox, you want to be Latin be Catholic
This is why the WRO are misunderstood, because of ignorant statements like this.

Perhaps we're seeing here why e.g. there are no WRO in Greece.

Last time I checked, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.
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« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2014, 08:29:54 PM »

Quote
You want to be eastern be Orthodox, you want to be Latin be Catholic
This is why the WRO are misunderstood, because of ignorant statements like this.

Perhaps we're seeing here why e.g. there are no WRO in Greece.

Last time I checked, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.

I'm not sure if this was meant as a serious response or not, but you're right, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.
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« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2014, 09:31:56 PM »

Am I the only one that thinks that the WR would do better if it was independent of Eastern Rite Churches?

Here is what I mean. Take 10 Eastern monks train them on the Western Rite and then ordain them bishops of a autonomous western rite church with instructions of allowing organic growth as long as them conform to EO theology.
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« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2014, 09:46:08 PM »

Am I the only one that thinks that the WR would do better if it was independent of Eastern Rite Churches?

Here is what I mean. Take 10 Eastern monks train them on the Western Rite and then ordain them bishops of a autonomous western rite church with instructions of allowing organic growth as long as them conform to EO theology.

Would you carve out a geographic location for them too or just give the stamp of approval for overlapping jurisdictions?
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« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2014, 10:27:15 PM »

Mr. McAvoy's complaints always seem to be centered on the fact that WRO parishes are pretty much only interested in being Orthodox and Western, and not some grand scheme to restore a mythically glorious Latin past. He knows he made the "right decision" because of seeing photos of something a priest was wearing? Good grief.

I'm glad my humble parish doesn't exist to fulfill the odd fantasties of historical/liturgical fetishists as if the entire Western world would come running if we just put on costumes and pretended it was 500-1100 AD.

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« Reply #82 on: June 12, 2014, 10:33:51 PM »

Am I the only one that thinks that the WR would do better if it was independent of Eastern Rite Churches?

Here is what I mean. Take 10 Eastern monks train them on the Western Rite and then ordain them bishops of a autonomous western rite church with instructions of allowing organic growth as long as them conform to EO theology.

Would you carve out a geographic location for them too or just give the stamp of approval for overlapping jurisdictions?

I won't try to answer that, per se, as I'm not Orthodox. But speaking as a Catholic -- and especially as an Eastern Catholic -- I find it a little strange that you guys have several jurisdictions in the USA, but not a single one that is WR.
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« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2014, 10:36:30 PM »

Mr. McAvoy's complaints always seem to be centered on the fact that WRO parishes are pretty much only interested in being Orthodox and Western, and not some grand scheme to restore a mythically glorious Latin past.

Dude, he can hear what you're saying.


(Kidding ... sort of.)
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« Reply #84 on: June 12, 2014, 10:38:21 PM »

Mr. McAvoy's complaints always seem to be centered on the fact that WRO parishes are pretty much only interested in being Orthodox and Western, and not some grand scheme to restore a mythically glorious Latin past.

Dude, he can hear what you're saying.


(Kidding ... sort of.)

 Cheesy I've gone round and round with him on here before, and only posted in this manner because he is often less than prompt in replying to threads (or will resurrect some months later).
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« Reply #85 on: June 12, 2014, 10:41:38 PM »

Quote
You want to be eastern be Orthodox, you want to be Latin be Catholic
This is why the WRO are misunderstood, because of ignorant statements like this.

Perhaps we're seeing here why e.g. there are no WRO in Greece.

Last time I checked, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.

I'm not sure if this was meant as a serious response or not, but you're right, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.

I won't speak for LBK, but I'm not sure if your questions/comments are serious to begin with. 
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« Reply #86 on: June 12, 2014, 10:53:29 PM »

Quote
You want to be eastern be Orthodox, you want to be Latin be Catholic
This is why the WRO are misunderstood, because of ignorant statements like this.

Perhaps we're seeing here why e.g. there are no WRO in Greece.

Last time I checked, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.

I'm not sure if this was meant as a serious response or not, but you're right, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.

I won't speak for LBK, but I'm not sure if your questions/comments are serious to begin with. 

Well, that's really a very broad-based attack, so I'm not really sure what to say in defense of myself or my participation on this forum. But regardless, it truly amazes me that the lack of Western-Rite Orthodox in Greece would be explained (if that is in fact what LBK meant) in terms of the Antiochians and ROCOR not being present there.
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« Reply #87 on: June 12, 2014, 11:01:11 PM »

Quote
You want to be eastern be Orthodox, you want to be Latin be Catholic
This is why the WRO are misunderstood, because of ignorant statements like this.

Perhaps we're seeing here why e.g. there are no WRO in Greece.

Last time I checked, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.

I'm not sure if this was meant as a serious response or not, but you're right, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.

I won't speak for LBK, but I'm not sure if your questions/comments are serious to begin with. 

Well, that's really a very broad-based attack, so I'm not really sure what to say in defense of myself or my participation on this forum. But regardless, it truly amazes me that the lack of Western-Rite Orthodox in Greece would be explained (if that is in fact what LBK meant) in terms of the Antiochians and ROCOR not being present there.

Why would you expect Western Rite Orthodox in a country which is predominantly Eastern Orthodox?  It's like criticising the Vatican for not having a Syro-Malankara parish within its geographic bounds. 
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« Reply #88 on: June 12, 2014, 11:13:46 PM »

Quote
You want to be eastern be Orthodox, you want to be Latin be Catholic
This is why the WRO are misunderstood, because of ignorant statements like this.

Perhaps we're seeing here why e.g. there are no WRO in Greece.

Last time I checked, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.

I'm not sure if this was meant as a serious response or not, but you're right, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.

I won't speak for LBK, but I'm not sure if your questions/comments are serious to begin with.  

Well, that's really a very broad-based attack, so I'm not really sure what to say in defense of myself or my participation on this forum. But regardless, it truly amazes me that the lack of Western-Rite Orthodox in Greece would be explained (if that is in fact what LBK meant) in terms of the Antiochians and ROCOR not being present there.

Why would you expect Western Rite Orthodox in a country which is predominantly Eastern Orthodox?  It's like criticising the Vatican for not having a Syro-Malankara parish within its geographic bounds.  

Um, sure, it's like criticising the Vatican for not having a Syro-Malankara parish within its geographic bounds.
[/sarcasm]

Sorry couldn't resist. But unless I'm greatly misinformed, the number of Malankara Christians in Italy is, if not non-existent, certainly much smaller than the 100,000+ Western Catholics in Greece (assuming it matters whether your comparison makes sense or not Smiley).
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« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2014, 11:35:55 PM »

Quote
You want to be eastern be Orthodox, you want to be Latin be Catholic
This is why the WRO are misunderstood, because of ignorant statements like this.

Perhaps we're seeing here why e.g. there are no WRO in Greece.

Last time I checked, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.

I'm not sure if this was meant as a serious response or not, but you're right, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.

I won't speak for LBK, but I'm not sure if your questions/comments are serious to begin with.  

Well, that's really a very broad-based attack, so I'm not really sure what to say in defense of myself or my participation on this forum. But regardless, it truly amazes me that the lack of Western-Rite Orthodox in Greece would be explained (if that is in fact what LBK meant) in terms of the Antiochians and ROCOR not being present there.

Why would you expect Western Rite Orthodox in a country which is predominantly Eastern Orthodox?  It's like criticising the Vatican for not having a Syro-Malankara parish within its geographic bounds.  

Um, sure, it's like criticising the Vatican for not having a Syro-Malankara parish within its geographic bounds.
[/sarcasm]

Sorry couldn't resist. But unless I'm greatly misinformed, the number of Malankara Christians in Italy is, if not non-existent, certainly much smaller than the 100,000+ Western Catholics in Greece (assuming it matters whether your comparison makes sense or not Smiley).

You still didn't answer the question.  But I won't begrudge anyone their laughter. 
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« Reply #90 on: June 12, 2014, 11:44:19 PM »

Am I the only one that thinks that the WR would do better if it was independent of Eastern Rite Churches?

Here is what I mean. Take 10 Eastern monks train them on the Western Rite and then ordain them bishops of a autonomous western rite church with instructions of allowing organic growth as long as them conform to EO theology.

Would you carve out a geographic location for them too or just give the stamp of approval for overlapping jurisdictions?

Personally, I don't foresee us getting rid of overlapping jurisdictions in the near future. I know that is what a lot of people are expecting with the Assemblies but I will believe when I see it. It may be that they are here to stay and I can accept that.
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« Reply #91 on: June 12, 2014, 11:56:08 PM »

Quote
You want to be eastern be Orthodox, you want to be Latin be Catholic
This is why the WRO are misunderstood, because of ignorant statements like this.

Perhaps we're seeing here why e.g. there are no WRO in Greece.

Last time I checked, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.

I'm not sure if this was meant as a serious response or not, but you're right, neither Antioch nor ROCOR have a jurisdictional presence on Greece.

I won't speak for LBK, but I'm not sure if your questions/comments are serious to begin with.  

Well, that's really a very broad-based attack, so I'm not really sure what to say in defense of myself or my participation on this forum. But regardless, it truly amazes me that the lack of Western-Rite Orthodox in Greece would be explained (if that is in fact what LBK meant) in terms of the Antiochians and ROCOR not being present there.

Why would you expect Western Rite Orthodox in a country which is predominantly Eastern Orthodox?  It's like criticising the Vatican for not having a Syro-Malankara parish within its geographic bounds.  

Um, sure, it's like criticising the Vatican for not having a Syro-Malankara parish within its geographic bounds.
[/sarcasm]

Sorry couldn't resist. But unless I'm greatly misinformed, the number of Malankara Christians in Italy is, if not non-existent, certainly much smaller than the 100,000+ Western Catholics in Greece (assuming it matters whether your comparison makes sense or not Smiley).

The western Catholics in Greece are there because of the way history has panned out there. Franks, Venetians, Crusaders, and even the British have held sway in Greek islands and regions at various times over the past thousand years.
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« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2014, 11:19:41 PM »

Does anyone have an updated status on the ROCOR Western Rite Vicariate? 

Just curious. 

+Pax 
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« Reply #93 on: November 30, 2014, 11:38:58 PM »

Does anyone have an updated status on the ROCOR Western Rite Vicariate? 

Just curious. 

+Pax 

Christminster, as far as their website says, still exists, only reloacted to Niagara Falls, NY from Hamilton, ON for unrelated reasons to what the Bishops have done
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« Reply #94 on: November 30, 2014, 11:40:02 PM »

Does anyone have an updated status on the ROCOR Western Rite Vicariate? 

Just curious. 

+Pax 

Christminster, as far as their website says, still exists, only reloacted to Niagara Falls, NY from Hamilton, ON for unrelated reasons to what the Bishops have done

Thanks.  No news on the rest of the WRV parishes? 
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« Reply #95 on: November 30, 2014, 11:49:53 PM »

I have heard nothing new. I don't have an opinion on the matter because I don't feel qualified to have one, but I heard one ROCOR priest suggest that thoughts of  interest into the Western Rite be treated as impure thoughts, and if one was dead set on exploring the WR to do so through the Antiochian WR, because of the irregularities of ROCOR WR.
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« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2014, 12:09:24 AM »

With all the opposition in ROCOR to the Western Rite, why don't the Antiochians absorb them? 
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« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2014, 12:12:07 AM »

Just a couple of comments...

Regarding: "Christminster, as far as their website says, still exists, only reloacted to Niagara Falls, NY from Hamilton, ON for unrelated reasons to what the Bishops have done"

While that could be said to be strictly true, the relocation itself as a result of some of the same things that caused the Synod to act.

Regarding: " I heard one ROCOR priest suggest that thoughts of  interest into the Western Rite be treated as impure thoughts, and if one was dead set on exploring the WR to do so through the Antiochian WR, because of the irregularities of ROCOR WR."

That's the kind of comment (by the unnamed Priest) which should be taken for what it's worth: nothing.

In general: the W/R is alive, well, and functioning in the ROCOR. The 2015 W/R Conference has been scheduled for next year. The very fact that nothing seems to be appearing to spark discussion is evidence that the W/R is recovering/healing from it's problems which the Synod dealt with. This is truly a case in which "no news is good news," I believe.

Protopriest Anthony
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« Reply #98 on: December 01, 2014, 12:29:18 AM »

Just a couple of comments...

Regarding: "Christminster, as far as their website says, still exists, only reloacted to Niagara Falls, NY from Hamilton, ON for unrelated reasons to what the Bishops have done"

While that could be said to be strictly true, the relocation itself as a result of some of the same things that caused the Synod to act.

Regarding: " I heard one ROCOR priest suggest that thoughts of  interest into the Western Rite be treated as impure thoughts, and if one was dead set on exploring the WR to do so through the Antiochian WR, because of the irregularities of ROCOR WR."

That's the kind of comment (by the unnamed Priest) which should be taken for what it's worth: nothing.

In general: the W/R is alive, well, and functioning in the ROCOR. The 2015 W/R Conference has been scheduled for next year. The very fact that nothing seems to be appearing to spark discussion is evidence that the W/R is recovering/healing from it's problems which the Synod dealt with. This is truly a case in which "no news is good news," I believe.

Protopriest Anthony

Interesting.  According to your website, you are still not offering liturgy according to the Western Rite.  Is that correct? Are other WRV Parishes in ROCOR in a similar situation? 
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« Reply #99 on: December 01, 2014, 12:34:14 AM »

Just a couple of comments...

Regarding: "Christminster, as far as their website says, still exists, only reloacted to Niagara Falls, NY from Hamilton, ON for unrelated reasons to what the Bishops have done"

While that could be said to be strictly true, the relocation itself as a result of some of the same things that caused the Synod to act.

Regarding: " I heard one ROCOR priest suggest that thoughts of  interest into the Western Rite be treated as impure thoughts, and if one was dead set on exploring the WR to do so through the Antiochian WR, because of the irregularities of ROCOR WR."

That's the kind of comment (by the unnamed Priest) which should be taken for what it's worth: nothing.

In general: the W/R is alive, well, and functioning in the ROCOR. The 2015 W/R Conference has been scheduled for next year. The very fact that nothing seems to be appearing to spark discussion is evidence that the W/R is recovering/healing from it's problems which the Synod dealt with. This is truly a case in which "no news is good news," I believe.

Protopriest Anthony
That is good to hear.  Smiley
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« Reply #100 on: December 01, 2014, 12:42:57 AM »

RE: "Interesting.  According to your website, you are still not offering liturgy according to the Western Rite.  Is that correct? Are other WRV Parishes in ROCOR in a similar situation?"

No others like us. We are the only bi-ritual parish in the Russian Church. We still serve W/R several times per week, but not on an advertised schedule, publicly. The reasons are several, but primary among them is that in the current 1.3 million population of the Oklahoma City metro area, there is not enough interest in the W/R to warrant it. The only other Orthodox W/R effort in the area - by the Antiochians - closed several years ago, suffering dropping membership and never grew over the time after being received from the Charismatic Episcopal church previously. Those parishioners - less than 20 I believe, at the time of closing, scattered: some became E/R, a couple became RC, a few joined various prot. denominations, some just disappeared. The Priest is now serving E/R in an Antiochian mission.

Protopriest Anthony
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« Reply #101 on: December 01, 2014, 10:57:41 AM »

RE: "Interesting.  According to your website, you are still not offering liturgy according to the Western Rite.  Is that correct? Are other WRV Parishes in ROCOR in a similar situation?"

No others like us. We are the only bi-ritual parish in the Russian Church. We still serve W/R several times per week, but not on an advertised schedule, publicly. The reasons are several, but primary among them is that in the current 1.3 million population of the Oklahoma City metro area, there is not enough interest in the W/R to warrant it. The only other Orthodox W/R effort in the area - by the Antiochians - closed several years ago, suffering dropping membership and never grew over the time after being received from the Charismatic Episcopal church previously. Those parishioners - less than 20 I believe, at the time of closing, scattered: some became E/R, a couple became RC, a few joined various prot. denominations, some just disappeared. The Priest is now serving E/R in an Antiochian mission.

Protopriest Anthony

Thank you Father, for the information. 

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« Reply #102 on: December 01, 2014, 12:17:06 PM »

RE: "Interesting.  According to your website, you are still not offering liturgy according to the Western Rite.  Is that correct? Are other WRV Parishes in ROCOR in a similar situation?"

No others like us. We are the only bi-ritual parish in the Russian Church. We still serve W/R several times per week, but not on an advertised schedule, publicly. The reasons are several, but primary among them is that in the current 1.3 million population of the Oklahoma City metro area, there is not enough interest in the W/R to warrant it.

I find this a bit confusing. I don't know anything about how to arrange a proper parish life but since you celebrate WR anyway it does seem a bit weird that you don't publish the schedule. Is it troublesome to put the schedule on the website or something?
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« Reply #103 on: December 01, 2014, 12:47:29 PM »

Is there an updated list of parishes that still use the Western Rite in ROCOR?
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« Reply #104 on: December 01, 2014, 02:03:29 PM »

Is there an updated list of parishes that still use the Western Rite in ROCOR?

Not sure when this was last updated : http://www.rwrv.org/map.html
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« Reply #105 on: December 01, 2014, 07:02:01 PM »

We still serve W/R several times per week, but not on an advertised schedule, publicly. The reasons are several, but primary among them is that in the current 1.3 million population of the Oklahoma City metro area, there is not enough interest in the W/R to warrant it.

Protopriest Anthony
Father, how can you build interest  in it if you don't advertise it and invite people to attend it?
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