Author Topic: LGBT Saints?  (Read 6767 times)

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Offline Didyma

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LGBT Saints?
« on: February 25, 2014, 07:19:36 PM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2014, 07:35:13 PM »
Fr. Seraphim Rose.

He isn't officially a Saint, though sometimes he is venerated as one.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 07:35:44 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2014, 07:35:23 PM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

Although he is not formally canonized, Fr. Seraphim Rose, admired by many as a very holy man and a great teacher of the faith, lived with a male partner before he became Orthodox.  He was then a monastic.  

But don't confuse saints who had homosexual inclinations with practicing homosexuals.   The church makes a distinction.  

Offline Elisha

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2014, 07:36:28 PM »
But don't confuse saints who had homosexual inclinations with practicing homosexuals.   The church makes a distinction.  

+1

Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2014, 08:06:59 PM »
But don't confuse saints who had homosexual inclinations with practicing homosexuals.   The church makes a distinction.  

+1

If the truth were known, there are probably many many saints in times of old, probably many of them monastics, with such inclinations but who never spoke of it except perhaps to a confessor, and so we have no record of that aspect of their lives. 

Offline Papist

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2014, 08:12:24 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?
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Offline Rambam

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2014, 08:57:34 PM »

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2014, 09:12:54 PM »
What about these guys?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergius_and_Bacchus



Assuming they truly had something together, which some dispute.
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2014, 09:13:21 PM »
Perhaps the "we have a saint for that!" approach is the wrong one, here.
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Offline LBK

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2014, 09:15:01 PM »
What about these guys?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergius_and_Bacchus



Certain people have attempted to appropriate these saints as posterboys for the gay lobby, including the notorious artist Robert Lentz, who painted this image to promote them as a couple of homosexual lovers to suit their own sociopolitical agendas.
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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2014, 09:15:36 PM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries? Can we posthomously ascribe people identities they didn't claim?

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2014, 09:36:22 PM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries?
Yes, e.g., the hijra in south Asia, and the two-spirit in Native American cultures.
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2014, 09:37:06 PM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries? Can we posthomously ascribe people identities they didn't claim?

I don't think so.  My understanding was that the poster was searching for examples of Orthodox saints who struggled with same sex attraction or gender identity issues in their lives.  There may be some historical record of such persons.  

Offline Didyma

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2014, 09:41:34 PM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries? Can we posthomously ascribe people identities they didn't claim?

I don't think so.  My understanding was that the poster was searching for examples of Orthodox saints who struggled with same sex attraction or gender identity issues in their lives.  There may be some historical record of such persons.  

Yes, that's it.
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Offline Didyma

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2014, 09:43:33 PM »
Perhaps the "we have a saint for that!" approach is the wrong one, here.

I never intended that to be a focus, but I thought it would help if she thought that because we don't honor these lifestyles we don't respect the people.  That's a common chain of thoughts nowadays.
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Offline Didyma

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2014, 09:44:54 PM »
But don't confuse saints who had homosexual inclinations with practicing homosexuals.   The church makes a distinction.  

+1

If the truth were known, there are probably many many saints in times of old, probably many of them monastics, with such inclinations but who never spoke of it except perhaps to a confessor, and so we have no record of that aspect of their lives. 

That's what I suspected, but I haven't read many hagiographies, so.....
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Offline Tallitot

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2014, 09:48:53 PM »
There was a thread on "Lesbian Saints of the Orthodox Church" a coupl'a years ago:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33286.0.html
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2014, 09:53:58 PM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries? Can we posthomously ascribe people identities they didn't claim?

I don't think so.  My understanding was that the poster was searching for examples of Orthodox saints who struggled with same sex attraction or gender identity issues in their lives.  There may be some historical record of such persons. 

Yes, that's it.


There really wasn't a concept of 'homosexuality' in the ancient world, they were just seen as deviants. Even in the early copies of the DSM, homosexuality was seen as a deviant psychological thing. We've come to acknowledge the concept of homosexuality now, in the modern age; not so in the past.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 09:54:18 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2014, 11:28:09 PM »
Perhaps the "we have a saint for that!" approach is the wrong one, here.

Yes.
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2014, 11:44:21 PM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries? Can we posthomously ascribe people identities they didn't claim?

I don't think so.  My understanding was that the poster was searching for examples of Orthodox saints who struggled with same sex attraction or gender identity issues in their lives.  There may be some historical record of such persons.  

Yes, that's it.


There really wasn't a concept of 'homosexuality' in the ancient world, they were just seen as deviants. Even in the early copies of the DSM, homosexuality was seen as a deviant psychological thing. We've come to acknowledge the concept of homosexuality now, in the modern age; not so in the past.

Not really.  It was standard fare in some places if you're talking ancient like BC ancient.  If ancient means Victorian age, well, boarding school boys continued that aspect of classical education but it had to be hidden as did a lot of other things.  

Didyma friend would be correct in noting that fornication is not acceptable practice in Christianity.   I think Didyma might want to talk about this topic with the priest who is catechizing him/her.  

To add, I don't really understand the want to be a man issue and what all that involves, so maybe the fornication thing is not applicable to her or Didyma's concerns. 

« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 11:50:00 PM by Velsigne »
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2014, 11:58:34 PM »
This thread is so gay.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2014, 12:33:31 AM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries? Can we posthomously ascribe people identities they didn't claim?

No. But certain idiots attempt to do so.
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2014, 12:49:00 AM »
Did LGBT classifications exist as terms by which people identified themselves in previous centuries? Can we posthomously ascribe people identities they didn't claim?

No. But certain idiots attempt to do so.
We do that all the time Hinterlander. Here it bugs sone people bc we're talking about teh gayz but otherwise I dunno, gonna go a bit Yeshuawhatever here, when you see an icon where XC is wearing all the Byzantine regalia it's kinda the same thing.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2014, 01:00:49 AM »
In some of the encounters between the Desert Fathers and younger monks they counsel them on avoiding homosexual actions. I remember reading specifically about one spiritual father who sowed seeds of hatred between two of his novices because it was better than the physical attraction that was growing between them. It is likely that many saints overcame such passions. Homosexuality was identified more as a sinful action which many indulged in(it was pretty widespread, I believe one Classical Greek text said that only the Jews refrained fromm it during their time), rather than as a specific identity.

Really wish I could find a source for some of the Desert Fathers stories.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2014, 01:11:07 AM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

She missed being Orthodox by a few years but may have some appeal:

 St. Joan of Arc



Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline LBK

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2014, 01:15:31 AM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

She missed being Orthodox by a few years but may have some appeal:

 St. Joan of Arc




Joan of Arc simply dressed in armor and rode out to battle, leading the French troops. No homosexuality or transvestism should be drawn from this. Those she led, and those who supported her all knew she was a woman.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 01:16:20 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Velsigne

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2014, 01:38:45 AM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

She missed being Orthodox by a few years but may have some appeal:

 St. Joan of Arc


Joan of Arc simply dressed in armor and rode out to battle, leading the French troops. No homosexuality or transvestism should be drawn from this. Those she led, and those who supported her all knew she was a woman.

That didn't have a very happy ending did it?

St. Pelagia repented of a life of debauchery, and "in the disguise of a monk, with much of her radiant face concealed, she commenced her avowed asceticism and service to God by secluding herself in the desert and devoting herself to the study of religion, philosophy, and theology to a degree that would assure her acceptance in God's favour."

St. Pelagia
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2014, 01:51:36 AM »
I have always wondered how Joan of Arc became a saint and Henry V did not.  He butchered the crapauds for their slight against Sts. Crispin and Crispinian, nun raping, and other rotten deeds. 

Deo gratias Anglia redde pro victoria!
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Offline Green_Umbrella

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2014, 02:02:35 AM »
I have a transgender friend whom I've invited to church.  She has voiced frustration with churches that don't go along with her desired identity (male), and I know it would be against our philosophy to go along with it as she desires.  However, I think it would help if I could give examples of respected Orthodox who were gay, bisexual, or transgender (or whatever else), and saints would be ideal.  Does anyone know of any?

She missed being Orthodox by a few years but may have some appeal:

 St. Joan of Arc





St. Joan of Arc had nothing to do with LGBT.

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2014, 02:18:42 AM »
Deo gratias Anglia redde pro victoria!

Translation?  ;)
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Offline Nicene

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2014, 02:47:28 AM »
If there were any saints with a powerful attraction to the same sex they probably didn't talk about it and secondly they tried to overcome their natural predisposition and hence making them saints.
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Offline Ersaia

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2014, 03:57:50 AM »
the answer is NO

you can find monks or priests but they try to stop their feelings

this is the only approach

orthodox people who try to be "normal" or not active homosexuals


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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2014, 05:50:01 AM »
I have always wondered how Joan of Arc became a saint and Henry V did not.  He butchered the crapauds for their slight against Sts. Crispin and Crispinian, nun raping, and other rotten deeds. 

It took Joan nearly five centuries to become a saint. Henry only had just over one before sainthood became irrelevant in ye olde Albion.

That, and dysentery is a much less dignified way to go than burning at the stake.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2014, 07:42:10 AM »
There were never LGBT saints or even LGBT people before the 20th century. Probably there were never "blacks" as well.

By saying that I don't mean, of course, that there were no person with black skin or with some sort of non-straight inclination. What I mean is that these categories were never the core of an identity. Nobody would say "I'm black" or "I'm gay" and with that have a whole set of cultural behaviors and values and it would not be considered that "I am black" or "I like to have sex with people of my own sex" is in the same category of "I am British" or "I am Muslim" or "I am a man". Nation, etnhicity, class, sex (and not gender) and faith were the core of identities. Color just became an issue in the 19th century when first spiritualist notions of different qualities of soul existed where the tribes in Africa and South America were at the bottom and the civilized word in Europe was at the top. With Darwinism and Marxism denying spiritual reality these differences which were considered self-evident had to be material and racism as we know it was born. With the subsequent of subjectivism and the radicalization of self-determinism "I am whatever I want to be" left the mere arena of not being forced into class or family determined job roles to be applied to everything. I am what I feel. That started with the cult of romanticism (the artistic movement, not simply giving flowers to a woman). While it was to some point acceptable while "what I feel" was pretty much conditioned by christianities, there is no natural reason to be conditioned in such a way. If I am what I feel, I am the most loving person because I feel love for several women or for "humanity" in general, although I don't do anything really loving to them. I just feel it. Then, any form of non self-acceptance like LGBT perversions who do not accept their own bodies and sex as natural limits, was also justified. That can go to radical extremes like the Otherkin who don't even accept their own humanity and it's your bullying prejudicial reactionary dumb fault if you can't accept them for what they "really" are, that is, how they feel.

Now, notice that if in Christ there is no Greek or Jew, freeman or slave, man or woman (identities based on real concrete differences: ethnicity, social class and sex) it much less has false artificial identities like "black", "white" or "LGBT". LGBT along other artificial identities like the "ambitious achiever", "party animal", "fun alcohol drinking person", "world changer" though are even worse than the color-based identies because color is virtue/sin neutral. These later ones are identities formed *upon* sins of every kind and are in direct opposition to Orthodox Christian ascetic life and love of God. The "anti-Christianity" of our times only exists because these identies were created, many in conscious objection and hate toward an upbringing in some form of Christianity or through the conscious effort of anti-Christian intellectuals (Frankfurt School being a case in point).

To have the inclination toward a specific sin is not a sin in itself. To act on this inclination is the sin. To look at this inclination and to say "this is who I am" is blasphemy. Neither your friend, nor the "socially-accepted-succesful-psychopath-CEO" are their inclinations. Both are the image and broken likeness of God, macrocosmic beings inside a microsmic universe, fallen but recoverable children of the very source of existence, each greater than the universe itself. This is their true "I". Not their sexual inclinations, not their ambitions, not their jobs.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 07:56:58 AM by Fabio Leite »
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2014, 10:06:09 AM »


j/k
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 10:06:18 AM by Cyrillic »

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2014, 10:06:44 AM »
Deo gratias Anglia redde pro victoria!

Translation?  ;)

England, thank God for victory!

From the Agincourt Carol.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 10:07:05 AM by vamrat »
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2014, 10:31:58 AM »
The plain fact is sex outside of marriage between a man & woman is adultery. There is nothing else if one is a Christian. When one reads Leviticus 18 the moral code is particular & severe. One will find the severity of this code alleviated by the preaching of repentance & forgiveness in the sermon on the mount. One will also find the same moral code outlined in Romans 1 although the judgement is of God not men in some tribal council. This is much better but our accountability remains the same & St. Paul warns us not to be deceived by breathing room, a judgement awaits us. Every little deed or misdeed will not send us to heaven or hell but collectively will & without repentance & confession, the risk runs greater. Excuses like, "I'm only human" will not help us unless we see these as symptoms of our brokenness & bring them to Christ. After all, we are only human & broken at that & we might have to do this many times. I say this as a struggling sinner trying not to be a hypocrite.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2014, 10:48:43 AM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline vamrat

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2014, 11:08:38 AM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 
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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2014, 12:06:38 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 

He did push a car out of the snow once.

Offline Alpo

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2014, 12:10:21 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 

Previous homosexuality? Monasticism cures homosexuality?
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2014, 12:17:52 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 

Previous homosexuality? Monasticism cures homosexuality?

Monasticism is supposed to make sexuality of any kind irrelevant.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2014, 12:19:29 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 

Previous homosexuality? Monasticism cures homosexuality?

Monasticism is supposed to make sexuality of any kind irrelevant.

Indeed. Though, it doesn't mean that sexuality is 'turned off' it's just in the process of being moderated and controlled.
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Offline Aedificare

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2014, 12:20:42 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 

Previous homosexuality? Monasticism cures homosexuality?

The traditional, or mediaeval view is that sexuality is something you do not something you are.
And actually, this view is more fluid than a hetero-homo dichotomy.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: LGBT Saints?
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2014, 12:21:31 PM »
What is standing in the way of Fr. Serpahim Rose's becoming recognized as a saint?

Differences over his conservative theology and piety vs a more modernist approach.

His sexuality before he converted is not an issue. He is extremely popular in Russia.

I've always liked Fr. Seraphim Rose.  I find his previous homosexuality somewhat inspiring, sort of like a modern St. Mary of Egypt. 

Previous homosexuality? Monasticism cures homosexuality?


I think what was probably meant was 'previous active homosexuality'  

this is different than 'inclination' which then, as Arachne says, can be rendered less relevant in a -activity- way.....
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