OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 31, 2014, 02:39:52 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The ROCOR WRV does still exist, yes?  (Read 3212 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Regnare
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquiring into Orthodoxy
Posts: 272



« on: March 05, 2014, 12:22:41 AM »

I'm just checking, because I thought it still existed after the thing with Bishop Jerome, but in my reading about Continuing Anglicanism I discovered that one jurisdiction, the Anglican Province of America, actually now has a Vicariate for former Western Orthodox who fled there after ROCOR, as they put it, "abolished" its Western Rite Vicariate. So could someone verify that it still exists?
Logged

"To believe [the Paraclete] when you wish it, and then disbelieve him when you wish it, is to believe nobody but yourself." --St. Augustine, Contra Faustum XXXII.16
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2014, 12:29:11 AM »

I think it still exists, it is much smaller and more supervised than it was. Not all the WR priests in ROCOR from the Vicariate left the Church.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
OrthoNoob
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 995



« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2014, 01:23:56 AM »

There is now a Western Rite 'Community' under the omophorion of Met. +HILARION. The Vicariate as such no longer exists but the Western Rite has not disappeared from the ROCOR.
Logged

http://avengingredhand.wordpress.com -- My blog

'These words I, Leo, have set down for love and as a safeguard of the Orthodox Faith'
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,639



« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2014, 02:05:53 AM »

I think it still exists, it is much smaller and more supervised than it was. Not all the WR priests in ROCOR from the Vicariate left the Church.

Much smaller? How many left?
Logged
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,416



WWW
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2014, 02:47:22 AM »

I think it still exists, it is much smaller and more supervised than it was. Not all the WR priests in ROCOR from the Vicariate left the Church.

Much smaller? How many left?

According to Fr Aidan, only one priest had left (I'm guessing Fr Novak, who is now in the APA Western Rite Vicariate [is it just me or is that redundant? Like GOARCH offering an Eastern Rite Vicariate?]) as of December 2013: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/2013/12/update-long-overdue.html.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,639



« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2014, 03:53:36 AM »

Fr. Anthony Bondi left too but thinking of laymen too. We're any of the missions closed or something?
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,252



« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2014, 01:10:49 PM »

According to Fr Aidan, only one priest had left (I'm guessing Fr Novak, who is now in the APA Western Rite Vicariate [is it just me or is that redundant? Like GOARCH offering an Eastern Rite Vicariate?]) as of December 2013: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/2013/12/update-long-overdue.html.

His parish was received into ROCOR for only half a year before leaving for APA?
Logged
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,416



WWW
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2014, 03:24:36 AM »

According to Fr Aidan, only one priest had left (I'm guessing Fr Novak, who is now in the APA Western Rite Vicariate [is it just me or is that redundant? Like GOARCH offering an Eastern Rite Vicariate?]) as of December 2013: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/2013/12/update-long-overdue.html.

His parish was received into ROCOR for only half a year before leaving for APA?

I think it's more like his parish was received into ROCOR for only a few days before leaving for APA. I can't be too sure about the chronology of the actual departure, but given that his parish had just been received into ROCOR before the news about the disbanding of the vicariate and the fact that he was announcing a "Western Rite Vicariate under the APA" by December (and I just found an item on the Holy Cross website about "restoring the Western Rite Vicariate" from October of 2013 here: http://www.holycrossomaha.net/news.html), something that seems would take a few months administrative negotiation. My guess would be that Fr Novak was one of the priests whose ordination was under review. The fact that he left so quickly, and would view a particular rite to be more important than the Church (while acknowledging that it must have seemed like a bit of a bait-and-switch to have been received into the Church only to have one's ordination under review) shows, I believe, the very type of problem that led to the disbanding of the Vicariate (ROCOR) to begin with.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
Regnare
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquiring into Orthodoxy
Posts: 272



« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2014, 01:30:01 PM »

who is now in the APA Western Rite Vicariate [is it just me or is that redundant? Like GOARCH offering an Eastern Rite Vicariate?]
I think the difference is that they still celebrate the liturgy according to the Orthodox revisions of the Western Rite, as opposed to the ordinary BCP used by the rest of the APA, which includes the Filioque, etc.
Logged

"To believe [the Paraclete] when you wish it, and then disbelieve him when you wish it, is to believe nobody but yourself." --St. Augustine, Contra Faustum XXXII.16
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 08:29:51 PM »

As stated earlier, the vicariate structure is gone, but a "community" still exists.

Most missions/parishes still exist. The main difference now is that, much like the Antiochian WR parishes/missions, they are not growing as fast. The "momentum" is lost. Trust and confidence is lost. What to do...I do not know.

I see serious problems in both western rite orthodoxy and eastern rite catholicism for their future stability and growth. They are here for now, will they be there forever , in the USA specifically, I do not know. Of course in eastern europe and western asia the eastern catholics will survive, but in the USA, who knows. Many eastern rite catholic churches under rome in the americas also are growing slowly and losing parishioners. Now that most RC's have more availability to latin masses, the incentive the byzantine rite once offered is not as strong. Additionally the bishops of the rusyn byzantine rite catholic church, not only leave much to be desired, but they have in recent years introduced various liberal liturgical ideas that dont exist in any orthodox churches not in communion with Rome.

It is too complicated. Only God knows the future.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 08:30:38 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,912


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2014, 08:44:05 PM »

As stated earlier, the vicariate structure is gone, but a "community" still exists.

Most missions/parishes still exist. The main difference now is that, much like the Antiochian WR parishes/missions, they are not growing as fast. The "momentum" is lost. Trust and confidence is lost. What to do...I do not know.

I see serious problems in both western rite orthodoxy and eastern rite catholicism for their future stability and growth. They are here for now, will they be there forever , in the USA specifically, I do not know. Of course in eastern europe and western asia the eastern catholics will survive, but in the USA, who knows. Many eastern rite catholic churches under rome in the americas also are growing slowly and losing parishioners. Now that most RC's have more availability to latin masses, the incentive the byzantine rite once offered is not as strong. Additionally the bishops of the rusyn byzantine rite catholic church, not only leave much to be desired, but they have in recent years introduced various liberal liturgical ideas that dont exist in any orthodox churches not in communion with Rome.

It is too complicated. Only God knows the future.



Sadly, the Russian Byzantine Catholic Churches here in America are placed under the local Roman Catholic bishop who often treats them more like orphans. Russian Catholics do not have a patriarch due to the Russian-Vatican agreement with the soviets.  

While it is true that a lot of Eastern Catholics are either joining the Latin Rite to take advantage of the parochial school discounts, or they have joined the Orthodox Church, it works both ways. I know some Orthodox Christians who have joined the Roman Catholic Church solely because they wanted the Roman Catholic parochial school discount, and their children preferred the Mass in English rather than the Divine Liturgy in Greek. In addition, their children wanted to blend in and be "an American." Here in the Los Angeles Archdiocese, Catholic schools allow Greek Orthodox children to receive "First Holy Communion" and to partake in confirmation when they have already received the Sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, Chrismation, and Holy Communion) when they were christened as a baby.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 08:47:39 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2014, 10:41:25 PM »

Yes, for all the challenges that western rite orthodoxy has, it does have two advantages over the eastern catholic churches in the USA.
Those advantages are, firstly, over time more and more westerners become byzantine rite orthodox bishops and part of byzantine rite churches, this puts the odds of favour toward the western rite over time to be higher and higher. The second advantage is that even though most western rite churches and missions grow extremely slowly, or barely grow at all, what is also important is that, they tend to stay about the same size. As long as no one suppresses them, chances are they will be here for many decades, not necessarily growing, but surviving and happily serving an important role. Simply surviving is important, because it means that there is still hope for them to flourish in the future. Under the right circumstances, with more pro-western rite bishops, the day when they have prosperity and their own bishopric may eventually dawn.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 10:44:11 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
jwinch2
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 117


« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2014, 09:08:54 AM »

Yes, for all the challenges that western rite orthodoxy has, it does have two advantages over the eastern catholic churches in the USA.
Those advantages are, firstly, over time more and more westerners become byzantine rite orthodox bishops and part of byzantine rite churches, this puts the odds of favour toward the western rite over time to be higher and higher. The second advantage is that even though most western rite churches and missions grow extremely slowly, or barely grow at all, what is also important is that, they tend to stay about the same size. As long as no one suppresses them, chances are they will be here for many decades, not necessarily growing, but surviving and happily serving an important role. Simply surviving is important, because it means that there is still hope for them to flourish in the future. Under the right circumstances, with more pro-western rite bishops, the day when they have prosperity and their own bishopric may eventually dawn.

There are a great many Catholic of a traditional mindset who are quite anxious at some of the things going on in the Catholic Church right now.  Depending on what happens at our upcoming Synod on the Family, etc. things could get ugly.  I know more than a few who have started to doubt the Catholic Church due to the actions of Pope Francis, and the men he has put into key positions, many of whom are open modernists.  It would not be terribly surprising for some of those to make the decision to convert should things continue on their current trajectory.  Many of those would be deeply attached to Western liturgical forms, and prayer.  If there were WR Parishes close by, that might serve to increase their numbers, and foster growth in the future, as most traditional Catholics tend to have multiple children. 

Just a thought. 

Peace,
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,698



« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2014, 10:49:27 AM »

Even if there are still WR churches in ROCOR, I had felt that the ROCOR Holy Synod on July 10, 2013 made it very clear that major changes were expected in the Western Rites Vicariate. Some of the more pointed decisions were

"1) To halt the ordination of new clergymen for parishes adhering to the Western Rite.

7) To establish a commission to examine the means of integrating clergymen and communities of the Western Rite into the liturgical life of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Cool To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite.

9) To emphasize our adherence to the rules and traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church in general and of the Russian Orthodox Church in particular."

At least for me, all of these decisions point out to a strategic move to easternize the Western Rite.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,349


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 11:03:35 AM »

Even if there are still WR churches in ROCOR, I had felt that the ROCOR Holy Synod on July 10, 2013 made it very clear that major changes were expected in the Western Rites Vicariate. Some of the more pointed decisions were

"1) To halt the ordination of new clergymen for parishes adhering to the Western Rite.

7) To establish a commission to examine the means of integrating clergymen and communities of the Western Rite into the liturgical life of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Cool To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite.

9) To emphasize our adherence to the rules and traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church in general and of the Russian Orthodox Church in particular."

At least for me, all of these decisions point out to a strategic move to easternize the Western Rite.
Which Im not surprised, but I am saddened.
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2014, 03:39:18 PM »

Yet those decisions have not entirely materialized...perhaos in 6 monthes more will be known if they do.

Jwinch, your speculation has basis in truth but it seems to me to be an unlikely theory.

#1 Because there are not many western rite churches around.

#2 Because there are a number of instances a degree of cultural and liturgical incompatibility. IE little use of latin,  ex-protestant ministers/ex-protestant congregations who have a "low mass mentality" (liturgical minimalism). For example many do NOT like to pray the rosary.

#3 Odd as it may be, many Roman Catholics attached to the latin mass are in particular ways theologically the arch-nemesis of the Orthodox. Liturgically they are their friend, but not necessarily otherwise. Many have the most anti-pathy toward the Eastern Orthodox of anyone I have ever met, even if they do respect the byzantine liturgies. This is because they have often an attachment to the the older latin teachings and customs that have divided Roman Catholics from the Orthodox for centuries and refuse to let go of them. So one could also say that many of them are the least likely to ever convert.

My experience is that the average roman catholic who attends the average parish with the 1973 liturgy is more likely to be open to become Eastern Orthodox because they are less knowledgeable about their faith, therefore they have less to lose, as they never knew as much in the first place. The little customs they cant keep as Orthodox that the others refuse to let go of, they may not mind. While it does happen that those labeled "traditional" Roman Catholics do become Orthodox at times, they are more of an unique exception than something normal. Often times they are the people who love patristics more than they love st. thomas aquinas scholasticism. If you love the developments of the first millenium latin church more than the second and have a conservative liturgical ethos, you're going to have a sympathy for the Orthodox whatever kind of catholic you are.

Yes, Jwinch, under the right circumstances what you're saying could happen, as each western rite church is unique. However, its more likely they'll end up in the byzantine rite. Otherwise, the most likely possibility is that they will end up in some form of Roman Catholic church instead...schismatic or not.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 04:06:48 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
jwinch2
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 117


« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2014, 03:59:01 PM »

Yet those decisions have not entirely materialized...perhaos in 6 monthes more will be known if they do.

Jwinch, your speculation has basis in truth but it seems to me to be an unlikely theory.

#1 Because there are not many western rite churches around.

#2 Because there are a number of instances a degree of cultural and liturgical incompatibility. IE little use of latin,  ex-protestant ministers/ex-protestant congregations who have a "low mass mentality" (liturgical minimalism). For example many do NOT like to pray the rosary.


But yes, Jwinch, under the right circumstances what you're saying could happen, as each western rite church is unique. However, its more likely they'll end up in the byzantine rite. Otherwise, the most likely possibility is that they will end up in some form of Roman Catholic church instead...schismatic or not.


It is possible that you are correct.  However, I would not be surprised to see some movement.  For many Traditional Catholics, sedevacantism is an untenable theological position.  It is more likely, and I have talked to many who feel this way, that the conclusion would be that the Catholic Church had strayed, and was therefore not the true Church. 
Logged
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2014, 04:19:41 PM »

Quote
Outside the USA and in one or two places in Western Europe, Sedevacantism has NO followers. The Movement is unsustainable. Most adherents would rather be hermits, unwilling to be contacted or be contactable - a sociological fact which could lead to their demise over the next 3 generations. To claim that they're the remnants of the Faith may be a comforting thought for themselves, but street smarts still need to be applied.

Yes, precisely, jwinch. This is true that if you do not want to be Roman Catholic, but still want to be "catholic" of some kind with valid sacraments and legitimacy, their is hardly any options. As I always say, Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are the only two sensible options.  So, I agree, it could happen. There is potential.  

The continuing anglicans churches that severed from the majority, some of whom describe themselves as catholic, occasionally find appeal, just as a LONG time ago the "old catholics" did, but always they have certain protestant heresies remaining amongst their "bishops" who often have questionable apostolic succession (if any!).


However, it seems to me that the majority of conservative leaning Roman Catholics, and the clergy who support them, who have a great amount of power in the church are going to use whatever weight they have to overturn any overly innovative heretically suspicious doctrines turning up in upcoming synods. Whether the pontificate of His Holiness, Francis actually amounts to the horrors of doctrinal modernism some fear it could is unknown, I for know think it to be unlikely. Yet many Roman Catholics are very nervous about him and preparing for the worst, even as others seem to find him appealing for both good and bad reasons. Only the Holy Trinity knows the future.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 04:22:37 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2014, 04:26:03 PM »

Quote
Outside the USA and in one or two places in Western Europe, Sedevacantism has NO followers. The Movement is unsustainable. Most adherents would rather be hermits, unwilling to be contacted or be contactable - a sociological fact which could lead to their demise over the next 3 generations. To claim that they're the remnants of the Faith may be a comforting thought for themselves, but street smarts still need to be applied.

Yes, precisely, jwinch. This is true that if you do not want to be Roman Catholic, but still want to be "catholic" of some kind with valid sacraments and legitimacy, their is hardly any options. As I always say, Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are the only two sensible options.  So, I agree, it could happen. There is potential.  

The continuing anglicans churches that severed from the majority, some of whom describe themselves as catholic, occasionally find appeal, just as a LONG time ago the "old catholics" did, but always they have certain protestant heresies remaining amongst their "bishops" who often have questionable apostolic succession (if any!).


However, it seems to me that the majority of conservative leaning Roman Catholics, and the clergy who support them, who have a great amount of power in the church are going to use whatever weight they have to overturn any overly innovative heretically suspicious doctrines turning up in upcoming synods. Whether the pontificate of His Holiness, Francis actually amounts to the horrors of doctrinal modernism some fear it could is unknown, I for know think it to be unlikely. Yet many Roman Catholics are very nervous about him and preparing for the worst, even as others seem to find him appealing for both good and bad reasons. Only the Holy Trinity knows the future.

I highly doubt any major new decisions will come out of the council on family life. Humanae Vitae was supposed to change everything and it didn't. I suspect the same thing will happen here.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,912


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2014, 04:39:33 PM »

Quote
Outside the USA and in one or two places in Western Europe, Sedevacantism has NO followers. The Movement is unsustainable. Most adherents would rather be hermits, unwilling to be contacted or be contactable - a sociological fact which could lead to their demise over the next 3 generations. To claim that they're the remnants of the Faith may be a comforting thought for themselves, but street smarts still need to be applied.

Yes, precisely, jwinch. This is true that if you do not want to be Roman Catholic, but still want to be "catholic" of some kind with valid sacraments and legitimacy, their is hardly any options. As I always say, Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are the only two sensible options.  So, I agree, it could happen. There is potential.  

The continuing anglicans churches that severed from the majority, some of whom describe themselves as catholic, occasionally find appeal, just as a LONG time ago the "old catholics" did, but always they have certain protestant heresies remaining amongst their "bishops" who often have questionable apostolic succession (if any!).


However, it seems to me that the majority of conservative leaning Roman Catholics, and the clergy who support them, who have a great amount of power in the church are going to use whatever weight they have to overturn any overly innovative heretically suspicious doctrines turning up in upcoming synods. Whether the pontificate of His Holiness, Francis actually amounts to the horrors of doctrinal modernism some fear it could is unknown, I for know think it to be unlikely. Yet many Roman Catholics are very nervous about him and preparing for the worst, even as others seem to find him appealing for both good and bad reasons. Only the Holy Trinity knows the future.


I have corresponded with a few Catholics from around the globe. In France, Germany, the UK, Spain, Italy, and Australia, Traditional Catholics are very divided. With Pope Benedict's failed attempt to achieve reunion with the SSPX, it has once again split into several new factions. From what I am learning, several new groups from the SSPX have reunited with Rome, but they are required to believe in the documents of Vatican II. The main group of the SSPX is further reduced because there is another faction (The Resistance) that is following Bishop Williamson.

Not surprisingly, there is an additional faction from the SSPX that is not in communion with Rome, the SSPX, or Bishop Williamson. These people along with a few priests are without a bishop from what I have learned and worship in their homes using a typica-like service for Sundays if there is no priest available, and follow the Liturgy of the Hours (Matins, Lauds, Vespers & Compline). Although they do not consider themselves to be sedevacantists, in actuality they have become such.

None of these folks from the SSPX are likely to convert to Byzantine Eastern Catholics because the Byzantines must also believe in Vatican II and follow the New Code of Canon Law for Eastern Catholic Churches. Neither are they likely to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy.  They would not like the Antiochian Western Rite as Antiochians use a Mass that is largely adapted and derived from the Anglican Book of Common Prayers. There may be a few WO Antiochians that celebrate the Latin form of the Mass (I think St. Augustine in Denver does). That is the only parish that could possibly draw members of the SSPX or their splinter groups.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 04:44:37 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
jwinch2
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 117


« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2014, 06:09:44 PM »

Quote
Outside the USA and in one or two places in Western Europe, Sedevacantism has NO followers. The Movement is unsustainable. Most adherents would rather be hermits, unwilling to be contacted or be contactable - a sociological fact which could lead to their demise over the next 3 generations. To claim that they're the remnants of the Faith may be a comforting thought for themselves, but street smarts still need to be applied.

Yes, precisely, jwinch. This is true that if you do not want to be Roman Catholic, but still want to be "catholic" of some kind with valid sacraments and legitimacy, their is hardly any options. As I always say, Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are the only two sensible options.  So, I agree, it could happen. There is potential.  

The continuing anglicans churches that severed from the majority, some of whom describe themselves as catholic, occasionally find appeal, just as a LONG time ago the "old catholics" did, but always they have certain protestant heresies remaining amongst their "bishops" who often have questionable apostolic succession (if any!).


However, it seems to me that the majority of conservative leaning Roman Catholics, and the clergy who support them, who have a great amount of power in the church are going to use whatever weight they have to overturn any overly innovative heretically suspicious doctrines turning up in upcoming synods. Whether the pontificate of His Holiness, Francis actually amounts to the horrors of doctrinal modernism some fear it could is unknown, I for know think it to be unlikely. Yet many Roman Catholics are very nervous about him and preparing for the worst, even as others seem to find him appealing for both good and bad reasons. Only the Holy Trinity knows the future.

I highly doubt any major new decisions will come out of the council on family life. Humanae Vitae was supposed to change everything and it didn't. I suspect the same thing will happen here.

That was before His Holiness Pope (the Blessed Virgin might have felt like calling God a liar) Francis, and his council of 8 modernists.  Not to mention the applause he gave to the heretic Cardinal (Christ's miracles aren't historical fact) Kasper's book on the family, who has been calling for giving communion to Catholics in a state of mortal sin for some time now. 
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,452


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2014, 06:19:46 PM »

That was before His Holiness Pope (the Blessed Virgin might have felt like calling God a liar) Francis, and his council of 8 modernists.

Huh? 

Anyway, it is probably better to take the discussion about internal RC affairs to another section. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2014, 07:02:05 PM »

I agree with jwinch, that the average older generation of clergy of the Roman Catholic Church are more inclined to be tempted toward heresy than they were in 1968.  While with the younger generation is less tempted and more inclined to restore traditional teachings in the future.

So, the Roman Catholic Church is at a precipice, whether it will become worse or become better, or perhaps a little bit of both simultaneously until one or the other current prevails. I always think that the traditional/orthodox leaning current will prevail.

I guess yes at this point this conversation is tending to become irrelevant to the western rite of the orthodox church, and we can move past RC politics.

Unlike Maria, I have noticed very little reconciliation with many SSPX clergy to Rome, maybe 2 or 3 examples, such as the redemptorists in scotland, but thatsb all.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 07:03:17 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
jwinch2
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 117


« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2014, 08:07:22 PM »

That was before His Holiness Pope (the Blessed Virgin might have felt like calling God a liar) Francis, and his council of 8 modernists.

Huh? 

Anyway, it is probably better to take the discussion about internal RC affairs to another section. 

If you are curious shoot me a PM.  That way I won't disrupt your thread further. 

Peace, 
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,452


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2014, 09:05:03 PM »

That way I won't disrupt your thread further.  

Not my thread...our thread.  Wink
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
jwinch2
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 117


« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2014, 10:15:07 PM »

That way I won't disrupt your thread further.  

Not my thread...our thread.  Wink

+Pax
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,452


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2014, 10:16:11 PM »

...et bonum.  Smiley
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Aboonah
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: MP/ROCOR
Posts: 6



WWW
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2014, 08:29:11 PM »

Even if there are still WR churches in ROCOR, I had felt that the ROCOR Holy Synod on July 10, 2013 made it very clear that major changes were expected in the Western Rites Vicariate. Some of the more pointed decisions were

"1) To halt the ordination of new clergymen for parishes adhering to the Western Rite.

7) To establish a commission to examine the means of integrating clergymen and communities of the Western Rite into the liturgical life of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Cool To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite.

9) To emphasize our adherence to the rules and traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church in general and of the Russian Orthodox Church in particular."

At least for me, all of these decisions point out to a strategic move to easternize the Western Rite.

I just happened on this discussion...only a couple of comments:

I am one of the four members of the ROCOR Western-Rite Commission established after the abolition of the WR Vicariate last July. Ordinations are continuing - both to rectify those performed in the mass-ordinations which had been forbidden by the Metropolitan, and those found acceptable who were still awaiting ordination. While the points of Synodal decisions mentioned above have been characterized as destructive to the W/R in some quarters - including above - they do not represent any move to easternize the W/R. They are meant to address the many abuses that arose in the Vicariate and bring the W/R clergy out of isolation from the larger Church which was imposed by the former Vicariate leadership. All of our clergy are equal and equally worthy of respect.
Logged

V. Rev. Protopriest Anthony Nelson
Saint Benedict Russian Orthodox Church
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,912


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2014, 08:34:31 PM »

Even if there are still WR churches in ROCOR, I had felt that the ROCOR Holy Synod on July 10, 2013 made it very clear that major changes were expected in the Western Rites Vicariate. Some of the more pointed decisions were

"1) To halt the ordination of new clergymen for parishes adhering to the Western Rite.

7) To establish a commission to examine the means of integrating clergymen and communities of the Western Rite into the liturgical life of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Cool To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite.

9) To emphasize our adherence to the rules and traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church in general and of the Russian Orthodox Church in particular."

At least for me, all of these decisions point out to a strategic move to easternize the Western Rite.

I just happened on this discussion...only a couple of comments:

I am one of the four members of the ROCOR Western-Rite Commission established after the abolition of the WR Vicariate last July. Ordinations are continuing - both to rectify those performed in the mass-ordinations which had been forbidden by the Metropolitan, and those found acceptable who were still awaiting ordination. While the points of Synodal decisions mentioned above have been characterized as destructive to the W/R in some quarters - including above - they do not represent any move to easternize the W/R. They are meant to address the many abuses that arose in the Vicariate and bring the W/R clergy out of isolation from the larger Church which was imposed by the former Vicariate leadership. All of our clergy are equal and equally worthy of respect.

Thank you.

Do any of the WR priests in the ROCOR use the the more ancient Sarum Rite?
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Aboonah
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: MP/ROCOR
Posts: 6



WWW
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2014, 09:23:04 PM »

Do any of the WR priests in the ROCOR use the the more ancient Sarum Rite?

Fr. Aiden Keller occasionally serves it when he visits a W/R church or other place of worship. But he does not have a blessing to serve W/R at his B/R parish in Austin.

Regarding the comment, "...more ancient Sarum Rite?": more ancient than what? It is a variation of the Roman Rite, along with others. It is certainly long preceded by the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Dialogist (Gregorian Liturgy/Mass) and seems to start to take form in the 11th century, if I remember correctly. It has an interesting history worth looking at, I believe.

The original western Liturgy first approved by the Holy Synod of Moscow in the late 19th Century (c. 1870-ish) was the Gregorian (in Latin) with certain odd changes, such as the addition of the Trisagion.
Logged

V. Rev. Protopriest Anthony Nelson
Saint Benedict Russian Orthodox Church
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,912


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2014, 09:48:39 PM »

Do any of the WR priests in the ROCOR use the the more ancient Sarum Rite?

Fr. Aiden Keller occasionally serves it when he visits a W/R church or other place of worship. But he does not have a blessing to serve W/R at his B/R parish in Austin.

Regarding the comment, "...more ancient Sarum Rite?": more ancient than what? It is a variation of the Roman Rite, along with others. It is certainly long preceded by the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Dialogist (Gregorian Liturgy/Mass) and seems to start to take form in the 11th century, if I remember correctly. It has an interesting history worth looking at, I believe.

The original western Liturgy first approved by the Holy Synod of Moscow in the late 19th Century (c. 1870-ish) was the Gregorian (in Latin) with certain odd changes, such as the addition of the Trisagion.

Thank you.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2014, 11:02:27 PM »

With respect to Abooneh,

The Salisbury use is one of many local uses of the Roman rite, the point to it's claim of being older is that it represents a tradition that was unaltered by any commission, but grew organically without "liturgical archaeology" or pruning back of particular developments.
What exactly this "St. Gregory" you speak of means I do not know. If it is refers to the post-1550 rite of the Church of Rome, it would most definitely be older than this. Although we can say that for the average Sunday Mass there is little difference, in the various aspects of the liturgy throughout the year, and in various propers one noticed many differences, and overall it is a richer rite.

Now if one "enriches" what is a tridentine ordinary of the mass with various aspects of the pre-tridentine roman rite, of which the Salisbury use is but one typical form of it which was consistently similar throughout all of western europe, than it ceases to have much or ANY difference. (Meaning that all pre-tridentine liturgies, pre-1550 uses of the rite of rome are richer and more similar to each other than those after 1550 which were reformed). Of course this does not take into account the rites of the particular religious orders, such as dominican or carmelite which were left more in tact until the 20th century, but even they were not totally untouched by the council of trent and it's reforms. It WAS the Vatican II of it's day, only much less radical, but the beginnings of the liturgical reform principles and protestant influence can trace it's beginnings to that council.

For certain I would argue that to use the Tridentine rite as it is and name it after St. Gregory the Great/Dialogian to give it the air of being from 1st millenium is deceptive. While the ordinary of the mass is close enough to that from a thousand years earlier, other aspects are not.

" the holy Oecumenical Council of Trent."
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 11:04:44 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
Aboonah
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: MP/ROCOR
Posts: 6



WWW
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2014, 08:33:47 AM »

>The Salisbury use is one of many local uses of the Roman rite, the point to it's claim of being older is that it represents
>a tradition that was unaltered by any commission, but grew organically without "liturgical archaeology" or pruning back
>of particular developments.

None of the above makes the Sarum/Salisbury use "older" than the Gregorian. "...unaltered by any commission..." of course - but altered it was, even if the term "altered" is replaced by "grew organically" or some other semantic work-around. Every rite developed: that's natural as a rite moves across geography and time.

>What exactly this "St. Gregory" you speak of means I do not know.

The Roman liturgy first developed by St. Gregory the Dialogist and which was the basis of almost all of the other variations of the Roman Rite until Trent. Actually, until the present among the Romans, because there have been many more "alterations." Of course after about the ninth century doctrinal errors began to creep in. That's because that rite developed, also. One might say that Trent was a "commission" that altered it...it was not growth, and certainly not natural.

>If it is refers to the post-1550 rite of the Church of Rome

See above...only in that limited sense.

>For certain I would argue that to use the Tridentine rite as it is and name it after St. Gregory the Great/Dialogian
>to give it the air of being from 1st millenium is deceptive.

I would agree completely and, of course, that was not at all my point. After leaving the Church (and to a lesser extent before), the rites in use in the west gradually became more and more heterodox/heretical and unacceptable for Orthodox use.

But we've strayed a long way from "The ROCOR WRV does still exist, yes?"

Protopriest Anthony
Logged

V. Rev. Protopriest Anthony Nelson
Saint Benedict Russian Orthodox Church
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2014, 01:00:49 AM »

Protopriest Anthony,

I am honoured and inspired that you are part of the commission. In no way do I claim to be a scholar of liturgy, in no way do I desire to avoid proper humility. At the same time, I have read some books on the topic, and have confidence that I my own knowledge of latin liturgy is greater than the average persons.

You have shown by your response to my comments that you are very authentically knowledgeable in the development of the Roman Rite. You are able to speak about it in a clear educated manner which all may understand. You are a better teacher than I. I have confidence that your influence in the Orthodox Church has been and will be a great blessing. Metropolitan Hilarion has great wisdom as a bishop in guiding his flock.

Thank you for participating here. I believe everyone in this forum appreciates your contribution.

I find myself in complete agreement with your statements. Yet I also recognize that being part of the church requires obedience, beyond too much of our own opinions.

I apologize for straying from the topic.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 01:10:20 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2014, 05:52:23 PM »

Another late-comer to the discussion here.

I just need to say that it amazes me how nonchalant you guys are about this. I can only imagine (if even that) how much Orthodox PR would capitalize if the Catholic Church did the same (in "reverse" or whatever you want to call it) with respect to a group of Eastern Catholics.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,252



« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2014, 07:12:23 PM »

Another late-comer to the discussion here.

I just need to say that it amazes me how nonchalant you guys are about this. I can only imagine (if even that) how much Orthodox PR would capitalize if the Catholic Church did the same (in "reverse" or whatever you want to call it) with respect to a group of Eastern Catholics.

It's not entirely analogous because the ROCOR WRV is not a sui iuris church, was not forced to change rites nor disbanded, and is trying to be managed better instead of letting in every uncatechized vagante that walks in the door and causes scandal (so I gathered from these and other discussions, at least). AFAIK, all that changed really is which bishop the WRV is under.

If the Latin Church cracked down on another Eastern Catholic sui iuris church, then I would most definitely complain, but my response would be more nuanced if they were Eastern Rite Latin Catholics.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 07:14:21 PM by Nephi » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,472



« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2014, 07:32:29 PM »

I'm just checking, because I thought it still existed after the thing with Bishop Jerome, but in my reading about Continuing Anglicanism I discovered that one jurisdiction, the Anglican Province of America, actually now has a Vicariate for former Western Orthodox who fled there after ROCOR, as they put it, "abolished" its Western Rite Vicariate. So could someone verify that it still exists?
Yeah, the Anglicans aren't one for supervision.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2014, 11:07:37 AM »

Another late-comer to the discussion here.

I just need to say that it amazes me how nonchalant you guys are about this. I can only imagine (if even that) how much Orthodox PR would capitalize if the Catholic Church did the same (in "reverse" or whatever you want to call it) with respect to a group of Eastern Catholics.

It's not entirely analogous because the ROCOR WRV is not a sui iuris church, was not forced to change rites nor disbanded, and is trying to be managed better instead of letting in every uncatechized vagante that walks in the door and causes scandal (so I gathered from these and other discussions, at least). AFAIK, all that changed really is which bishop the WRV is under.

If the Latin Church cracked down on another Eastern Catholic sui iuris church, then I would most definitely complain, but my response would be more nuanced if they were Eastern Rite Latin Catholics.

Apparently you haven't heard about the Vatican conspiring to not grant the Russian Catholic Church patriarchal status (Reply #10 above).

Seriously folks, where are the complaints against the Orthodox for not granting WRO -- I mean any WRO -- their own patriarchates??

But having said that, I also want to say that I pretty much agree with your way of thinking. To be honest, it has been several months since I looked into the changes that took place last year in the ROCOR WRV (I'll try to do so today) so it's possible that I have misunderstood or misremembered the extent of last years' changes. If, in fact, it's only a matter of changing the criteria for future admissions, then I take back my last post.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,472



« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2014, 11:20:13 AM »

Another late-comer to the discussion here.

I just need to say that it amazes me how nonchalant you guys are about this. I can only imagine (if even that) how much Orthodox PR would capitalize if the Catholic Church did the same (in "reverse" or whatever you want to call it) with respect to a group of Eastern Catholics.

It's not entirely analogous because the ROCOR WRV is not a sui iuris church, was not forced to change rites nor disbanded, and is trying to be managed better instead of letting in every uncatechized vagante that walks in the door and causes scandal (so I gathered from these and other discussions, at least). AFAIK, all that changed really is which bishop the WRV is under.

If the Latin Church cracked down on another Eastern Catholic sui iuris church, then I would most definitely complain, but my response would be more nuanced if they were Eastern Rite Latin Catholics.

Apparently you haven't heard about the Vatican conspiring to not grant the Russian Catholic Church patriarchal status (Reply #10 above).

Seriously folks, where are the complaints against the Orthodox for not granting WRO -- I mean any WRO -- their own patriarchates??
Oh?  Who would be a candidate?

There are plenty of EO who do not have their own patriarchate-Ukraine heading that list.

And why is it that the Vatican's Metropolitan of the Italo-Greeks is not the bishop of Rome?
But having said that, I also want to say that I pretty much agree with your way of thinking. To be honest, it has been several months since I looked into the changes that took place last year in the ROCOR WRV (I'll try to do so today) so it's possible that I have misunderstood or misremembered the extent of last years' changes. If, in fact, it's only a matter of changing the criteria for future admissions, then I take back my last post.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2014, 11:43:06 AM »

Seriously folks, where are the complaints against the Orthodox for not granting WRO -- I mean any WRO -- their own patriarchates??
Oh?  Who would be a candidate?

Honestly, I really wouldn't know. But then, I could ask the same question with regard to the original complaint that "Russian Catholics do not have a patriarch due to the Russian-Vatican agreement with the soviets." What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

And why is it that the Vatican's Metropolitan of the Italo-Greeks is not the bishop of Rome?

Well that's an easy one. Another conspiracy, obviously.

Wink
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2014, 11:49:37 AM »

But having said that, I also want to say that I pretty much agree with your way of thinking. To be honest, it has been several months since I looked into the changes that took place last year in the ROCOR WRV (I'll try to do so today) so it's possible that I have misunderstood or misremembered the extent of last years' changes. If, in fact, it's only a matter of changing the criteria for future admissions, then I take back my last post.

P.S. However, it does not appear that I was mistaken. E.g.,

"8 ) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite."

is clearly talking about existing WRO parishes, not potential future ones.

(Of course, before going further I want to recognize that there have been some who exaggerated the changes. But that's really beside the point.)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,472



« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2014, 01:13:45 PM »

Seriously folks, where are the complaints against the Orthodox for not granting WRO -- I mean any WRO -- their own patriarchates??
Oh?  Who would be a candidate?

Honestly, I really wouldn't know. But then, I could ask the same question with regard to the original complaint that "Russian Catholics do not have a patriarch due to the Russian-Vatican agreement with the soviets." What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
heresy spoils the sauce.  Not to mention signing agreements with the Soviets.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2014, 02:38:03 PM »

heresy spoils the sauce.  Not to mention signing agreements with the Soviets.

Agreed (although I'm not too sure what Calvinism, Zwingliism, Mormonism, etc have to do with the discussion Wink).

But the question remains, if the lack-of-a-Russian-Catholic-patriarchate is "due to the Russian-Vatican agreement with the soviets," then what is the lack-of-a-WRO-patriarchate due to?

Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,252



« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2014, 03:06:40 PM »

But the question remains, if the lack-of-a-Russian-Catholic-patriarchate is "due to the Russian-Vatican agreement with the soviets," then what is the lack-of-a-WRO-patriarchate due to?

I'm not sure anyone would want a "WRO-patriarchate" since we don't have rite-based churches and overlapping jurisdictions are overwhelmingly considered uncanonical (establishing a specific "patriarchate" for the WRO would enshrine such a state).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 03:07:24 PM by Nephi » Logged
Yurysprudentsiya
Section Moderator
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA, although in my heart I will always remain a loving son of the UOC-USA
Posts: 1,489


God, the Great, the Only, Keep for Us Our Ukraine!


« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2014, 03:14:50 PM »

But the question remains, if the lack-of-a-Russian-Catholic-patriarchate is "due to the Russian-Vatican agreement with the soviets," then what is the lack-of-a-WRO-patriarchate due to?

I'm not sure anyone would want a "WRO-patriarchate" since we don't have rite-based churches and overlapping jurisdictions are overwhelmingly considered uncanonical (establishing a specific "patriarchate" for the WRO would enshrine such a state).

+1

"One city, one bishop."

No phyletism, rite based or otherwise.

The Catholic Church's overlapping Sui juris episcopate a demonstrate that their model of unity in diversity is canonically incorrect.

Each city should have one bishop who oversees all parishes in that region, of whatever rite or ethnic background.   Period.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.16 seconds with 72 queries.