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Offline Didyma

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LGBT Saints?
« on: February 25, 2014, 07:19:36 PM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2014, 07:35:13 PM »
Fr. Seraphim Rose.

He isn't officially a Saint, though sometimes he is venerated as one.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 07:35:44 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

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Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2014, 07:35:23 PM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

Although he is not formally canonized, Fr. Seraphim Rose, admired by many as a very holy man and a great teacher of the faith, lived with a male partner before he became Orthodox.  He was then a monastic.  

But don't confuse saints who had homosexual inclinations with practicing homosexuals.   The church makes a distinction.  

Offline Elisha

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2014, 07:36:28 PM »
But don't confuse saints who had homosexual inclinations with practicing homosexuals.   The church makes a distinction.  

+1

Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2014, 08:06:59 PM »
But don't confuse saints who had homosexual inclinations with practicing homosexuals.   The church makes a distinction.  

+1

If the truth were known, there are probably many many saints in times of old, probably many of them monastics, with such inclinations but who never spoke of it except perhaps to a confessor, and so we have no record of that aspect of their lives. 

Offline Papist

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2014, 08:12:24 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?
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Offline Rambam

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2014, 08:57:34 PM »

Online xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2014, 09:12:54 PM »
What about these guys?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergius_and_Bacchus



Assuming they truly had something together, which some dispute.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2014, 09:13:21 PM »
Perhaps the "we have a saint for that!" approach is the wrong one, here.
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2014, 09:15:01 PM »
What about these guys?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergius_and_Bacchus



Certain people have attempted to appropriate these saints as posterboys for the gay lobby, including the notorious artist Robert Lentz, who painted this image to promote them as a couple of homosexual lovers to suit their own sociopolitical agendas.
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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2014, 09:15:36 PM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries? Can we posthomously ascribe people identities they didn't claim?

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2014, 09:36:22 PM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries?
Yes, e.g., the hijra in south Asia, and the two-spirit in Native American cultures.
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2014, 09:37:06 PM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries? Can we posthomously ascribe people identities they didn't claim?

I don't think so.  My understanding was that the poster was searching for examples of Orthodox saints who struggled with same sex attraction or gender identity issues in their lives.  There may be some historical record of such persons.  

Offline Didyma

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2014, 09:41:34 PM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries? Can we posthomously ascribe people identities they didn't claim?

I don't think so.  My understanding was that the poster was searching for examples of Orthodox saints who struggled with same sex attraction or gender identity issues in their lives.  There may be some historical record of such persons.  

Yes, that's it.
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Offline Didyma

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2014, 09:43:33 PM »
Perhaps the "we have a saint for that!" approach is the wrong one, here.

I never intended that to be a focus, but I thought it would help if she thought that because we don't honor these lifestyles we don't respect the people.  That's a common chain of thoughts nowadays.
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Offline Didyma

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2014, 09:44:54 PM »
But don't confuse saints who had homosexual inclinations with practicing homosexuals.   The church makes a distinction.  

+1

If the truth were known, there are probably many many saints in times of old, probably many of them monastics, with such inclinations but who never spoke of it except perhaps to a confessor, and so we have no record of that aspect of their lives. 

That's what I suspected, but I haven't read many hagiographies, so.....
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Offline Tallitot

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2014, 09:48:53 PM »
There was a thread on "Lesbian Saints of the Orthodox Church" a coupl'a years ago:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33286.0.html
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2014, 09:53:58 PM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries? Can we posthomously ascribe people identities they didn't claim?

I don't think so.  My understanding was that the poster was searching for examples of Orthodox saints who struggled with same sex attraction or gender identity issues in their lives.  There may be some historical record of such persons. 

Yes, that's it.


There really wasn't a concept of 'homosexuality' in the ancient world, they were just seen as deviants. Even in the early copies of the DSM, homosexuality was seen as a deviant psychological thing. We've come to acknowledge the concept of homosexuality now, in the modern age; not so in the past.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 09:54:18 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline Velsigne

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2014, 11:28:09 PM »
Perhaps the "we have a saint for that!" approach is the wrong one, here.

Yes.
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2014, 11:44:21 PM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries? Can we posthomously ascribe people identities they didn't claim?

I don't think so.  My understanding was that the poster was searching for examples of Orthodox saints who struggled with same sex attraction or gender identity issues in their lives.  There may be some historical record of such persons.  

Yes, that's it.


There really wasn't a concept of 'homosexuality' in the ancient world, they were just seen as deviants. Even in the early copies of the DSM, homosexuality was seen as a deviant psychological thing. We've come to acknowledge the concept of homosexuality now, in the modern age; not so in the past.

Not really.  It was standard fare in some places if you're talking ancient like BC ancient.  If ancient means Victorian age, well, boarding school boys continued that aspect of classical education but it had to be hidden as did a lot of other things.  

Didyma friend would be correct in noting that fornication is not acceptable practice in Christianity.   I think Didyma might want to talk about this topic with the priest who is catechizing him/her.  

To add, I don't really understand the want to be a man issue and what all that involves, so maybe the fornication thing is not applicable to her or Didyma's concerns. 

« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 11:50:00 PM by Velsigne »
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2014, 11:58:34 PM »
This thread is so gay.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2014, 12:33:31 AM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries? Can we posthomously ascribe people identities they didn't claim?

No. But certain idiots attempt to do so.
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2014, 12:49:00 AM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries? Can we posthomously ascribe people identities they didn't claim?

No. But certain idiots attempt to do so.
We do that all the time Hinterlander. Here it bugs sone people bc we're talking about teh gayz but otherwise I dunno, gonna go a bit Yeshuawhatever here, when you see an icon where XC is wearing all the Byzantine regalia it's kinda the same thing.
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2014, 01:00:49 AM »
In some of the encounters between the Desert Fathers and younger monks they counsel them on avoiding homosexual actions. I remember reading specifically about one spiritual father who sowed seeds of hatred between two of his novices because it was better than the physical attraction that was growing between them. It is likely that many saints overcame such passions. Homosexuality was identified more as a sinful action which many indulged in(it was pretty widespread, I believe one Classical Greek text said that only the Jews refrained fromm it during their time), rather than as a specific identity.

Really wish I could find a source for some of the Desert Fathers stories.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2014, 01:11:07 AM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

She missed being Orthodox by a few years but may have some appeal:

 St. Joan of Arc



Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline LBK

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2014, 01:15:31 AM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

She missed being Orthodox by a few years but may have some appeal:

 St. Joan of Arc




Joan of Arc simply dressed in armor and rode out to battle, leading the French troops. No homosexuality or transvestism should be drawn from this. Those she led, and those who supported her all knew she was a woman.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 01:16:20 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Velsigne

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2014, 01:38:45 AM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

She missed being Orthodox by a few years but may have some appeal:

 St. Joan of Arc


Joan of Arc simply dressed in armor and rode out to battle, leading the French troops. No homosexuality or transvestism should be drawn from this. Those she led, and those who supported her all knew she was a woman.

That didn't have a very happy ending did it?

St. Pelagia repented of a life of debauchery, and "in the disguise of a monk, with much of her radiant face concealed, she commenced her avowed asceticism and service to God by secluding herself in the desert and devoting herself to the study of religion, philosophy, and theology to a degree that would assure her acceptance in God's favour."

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2014, 01:51:36 AM »
I have always wondered how Joan of Arc became a saint and Henry V did not.  He butchered the crapauds for their slight against Sts. Crispin and Crispinian, nun raping, and other rotten deeds. 

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Offline Green_Umbrella

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2014, 02:02:35 AM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

She missed being Orthodox by a few years but may have some appeal:

 St. Joan of Arc





St. Joan of Arc had nothing to do with LGBT.

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2014, 02:18:42 AM »
Deo gratias Anglia redde pro victoria!

Translation?  ;)
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Offline Nicene

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2014, 02:47:28 AM »
If there were any saints with a powerful attraction to the same sex they probably didn't talk about it and secondly they tried to overcome their natural predisposition and hence making them saints.
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Offline Ersaia

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2014, 03:57:50 AM »
the answer is NO

you can find monks or priests but they try to stop their feelings

this is the only approach

orthodox people who try to be "normal" or not active homosexuals


this link http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33286.0.html is for a place,  island Lesvos or Lesbos 

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2014, 05:50:01 AM »
I have always wondered how Joan of Arc became a saint and Henry V did not.  He butchered the crapauds for their slight against Sts. Crispin and Crispinian, nun raping, and other rotten deeds. 

It took Joan nearly five centuries to become a saint. Henry only had just over one before sainthood became irrelevant in ye olde Albion.

That, and dysentery is a much less dignified way to go than burning at the stake.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2014, 07:42:10 AM »
There were never LGBT saints or even LGBT people before the 20th century. Probably there were never "blacks" as well.

By saying that I don't mean, of course, that there were no person with black skin or with some sort of non-straight inclination. What I mean is that these categories were never the core of an identity. Nobody would say "I'm black" or "I'm gay" and with that have a whole set of cultural behaviors and values and it would not be considered that "I am black" or "I like to have sex with people of my own sex" is in the same category of "I am British" or "I am Muslim" or "I am a man". Nation, etnhicity, class, sex (and not gender) and faith were the core of identities. Color just became an issue in the 19th century when first spiritualist notions of different qualities of soul existed where the tribes in Africa and South America were at the bottom and the civilized word in Europe was at the top. With Darwinism and Marxism denying spiritual reality these differences which were considered self-evident had to be material and racism as we know it was born. With the subsequent of subjectivism and the radicalization of self-determinism "I am whatever I want to be" left the mere arena of not being forced into class or family determined job roles to be applied to everything. I am what I feel. That started with the cult of romanticism (the artistic movement, not simply giving flowers to a woman). While it was to some point acceptable while "what I feel" was pretty much conditioned by christianities, there is no natural reason to be conditioned in such a way. If I am what I feel, I am the most loving person because I feel love for several women or for "humanity" in general, although I don't do anything really loving to them. I just feel it. Then, any form of non self-acceptance like LGBT perversions who do not accept their own bodies and sex as natural limits, was also justified. That can go to radical extremes like the Otherkin who don't even accept their own humanity and it's your bullying prejudicial reactionary dumb fault if you can't accept them for what they "really" are, that is, how they feel.

Now, notice that if in Christ there is no Greek or Jew, freeman or slave, man or woman (identities based on real concrete differences: ethnicity, social class and sex) it much less has false artificial identities like "black", "white" or "LGBT". LGBT along other artificial identities like the "ambitious achiever", "party animal", "fun alcohol drinking person", "world changer" though are even worse than the color-based identies because color is virtue/sin neutral. These later ones are identities formed *upon* sins of every kind and are in direct opposition to Orthodox Christian ascetic life and love of God. The "anti-Christianity" of our times only exists because these identies were created, many in conscious objection and hate toward an upbringing in some form of Christianity or through the conscious effort of anti-Christian intellectuals (Frankfurt School being a case in point).

To have the inclination toward a specific sin is not a sin in itself. To act on this inclination is the sin. To look at this inclination and to say "this is who I am" is blasphemy. Neither your friend, nor the "socially-accepted-succesful-psychopath-CEO" are their inclinations. Both are the image and broken likeness of God, macrocosmic beings inside a microsmic universe, fallen but recoverable children of the very source of existence, each greater than the universe itself. This is their true "I". Not their sexual inclinations, not their ambitions, not their jobs.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 07:56:58 AM by Fabio Leite »
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2014, 10:06:09 AM »


j/k
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 10:06:18 AM by Cyrillic »

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2014, 10:06:44 AM »
Deo gratias Anglia redde pro victoria!

Translation?  ;)

England, thank God for victory!

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« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 10:07:05 AM by vamrat »
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline recent convert

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2014, 10:31:58 AM »
The plain fact is sex outside of marriage between a man & woman is adultery. There is nothing else if one is a Christian. When one reads Leviticus 18 the moral code is particular & severe. One will find the severity of this code alleviated by the preaching of repentance & forgiveness in the sermon on the mount. One will also find the same moral code outlined in Romans 1 although the judgement is of God not men in some tribal council. This is much better but our accountability remains the same & St. Paul warns us not to be deceived by breathing room, a judgement awaits us. Every little deed or misdeed will not send us to heaven or hell but collectively will & without repentance & confession, the risk runs greater. Excuses like, "I'm only human" will not help us unless we see these as symptoms of our brokenness & bring them to Christ. After all, we are only human & broken at that & we might have to do this many times. I say this as a struggling sinner trying not to be a hypocrite.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2014, 10:48:43 AM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2014, 11:08:38 AM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2014, 12:06:38 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 

He did push a car out of the snow once.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2014, 12:10:21 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 

Previous homosexuality? Monasticism cures homosexuality?
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2014, 12:17:52 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 

Previous homosexuality? Monasticism cures homosexuality?

Monasticism is supposed to make sexuality of any kind irrelevant.
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2014, 12:19:29 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 

Previous homosexuality? Monasticism cures homosexuality?

Monasticism is supposed to make sexuality of any kind irrelevant.

Indeed. Though, it doesn't mean that sexuality is 'turned off' it's just in the process of being moderated and controlled.
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Offline Aedificare

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2014, 12:20:42 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 

Previous homosexuality? Monasticism cures homosexuality?

The traditional, or mediaeval view is that sexuality is something you do not something you are.
And actually, this view is more fluid than a hetero-homo dichotomy.

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2014, 12:21:31 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 

Previous homosexuality? Monasticism cures homosexuality?


I think what was probably meant was 'previous active homosexuality'  

this is different than 'inclination' which then, as Arachne says, can be rendered less relevant in a -activity- way.....
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Offline Ersaia

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2014, 12:29:31 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 

Previous homosexuality? Monasticism cures homosexuality?

monasticism=no sex
straight monk and gay monk without sex is the same

gay monks without sex can't be example for homosexuals except if they want to be monks or nuns or can live without sex

gay monks with active sex life are not concider actual monks

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2014, 01:49:54 PM »
Just to clarify for a few of you posters, I know that people who actively practiced homosexuality and attempted to change their sex by mutilation and chemicals throughout their lives cannot be saints.  This is against Orthodoxy.  I know.  I understand.  It's in my brain cells.  What I am looking for is any saints or respected Orthodox who experienced same-sex attraction or gender identity disorder/dysphoria.
.- -. -.. / --. --- -.. / ... .... .- .-.. .-.. / .-- .. .--. . / .- .-- .- -.-- / .- .-.. .-.. / - . .- .-. ... / ..-. .-. --- -- / - .... . .. .-. / . -.-- . ...

Offline Didyma

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2014, 11:14:33 PM »
There was a thread on "Lesbian Saints of the Orthodox Church" a coupl'a years ago:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33286.0.html

Well played, sir.
.- -. -.. / --. --- -.. / ... .... .- .-.. .-.. / .-- .. .--. . / .- .-- .- -.-- / .- .-.. .-.. / - . .- .-. ... / ..-. .-. --- -- / - .... . .. .-. / . -.-- . ...

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2014, 11:18:21 PM »
Just to clarify for a few of you posters, I know that people who actively practiced homosexuality and attempted to change their sex by mutilation and chemicals throughout their lives cannot be saints.  This is against Orthodoxy.  I know.  I understand.  It's in my brain cells.  What I am looking for is any saints or respected Orthodox who experienced same-sex attraction or gender identity disorder/dysphoria.


It depends on what you mean by chemicals. Some chemicals are medicine. Right now, I have a cold. Would you condemn me because I take cough syrup. I also have a kidney stone that is still there after two lithothryptys. Would you condemn me if I took medicine to control the pain?
If a person suffers from same-sex attraction, if they want to be an Orthodox Christian, they have no choice but to strive to resist the temptation to commit homosexual sin. If they were to discover a medicine that could cure this affliction, I see nothing wrong with using it.  I am highly skeptical about a lot of the so called science that is used to justify the argument that homosexuals cannot change.  If we are honest, we know that the power of political correctness prevents any truly unbiased scholarly study of this topic. A scholar whose work does not conform to politically correct orthodoxy, risks losing their reputation, tenure or even their job.  I believe that true academic freedom is a thing of the past that has been destroyed by political correctness especially when studying or discussing homosexuality or lesbianism. In my academic discipline, I have seen a radical change from the contents and conclusions of history text books from the way they were when I started teaching on the college level back in 1970 and the contents and conclusions of history texts used today in our institutions of higher education. When  I taught at a campus of Kent State the western civ. text took John Boswell's argument that the Orthodox Church blessed same sex relationships during the Middle Ages as fact, although every scholar of church history knows that he was wrong.

Fr. John W. Morris

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2014, 11:22:37 PM »
Just to clarify for a few of you posters, I know that people who actively practiced homosexuality and attempted to change their sex by mutilation and chemicals throughout their lives cannot be saints.  This is against Orthodoxy.  I know.  I understand.  It's in my brain cells.  What I am looking for is any saints or respected Orthodox who experienced same-sex attraction or gender identity disorder/dysphoria.


It depends on what you mean by chemicals. Some chemicals are medicine. Right now, I have a cold. Would you condemn me because I take cough syrup. I also have a kidney stone that is still there after two lithothryptys. Would you condemn me if I took medicine to control the pain?
If a person suffers from same-sex attraction, if they want to be an Orthodox Christian, they have no choice but to strive to resist the temptation to commit homosexual sin. If they were to discover a medicine that could cure this affliction, I see nothing wrong with using it.  I am highly skeptical about a lot of the so called science that is used to justify the argument that homosexuals cannot change.  If we are honest, we know that the power of political correctness prevents any truly unbiased scholarly study of this topic. A scholar whose work does not conform to politically correct orthodoxy, risks losing their reputation, tenure or even their job.  I believe that true academic freedom is a thing of the past that has been destroyed by political correctness especially when studying or discussing homosexuality or lesbianism. In my academic discipline, I have seen a radical change from the contents and conclusions of history text books from the way they were when I started teaching on the college level back in 1970 and the contents and conclusions of history texts used today in our institutions of higher education. When  I taught at a campus of Kent State the western civ. text took John Boswell's argument that the Orthodox Church blessed same sex relationships during the Middle Ages as fact, although every scholar of church history knows that he was wrong.

Fr. John W. Morris

Respectfully...what?  Why would you think I'm condemning drugs for the use of curing sickness?  I specifically said drugs used to attempt to "cure" the person's natural sex.
.- -. -.. / --. --- -.. / ... .... .- .-.. .-.. / .-- .. .--. . / .- .-- .- -.-- / .- .-.. .-.. / - . .- .-. ... / ..-. .-. --- -- / - .... . .. .-. / . -.-- . ...

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2014, 11:50:05 PM »
I guess I just don't get it because homosexuality is NOT approved and considered sinful in Eastern Orthodoxy.

I don't see how a woman pretending she has man junk and acting as a man - and a man removing his junk and acting as a woman - isn't seen as sinful and not in accordance to the church?   Could somebody please give me any sources where homosexuality is accepted in Orthodoxy?   

Now the Eunuch is different than transgendered (just to make a point before somebody points it out).  A Eunuch has "disabled" parts and generally doesn't act outside their gender.
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2014, 12:02:27 AM »
Just to clarify for a few of you posters, I know that people who actively practiced homosexuality and attempted to change their sex by mutilation and chemicals throughout their lives cannot be saints.  This is against Orthodoxy.  I know.  I understand.  It's in my brain cells.  What I am looking for is any saints or respected Orthodox who experienced same-sex attraction or gender identity disorder/dysphoria.


It depends on what you mean by chemicals. Some chemicals are medicine. Right now, I have a cold. Would you condemn me because I take cough syrup. I also have a kidney stone that is still there after two lithothryptys. Would you condemn me if I took medicine to control the pain?
If a person suffers from same-sex attraction, if they want to be an Orthodox Christian, they have no choice but to strive to resist the temptation to commit homosexual sin. If they were to discover a medicine that could cure this affliction, I see nothing wrong with using it.  I am highly skeptical about a lot of the so called science that is used to justify the argument that homosexuals cannot change.  If we are honest, we know that the power of political correctness prevents any truly unbiased scholarly study of this topic. A scholar whose work does not conform to politically correct orthodoxy, risks losing their reputation, tenure or even their job.  I believe that true academic freedom is a thing of the past that has been destroyed by political correctness especially when studying or discussing homosexuality or lesbianism. In my academic discipline, I have seen a radical change from the contents and conclusions of history text books from the way they were when I started teaching on the college level back in 1970 and the contents and conclusions of history texts used today in our institutions of higher education. When  I taught at a campus of Kent State the western civ. text took John Boswell's argument that the Orthodox Church blessed same sex relationships during the Middle Ages as fact, although every scholar of church history knows that he was wrong.

Fr. John W. Morris

Respectfully...what?  Why would you think I'm condemning drugs for the use of curing sickness?  I specifically said drugs used to attempt to "cure" the person's natural sex.

Genesis 1:27  "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." There are only two sexes, male and female. One's sex is determined by their chromosomes. If a person has two X chromosomes they are female. If a person has an X and a Y chromosome they are male.
You must remember that you are writing about fallen sinful humanity. According to Orthodox theology our fallen state is not natural. We are only natural when we live in communion with God through grace. Same sex attraction or so called gender identity disorder is a manifestation of fallen un-natural humanity and the curse of ancestral sin.

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline Opus118

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2014, 12:15:47 AM »
Just to clarify for a few of you posters, I know that people who actively practiced homosexuality and attempted to change their sex by mutilation and chemicals throughout their lives cannot be saints.  This is against Orthodoxy.  I know.  I understand.  It's in my brain cells.  What I am looking for is any saints or respected Orthodox who experienced same-sex attraction or gender identity disorder/dysphoria.


It depends on what you mean by chemicals. Some chemicals are medicine. Right now, I have a cold. Would you condemn me because I take cough syrup. I also have a kidney stone that is still there after two lithothryptys. Would you condemn me if I took medicine to control the pain?
If a person suffers from same-sex attraction, if they want to be an Orthodox Christian, they have no choice but to strive to resist the temptation to commit homosexual sin. If they were to discover a medicine that could cure this affliction, I see nothing wrong with using it.  I am highly skeptical about a lot of the so called science that is used to justify the argument that homosexuals cannot change.  If we are honest, we know that the power of political correctness prevents any truly unbiased scholarly study of this topic. A scholar whose work does not conform to politically correct orthodoxy, risks losing their reputation, tenure or even their job.  I believe that true academic freedom is a thing of the past that has been destroyed by political correctness especially when studying or discussing homosexuality or lesbianism. In my academic discipline, I have seen a radical change from the contents and conclusions of history text books from the way they were when I started teaching on the college level back in 1970 and the contents and conclusions of history texts used today in our institutions of higher education. When  I taught at a campus of Kent State the western civ. text took John Boswell's argument that the Orthodox Church blessed same sex relationships during the Middle Ages as fact, although every scholar of church history knows that he was wrong.

Fr. John W. Morris

Respectfully...what?  Why would you think I'm condemning drugs for the use of curing sickness?  I specifically said drugs used to attempt to "cure" the person's natural sex.

Didyma,

I think it is likely that you will not get an answer to your question anywhere. You can conceivably get an approximate answer to your question yourself based on statistics and publish it (it would probably be considered publishable in my opinion).

The task however is large for this single issue. Compile the names of all Orthodox saints. Compile the names of all Orthodox saints that are known (not inferred or implied) to have a continual sexual relationship or a sexual identity consistent with their genetic identity while they were a saint. Do some divisions to determine the frequency that these issues comes up.

Apply this frequencies of overtly heterosexual oriented saints with the current frequency of homosexuals or gender rejection/confusion individuals.

This will likely give you the maximum number of Orthodox saints that have the attributes that you are seeking.

However there is definitely an environmental factor that would need to be addressed, and which would likely lower the amount of Orthodox saints in you list. I am not sure how sociologists/anthropologists deal with this, but I am sure that they do so and that it is something you can research and apply yourself.

I hope you will promise that 1% of the book royalties that you receive for this advise goes to OC.net.
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2014, 01:43:32 AM »
Forgive me for repostinging if this has been posted already but this young woman is a former practicing lesbian and has talked about it all on her channel. She's Orthodox and considering becoming a nun. She posts a lot of informative issues about the matter. She even said it is a genetic predisposition which I suppose it may be, but so is alcoholism. But gotta be careful in comparing the two since one has to take small steps with homosexuals. This video is very informative and up front. No false piety of being "polite". She's not crude, but she just tells it how it is. Not pious covering it up. Don't know hot to explain it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PncPnp8xFOw

Send your friend a link to her channel or this video, OP.

The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
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Offline Green_Umbrella

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2014, 02:37:58 AM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

I think the answer is, No.

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2014, 10:02:23 AM »
I don't see how a woman pretending she has man junk and acting as a man - and a man removing his junk and acting as a woman - isn't seen as sinful and not in accordance to the church?   

"Man junk"?  Have some respect. 
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2014, 10:04:18 AM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

I think the answer is, No.

You would do well, in this section, to respect the rules and not presume to speak on our behalf. 
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline biro

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2014, 10:19:53 AM »
I guess I just don't get it because homosexuality is NOT approved and considered sinful in Eastern Orthodoxy.

I don't see how a woman pretending she has man junk and acting as a man - and a man removing his junk and acting as a woman - isn't seen as sinful and not in accordance to the church?   Could somebody please give me any sources where homosexuality is accepted in Orthodoxy?   

Now the Eunuch is different than transgendered (just to make a point before somebody points it out).  A Eunuch has "disabled" parts and generally doesn't act outside their gender.

You seem to have trouble understanding forgiveness, as seen in your many posts about St. Constantine. If a person repents, it doesn't matter what they did in the past. Period.
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2014, 10:25:09 AM »
Just to clarify for a few of you posters, I know that people who actively practiced homosexuality and attempted to change their sex by mutilation and chemicals throughout their lives cannot be saints.  This is against Orthodoxy.  I know.  I understand.  It's in my brain cells.  What I am looking for is any saints or respected Orthodox who experienced same-sex attraction or gender identity disorder/dysphoria.


It depends on what you mean by chemicals. Some chemicals are medicine. Right now, I have a cold. Would you condemn me because I take cough syrup. I also have a kidney stone that is still there after two lithothryptys. Would you condemn me if I took medicine to control the pain?
If a person suffers from same-sex attraction, if they want to be an Orthodox Christian, they have no choice but to strive to resist the temptation to commit homosexual sin. If they were to discover a medicine that could cure this affliction, I see nothing wrong with using it.  I am highly skeptical about a lot of the so called science that is used to justify the argument that homosexuals cannot change.  If we are honest, we know that the power of political correctness prevents any truly unbiased scholarly study of this topic. A scholar whose work does not conform to politically correct orthodoxy, risks losing their reputation, tenure or even their job.  I believe that true academic freedom is a thing of the past that has been destroyed by political correctness especially when studying or discussing homosexuality or lesbianism. In my academic discipline, I have seen a radical change from the contents and conclusions of history text books from the way they were when I started teaching on the college level back in 1970 and the contents and conclusions of history texts used today in our institutions of higher education. When  I taught at a campus of Kent State the western civ. text took John Boswell's argument that the Orthodox Church blessed same sex relationships during the Middle Ages as fact, although every scholar of church history knows that he was wrong.

Fr. John W. Morris

Respectfully...what?  Why would you think I'm condemning drugs for the use of curing sickness?  I specifically said drugs used to attempt to "cure" the person's natural sex.

Didyma,

I think it is likely that you will not get an answer to your question anywhere. You can conceivably get an approximate answer to your question yourself based on statistics and publish it (it would probably be considered publishable in my opinion).

The task however is large for this single issue. Compile the names of all Orthodox saints. Compile the names of all Orthodox saints that are known (not inferred or implied) to have a continual sexual relationship or a sexual identity consistent with their genetic identity while they were a saint. Do some divisions to determine the frequency that these issues comes up.

Apply this frequencies of overtly heterosexual oriented saints with the current frequency of homosexuals or gender rejection/confusion individuals.

This will likely give you the maximum number of Orthodox saints that have the attributes that you are seeking.

However there is definitely an environmental factor that would need to be addressed, and which would likely lower the amount of Orthodox saints in you list. I am not sure how sociologists/anthropologists deal with this, but I am sure that they do so and that it is something you can research and apply yourself.

I hope you will promise that 1% of the book royalties that you receive for this advise goes to OC.net.

There are heterosexualy active saints because there are married saints. However, you cannot be an unrepentant practicing homosexual and be an Orthodox Saint, because a person who lives an immoral life and does not repent cannot be a Saint. The only way that a homosexual or lesbian could become a Saint would be for them to repent and live a chaste life, which would mean that they would renounce homosexual or lesbian sex and accept the teaching of the Church that all sexual activity outside of marriage between one man and one woman is a sin.

Fr. John W. Morris
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 10:27:53 AM by frjohnmorris »

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2014, 11:05:59 AM »

.....If a person repents, it doesn't matter what they did in the past. Period.


This simple statement says it all.  

We all sin, however, IF we TRULY repent, God has promised to forgive us.  I trust He will hold to His word.  However, it is on US to truly and honestly repent and do our darnedest not to repeat the offense.

As for LGBT Saints.....I know of none.  That doesn't mean they didn't have the inclination, it just means they fought it and didn't give in....just as "straight" saints didn't engage in extramarital relations.

If you are trying to convince someone that Orthodoxy is THE religion for them by showing them a gay Saint...don't bother.  This is not the way to bring them to Orthodoxy.

Teach them that the Church does not condemn the person, but, prays that they stop committing the sin.  

We all sin, however, it is on us to realize our sin and repent of it, prior to our death.  

If we base our lives around our sinful natures, then we will never repent, for we want everyone to accept our sin, as not being a sin....and unfortunately many people, even Orthodox, are buying in to it.  

I personally, know many Orthodox faithful who do not believe homosexuality to be a sin, knowing full well what the Church teaches.  Therefore, where does this leave them?  I worry that if they allow themselves even this one disagreement with the Church, it nullifies all other beliefs and dogmas.  

It's sad.  Very sad, how easily people are manipulated by the media and other sources, to be convinced that a sin, is no longer a sin.  First it was abortion, and now homosexuality.  In time, people will still think they are Orthodox, but, will accept all manner of societal immorality as status quo.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 11:07:48 AM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Opus118

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #60 on: February 27, 2014, 11:12:34 AM »

Didyma,

I think it is likely that you will not get an answer to your question anywhere. You can conceivably get an approximate answer to your question yourself based on statistics and publish it (it would probably be considered publishable in my opinion).

The task however is large for this single issue. Compile the names of all Orthodox saints. Compile the names of all Orthodox saints that are known (not inferred or implied) to have a continual sexual relationship or a sexual identity consistent with their genetic identity while they were a saint. Do some divisions to determine the frequency that these issues comes up.

Apply this frequencies of overtly heterosexual oriented saints with the current frequency of homosexuals or gender rejection/confusion individuals.

This will likely give you the maximum number of Orthodox saints that have the attributes that you are seeking.

However there is definitely an environmental factor that would need to be addressed, and which would likely lower the amount of Orthodox saints in you list. I am not sure how sociologists/anthropologists deal with this, but I am sure that they do so and that it is something you can research and apply yourself.

I hope you will promise that 1% of the book royalties that you receive for this advise goes to OC.net.

There are heterosexualy active saints because there are married saints. However, you cannot be an unrepentant practicing homosexual and be an Orthodox Saint, because a person who lives an immoral life and does not repent cannot be a Saint. The only way that a homosexual or lesbian could become a Saint would be for them to repent and live a chaste life, which would mean that they would renounce homosexual or lesbian sex and accept the teaching of the Church that all sexual activity outside of marriage between one man and one woman is a sin.

Fr. John W. Morris

This goes without saying Father.

My notion was that the desired information is almost certainly not available. I was only trying to feebly attempt how one might estimate the number of chaste lesbian saints (or chaste saints with sexual identity issues).

I think we also need to be able to discern when (normal) sexual activity within a marriage is no longer appropriate.

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #61 on: February 27, 2014, 11:22:29 AM »

Didyma,

I think it is likely that you will not get an answer to your question anywhere. You can conceivably get an approximate answer to your question yourself based on statistics and publish it (it would probably be considered publishable in my opinion).

The task however is large for this single issue. Compile the names of all Orthodox saints. Compile the names of all Orthodox saints that are known (not inferred or implied) to have a continual sexual relationship or a sexual identity consistent with their genetic identity while they were a saint. Do some divisions to determine the frequency that these issues comes up.

Apply this frequencies of overtly heterosexual oriented saints with the current frequency of homosexuals or gender rejection/confusion individuals.

This will likely give you the maximum number of Orthodox saints that have the attributes that you are seeking.

However there is definitely an environmental factor that would need to be addressed, and which would likely lower the amount of Orthodox saints in you list. I am not sure how sociologists/anthropologists deal with this, but I am sure that they do so and that it is something you can research and apply yourself.

I hope you will promise that 1% of the book royalties that you receive for this advise goes to OC.net.

There are heterosexualy active saints because there are married saints. However, you cannot be an unrepentant practicing homosexual and be an Orthodox Saint, because a person who lives an immoral life and does not repent cannot be a Saint. The only way that a homosexual or lesbian could become a Saint would be for them to repent and live a chaste life, which would mean that they would renounce homosexual or lesbian sex and accept the teaching of the Church that all sexual activity outside of marriage between one man and one woman is a sin.

Fr. John W. Morris

This goes without saying Father.

My notion was that the desired information is almost certainly not available. I was only trying to feebly attempt how one might estimate the number of chaste lesbian saints (or chaste saints with sexual identity issues).

I think we also need to be able to discern when (normal) sexual activity within a marriage is no longer appropriate.



The only things I think you'd realistically find to satisfy the posters question are hagiographic references that St. so and so used to hang around the public baths in Ancient Rome or some such, but have it up and entered the monastery.  In most cases that's probably the closest you'll get, if that. 

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #62 on: February 27, 2014, 11:45:13 AM »

.....If a person repents, it doesn't matter what they did in the past. Period.


This simple statement says it all.  

We all sin, however, IF we TRULY repent, God has promised to forgive us.  I trust He will hold to His word.  However, it is on US to truly and honestly repent and do our darnedest not to repeat the offense.

As for LGBT Saints.....I know of none.  That doesn't mean they didn't have the inclination, it just means they fought it and didn't give in....just as "straight" saints didn't engage in extramarital relations.

If you are trying to convince someone that Orthodoxy is THE religion for them by showing them a gay Saint...don't bother.  This is not the way to bring them to Orthodoxy.

Teach them that the Church does not condemn the person, but, prays that they stop committing the sin.  

We all sin, however, it is on us to realize our sin and repent of it, prior to our death.  

If we base our lives around our sinful natures, then we will never repent, for we want everyone to accept our sin, as not being a sin....and unfortunately many people, even Orthodox, are buying in to it.  

I personally, know many Orthodox faithful who do not believe homosexuality to be a sin, knowing full well what the Church teaches.  Therefore, where does this leave them?  I worry that if they allow themselves even this one disagreement with the Church, it nullifies all other beliefs and dogmas.  

It's sad.  Very sad, how easily people are manipulated by the media and other sources, to be convinced that a sin, is no longer a sin.  First it was abortion, and now homosexuality.  In time, people will still think they are Orthodox, but, will accept all manner of societal immorality as status quo.



The acceptance of homosexuality by our society is one of the greatest feats of public relations in history. In a very short time less than 5% of the population has successfully taken over the media, our educational institutions and the Democratic Party. It is amazing how fast they were able to accomplish such a radical change in the attitude of our society towards sexuality.  I would date the beginning of the decline back to Row v Wade and the legalization of abortion and the growth of feminism, which took over the major Protestant sects and opened the way for acceptance of homosexuality and lesbianism.

Fr. John W. Morris

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #63 on: February 27, 2014, 11:51:26 AM »

.....If a person repents, it doesn't matter what they did in the past. Period.


This simple statement says it all.  

We all sin, however, IF we TRULY repent, God has promised to forgive us.  I trust He will hold to His word.  However, it is on US to truly and honestly repent and do our darnedest not to repeat the offense.

As for LGBT Saints.....I know of none.  That doesn't mean they didn't have the inclination, it just means they fought it and didn't give in....just as "straight" saints didn't engage in extramarital relations.

If you are trying to convince someone that Orthodoxy is THE religion for them by showing them a gay Saint...don't bother.  This is not the way to bring them to Orthodoxy.

Teach them that the Church does not condemn the person, but, prays that they stop committing the sin.  

We all sin, however, it is on us to realize our sin and repent of it, prior to our death.  

If we base our lives around our sinful natures, then we will never repent, for we want everyone to accept our sin, as not being a sin....and unfortunately many people, even Orthodox, are buying in to it.  

I personally, know many Orthodox faithful who do not believe homosexuality to be a sin, knowing full well what the Church teaches.  Therefore, where does this leave them?  I worry that if they allow themselves even this one disagreement with the Church, it nullifies all other beliefs and dogmas.  

It's sad.  Very sad, how easily people are manipulated by the media and other sources, to be convinced that a sin, is no longer a sin.  First it was abortion, and now homosexuality.  In time, people will still think they are Orthodox, but, will accept all manner of societal immorality as status quo.



The acceptance of homosexuality by our society is one of the greatest feats of public relations in history. In a very short time less than 5% of the population has successfully taken over the media, our educational institutions and the Democratic Party. It is amazing how fast they were able to accomplish such a radical change in the attitude of our society towards sexuality.  I would date the beginning of the decline back to Row v Wade and the legalization of abortion and the growth of feminism, which took over the major Protestant sects and opened the way for acceptance of homosexuality and lesbianism.

Fr. John W. Morris
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Offline Didyma

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #64 on: February 27, 2014, 12:02:33 PM »
Well, I guess there's probably not going to be any saints or respected people (besides Fr. Seraphim Rose) who were known to struggle with these problems because it's more of a confession thing.  
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #65 on: February 27, 2014, 12:10:20 PM »
If we base our lives around our sinful natures, then we will never repent, for we want everyone to accept our sin, as not being a sin....and unfortunately many people, even Orthodox, are buying in to it. 

Excellent! As I look back, I think the beginning of my journey to Orthodoxy was a conversation with a Lutheran pastor who said that sin wasn't the problem, and he didn't think we ought to talk about it.

 ???
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #66 on: February 27, 2014, 12:14:49 PM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

I do not want to say what to tell someone... bit if I had been asked by the same friend, I would tell them that there are almost certainly many saints who were gay, transgendered, etc., but that part of their sanctity was struggling in humility with the misunderstandings and hate of others, and it was almost always in secrecy. Until quite recently, even in the enlightened west, many such things would get you ostracized, beaten, put in jail, castrated, or killed. Their struggle, with the prejudices of others as much as their own sexuality and gender, was a martyria, and God saw it and continues to see it. But this is not to say that homosexuality is acceptable from a traditional Christian perspective, and that it was only the bad people who condemned such things. The good people, the pastorally sensitive people, even the saintly people, also did not accept it, and the Church has been consistent in that. By all means look for role models among the saints, in the Scripture, and in the present day... just remember that that might be a difficult and long road to travel. The important part is that God will be there at the end if you put your focus on reaching him.

Offline Velsigne

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #67 on: February 27, 2014, 12:50:00 PM »
Well, I guess there's probably not going to be any saints or respected people (besides Fr. Seraphim Rose) who were known to struggle with these problems because it's more of a confession thing.  

Yes.  Also, there are people born into Orthodoxy who struggle with various things, but to come in as an adult convert a person ideally would have to work out major issues before converting.  I can see how it could be a big struggle, assuming this is a young person trying to sort through identity issues further compounded by gender identity issues further compounded by societal sexual politics further compounded by attachment to passions they probably don't even perceive as passions.   A person's greatest desire should be for God foremost in their life, and some have a lot of sorting out to do, assuming this person is a young person, and some aren't quite ready to cast themselves and their desires aside, die to self, take up their cross and carry it.  It's a lot easier said than done, and it's a process, not a one-off event. 

That said, there are all types of sinners in the Orthodox church.  There are far too many variables in the scenario for anyone to be able to address this online.  That's why I suggested you speak with the priest who is catechizing you.

By your posts it's not really clear what you perceive as your role in the scenario you've set forth.  People discover this beautiful Orthodox faith and naturally want to share it with others. However, not everyone is at a place to come into the faith, and it is natural for them to not just automatically trust that what the Orthodox faith teaches is for them to become what God truly created them to become.   All this takes a lot of time and effort that is most definitely not the modus operandi in a society that both has a short attention span and expects instant feel good results, or a society that teaches that one can change one's appearance and hormonal balance and  be different on the interior.  That's the opposite of Orthodoxy.  Seems like this person has issues that should be addressed by professional psychiatric care first and foremost.  As far as I know that is a requirement for people who determine to undergo something as serious as a sex change operation and hormone therapy.
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #68 on: February 27, 2014, 12:56:00 PM »
Also, there are people born into Orthodoxy who struggle with various things, but to come in as an adult convert a person ideally would have to work out major issues before converting

I suppose there is a sense in which this might be true...what kind of "major issues" do you have in mind? 
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #69 on: February 27, 2014, 01:07:04 PM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

I do not want to say what to tell someone... bit if I had been asked by the same friend, I would tell them that there are almost certainly many saints who were gay, transgendered, etc., but that part of their sanctity was struggling in humility with the misunderstandings and hate of others, and it was almost always in secrecy. Until quite recently, even in the enlightened west, many such things would get you ostracized, beaten, put in jail, castrated, or killed. Their struggle, with the prejudices of others as much as their own sexuality and gender, was a martyria, and God saw it and continues to see it. But this is not to say that homosexuality is acceptable from a traditional Christian perspective, and that it was only the bad people who condemned such things. The good people, the pastorally sensitive people, even the saintly people, also did not accept it, and the Church has been consistent in that. By all means look for role models among the saints, in the Scripture, and in the present day... just remember that that might be a difficult and long road to travel. The important part is that God will be there at the end if you put your focus on reaching him.

That sounds very P.C.  I believe the witness of those saints is that they struggled with their own passions and defeated them to come closer to God; not struggling with people's "hate".
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2014, 01:14:59 PM »
That sounds very P.C.  I believe the witness of those saints is that they struggled with their own passions and defeated them to come closer to God; not struggling with people's "hate".

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Offline Velsigne

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2014, 01:16:28 PM »
Also, there are people born into Orthodoxy who struggle with various things, but to come in as an adult convert a person ideally would have to work out major issues before converting

I suppose there is a sense in which this might be true...what kind of "major issues" do you have in mind? 

It could be a number of things, but the one I had in mind is with regard to the OP and someone who is apparently struggling with identity issues or may be in an ongoing crisis of some type that we don't fully understand from the information in the OP.  If a person wants to convert, but is opposed to the fundamentals of the faith and has no intention of even trying to apply Orthodox teaching in their life, or is confused about what they are getting themselves into (which might be the case if someone 'sold' them Orthodoxy as something it isn't), or they are not able to sort out so many issues at once, it is better for them to take their time to sort things out, especially young people who can change pretty drastically.  
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2014, 01:49:15 PM »
This might be impolitic to say, but to the OP, I would respond that LGBT folks are so used to having everyone bend over backwards to make them feel better after saying they are <insert here>. Just because you are, does not obligate everyone in earshot/eyeshot/whatever to bow down to their demands. If I want to be called a woman, it does not mean everyone on OC.net is obligated to call me a woman.

Your existence is not all-encompassing on what sex your sexual preference is. If your upset because folks in a church wont label you as the sex you want to be labeled as, then you don't want worship of God, you want another group to sign off on your emotional wants.

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2014, 01:59:08 PM »
This might be impolitic to say, but to the OP, I would respond that LGBT folks are so used to having everyone bend over backwards to make them feel better after saying they are <insert here>. Just because you are, does not obligate everyone in earshot/eyeshot/whatever to bow down to their demands. If I want to be called a woman, it does not mean everyone on OC.net is obligated to call me a woman.

Your existence is not all-encompassing on what sex your sexual preference is. If your upset because folks in a church wont label you as the sex you want to be labeled as, then you don't want worship of God, you want another group to sign off on your emotional wants.

PP

Yes, I mean, I am so used to having everyone bend over backwards for me.  In fact, the other day, when a gay friend of mine was told on a college campus by a street preacher that he should go kill himself because he's a homo, campus police immediately removed the harasser from the grounds and forbid them from coming back....oh wait, I forgot.  I live in America.  And here, that's still considered legitimate "freedom of speech" to be shouting at a captive audience, and a legitimate religious belief to be proclaiming.  I guess I must have imagined that whole "bending over backwards" thing.
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2014, 02:02:23 PM »
This might be impolitic to say, but to the OP, I would respond that LGBT folks are so used to having everyone bend over backwards to make them feel better after saying they are <insert here>. Just because you are, does not obligate everyone in earshot/eyeshot/whatever to bow down to their demands. If I want to be called a woman, it does not mean everyone on OC.net is obligated to call me a woman.

Your existence is not all-encompassing on what sex your sexual preference is. If your upset because folks in a church wont label you as the sex you want to be labeled as, then you don't want worship of God, you want another group to sign off on your emotional wants.

PP

Yes, I mean, I am so used to having everyone bend over backwards for me.  In fact, the other day, when a gay friend of mine was told on a college campus by a street preacher that he should go kill himself because he's a homo, campus police immediately removed the harasser from the grounds and forbid them from coming back....oh wait, I forgot.  I live in America.  And here, that's still considered legitimate "freedom of speech" to be shouting at a captive audience, and a legitimate religious belief to be proclaiming.  I guess I must have imagined that whole "bending over backwards" thing.
Everyone can state a time where this wasn't the case. Big deal.

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #75 on: February 27, 2014, 02:29:23 PM »
I think there are ways to discuss the Truth of the matter, without being so brusque that it just incites the person to ignore EVERYTHING you say.

We have been instructed to demonstrate LOVE, not further the hate of others.  No one said we had to coddle people, or lie, or tell them things that are not truth.

However, it is our job to demonstrate Christ to them, to show compassion and love to them, in hopes of leading them to God.

You cannot be that light, show them love, etc...if you are brusque, and verging on hateful in the manner in which you discuss things.


Much like a Protestant like myself, who might have needed a bit more time and explanation on how Icons are NOT idols.....treating this situation with the same level of calm, rational explanatory help, is needed...

Talking about how such people are 'spoiled and all the other things...' smacks of 'screw them....I am Christian and thats all that matters, they can go to hell for all I care'


There IS a way to deal with this...and it's not by telling them that everyone has bent over backwards for them and you won't help counsel them.  Pretty sure that Christ would have sat down and talked gently but truthfully with them.
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #76 on: February 27, 2014, 03:05:58 PM »
Quote
We have been instructed to demonstrate LOVE, not further the hate of others
I dont hate them. Coddling their feelings is far more detrimental to them.

Quote
However, it is our job to demonstrate Christ to them, to show compassion and love to them, in hopes of leading them to God
You can do that. But that doesn't mean that you can't stand by your principles. Just because Jim wants to be called Sally doesnt mean that you have to. God made us the way He wants us. Treating a male as a female or vice versa tells people that God made a mistake.

Quote
You cannot be that light, show them love, etc...if you are brusque, and verging on hateful in the manner in which you discuss things
Maybe you can't but its totally possible.

Quote
Talking about how such people are 'spoiled and all the other things...' smacks of 'screw them....I am Christian and thats all that matters, they can go to hell for all I care'
Everybody is entitled to their opinions. If thats how you took it, Im sorry that you took it that way.

Quote
There IS a way to deal with this...and it's not by telling them that everyone has bent over backwards for them and you won't help counsel them
Maybe you need to re-read what I said. I never said that I would refuse to counsel them, nor did I say that I would tell them that folks bent over backwards. My point is that your sexual preference is not the end-all-be-all of a person's existence or who they are, contrary to what the Media and Hollywood say. There is so much more to a person than whom they choose to have sex with. Focusing on that one aspect of a person is really diminishing things that are great about people.

Quote
Pretty sure that Christ would have sat down and talked gently but truthfully with them.
Of course He would, but He wouldn't hamstring His laws for someone to feel better either.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

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Offline hecma925

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #77 on: February 27, 2014, 03:09:28 PM »
Quote
We have been instructed to demonstrate LOVE, not further the hate of others
I dont hate them. Coddling their feelings is far more detrimental to them.

Quote
However, it is our job to demonstrate Christ to them, to show compassion and love to them, in hopes of leading them to God
You can do that. But that doesn't mean that you can't stand by your principles. Just because Jim wants to be called Sally doesnt mean that you have to. God made us the way He wants us. Treating a male as a female or vice versa tells people that God made a mistake.

Quote
You cannot be that light, show them love, etc...if you are brusque, and verging on hateful in the manner in which you discuss things
Maybe you can't but its totally possible.

Quote
Talking about how such people are 'spoiled and all the other things...' smacks of 'screw them....I am Christian and thats all that matters, they can go to hell for all I care'
Everybody is entitled to their opinions. If thats how you took it, Im sorry that you took it that way.

Quote
There IS a way to deal with this...and it's not by telling them that everyone has bent over backwards for them and you won't help counsel them
Maybe you need to re-read what I said. I never said that I would refuse to counsel them, nor did I say that I would tell them that folks bent over backwards. My point is that your sexual preference is not the end-all-be-all of a person's existence or who they are, contrary to what the Media and Hollywood say. There is so much more to a person than whom they choose to have sex with. Focusing on that one aspect of a person is really diminishing things that are great about people.

Quote
Pretty sure that Christ would have sat down and talked gently but truthfully with them.
Of course He would, but He wouldn't hamstring His laws for someone to feel better either.

PP
+1.  We can speak the truth in love.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline orthonorm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #78 on: February 27, 2014, 03:13:07 PM »
Quote
Pretty sure that Christ would have sat down and talked gently but truthfully with them.
Of course He would, but He wouldn't hamstring His laws for someone to feel better either.

PP

I was going to stay out of this and let your adolescent manner of posting undo you and not throw your own life into the mix (which I still reserve the right to do, cause it's America and it's no big deal, right), but you sure about what you posted (I bolded it).

You might want to read the Gospel first before you answer and see how Christ treats those who would not "hamstring" his laws they want to enforce on others.

So if you are OK, go grab your stone and get back to me.

And learn how to use the quoting tags. You do teach "IT" or something right? I can provide you a cert in it for continuing education credits if you would like.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 03:14:12 PM by orthonorm »
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #79 on: February 27, 2014, 03:16:58 PM »
Quote
We have been instructed to demonstrate LOVE, not further the hate of others
I dont hate them. Coddling their feelings is far more detrimental to them.

Quote
However, it is our job to demonstrate Christ to them, to show compassion and love to them, in hopes of leading them to God
You can do that. But that doesn't mean that you can't stand by your principles. Just because Jim wants to be called Sally doesnt mean that you have to. God made us the way He wants us. Treating a male as a female or vice versa tells people that God made a mistake.

Quote
You cannot be that light, show them love, etc...if you are brusque, and verging on hateful in the manner in which you discuss things
Maybe you can't but its totally possible.

Quote
Talking about how such people are 'spoiled and all the other things...' smacks of 'screw them....I am Christian and thats all that matters, they can go to hell for all I care'
Everybody is entitled to their opinions. If thats how you took it, Im sorry that you took it that way.

Quote
There IS a way to deal with this...and it's not by telling them that everyone has bent over backwards for them and you won't help counsel them
Maybe you need to re-read what I said. I never said that I would refuse to counsel them, nor did I say that I would tell them that folks bent over backwards. My point is that your sexual preference is not the end-all-be-all of a person's existence or who they are, contrary to what the Media and Hollywood say. There is so much more to a person than whom they choose to have sex with. Focusing on that one aspect of a person is really diminishing things that are great about people.

Quote
Pretty sure that Christ would have sat down and talked gently but truthfully with them.
Of course He would, but He wouldn't hamstring His laws for someone to feel better either.

PP
+1.  We can speak the truth in love.

Some can speak the truth.
Some can speak lovingly.

PP (what a way to sign your own name) can do neither based on his posts here and pretty much anywhere on this board.

So let's be careful about the nebulous we. It makes everyone feel really good that they are doing God's will stones in hand and all.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #80 on: February 27, 2014, 03:18:37 PM »
If I want to be called a woman, it does not mean everyone on OC.net is obligated to call me a woman.

I agree. When you start posting like a Christian, forget acting like one, I'll gladly call you that as well.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Rambam

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #81 on: February 27, 2014, 03:21:45 PM »
It's hard to make out your meaning here ... sounds like you're saying the street preacher didn't get kicked off campus? The implication being that he should have been?

This is actually pretty unusual, given how strongly universities have, in actuality, bent over backwards to protect the feelings of anyone not a straight, white male. Even the ACLU -- not widely considered a conservative, anti-gay bastion -- has sounded the alarm against pervasive campus speech codes. And they aren't doing it because these speech restrictions are rare.

https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/hate-speech-campus

Just saying.

This might be impolitic to say, but to the OP, I would respond that LGBT folks are so used to having everyone bend over backwards to make them feel better after saying they are <insert here>. Just because you are, does not obligate everyone in earshot/eyeshot/whatever to bow down to their demands. If I want to be called a woman, it does not mean everyone on OC.net is obligated to call me a woman.

Your existence is not all-encompassing on what sex your sexual preference is. If your upset because folks in a church wont label you as the sex you want to be labeled as, then you don't want worship of God, you want another group to sign off on your emotional wants.

PP

Yes, I mean, I am so used to having everyone bend over backwards for me.  In fact, the other day, when a gay friend of mine was told on a college campus by a street preacher that he should go kill himself because he's a homo, campus police immediately removed the harasser from the grounds and forbid them from coming back....oh wait, I forgot.  I live in America.  And here, that's still considered legitimate "freedom of speech" to be shouting at a captive audience, and a legitimate religious belief to be proclaiming.  I guess I must have imagined that whole "bending over backwards" thing.

Offline hecma925

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #82 on: February 27, 2014, 03:25:42 PM »
Quote
We have been instructed to demonstrate LOVE, not further the hate of others
I dont hate them. Coddling their feelings is far more detrimental to them.

Quote
However, it is our job to demonstrate Christ to them, to show compassion and love to them, in hopes of leading them to God
You can do that. But that doesn't mean that you can't stand by your principles. Just because Jim wants to be called Sally doesnt mean that you have to. God made us the way He wants us. Treating a male as a female or vice versa tells people that God made a mistake.

Quote
You cannot be that light, show them love, etc...if you are brusque, and verging on hateful in the manner in which you discuss things
Maybe you can't but its totally possible.

Quote
Talking about how such people are 'spoiled and all the other things...' smacks of 'screw them....I am Christian and thats all that matters, they can go to hell for all I care'
Everybody is entitled to their opinions. If thats how you took it, Im sorry that you took it that way.

Quote
There IS a way to deal with this...and it's not by telling them that everyone has bent over backwards for them and you won't help counsel them
Maybe you need to re-read what I said. I never said that I would refuse to counsel them, nor did I say that I would tell them that folks bent over backwards. My point is that your sexual preference is not the end-all-be-all of a person's existence or who they are, contrary to what the Media and Hollywood say. There is so much more to a person than whom they choose to have sex with. Focusing on that one aspect of a person is really diminishing things that are great about people.

Quote
Pretty sure that Christ would have sat down and talked gently but truthfully with them.
Of course He would, but He wouldn't hamstring His laws for someone to feel better either.

PP
+1.  We can speak the truth in love.

Some can speak the truth.
Some can speak lovingly.

PP (what a way to sign your own name) can do neither based on his posts here and pretty much anywhere on this board.

So let's be careful about the nebulous we. It makes everyone feel really good that they are doing God's will stones in hand and all.

Yes, let's, which has the same implication on an internet forum.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline orthonorm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #83 on: February 27, 2014, 03:26:42 PM »
God made us the way He wants us. Treating a male as a female or vice versa tells people that God made a mistake.
PP

Maybe you skipped the whole genealogy parts of Scripture, they are there for a reason. God doesn't ontically will everything that is. Did God give you your vices? What about the ones your handed down to your son? People are who they in light of a complex genealogy of broken people living in a broken world.

You seem you have forgotten that. Perhaps if you look at the brokenness of your own life and family, you might have a little sympathy with those whose own brokenness rather than being placated is fodder for open hostility, legal punishment, etc.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #84 on: February 27, 2014, 03:28:06 PM »
Quote
We have been instructed to demonstrate LOVE, not further the hate of others
I dont hate them. Coddling their feelings is far more detrimental to them.

Quote
However, it is our job to demonstrate Christ to them, to show compassion and love to them, in hopes of leading them to God
You can do that. But that doesn't mean that you can't stand by your principles. Just because Jim wants to be called Sally doesnt mean that you have to. God made us the way He wants us. Treating a male as a female or vice versa tells people that God made a mistake.

Quote
You cannot be that light, show them love, etc...if you are brusque, and verging on hateful in the manner in which you discuss things
Maybe you can't but its totally possible.

Quote
Talking about how such people are 'spoiled and all the other things...' smacks of 'screw them....I am Christian and thats all that matters, they can go to hell for all I care'
Everybody is entitled to their opinions. If thats how you took it, Im sorry that you took it that way.

Quote
There IS a way to deal with this...and it's not by telling them that everyone has bent over backwards for them and you won't help counsel them
Maybe you need to re-read what I said. I never said that I would refuse to counsel them, nor did I say that I would tell them that folks bent over backwards. My point is that your sexual preference is not the end-all-be-all of a person's existence or who they are, contrary to what the Media and Hollywood say. There is so much more to a person than whom they choose to have sex with. Focusing on that one aspect of a person is really diminishing things that are great about people.

Quote
Pretty sure that Christ would have sat down and talked gently but truthfully with them.
Of course He would, but He wouldn't hamstring His laws for someone to feel better either.

PP
+1.  We can speak the truth in love.

Some can speak the truth.
Some can speak lovingly.

PP (what a way to sign your own name) can do neither based on his posts here and pretty much anywhere on this board.

So let's be careful about the nebulous we. It makes everyone feel really good that they are doing God's will stones in hand and all.

Yes, let's, which has the same implication on an internet forum.

No, you miss the structural difference. When you place yourself on the side of the admission of not knowing, when you don't, then you are within the scope of humility. When you place yourself in some nebulous stand in for God, then, well good luck with that.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #85 on: February 27, 2014, 03:31:56 PM »
It's hard to make out your meaning here ... sounds like you're saying the street preacher didn't get kicked off campus? The implication being that he should have been?

This is actually pretty unusual, given how strongly universities have, in actuality, bent over backwards to protect the feelings of anyone not a straight, white male. Even the ACLU -- not widely considered a conservative, anti-gay bastion -- has sounded the alarm against pervasive campus speech codes. And they aren't doing it because these speech restrictions are rare.

https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/hate-speech-campus

Just saying.

This might be impolitic to say, but to the OP, I would respond that LGBT folks are so used to having everyone bend over backwards to make them feel better after saying they are <insert here>. Just because you are, does not obligate everyone in earshot/eyeshot/whatever to bow down to their demands. If I want to be called a woman, it does not mean everyone on OC.net is obligated to call me a woman.

Your existence is not all-encompassing on what sex your sexual preference is. If your upset because folks in a church wont label you as the sex you want to be labeled as, then you don't want worship of God, you want another group to sign off on your emotional wants.

PP

Yes, I mean, I am so used to having everyone bend over backwards for me.  In fact, the other day, when a gay friend of mine was told on a college campus by a street preacher that he should go kill himself because he's a homo, campus police immediately removed the harasser from the grounds and forbid them from coming back....oh wait, I forgot.  I live in America.  And here, that's still considered legitimate "freedom of speech" to be shouting at a captive audience, and a legitimate religious belief to be proclaiming.  I guess I must have imagined that whole "bending over backwards" thing.

Having lived most of my adult life near a University, I can tell you, except in Europe, the idiots who come to University to take strong stances like PP openly against: gays, Muslims, public enemy, meat eaters, whoever, are always around. The notable exception was Antioch in Yellow Springs which nearly birthed the word politically correct, which so many here use improperly, and which was torpedoed in the national media for their very strange stances.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Rambam

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #86 on: February 27, 2014, 03:33:37 PM »
Yes. And campus speech codes are ontically everywhere, too. And they ain't there to protect the feelings of the straight, white guy. That's all I was sayin.

It's hard to make out your meaning here ... sounds like you're saying the street preacher didn't get kicked off campus? The implication being that he should have been?

This is actually pretty unusual, given how strongly universities have, in actuality, bent over backwards to protect the feelings of anyone not a straight, white male. Even the ACLU -- not widely considered a conservative, anti-gay bastion -- has sounded the alarm against pervasive campus speech codes. And they aren't doing it because these speech restrictions are rare.

https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/hate-speech-campus

Just saying.

This might be impolitic to say, but to the OP, I would respond that LGBT folks are so used to having everyone bend over backwards to make them feel better after saying they are <insert here>. Just because you are, does not obligate everyone in earshot/eyeshot/whatever to bow down to their demands. If I want to be called a woman, it does not mean everyone on OC.net is obligated to call me a woman.

Your existence is not all-encompassing on what sex your sexual preference is. If your upset because folks in a church wont label you as the sex you want to be labeled as, then you don't want worship of God, you want another group to sign off on your emotional wants.

PP

Yes, I mean, I am so used to having everyone bend over backwards for me.  In fact, the other day, when a gay friend of mine was told on a college campus by a street preacher that he should go kill himself because he's a homo, campus police immediately removed the harasser from the grounds and forbid them from coming back....oh wait, I forgot.  I live in America.  And here, that's still considered legitimate "freedom of speech" to be shouting at a captive audience, and a legitimate religious belief to be proclaiming.  I guess I must have imagined that whole "bending over backwards" thing.

Having lived most of my adult life near a University, I can tell you, except in Europe, the idiots who come to University to take strong stances like PP openly against: gays, Muslims, public enemy, meat eaters, whoever, are always around. The notable exception was Antioch in Yellow Springs which nearly birthed the word politically correct, which so many here use improperly, and which was torpedoed in the national media for their very strange stances.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 03:34:22 PM by Rambam »

Offline vamrat

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #87 on: February 27, 2014, 03:36:04 PM »
This might be impolitic to say, but to the OP, I would respond that LGBT folks are so used to having everyone bend over backwards to make them feel better after saying they are <insert here>. Just because you are, does not obligate everyone in earshot/eyeshot/whatever to bow down to their demands. If I want to be called a woman, it does not mean everyone on OC.net is obligated to call me a woman.

Your existence is not all-encompassing on what sex your sexual preference is. If your upset because folks in a church wont label you as the sex you want to be labeled as, then you don't want worship of God, you want another group to sign off on your emotional wants.

PP

At least we don't have to bend over forwards for them, yet.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #88 on: February 27, 2014, 03:39:31 PM »
Yes. And campus speech codes are ontically everywhere, too. And they ain't there to protect the feelings of the straight, white guy. That's all I was sayin.

It's hard to make out your meaning here ... sounds like you're saying the street preacher didn't get kicked off campus? The implication being that he should have been?

This is actually pretty unusual, given how strongly universities have, in actuality, bent over backwards to protect the feelings of anyone not a straight, white male. Even the ACLU -- not widely considered a conservative, anti-gay bastion -- has sounded the alarm against pervasive campus speech codes. And they aren't doing it because these speech restrictions are rare.

https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/hate-speech-campus

Just saying.

This might be impolitic to say, but to the OP, I would respond that LGBT folks are so used to having everyone bend over backwards to make them feel better after saying they are <insert here>. Just because you are, does not obligate everyone in earshot/eyeshot/whatever to bow down to their demands. If I want to be called a woman, it does not mean everyone on OC.net is obligated to call me a woman.

Your existence is not all-encompassing on what sex your sexual preference is. If your upset because folks in a church wont label you as the sex you want to be labeled as, then you don't want worship of God, you want another group to sign off on your emotional wants.

PP

Yes, I mean, I am so used to having everyone bend over backwards for me.  In fact, the other day, when a gay friend of mine was told on a college campus by a street preacher that he should go kill himself because he's a homo, campus police immediately removed the harasser from the grounds and forbid them from coming back....oh wait, I forgot.  I live in America.  And here, that's still considered legitimate "freedom of speech" to be shouting at a captive audience, and a legitimate religious belief to be proclaiming.  I guess I must have imagined that whole "bending over backwards" thing.

Having lived most of my adult life near a University, I can tell you, except in Europe, the idiots who come to University to take strong stances like PP openly against: gays, Muslims, public enemy, meat eaters, whoever, are always around. The notable exception was Antioch in Yellow Springs which nearly birthed the word politically correct, which so many here use improperly, and which was torpedoed in the national media for their very strange stances.

Not on the let's count  . . . . 30 some odd universities I have been close to, studied at, worked on, worked for, spend a lot of time at.

Just Antioch.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Rambam

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #89 on: February 27, 2014, 03:39:57 PM »
Lolz. Tell that to the skinny guy doing 10-30 for drug trafficking at your friendly local penitentiary.



This might be impolitic to say, but to the OP, I would respond that LGBT folks are so used to having everyone bend over backwards to make them feel better after saying they are <insert here>. Just because you are, does not obligate everyone in earshot/eyeshot/whatever to bow down to their demands. If I want to be called a woman, it does not mean everyone on OC.net is obligated to call me a woman.

Your existence is not all-encompassing on what sex your sexual preference is. If your upset because folks in a church wont label you as the sex you want to be labeled as, then you don't want worship of God, you want another group to sign off on your emotional wants.

PP

At least we don't have to bend over forwards for them, yet.

Offline Rambam

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2014, 03:43:09 PM »
Wow. 30 universities. Count me impressed. Especially if you're using the ontic sense of the word "30." 

The university I work at and the one I picked up my undergrad at both had speech codes. So do more than half the campuses in the United States.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303465004579322773368846510



Yes. And campus speech codes are ontically everywhere, too. And they ain't there to protect the feelings of the straight, white guy. That's all I was sayin.

It's hard to make out your meaning here ... sounds like you're saying the street preacher didn't get kicked off campus? The implication being that he should have been?

This is actually pretty unusual, given how strongly universities have, in actuality, bent over backwards to protect the feelings of anyone not a straight, white male. Even the ACLU -- not widely considered a conservative, anti-gay bastion -- has sounded the alarm against pervasive campus speech codes. And they aren't doing it because these speech restrictions are rare.

https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/hate-speech-campus

Just saying.

This might be impolitic to say, but to the OP, I would respond that LGBT folks are so used to having everyone bend over backwards to make them feel better after saying they are <insert here>. Just because you are, does not obligate everyone in earshot/eyeshot/whatever to bow down to their demands. If I want to be called a woman, it does not mean everyone on OC.net is obligated to call me a woman.

Your existence is not all-encompassing on what sex your sexual preference is. If your upset because folks in a church wont label you as the sex you want to be labeled as, then you don't want worship of God, you want another group to sign off on your emotional wants.

PP

Yes, I mean, I am so used to having everyone bend over backwards for me.  In fact, the other day, when a gay friend of mine was told on a college campus by a street preacher that he should go kill himself because he's a homo, campus police immediately removed the harasser from the grounds and forbid them from coming back....oh wait, I forgot.  I live in America.  And here, that's still considered legitimate "freedom of speech" to be shouting at a captive audience, and a legitimate religious belief to be proclaiming.  I guess I must have imagined that whole "bending over backwards" thing.

Having lived most of my adult life near a University, I can tell you, except in Europe, the idiots who come to University to take strong stances like PP openly against: gays, Muslims, public enemy, meat eaters, whoever, are always around. The notable exception was Antioch in Yellow Springs which nearly birthed the word politically correct, which so many here use improperly, and which was torpedoed in the national media for their very strange stances.

Not on the let's count  . . . . 30 some odd universities I have been close to, studied at, worked on, worked for, spend a lot of time at.

Just Antioch.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 03:45:28 PM by Rambam »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #91 on: February 27, 2014, 03:44:15 PM »
This might be impolitic to say, but to the OP, I would respond that LGBT folks are so used to having everyone bend over backwards to make them feel better after saying they are <insert here>. Just because you are, does not obligate everyone in earshot/eyeshot/whatever to bow down to their demands. If I want to be called a woman, it does not mean everyone on OC.net is obligated to call me a woman.

Your existence is not all-encompassing on what sex your sexual preference is. If your upset because folks in a church wont label you as the sex you want to be labeled as, then you don't want worship of God, you want another group to sign off on your emotional wants.

PP

At least we don't have to bend over forwards for them, yet.

I was hoping this joke was going to be made 20 posts ago. Till PP went off on his tow the line beef, I was trying to think how hard to toss Rottnek under the bus with a variant on bending over backwards. But not matter how I worded it, I kept coming up short, for a guy like Rottnek.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #92 on: February 27, 2014, 03:45:51 PM »
Wow. 30 universities. Count me impressed.

The university I work at and the one I picked up my undergrad at both had speech codes. So do more than half the campuses in the United States.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303465004579322773368846510



Yes. And campus speech codes are ontically everywhere, too. And they ain't there to protect the feelings of the straight, white guy. That's all I was sayin.

It's hard to make out your meaning here ... sounds like you're saying the street preacher didn't get kicked off campus? The implication being that he should have been?

This is actually pretty unusual, given how strongly universities have, in actuality, bent over backwards to protect the feelings of anyone not a straight, white male. Even the ACLU -- not widely considered a conservative, anti-gay bastion -- has sounded the alarm against pervasive campus speech codes. And they aren't doing it because these speech restrictions are rare.

https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/hate-speech-campus

Just saying.

This might be impolitic to say, but to the OP, I would respond that LGBT folks are so used to having everyone bend over backwards to make them feel better after saying they are <insert here>. Just because you are, does not obligate everyone in earshot/eyeshot/whatever to bow down to their demands. If I want to be called a woman, it does not mean everyone on OC.net is obligated to call me a woman.

Your existence is not all-encompassing on what sex your sexual preference is. If your upset because folks in a church wont label you as the sex you want to be labeled as, then you don't want worship of God, you want another group to sign off on your emotional wants.

PP

Yes, I mean, I am so used to having everyone bend over backwards for me.  In fact, the other day, when a gay friend of mine was told on a college campus by a street preacher that he should go kill himself because he's a homo, campus police immediately removed the harasser from the grounds and forbid them from coming back....oh wait, I forgot.  I live in America.  And here, that's still considered legitimate "freedom of speech" to be shouting at a captive audience, and a legitimate religious belief to be proclaiming.  I guess I must have imagined that whole "bending over backwards" thing.

Having lived most of my adult life near a University, I can tell you, except in Europe, the idiots who come to University to take strong stances like PP openly against: gays, Muslims, public enemy, meat eaters, whoever, are always around. The notable exception was Antioch in Yellow Springs which nearly birthed the word politically correct, which so many here use improperly, and which was torpedoed in the national media for their very strange stances.

Not on the let's count  . . . . 30 some odd universities I have been close to, studied at, worked on, worked for, spend a lot of time at.

Just Antioch.

Which mean nothing. It is how they are enforced that matters.

You googling means little. If you have lived in 5 cities and dealt in academia or with it, you would be hard pressed not to have stumbled across 30 yourself.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Opus118

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #93 on: February 28, 2014, 12:19:45 AM »
Yes. And campus speech codes are ontically everywhere, too. And they ain't there to protect the feelings of the straight, white guy. That's all I was sayin.


It seems to be saying that you are clueless as to what they are primarily for.

They are primarily for protecting women on campus from harassment. I am tested on the case laws and university rules about this every year and it does include LGBT people (and they are people, not some theoretical object).

If you object to this, I am against you, simply stated.

I am beginning to think that we should have an analysis of Candy in the book club. It was passed around when I was in high school but I never read it (I tend to be prudish). Nevertheless it is perfect for this forum because it seems that most members here are mostly interested in topics that have some connection to sexual organs or ruckpositiv organs in church.

I also note from the number of posts below this one indicates that the thread may have gone off topic.
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #94 on: February 28, 2014, 12:24:58 AM »
Opus:

I'd be curious what your interaction with speech codes are. I spent my undergraduate years publishing a conservative campus newspaper, and I came up against the speech code folks quite a bit. I came away from that experience as a First-Amendment purist -- the more speech, the better, in other words.

I honestly don't know how folks could argue against this position. It's one of the few things that cuts both ways -- that is, free speech is ideologically neutral. And on a campus like the one I'm on now (in Okla.), leftist groups would benefit the most from unfettered access to the public square, I'd think.



Yes. And campus speech codes are ontically everywhere, too. And they ain't there to protect the feelings of the straight, white guy. That's all I was sayin.


It seems to be saying that you are clueless as to what they are primarily for.

They are primarily for protecting women on campus from harassment. I am tested on the case laws and university rules about this every year and it does include LGBT people (and they are people, not some theoretical object).

If you object to this, I am against you, simply stated.

I am beginning to think that we should have an analysis of Candy in the book club. It was passed around when I was in high school but I never read it (I tend to be prudish). Nevertheless it is perfect for this forum because it seems that most members here are mostly interested in topics that have some connection to sexual organs or ruckpositiv organs in church.

I also note from the number of posts below this one indicates that the thread may have gone off topic.

Offline Opus118

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #95 on: February 28, 2014, 11:00:08 AM »
Opus:

I'd be curious what your interaction with speech codes are. I spent my undergraduate years publishing a conservative campus newspaper, and I came up against the speech code folks quite a bit. I came away from that experience as a First-Amendment purist -- the more speech, the better, in other words.

I honestly don't know how folks could argue against this position. It's one of the few things that cuts both ways -- that is, free speech is ideologically neutral. And on a campus like the one I'm on now (in Okla.), leftist groups would benefit the most from unfettered access to the public square, I'd think.


I can't imagine how a conservative campus newspaper would violate speech codes. From what I see at this location, the codes are in place to diminish legal costs to the university (probably first) and to provide a productive working and learning environment for the people here (probably second).

Taking your newspaper story into this context and depending on how the information it contained was distributed (newspaper stand, OK; shoving it in a person's face while yelling at them, not OK), you probably had a case back then.
"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline orthonorm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #96 on: February 28, 2014, 11:31:05 AM »
that is, free speech is ideologically neutral.

You do realize this in itself is ideology?
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #97 on: February 28, 2014, 11:32:59 AM »
I can't imagine how a conservative campus newspaper would violate speech codes. From what I see at this location, the codes are in place to diminish legal costs to the university

Exactly. Nearly every university I saw enforcing its speech codes was in attempt to bring the stupidities of fraternities and sororities under control, until they just bought them out.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Rambam

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #98 on: February 28, 2014, 12:08:48 PM »
That's exactly what it was. We had news stands. But we also handed them out to people on their way to class, while shouting silly things. Campus police initially threatened arrest. University president threatened expulsion. We were in clear violation of the universities time and place restrictions, so they had good points!

But in the end, mine was better -- I had the phone number of one of Bill Oreilly's producers. This persuaded the president to let us do what we wanted. I also had the constitution.

And orthonorm -- I meant politically neutral. Maybe you could have guessed that. For the left or right, the dog they have in the fight is the same dog.

Oh well, I'm sure I'm still wrong here. Your campus experiences are clearly superior to mine.

Xoxo


Opus:

I'd be curious what your interaction with speech codes are. I spent my undergraduate years publishing a conservative campus newspaper, and I came up against the speech code folks quite a bit. I came away from that experience as a First-Amendment purist -- the more speech, the better, in other words.

I honestly don't know how folks could argue against this position. It's one of the few things that cuts both ways -- that is, free speech is ideologically neutral. And on a campus like the one I'm on now (in Okla.), leftist groups would benefit the most from unfettered access to the public square, I'd think.


I can't imagine how a conservative campus newspaper would violate speech codes. From what I see at this location, the codes are in place to diminish legal costs to the university (probably first) and to provide a productive working and learning environment for the people here (probably second).

Taking your newspaper story into this context and depending on how the information it contained was distributed (newspaper stand, OK; shoving it in a person's face while yelling at them, not OK), you probably had a case back then.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 12:09:35 PM by Rambam »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #99 on: February 28, 2014, 01:26:18 PM »
That's exactly what it was. We had news stands. But we also handed them out to people on their way to class, while shouting silly things. Campus police initially threatened arrest. University president threatened expulsion. We were in clear violation of the universities time and place restrictions, so they had good points!

But in the end, mine was better -- I had the phone number of one of Bill Oreilly's producers. This persuaded the president to let us do what we wanted. I also had the constitution.

And orthonorm -- I meant politically neutral. Maybe you could have guessed that. For the left or right, the dog they have in the fight is the same dog.

Oh well, I'm sure I'm still wrong here. Your campus experiences are clearly superior to mine.

Xoxo


Opus:

I'd be curious what your interaction with speech codes are. I spent my undergraduate years publishing a conservative campus newspaper, and I came up against the speech code folks quite a bit. I came away from that experience as a First-Amendment purist -- the more speech, the better, in other words.

I honestly don't know how folks could argue against this position. It's one of the few things that cuts both ways -- that is, free speech is ideologically neutral. And on a campus like the one I'm on now (in Okla.), leftist groups would benefit the most from unfettered access to the public square, I'd think.


I can't imagine how a conservative campus newspaper would violate speech codes. From what I see at this location, the codes are in place to diminish legal costs to the university (probably first) and to provide a productive working and learning environment for the people here (probably second).

Taking your newspaper story into this context and depending on how the information it contained was distributed (newspaper stand, OK; shoving it in a person's face while yelling at them, not OK), you probably had a case back then.

More varied yes. Superior? Well, if you spent your time in college writing in a conservative newspaper and trying to get the attention of Bill O'Reilly, then mine were definitely vastly superior.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Rambam

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #100 on: February 28, 2014, 02:29:42 PM »
Ontically superior, at that.



That's exactly what it was. We had news stands. But we also handed them out to people on their way to class, while shouting silly things. Campus police initially threatened arrest. University president threatened expulsion. We were in clear violation of the universities time and place restrictions, so they had good points!

But in the end, mine was better -- I had the phone number of one of Bill Oreilly's producers. This persuaded the president to let us do what we wanted. I also had the constitution.

And orthonorm -- I meant politically neutral. Maybe you could have guessed that. For the left or right, the dog they have in the fight is the same dog.

Oh well, I'm sure I'm still wrong here. Your campus experiences are clearly superior to mine.

Xoxo


Opus:

I'd be curious what your interaction with speech codes are. I spent my undergraduate years publishing a conservative campus newspaper, and I came up against the speech code folks quite a bit. I came away from that experience as a First-Amendment purist -- the more speech, the better, in other words.

I honestly don't know how folks could argue against this position. It's one of the few things that cuts both ways -- that is, free speech is ideologically neutral. And on a campus like the one I'm on now (in Okla.), leftist groups would benefit the most from unfettered access to the public square, I'd think.


I can't imagine how a conservative campus newspaper would violate speech codes. From what I see at this location, the codes are in place to diminish legal costs to the university (probably first) and to provide a productive working and learning environment for the people here (probably second).

Taking your newspaper story into this context and depending on how the information it contained was distributed (newspaper stand, OK; shoving it in a person's face while yelling at them, not OK), you probably had a case back then.

More varied yes. Superior? Well, if you spent your time in college writing in a conservative newspaper and trying to get the attention of Bill O'Reilly, then mine were definitely vastly superior.

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #101 on: February 28, 2014, 02:33:46 PM »
I'm sure that there are Homosexual Saints in Orthodoxy, of course they had to fight their feelings.

In the end, any monk required to stop their sexual practices, whether they are Homosexuals or Heterosexuals.

I don't see what is wrong in saying that there are Saints who had homosexual feelings, in the end, being homosexual is not a sin but practice it is. Like being heterosexual is not a sin but practice it out of marriage is a sin indeed.



« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 02:35:15 PM by Raylight »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #102 on: February 28, 2014, 02:36:07 PM »
Ontically superior, at that.



That's exactly what it was. We had news stands. But we also handed them out to people on their way to class, while shouting silly things. Campus police initially threatened arrest. University president threatened expulsion. We were in clear violation of the universities time and place restrictions, so they had good points!

But in the end, mine was better -- I had the phone number of one of Bill Oreilly's producers. This persuaded the president to let us do what we wanted. I also had the constitution.

And orthonorm -- I meant politically neutral. Maybe you could have guessed that. For the left or right, the dog they have in the fight is the same dog.

Oh well, I'm sure I'm still wrong here. Your campus experiences are clearly superior to mine.

Xoxo


Opus:

I'd be curious what your interaction with speech codes are. I spent my undergraduate years publishing a conservative campus newspaper, and I came up against the speech code folks quite a bit. I came away from that experience as a First-Amendment purist -- the more speech, the better, in other words.

I honestly don't know how folks could argue against this position. It's one of the few things that cuts both ways -- that is, free speech is ideologically neutral. And on a campus like the one I'm on now (in Okla.), leftist groups would benefit the most from unfettered access to the public square, I'd think.


I can't imagine how a conservative campus newspaper would violate speech codes. From what I see at this location, the codes are in place to diminish legal costs to the university (probably first) and to provide a productive working and learning environment for the people here (probably second).

Taking your newspaper story into this context and depending on how the information it contained was distributed (newspaper stand, OK; shoving it in a person's face while yelling at them, not OK), you probably had a case back then.

More varied yes. Superior? Well, if you spent your time in college writing in a conservative newspaper and trying to get the attention of Bill O'Reilly, then mine were definitely vastly superior.

Can you manage to at least respond to quoted material in a sensible manner?

Ontologically as well.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Rambam

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #103 on: February 28, 2014, 02:38:14 PM »
I'm sorry, Orthonorm! I thought I was. We have concurred that your college experience is vastly superior to mine.

Forgive me!

xoxo

Ontically superior, at that.



That's exactly what it was. We had news stands. But we also handed them out to people on their way to class, while shouting silly things. Campus police initially threatened arrest. University president threatened expulsion. We were in clear violation of the universities time and place restrictions, so they had good points!

But in the end, mine was better -- I had the phone number of one of Bill Oreilly's producers. This persuaded the president to let us do what we wanted. I also had the constitution.

And orthonorm -- I meant politically neutral. Maybe you could have guessed that. For the left or right, the dog they have in the fight is the same dog.

Oh well, I'm sure I'm still wrong here. Your campus experiences are clearly superior to mine.

Xoxo


Opus:

I'd be curious what your interaction with speech codes are. I spent my undergraduate years publishing a conservative campus newspaper, and I came up against the speech code folks quite a bit. I came away from that experience as a First-Amendment purist -- the more speech, the better, in other words.

I honestly don't know how folks could argue against this position. It's one of the few things that cuts both ways -- that is, free speech is ideologically neutral. And on a campus like the one I'm on now (in Okla.), leftist groups would benefit the most from unfettered access to the public square, I'd think.


I can't imagine how a conservative campus newspaper would violate speech codes. From what I see at this location, the codes are in place to diminish legal costs to the university (probably first) and to provide a productive working and learning environment for the people here (probably second).

Taking your newspaper story into this context and depending on how the information it contained was distributed (newspaper stand, OK; shoving it in a person's face while yelling at them, not OK), you probably had a case back then.

More varied yes. Superior? Well, if you spent your time in college writing in a conservative newspaper and trying to get the attention of Bill O'Reilly, then mine were definitely vastly superior.

Can you manage to at least respond to quoted material in a sensible manner?

Ontologically as well.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #104 on: February 28, 2014, 02:45:14 PM »
Ontically superior, at that.



That's exactly what it was. We had news stands. But we also handed them out to people on their way to class, while shouting silly things. Campus police initially threatened arrest. University president threatened expulsion. We were in clear violation of the universities time and place restrictions, so they had good points!

But in the end, mine was better -- I had the phone number of one of Bill Oreilly's producers. This persuaded the president to let us do what we wanted. I also had the constitution.

And orthonorm -- I meant politically neutral. Maybe you could have guessed that. For the left or right, the dog they have in the fight is the same dog.

Oh well, I'm sure I'm still wrong here. Your campus experiences are clearly superior to mine.

Xoxo


Opus:

I'd be curious what your interaction with speech codes are. I spent my undergraduate years publishing a conservative campus newspaper, and I came up against the speech code folks quite a bit. I came away from that experience as a First-Amendment purist -- the more speech, the better, in other words.

I honestly don't know how folks could argue against this position. It's one of the few things that cuts both ways -- that is, free speech is ideologically neutral. And on a campus like the one I'm on now (in Okla.), leftist groups would benefit the most from unfettered access to the public square, I'd think.


I can't imagine how a conservative campus newspaper would violate speech codes. From what I see at this location, the codes are in place to diminish legal costs to the university (probably first) and to provide a productive working and learning environment for the people here (probably second).

Taking your newspaper story into this context and depending on how the information it contained was distributed (newspaper stand, OK; shoving it in a person's face while yelling at them, not OK), you probably had a case back then.

More varied yes. Superior? Well, if you spent your time in college writing in a conservative newspaper and trying to get the attention of Bill O'Reilly, then mine were definitely vastly superior.

Can you manage to at least respond to quoted material in a sensible manner?

Ontologically as well.

I'm sorry, Orthonorm! I thought I was. We have concurred that your college experience is vastly superior to mine.

Forgive me!

xoxo
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Rambam

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #105 on: February 28, 2014, 03:02:41 PM »
Ontically superior, at that.



That's exactly what it was. We had news stands. But we also handed them out to people on their way to class, while shouting silly things. Campus police initially threatened arrest. University president threatened expulsion. We were in clear violation of the universities time and place restrictions, so they had good points!

But in the end, mine was better -- I had the phone number of one of Bill Oreilly's producers. This persuaded the president to let us do what we wanted. I also had the constitution.

And orthonorm -- I meant politically neutral. Maybe you could have guessed that. For the left or right, the dog they have in the fight is the same dog.

Oh well, I'm sure I'm still wrong here. Your campus experiences are clearly superior to mine.

Xoxo


Opus:

I'd be curious what your interaction with speech codes are. I spent my undergraduate years publishing a conservative campus newspaper, and I came up against the speech code folks quite a bit. I came away from that experience as a First-Amendment purist -- the more speech, the better, in other words.

I honestly don't know how folks could argue against this position. It's one of the few things that cuts both ways -- that is, free speech is ideologically neutral. And on a campus like the one I'm on now (in Okla.), leftist groups would benefit the most from unfettered access to the public square, I'd think.


I can't imagine how a conservative campus newspaper would violate speech codes. From what I see at this location, the codes are in place to diminish legal costs to the university (probably first) and to provide a productive working and learning environment for the people here (probably second).

Taking your newspaper story into this context and depending on how the information it contained was distributed (newspaper stand, OK; shoving it in a person's face while yelling at them, not OK), you probably had a case back then.

More varied yes. Superior? Well, if you spent your time in college writing in a conservative newspaper and trying to get the attention of Bill O'Reilly, then mine were definitely vastly superior.

Can you manage to at least respond to quoted material in a sensible manner?

Ontologically as well.

I'm sorry, Orthonorm! I thought I was. We have concurred that your college experience is vastly superior to mine.

Forgive me!

xoxo


Whoah. I'm supposed .... to post ... down here? Hunh, not a day goes by when you don't learn sumthin'. Thanks Orthonorm!

Offline Incognito777

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #106 on: February 28, 2014, 07:16:59 PM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

It is impossible to be a practicing homosexual and a saint. Unless your friend repents, she will not be saved. This does not mean she will be perfect in repentance (we all fall), but she needs to engage in merciless and relentless warfare against the lower nature. Like all humans, she needs to struggle against the carnal appetites.

The Top Ten Myths About Homosexuality
http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF10F01.pdf

Homosexuality: Fact and Fiction
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0107a.html

The Communist Takeover Of
America - 45 Declared Goals (Goal 26: "Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy.")
http://www.rense.com/general32/americ.htm

Offline Opus118

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #107 on: February 28, 2014, 11:25:46 PM »
That's exactly what it was. We had news stands. But we also handed them out to people on their way to class, while shouting silly things. Campus police initially threatened arrest. University president threatened expulsion. We were in clear violation of the universities time and place restrictions, so they had good points!

But in the end, mine was better -- I had the phone number of one of Bill Oreilly's producers. This persuaded the president to let us do what we wanted. I also had the constitution.

And orthonorm -- I meant politically neutral. Maybe you could have guessed that. For the left or right, the dog they have in the fight is the same dog.

Oh well, I'm sure I'm still wrong here. Your campus experiences are clearly superior to mine.

Xoxo


Opus:

I'd be curious what your interaction with speech codes are. I spent my undergraduate years publishing a conservative campus newspaper, and I came up against the speech code folks quite a bit. I came away from that experience as a First-Amendment purist -- the more speech, the better, in other words.

I honestly don't know how folks could argue against this position. It's one of the few things that cuts both ways -- that is, free speech is ideologically neutral. And on a campus like the one I'm on now (in Okla.), leftist groups would benefit the most from unfettered access to the public square, I'd think.


I can't imagine how a conservative campus newspaper would violate speech codes. From what I see at this location, the codes are in place to diminish legal costs to the university (probably first) and to provide a productive working and learning environment for the people here (probably second).

Taking your newspaper story into this context and depending on how the information it contained was distributed (newspaper stand, OK; shoving it in a person's face while yelling at them, not OK), you probably had a case back then.

I remember almost getting run over while walking to take my Chemistry final. Needless to say, it did not go well and this "was" my major.

I hope the relevance of this tidbit makes sense to you.


"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline Opus118

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #108 on: February 28, 2014, 11:30:14 PM »
That's exactly what it was. We had news stands. But we also handed them out to people on their way to class, while shouting silly things. Campus police initially threatened arrest. University president threatened expulsion. We were in clear violation of the universities time and place restrictions, so they had good points!

But in the end, mine was better -- I had the phone number of one of Bill Oreilly's producers. This persuaded the president to let us do what we wanted. I also had the constitution.

And orthonorm -- I meant politically neutral. Maybe you could have guessed that. For the left or right, the dog they have in the fight is the same dog.

Oh well, I'm sure I'm still wrong here. Your campus experiences are clearly superior to mine.

Xoxo



I remember almost getting run over while walking to take my Chemistry final. Needless to say, it did not go well and this "was" my major.

I hope the relevance of this tidbit makes sense to you.


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Offline Incognito777

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #109 on: March 01, 2014, 03:34:58 AM »
Wat does LGBT stand for?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #110 on: March 01, 2014, 03:43:20 AM »
Wat does LGBT stand for?
Lesbian
Gay
Bisexual
Transgender
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 03:45:18 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #111 on: March 01, 2014, 09:22:45 PM »
I guess I just don't get it because homosexuality is NOT approved and considered sinful in Eastern Orthodoxy.

I don't see how a woman pretending she has man junk and acting as a man - and a man removing his junk and acting as a woman - isn't seen as sinful and not in accordance to the church?   Could somebody please give me any sources where homosexuality is accepted in Orthodoxy?   

Now the Eunuch is different than transgendered (just to make a point before somebody points it out).  A Eunuch has "disabled" parts and generally doesn't act outside their gender.

You seem to have trouble understanding forgiveness, as seen in your many posts about St. Constantine. If a person repents, it doesn't matter what they did in the past. Period.

The topic is LGBT saints.

I don't believe that an active Lesbian or Gay man is living a saintly lifestyle.  If they were FORMERLY, that is different.  And it is a far cry from Constantine's crimes.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #112 on: March 01, 2014, 09:32:17 PM »
Dear everyone,

The poster was NOT looking for an example of an active alternate sexuality participant who was made a saint while in that state.

She was looking for someone who HAD overcome such things and she could point to as a source of hope and comeraderie for her friend.

We often pray to saints who share our particular issue. That's all she was looking for, someone to point her friend to.

Repeatedly stating that current active gay or lesbians cannot be saints is a bit like saying 'sorry, I got nothing ,but let me make sure you know this is a sin. 

Duh.
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