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Author Topic: Can a Scientist Believe the Resurrection?  (Read 1614 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 02, 2014, 01:31:00 PM »

"Here I go back to Wittgenstein once more, not this time for a poker but for a famous and haunting aphorism: ‘It is love that believes the resurrection.’ ‘Simon, son of John,’ says Jesus, ‘do you love me?’ There is a whole world in that question, a world of personal invitation and challenge, of the remaking of a human being after disloyalty and disaster, of the refashioning of epistemology itself, the question of how we know things, to correspond to the new ontology, the question of what God’s new world is like. The reality which is the resurrection cannot simply be ‘known’ from within the old world of decay and denial, of tyrants and torture, of disobedience and death. But that’s the point. As I said, the resurrection is not, as it were, a highly peculiar event within the present world, though it is that as well; it is the defining, central, prototypical event of the new creation, the world which is being born with Jesus. If we are even to glimpse this new world, let alone enter it, we will need a different kind of knowing, a knowing which involves us in new ways, an epistemology which draws out from us not just the cool appraisal of detached quasi-scientific research, but the whole-person engagement and involvement for which the best shorthand is ‘love’, in the full Johannine sense of agape."
-- Anglican Bishop N. T Wright
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2014, 03:13:29 PM »


There is a whole world in that question, a world of personal invitation and challenge, of the remaking of a human being after disloyalty and disaster, of the refashioning of epistemology itself, the question of how we know things, to correspond to the new ontology, the question of what God’s new world is like. The reality which is the resurrection cannot simply be ‘known’ from within the old world of decay and denial, of tyrants and torture, of disobedience and death.

But that’s the point.


But this is my point.

Certain styles of writing put me to sleep or I start daydreaming about issues that seem more relevant to me. And it looks like this falls into that category.

Should I try reading the long lecture in the link? Seriously. In your opinion.

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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2014, 05:40:35 PM »

Yes.
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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2014, 06:29:09 PM »

N T wright is hard to read, but he is also the best I have seen of his type.

But to the Question of the subject, there are many scientists who are firm Christians today, and one cannot deny science because it does not fit thier preconceived notions as have many well meaning religions in the past.

100 years ago no one really knew about dinosaurs, other galaxie in the universe, and Harvard refused to teach that we circle the sun, all in the name of religion, this just gives those with eyes to see less reason to believe, when the Church refuses to see the facts.
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2014, 07:25:55 PM »

OK

2-Y:0-N, but I am going to wait until tomorrow because it looks unnecessarily tedious.

If you guys are joking I am never going to speak to you again (this is not a promise but a state of mind, so don't rejoice).
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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2014, 08:41:37 PM »

A scientist can believe in the resurrection if he will start to study ancient and New Testament history. Dr. Gary Habermas is the world's leading authority on the evidence for the resurrection of Christ. The following books were written by heterodox scholars, but I recommend them because they have good information.

The Case For The Resurrection of Jesus, by Habermas and Licona

Assessing the New Testament Evidence for the Historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus (Studies in the Bible and Early Christianity), by William Lane Craig

The Resurrection of Jesus: A New Historiographical Approach, by Licona

The Resurrection of the Son of God, by Wright



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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2014, 09:35:35 PM »

Should I try reading the long lecture in the link? Seriously. In your opinion.
I would say that the last sentence in the quote in my first post, is enough. Empirical science is one type of 'knowing', but not the only type of 'knowing'.
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2014, 04:02:49 AM »

Bp Wright writes under two variants of his name: N. T. Wright for erudite writings for academic theologians, and Tom Wright for ordinary serious, thinking readers. It might be best to read "Surprised by Hope", by Tom Wright, said to be the best book on the resurrection.

To answer the question of the thread, whether a scientist can believe in the resurrection of the body, the word "scientist" is a red herring. The question might as well be, Can anyone belive in the resurrection of the body? Surely the answer must be a resounding Yes, if Christ rose from the dead; and a decisive No if he did not. In the latter case we would be "of all men most miserable". But praise God, he is risen indeed. This is the assurance of a like resurrection for all his people.
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2014, 06:42:55 AM »

Can a scientist believe in the Resurrection? Of course he can! The mark of a good scientist is the humility that comes with knowing that science has allowed us to know a very great deal, but this knowledge only serves to highlight how much we DON'T know, and possibly never will.

Moreover, there are Orthodox saints who were trained in the sciences. A vivid example, and from our times, is St Luke of Simferopol, monk, later bishop, professor, and master surgeon during the Soviet era. His working in a field where scientific knowledge was essential was no barrier to his believing in the Resurrection, nor did it impede his sanctity.
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2014, 08:11:23 AM »

I think the Question is more like "Can Resurrection exist as a Scientific Methodology".
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2014, 02:59:27 PM »

Why do we persist in giving credence (as Orthodox) this myth that science and Christianity are incompatible?  They're not.  So the answer to the question is an unequivocal "yes."  Science answers how questions, it is remarkably unable to give us answer to the why questions, hence the need for Christianity.
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2014, 04:50:06 PM »

I think the Question is more like "Can Resurrection exist as a Scientific Methodology".

I would say that the scientific method is really unable to touch certain things. And that's fine.
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2014, 04:50:46 PM »

Why do we persist in giving credence (as Orthodox) this myth that science and Christianity are incompatible?  They're not.  So the answer to the question is an unequivocal "yes."  Science answers how questions, it is remarkably unable to give us answer to the why questions, hence the need for Christianity.

There are even how questions which science is incapable of answering.
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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2014, 12:15:52 AM »

Why do we persist in giving credence (as Orthodox) this myth that science and Christianity are incompatible?  They're not.  So the answer to the question is an unequivocal "yes."  Science answers how questions, it is remarkably unable to give us answer to the why questions, hence the need for Christianity.

There are even how questions which science is incapable of answering.

For some reason, this this reminded me of a satirical newspaper article:

"For centuries, we have embraced the pursuit of scientific knowledge as one of the noblest and worthiest of human endeavors, one leading to the enrichment of mankind both today and for future generations," said keynote speaker and NSF chairman Louis Farian. "However, a breakthrough discovery is challenging our long-held perceptions about our discipline—the discovery that science is really, really hard."

"My area of expertise is the totally impossible science of particle physics," Farian continued, "but, indeed, this newly discovered 'Law of Difficulty' holds true for all branches of science, from astronomy to molecular biology and everything in between."

More here: http://www.theonion.com/articles/national-science-foundation-science-hard,1405/

Random thoughts:
Critiquing my own post. "For some reason" spells disaster, Why introduce something you obviously have no answer to? How can this serve a purpose? At least the way it is stated. Cite research that is trying to discover why some people are satisfied with "for some reason". Does it have implications towards mental stability? (And of course the next question to be answered is what is mental stability?) What is the  evolutionary utility of this attitude? Why wasn't the avoidance habits of Zebra fish used as a genetic system to help discover its root causes in humans?  The list endlessly goes on.
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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2014, 04:55:44 PM »


Certain styles of writing put me to sleep or I start daydreaming about issues that seem more relevant to me. And it looks like this falls into that category.


"Of course, as it were..."
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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2014, 07:10:46 PM »

Why do we persist in giving credence (as Orthodox) this myth that science and Christianity are incompatible?  They're not.  So the answer to the question is an unequivocal "yes."  Science answers how questions, it is remarkably unable to give us answer to the why questions, hence the need for Christianity.

There are even how questions which science is incapable of answering.

For some reason, this this reminded me of a satirical newspaper article:

"For centuries, we have embraced the pursuit of scientific knowledge as one of the noblest and worthiest of human endeavors, one leading to the enrichment of mankind both today and for future generations," said keynote speaker and NSF chairman Louis Farian. "However, a breakthrough discovery is challenging our long-held perceptions about our discipline—the discovery that science is really, really hard."

"My area of expertise is the totally impossible science of particle physics," Farian continued, "but, indeed, this newly discovered 'Law of Difficulty' holds true for all branches of science, from astronomy to molecular biology and everything in between."

More here: http://www.theonion.com/articles/national-science-foundation-science-hard,1405/

Random thoughts:
Critiquing my own post. "For some reason" spells disaster, Why introduce something you obviously have no answer to? How can this serve a purpose? At least the way it is stated. Cite research that is trying to discover why some people are satisfied with "for some reason". Does it have implications towards mental stability? (And of course the next question to be answered is what is mental stability?) What is the  evolutionary utility of this attitude? Why wasn't the avoidance habits of Zebra fish used as a genetic system to help discover its root causes in humans?  The list endlessly goes on.

Opus > The Onion
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2014, 07:14:03 PM »

Why do we persist in giving credence (as Orthodox) this myth that science and Christianity are incompatible?  They're not.  So the answer to the question is an unequivocal "yes."  Science answers how questions, it is remarkably unable to give us answer to the why questions, hence the need for Christianity.

Why does science answer how questions?
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2014, 07:18:27 PM »

Why do we persist in giving credence (as Orthodox) this myth that science and Christianity are incompatible?  They're not.  So the answer to the question is an unequivocal "yes."  Science answers how questions, it is remarkably unable to give us answer to the why questions, hence the need for Christianity.

Why does science answer how questions?
How can you ask such a question?
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2014, 07:28:11 PM »

Why do we persist in giving credence (as Orthodox) this myth that science and Christianity are incompatible?  They're not.  So the answer to the question is an unequivocal "yes."  Science answers how questions, it is remarkably unable to give us answer to the why questions, hence the need for Christianity.

Why does science answer how questions?
How can you ask such a question?

Why can you ask such a question, angel
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2014, 09:34:03 PM »

One can look at it this way: God is the epitome of Science He is the very origin of Science as we know it.  The problem is, that Science wants to remove God from the equation and then force feed us with theoretical reasons for our being.  Ergo, Theory remains theory and not fact.
A God fearing person or Scientist for that matter can and has believed in the Resurrection for a person can be both scientific and Religious.  I see no contradiction.  Since God is the source, man can only prove what God has set in motion.  If you are a Religious man and you know ALL things are possible through God then the Resurrection is not a stretch to a scientist who is a believer. 
IF, the scientist is not a believer then he is only left with one conclusion and that is :  He is his own god and will continue to struggle with the question.
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2014, 09:51:28 PM »

Sir Isaac Newton believed in the resurrection.
Sir Isaac Newton was a scientist.
Ergo...
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« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2014, 03:43:20 AM »

Isaac Newton was also a staunch believer in alchemy... those crazy science geek types.  Cool
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« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2014, 05:50:13 AM »

Isaac Newton was also a staunch believer in alchemy... those crazy science geek types.  Cool
Indeed; Sir Isaac was also an Arian, ergo a scientist can believe in Arianism.

Too little or too much can be made of such things. The very question raised by this thread borders on what many prominent philosophers of science have referred to as scientism.[1]

A proposition that nothing should be believed other than that which is arrived at via scientific method would itself be a proposition not arrived at by scientific method and therefore unbelievable according to its own criteria.[2]
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"Scientism is a term used to refer to belief in the universal applicability of the scientific method and approach, and the view that empirical science constitutes the most authoritative worldview or most valuable part of human learning to the exclusion of other viewpoints.[1] It has been defined as "the view that the characteristic inductive methods of the natural sciences are the only source of genuine factual knowledge and, in particular, that they alone can yield true knowledge about man and society."[2] An individual who subscribes to scientism is referred to as a scientismist.[3][4][5][6][7] The term scientism frequently implies a critique of the more extreme expressions of logical positivism[8][9] and has been used by social scientists such as Friedrich Hayek,[10] philosophers of science such as Karl Popper,[11] and philosophers such as Hilary Putnam[12] and Tzvetan Todorov[13] to describe the dogmatic endorsement of scientific methodology and the reduction of all knowledge to only that which is measurable.[14] "Scientism" has also been taken over as a name for the view that science is the only reliable source of knowledge by philosophers such as Alexander Rosenberg.[15] Scientism may refer to science applied "in excess". The term scientism can apply in either of two senses: To indicate the improper usage of science or scientific claims.[16] This usage applies equally in contexts where science might not apply,[17] such as when the topic is perceived to be beyond the scope of scientific inquiry, and in contexts where there is insufficient empirical evidence to justify a scientific conclusion. It includes an excessive deference to claims made by scientists or an uncritical eagerness to accept any result described as scientific. In this case, the term is a counterargument to appeals to scientific authority.
To refer to "the belief that the methods of natural science, or the categories and things recognized in natural science, form the only proper elements in any philosophical or other inquiry,"[18] or that "science, and only science, describes the world as it is in itself, independent of perspective"[12] with a concomitant "elimination of the psychological dimensions of experience."[19][20] The term is also used by historians, philosophers, and cultural critics to highlight the possible dangers of lapses towards excessive reductionism in all fields of human knowledge.[21][22][23][24][25] For social theorists in the tradition of Max Weber, such as Jürgen Habermas and Max Horkheimer, the concept of scientism relates significantly to the philosophy of positivism, but also to the cultural rationalization of the modern West.[14][26] British writer and feminist thinker Sara Maitland has called scientism a "myth as pernicious as any sort of fundamentalism."[27]

[2]Cf. Frederick Suppe, The Structure of Scientific Theories (University of Chicago Press) for the gradual demise and final repudiation of the once predominate paradigm of Logical Positivism and the Verifiability Principle as a criterion of meaning.
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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2014, 09:23:57 AM »

Bp Wright writes under two variants of his name: N. T. Wright for erudite writings for academic theologians, and Tom Wright for ordinary serious, thinking readers. It might be best to read "Surprised by Hope", by Tom Wright, said to be the best book on the resurrection.

To answer the question of the thread, whether a scientist can believe in the resurrection of the body, the word "scientist" is a red herring. The question might as well be, Can anyone belive in the resurrection of the body? Surely the answer must be a resounding Yes, if Christ rose from the dead; and a decisive No if he did not. In the latter case we would be "of all men most miserable". But praise God, he is risen indeed. This is the assurance of a like resurrection for all his people.

I know 100% that the resurection happened as I've seen proof with my own eyes. Enoguh to scare me into not questioning the authenticity of the Gospel of John, and it scared me enough to stop eating pork. That's what sent me over the edge was seing the proof of the resurection. Till this day it scares me.. I mean.. Anyone can simply find the proof, but they wont bother.

The more faith dwindles, the more God puts out proof for those who want to find it. Very few these days want to find it. The Baptist community has restored my faith in God to an unshakeable level. The Born Again community in the US make up 200 MILLION people and have the highest percentage of any faith that believe God created us. 85% compared to 40% of Catholics and 15% Jews.

Thanks to the Baptists for their amazing works and in contributing to my new levels of faith that is now unshakeable thanks to you guys. I fealt born again after the evidence of the resurection and am very God fearing now.
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« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2014, 11:01:18 AM »

I know 100% that the resurection happened as I've seen proof with my own eyes. Enoguh to scare me into not questioning the authenticity of the Gospel of John, and it scared me enough to stop eating pork. That's what sent me over the edge was seing the proof of the resurection. Till this day it scares me.. I mean.. Anyone can simply find the proof, but they wont bother.

What was the proof you saw?  How can anyone find it?
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« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2014, 12:09:03 PM »

Why do we persist in giving credence (as Orthodox) this myth that science and Christianity are incompatible?  They're not.  So the answer to the question is an unequivocal "yes."  Science answers how questions, it is remarkably unable to give us answer to the why questions, hence the need for Christianity.

Why does science answer how questions?

Rather, you should say, how does science answer how questions. 
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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2014, 12:11:45 PM »

Isaac Newton was also a staunch believer in alchemy... those crazy science geek types.  Cool
Indeed; Sir Isaac was also an Arian, ergo a scientist can believe in Arianism.

Too little or too much can be made of such things. The very question raised by this thread borders on what many prominent philosophers of science have referred to as scientism.[1]

A proposition that nothing should be believed other than that which is arrived at via scientific method would itself be a proposition not arrived at by scientific method and therefore unbelievable according to its own criteria.[2]
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"Scientism is a term used to refer to belief in the universal applicability of the scientific method and approach, and the view that empirical science constitutes the most authoritative worldview or most valuable part of human learning to the exclusion of other viewpoints.[1] It has been defined as "the view that the characteristic inductive methods of the natural sciences are the only source of genuine factual knowledge and, in particular, that they alone can yield true knowledge about man and society."[2] An individual who subscribes to scientism is referred to as a scientismist.[3][4][5][6][7] The term scientism frequently implies a critique of the more extreme expressions of logical positivism[8][9] and has been used by social scientists such as Friedrich Hayek,[10] philosophers of science such as Karl Popper,[11] and philosophers such as Hilary Putnam[12] and Tzvetan Todorov[13] to describe the dogmatic endorsement of scientific methodology and the reduction of all knowledge to only that which is measurable.[14] "Scientism" has also been taken over as a name for the view that science is the only reliable source of knowledge by philosophers such as Alexander Rosenberg.[15] Scientism may refer to science applied "in excess". The term scientism can apply in either of two senses: To indicate the improper usage of science or scientific claims.[16] This usage applies equally in contexts where science might not apply,[17] such as when the topic is perceived to be beyond the scope of scientific inquiry, and in contexts where there is insufficient empirical evidence to justify a scientific conclusion. It includes an excessive deference to claims made by scientists or an uncritical eagerness to accept any result described as scientific. In this case, the term is a counterargument to appeals to scientific authority.
To refer to "the belief that the methods of natural science, or the categories and things recognized in natural science, form the only proper elements in any philosophical or other inquiry,"[18] or that "science, and only science, describes the world as it is in itself, independent of perspective"[12] with a concomitant "elimination of the psychological dimensions of experience."[19][20] The term is also used by historians, philosophers, and cultural critics to highlight the possible dangers of lapses towards excessive reductionism in all fields of human knowledge.[21][22][23][24][25] For social theorists in the tradition of Max Weber, such as Jürgen Habermas and Max Horkheimer, the concept of scientism relates significantly to the philosophy of positivism, but also to the cultural rationalization of the modern West.[14][26] British writer and feminist thinker Sara Maitland has called scientism a "myth as pernicious as any sort of fundamentalism."[27]

[2]Cf. Frederick Suppe, The Structure of Scientific Theories (University of Chicago Press) for the gradual demise and final repudiation of the once predominate paradigm of Logical Positivism and the Verifiability Principle as a criterion of meaning.

Scientism is a name for the dangerous temptation of the academy.  My field is the most important one and explains everything.  Why?   Because I have chosen it, of course.   When an expert loses his humility dangerous things can happen. 
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« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2014, 04:42:46 PM »

I know 100% that the resurection happened as I've seen proof with my own eyes. Enoguh to scare me into not questioning the authenticity of the Gospel of John, and it scared me enough to stop eating pork. That's what sent me over the edge was seing the proof of the resurection. Till this day it scares me.. I mean.. Anyone can simply find the proof, but they wont bother.

What was the proof you saw?  How can anyone find it?

Well you could have found it if you were interested but heres a summary video which no one will likely watch. After i spent maybe 20 hours or so researching all sides, it put the fear of God in me and caused me to stop eating pork when I found out it was a direct order and then i began to take the afterlife seriously. I have two BBQ smokers outside. One charcoal and one gas. So Im trying to demonstrate how i take it for real and am putting money where my mouth is. Of course, most are scoffers and havent spent any time researching the other side of Evolution and c14 dating so they still show blind trust to science. But anyhow, here's the video and gift for those who want it. Maybe one person will see the light but I doubt it:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9BFaKKmxYI

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« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2014, 04:50:51 PM »

I know 100% that the resurection happened as I've seen proof with my own eyes. Enoguh to scare me into not questioning the authenticity of the Gospel of John, and it scared me enough to stop eating pork. That's what sent me over the edge was seing the proof of the resurection. Till this day it scares me.. I mean.. Anyone can simply find the proof, but they wont bother.

What was the proof you saw?  How can anyone find it?

Well you could have found it if you were interested but heres a summary video which no one will likely watch. After i spent maybe 20 hours or so researching all sides, it put the fear of God in me and caused me to stop eating pork when I found out it was a direct order and then i began to take the afterlife seriously. I have two BBQ smokers outside. One charcoal and one gas. So Im trying to demonstrate how i take it for real and am putting money where my mouth is. Of course, most are scoffers and havent spent any time researching the other side of Evolution and c14 dating so they still show blind trust to science. But anyhow, here's the video and gift for those who want it. Maybe one person will see the light but I doubt it:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9BFaKKmxYI



I promise to watch it. Then again I promised someone in 2011 or so that I would watch Hoop Dreams . . .
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« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2014, 06:15:04 PM »

I know 100% that the resurection happened as I've seen proof with my own eyes. Enoguh to scare me into not questioning the authenticity of the Gospel of John, and it scared me enough to stop eating pork. That's what sent me over the edge was seing the proof of the resurection. Till this day it scares me.. I mean.. Anyone can simply find the proof, but they wont bother.

What was the proof you saw?  How can anyone find it?

Well you could have found it if you were interested but heres a summary video which no one will likely watch. After i spent maybe 20 hours or so researching all sides, it put the fear of God in me and caused me to stop eating pork when I found out it was a direct order and then i began to take the afterlife seriously. I have two BBQ smokers outside. One charcoal and one gas. So Im trying to demonstrate how i take it for real and am putting money where my mouth is. Of course, most are scoffers and havent spent any time researching the other side of Evolution and c14 dating so they still show blind trust to science. But anyhow, here's the video and gift for those who want it. Maybe one person will see the light but I doubt it:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9BFaKKmxYI



I promise to watch it. Then again I promised someone in 2011 or so that I would watch Hoop Dreams . . .

Are you comparing the importance of the video to that of hoop dreams? Hehe

The video is just a basic summary that doesnt go in depth at all. It's meant for the young Christians in college who are leaving the faith by the truckloads. It offers a seed into further research. It should scare you and put fear into you that you feel obligated to research further.

But if people go into the actual task of looking at 200 hours of evolution 'science', c14, and radio-icotope dating, as well as 20 hours of the above videos, then they wont be left without beleif in the resurection.
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« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2014, 06:40:17 PM »

It offers a seed into further research. It should scare you and put fear into you that you feel obligated to research further.

Less research. More thinking.
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« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2014, 06:56:27 PM »

I know 100% that the resurection happened as I've seen proof with my own eyes. Enoguh to scare me into not questioning the authenticity of the Gospel of John, and it scared me enough to stop eating pork. That's what sent me over the edge was seing the proof of the resurection. Till this day it scares me.. I mean.. Anyone can simply find the proof, but they wont bother.

What was the proof you saw?  How can anyone find it?

Well you could have found it if you were interested but heres a summary video which no one will likely watch. After i spent maybe 20 hours or so researching all sides, it put the fear of God in me and caused me to stop eating pork when I found out it was a direct order and then i began to take the afterlife seriously. I have two BBQ smokers outside. One charcoal and one gas. So Im trying to demonstrate how i take it for real and am putting money where my mouth is. Of course, most are scoffers and havent spent any time researching the other side of Evolution and c14 dating so they still show blind trust to science. But anyhow, here's the video and gift for those who want it. Maybe one person will see the light but I doubt it:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9BFaKKmxYI



I promise to watch it. Then again I promised someone in 2011 or so that I would watch Hoop Dreams . . .

Are you comparing the importance of the video to that of hoop dreams? Hehe

The video is just a basic summary that doesnt go in depth at all. It's meant for the young Christians in college who are leaving the faith by the truckloads. It offers a seed into further research. It should scare you and put fear into you that you feel obligated to research further.

But if people go into the actual task of looking at 200 hours of evolution 'science', c14, and radio-icotope dating, as well as 20 hours of the above videos, then they wont be left without beleif in the resurection.

Faith based on just this type of evidence will fail, true faith must come from the heart.Jesus warned that those who must have incontrovertible evidence will never really believe (Lk 16:31).

He also said it was better to believe not having seen what the disciples saw.

John 20:29 ►

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
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« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2014, 07:40:56 PM »

I know 100% that the resurection happened as I've seen proof with my own eyes. Enoguh to scare me into not questioning the authenticity of the Gospel of John, and it scared me enough to stop eating pork. That's what sent me over the edge was seing the proof of the resurection. Till this day it scares me.. I mean.. Anyone can simply find the proof, but they wont bother.

What was the proof you saw?  How can anyone find it?

Well you could have found it if you were interested but heres a summary video which no one will likely watch. After i spent maybe 20 hours or so researching all sides, it put the fear of God in me and caused me to stop eating pork when I found out it was a direct order and then i began to take the afterlife seriously. I have two BBQ smokers outside. One charcoal and one gas. So Im trying to demonstrate how i take it for real and am putting money where my mouth is. Of course, most are scoffers and havent spent any time researching the other side of Evolution and c14 dating so they still show blind trust to science. But anyhow, here's the video and gift for those who want it. Maybe one person will see the light but I doubt it:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9BFaKKmxYI



I watched it.  If I didn't accept the Shroud as authentic (and I tend to accept it), I'm not sure this video would convince me.  The animated paintings made for an entertaining twenty minutes or so, but I'm not sure what about this presentation convinced you of the truth of the Resurrection or of the need to keep kosher.   
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« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2014, 07:28:01 AM »

It offers a seed into further research. It should scare you and put fear into you that you feel obligated to research further.

Less research. More thinking.

You mean more 'thinking' about how we should play God and end other peoples lives as your sig suggests?

That is a huge sin and screams of the Church of Secular Humanism as one of their 'pillars' of Faith is that very same thing.
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« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2014, 08:04:00 AM »

I know 100% that the resurection happened as I've seen proof with my own eyes. Enoguh to scare me into not questioning the authenticity of the Gospel of John, and it scared me enough to stop eating pork. That's what sent me over the edge was seing the proof of the resurection. Till this day it scares me.. I mean.. Anyone can simply find the proof, but they wont bother.

What was the proof you saw?  How can anyone find it?

Well you could have found it if you were interested but heres a summary video which no one will likely watch. After i spent maybe 20 hours or so researching all sides, it put the fear of God in me and caused me to stop eating pork when I found out it was a direct order and then i began to take the afterlife seriously. I have two BBQ smokers outside. One charcoal and one gas. So Im trying to demonstrate how i take it for real and am putting money where my mouth is. Of course, most are scoffers and havent spent any time researching the other side of Evolution and c14 dating so they still show blind trust to science. But anyhow, here's the video and gift for those who want it. Maybe one person will see the light but I doubt it:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9BFaKKmxYI



I promise to watch it. Then again I promised someone in 2011 or so that I would watch Hoop Dreams . . .

Are you comparing the importance of the video to that of hoop dreams? Hehe

The video is just a basic summary that doesnt go in depth at all. It's meant for the young Christians in college who are leaving the faith by the truckloads. It offers a seed into further research. It should scare you and put fear into you that you feel obligated to research further.

But if people go into the actual task of looking at 200 hours of evolution 'science', c14, and radio-icotope dating, as well as 20 hours of the above videos, then they wont be left without beleif in the resurection.

Faith based on just this type of evidence will fail, true faith must come from the heart.Jesus warned that those who must have incontrovertible evidence will never really believe (Lk 16:31).

He also said it was better to believe not having seen what the disciples saw.

John 20:29 ►

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

I agree.

God does not give 100% proof on anything. If he did, this would take away our free will. This is something the Jews always say. Satan needs his room to work and go counter to what God wants.

However, I do believe that God allows a 'balance' of evidence for those that are seeking and want more info. So for instance, when the Bible came under heavy scrutiny and Christians stated to drop out of the Church, surprise surprise, God allows the Isaiah scrolls to be found validating the accuracy if the Bible word for word accurate, AND, further giving evidence that Isaiah was not tampered with and added to, AND, wouldnt ya know, it got found during the discussions of forming the state of Israel in 1947.

When the Internet gets completely overwhellmed with darkness and Atheism/Humanism, God will always throw a bone formthose who seek. Then new evidence comes out anout the shroud.

I saw all the videos about 20 hours worth and am sold 100% that it is the shroud. The BBC one goes most in depth but their all good.

Like you need to understand - a 3d holographic image in a NEGATIVE form is on the shroud that only shows up if you take a negative photo.. It takes UV light to examine the crown blood marks. This would have been i possible to hoax. If you only saw the in depth documentaries youd be a believer. The fruit is there for the picking for thos who want it. God makes this available for you.

What scared me and freaked me out was the magical light that must have burned in the negative image into the fabric. The 3d topography computer system does not work with any photos EXCEPT this shroud. The guy who owns the company says its the only picture on earth thats able to make a 3d image of a face. Someone made a 3d image of his whole body. Also theres a third piece in the shroud that is already in a museum and matches the shroud. All this stuff is in the documentaries.

The third shroud piece VALIDATES the Gospel of John. I never said it on the forum publically but I was never quite a believer in Johns authenticity (as well as many other schollars) but what this third piece does, is validate Johns Gospel as true. This is God allowing evidence and proofs to be placed out there for those who seek.

I went from being a believer with an ego, to now fearing God. As soon as I validated God said not to eat pork i swear on my life didnt eat a single piece since then. I became 'one of those people'. I swear to you i have two smokers, i have pictures of my smoked pork butt, and bacon and im giving up all of that. I can only smoke corned beef now. This is all due to fear of God after the shroud research and everything else i know.

Jews say too much faith is a bad thing. You should 'know' with some certainty. After all, this is required to fewr God. Supposedly God likes those who are stubborn and ask for lots of proofs because he ensures youll be provided with answers. Enough to give you 100% certainty. This scales along with the times. In the old days, you could show people a crying statue and that would be enough for 100% proof. Today, God gives assurance through prooofs that are compatible with modern times. At least thats what the Jews say. And whats funny is the Muslims say that God essentially beamed him back up. I studied a lot about the Jinn too. It all fits so well together.
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« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2014, 08:16:22 AM »

I know 100% that the resurection happened as I've seen proof with my own eyes. Enoguh to scare me into not questioning the authenticity of the Gospel of John, and it scared me enough to stop eating pork. That's what sent me over the edge was seing the proof of the resurection. Till this day it scares me.. I mean.. Anyone can simply find the proof, but they wont bother.

What was the proof you saw?  How can anyone find it?

Well you could have found it if you were interested but heres a summary video which no one will likely watch. After i spent maybe 20 hours or so researching all sides, it put the fear of God in me and caused me to stop eating pork when I found out it was a direct order and then i began to take the afterlife seriously. I have two BBQ smokers outside. One charcoal and one gas. So Im trying to demonstrate how i take it for real and am putting money where my mouth is. Of course, most are scoffers and havent spent any time researching the other side of Evolution and c14 dating so they still show blind trust to science. But anyhow, here's the video and gift for those who want it. Maybe one person will see the light but I doubt it:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9BFaKKmxYI



I watched it.  If I didn't accept the Shroud as authentic (and I tend to accept it), I'm not sure this video would convince me.  The animated paintings made for an entertaining twenty minutes or so, but I'm not sure what about this presentation convinced you of the truth of the Resurrection or of the need to keep kosher.   

No that video is just a basic summary. You need to watch the 1 hour bbc documentaries and such to get the fear of God placed in you. Theres so much more evidence that makes it impossible to forger. Of course God doesnt take away free will so he doesnt hand stuff to us on a silver platter.

This is why we chime the incense around. We cloud the vision as God does to us. He doesnt make things black and white, everything is in shades of grey. We need to be reminded that we dont have full clarity in this life.

If it wasnt for the new shroud evidence, then i wouldnt have stopped eating pork trust me. I now want to be in compliance as best I can. The muslims said that God beamed Jesus back up. Supposedly this whole spirit world is around us and we cant see it. The Jews and muslims are already ver aware of this. So is our Church why is why the toll houses intregued me so much. They can come in and out of our realm easily. We know that to have this effect would require light. So strong it would be some sort of radiation type of light.
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« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2014, 11:03:39 AM »

You mean more 'thinking' about how we should play God and end other peoples lives as your sig suggests?

We already do that. We just put upside-down parameters on when and how and why it's done.

And by think more I mean actually think more. More thinking. Anyone with even a bachelors degree in a scientific discipline will have done far more than 200 hours of research/study. Probably more like 1200 hours. If they disagree with you, then what? What you are looking for is not in the research, it's what you do with it.
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« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2014, 07:04:39 PM »

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As soon as I validated God said not to eat pork i swear on my life didnt eat a single piece since then. I became 'one of those people'. I swear to you i have two smokers, i have pictures of my smoked pork butt, and bacon and im giving up all of that. I can only smoke corned beef now.

Umm, Cackles, Orthodox Christians are not bound to keep Jewish food laws. The eating of pork is permitted. From Acts 10:

9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”

14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.


This passage also speaks of the acceptance of non-Jews as Christians, of course, but the fact that Christ completed and fulfilled the old Law means we are no longer under it. So kosher food laws or any element of them don't apply to Christians.
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« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2014, 10:25:37 PM »

No that video is just a basic summary. You need to watch the 1 hour bbc documentaries and such to get the fear of God placed in you. Theres so much more evidence that makes it impossible to forger. Of course God doesnt take away free will so he doesnt hand stuff to us on a silver platter.

Since I generally accept the Shroud's authenticity, and I already spent twenty minutes watching animated paintings with voice over from an audio Bible, I'd rather not waste time.  What is in the one hour BBC documentary that constitutes "the fear of God"? 

Quote
This is why we chime the incense around. We cloud the vision as God does to us. He doesnt make things black and white, everything is in shades of grey. We need to be reminded that we dont have full clarity in this life.

This is not why we use incense, even if it is a sufficiently interesting imagery. 

Quote
If it wasnt for the new shroud evidence, then i wouldnt have stopped eating pork trust me.

This is what I'm really interested in.  What was it about the Shroud's authenticity that convinced you to keep kosher? 
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« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2014, 10:13:48 AM »

The one who accepts scientism or naturalism cannot believe in the Resurrection because they exclude it as possible event in the first place.  A scientist who believes neither of these principles can believe in Resurrection.
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« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2014, 09:24:14 AM »

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As soon as I validated God said not to eat pork i swear on my life didnt eat a single piece since then. I became 'one of those people'. I swear to you i have two smokers, i have pictures of my smoked pork butt, and bacon and im giving up all of that. I can only smoke corned beef now.

Umm, Cackles, Orthodox Christians are not bound to keep Jewish food laws. The eating of pork is permitted. From Acts 10:

9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”

14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.


This passage also speaks of the acceptance of non-Jews as Christians, of course, but the fact that Christ completed and fulfilled the old Law means we are no longer under it. So kosher food laws or any element of them don't apply to Christians.

I spent hours debating those passages and going over all the evidence (while i had 2 McDonalds sausage and egg McMuffins in the fridge). I checked what our church said, the catholics, the evangelicals, and of course the Rabbi's.

I found the truth to be that the command was directly from God and valid until this day without excuse. I checked  about a dozen translations of the above story and picked it apart.

What happened is, Peter was part of a Sect of Jews who didnt believe... Actually you know what maybe i shouldnt go into it because Paul says Im not allowed to promote dietary things because it can lead to 'whos a better christian' which breaks the first and tenth commandment and is against Paul saying not to specifically regarding this issue.

So i dont want to tell my reasoning. Also theres alot of Jewish things that their Rabbi's fabricated like 'ewting Kosher'. You wouldnt believe what the bible says about that - dont boil a kid in his mothers milk. Thats all it says. This whole nonsense of Kosher was man made.

Oh btw i did buy chicken bacon and am AMAZED at how good it is. It yields much more bacon and you can taste it through the sandwich. I have no clue how they got it to taste so close.

I only bring up the bacon because Im trying to convey that it put the fear of God in me.

This weekend after doing watching near death experience videos.. Wow.. It scared me. Seeing an agnostic surgen telling the freaky things he's seen. Reliable sources of people and their accounts. Some people went down to hell. Those that did completely changed their lives around.
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« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2014, 09:28:37 AM »

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I found the truth to be that the command was directly from God and valid until this day without excuse. I checked  about a dozen translations of the above story and picked it apart.

What happened is, Peter was part of a Sect of Jews who didnt believe...

Utter nonsense, from the Orthodox standpoint. Please, speak to your priest about these matters.

You been talking to Ralph Ellis? Because your posts are sounding a lot like his.
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« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2014, 09:55:56 AM »

This whole nonsense of Kosher was man made.
Kashrut is man-made, and yet you follow kashrut?
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« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2014, 01:51:52 PM »

I only bring up the bacon because Im trying to convey that it put the fear of God in me.

Cackles has become the most consistent .sig worthy material generating poster around here.
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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
xariskai
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« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2014, 03:13:19 PM »

Peter was part of a Sect of Jews who didnt believe...
So St. Peter was not a Christian?
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