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Author Topic: Situation in Macedonia  (Read 1013 times) Average Rating: 0
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iskandar
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« on: January 21, 2011, 06:58:08 PM »

I have the opportunity to go to Macedonia for a year or so. In principle I support the desire of the Macedonian Orthodox Church to be autocephalous -- it's clear that neither the great bulk of the population nor the government will ever accept that it be part of the Serbian church, so it seems to me that Serbia is simply holding the church hostage to no end. However, I recognize that the MOC is of course uncanonical at the moment, and my preference is obviously to worship in a canonical church.

It's not entirely clear to me if the canonical Ohrid Archbishopric consists of a viable faith community -- I know they have been suppressed by the government (although my impression is that they've been freer to operate in the last few years as Macedonia looks toward joining the EU). As far as I can tell, they don't have very many active churches, and many cities have none. I certainly don't want to attend an Ohrid Abp. church if it will cause me or them to suffer problems from the government, nor do I want to cause unnecessary tensions with my Macedonian friends and colleagues.

So it seems like my best option is probably to attend the MOC, at least most of the time. Can anybody offer greater insight as to what the situation on the ground is in Macedonia? Do canonical churches exist, and am I likely to cause suspicion or ill will by attending them? If I do attend the MOC, am I permitted to take communion? I suspect not, although my priest (who admittedly is not terribly familiar with the situation there) said he wouldn't have a problem with it. Thanks for any advice you can offer!
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Orest
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2011, 07:50:34 PM »

I think your analysis of the situation in Macedonia is right on the mark.
Remember how long it took for the Bulgarian Orthodox Church to be recognised as an autocephalous church.
Just go to the Macedonian Orthodox Church and ask God to bless your stay in Macedonia.
Are you going there to work?
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stashko
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2011, 08:06:54 PM »

You have to take Communion  with the canonical orthodox serbian church or the Macedonian Orthodox church that is with the serbian Patriarch....Even the ecumenical Patriarch doesn't recognize the seperated Macedonian orthodox Church..... police

Theres lots of albainian Muslim Macedonijans that want to tear macedonija apart ,so it starting with the orthodox churches while where arguing amongst ourselfs  there futhering there agenda.... samo sloga pravoslavne spasava....... 




I think your analysis of the situation in Macedonia is right on the mark.
Remember how long it took for the Bulgarian Orthodox Church to be recognised as an autocephalous church.
Just go to the Macedonian Orthodox Church and ask God to bless your stay in Macedonia.
Are you going there to work?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 08:21:50 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
stashko
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2011, 08:24:26 PM »

For you!.....You have to take Communion  with the canonical orthodox serbian church or the Macedonian Orthodox church that is with the serbian Patriarch....Even the ecumenical Patriarch doesn't recognize the seperated Macedonian orthodox Church.....

Theres lots of albainian Muslim Macedonijans that want to tear macedonija apart ,so it starting with the orthodox churches while where arguing amongst ourselfs  there futhering there agenda.... samo sloga pravoslavne spasava.......






I have the opportunity to go to Macedonia for a year or so. In principle I support the desire of the Macedonian Orthodox Church to be autocephalous -- it's clear that neither the great bulk of the population nor the government will ever accept that it be part of the Serbian church, so it seems to me that Serbia is simply holding the church hostage to no end. However, I recognize that the MOC is of course uncanonical at the moment, and my preference is obviously to worship in a canonical church.

It's not entirely clear to me if the canonical Ohrid Archbishopric consists of a viable faith community -- I know they have been suppressed by the government (although my impression is that they've been freer to operate in the last few years as Macedonia looks toward joining the EU). As far as I can tell, they don't have very many active churches, and many cities have none. I certainly don't want to attend an Ohrid Abp. church if it will cause me or them to suffer problems from the government, nor do I want to cause unnecessary tensions with my Macedonian friends and colleagues.

So it seems like my best option is probably to attend the MOC, at least most of the time. Can anybody offer greater insight as to what the situation on the ground is in Macedonia? Do canonical churches exist, and am I likely to cause suspicion or ill will by attending them? If I do attend the MOC, am I permitted to take communion? I suspect not, although my priest (who admittedly is not terribly familiar with the situation there) said he wouldn't have a problem with it. Thanks for any advice you can offer!
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
iskandar
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2011, 01:47:14 AM »

I think your analysis of the situation in Macedonia is right on the mark.
Remember how long it took for the Bulgarian Orthodox Church to be recognised as an autocephalous church.
Just go to the Macedonian Orthodox Church and ask God to bless your stay in Macedonia.
Are you going there to work?

Thanks for your answers. I'll be on a fellowship researching economic development. I still can't tell what the Ohrid Archbishopric is exactly -- do they actually have a network of churches full of normal people, or is it just a few priests operating out of their homes? Has their status been officially legalized since Abp. Jovan was imprisoned?
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mike
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2011, 05:40:24 AM »

It's not entirely clear to me if the canonical Ohrid Archbishopric consists of a viable faith community

Here you can find a list of parishes. There are quite many of them and they seem to be active.

Quote
I certainly don't want to attend an Ohrid Abp. church if it will cause me or them to suffer problems from the government, nor do I want to cause unnecessary tensions with my Macedonian friends and colleagues.

There are people who suffered more than 'unnecessary tensions with friends' because of Christ.

Quote
So it seems like my best option is probably to attend the MOC, at least most of the time.

You mean 'to apostate'.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 05:40:51 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged
Orest
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2011, 02:10:29 PM »

Michał: I think your reaction is over the top.  Being a guest in another country in order to accomplish a taste (on his Fellowship) does not involve being an apostate.  He is not there to solve problems in the church.  The reminder of how long it took the Bulgarian Orthodox Church to be recognized as autocephalic is a good reminder.

 Iskander is only in the country on a Fellowship for a limited time, not to get involved in local Orthodox politics.  In fact it would be wrong for him to do so as an outsider and a guest and might result in his Fellowship being cancelled and his being sent home.

Iskander, I think you have thought a lot about this and come to a good solution.  If you have the chance, by all means visit all the local Orthodox groups once,  but as you are a guest I agree that in order not to offend your colleagues at work, go to the MOC.  You have to get along with your hosts so you don’t want to cause any problems.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 02:21:51 PM by Orest » Logged
mike
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2011, 04:33:07 PM »

So ifiskandar wanted to go to Saudi Arabia you would recommend him to visit a mosque to please his friends, wouldn't you?

If there are no Churches or one is to scared to visit one (pressure from friends is much more worse than persecutions by Nero) the best thing to do is to read typika at home instead of wandering to places where schismatics gather.

I know what happened in Bulgaria but this certainly is not a good example to be proud of.
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2011, 06:13:12 PM »

Most of Ukraine's Ukrainian churches are schismatic, I think. In many villages, there are only schismatic churches.

With a RC church you can have limited communion as ekonomia if there are no OC churches within a traveling distance. But I'm sure that many Orthodox would agree with me on even this.

So then it is hard on the one hand. You love the people in the village, you love the church's history and the building's history there. But do you think that if limited RC communion were possible, communion with schismatic vagantes like pre-recognition Bulgaria, or schismatic Ukrainian churches is allowed? I believe the answer is no.

But then what about going there just to pray? I think this should be allowed, even though the narrow restrictive answer would be no.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 06:15:23 PM by rakovsky » Logged
iskandar
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« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2011, 04:57:12 AM »

So ifiskandar wanted to go to Saudi Arabia you would recommend him to visit a mosque to please his friends, wouldn't you?

If there are no Churches or one is to scared to visit one (pressure from friends is much more worse than persecutions by Nero) the best thing to do is to read typika at home instead of wandering to places where schismatics gather.

I know what happened in Bulgaria but this certainly is not a good example to be proud of.

Thanks for your comments. I'm willing to suffer to preserve the integrity of the church; I'm less enthusiastic about suffering to uphold a corrupt and sclerotic bureaucracy. Anyway, I'm not Macedonian and it's not my fight -- they can work it out however they please. And yes, when I'm in Muslim areas I'm more than happy to go to mosques, although I don't pray there.
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stashko
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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2011, 05:30:28 AM »

Like in kosovo ,Bosnija, makadonija, they have mudjahadin ,and other middle eastern fanatics even from pakistan of all the places ,trying convert the european albainian macedonijans, bosnijans to there brand of fanaticism ,by taking over the mosques and in some places there succeeding......Watch your back,  todays friend can become tomorrows foe.....Even Sandjak Serbian can blow up....Also parts of [Tsrna Gora]  mountian negro..... Grin
 A while back i was lisening to internet bosnijan radio ,,the bosnijan police raided a few bosnijan closed muslim villages ,that cut them selfs off from the general population,because they weren't muslim enough...these villages are practicing the wahabi brand of islam, imported from sadi arabija......


So ifiskandar wanted to go to Saudi Arabia you would recommend him to visit a mosque to please his friends, wouldn't you?

If there are no Churches or one is to scared to visit one (pressure from friends is much more worse than persecutions by Nero) the best thing to do is to read typika at home instead of wandering to places where schismatics gather.

I know what happened in Bulgaria but this certainly is not a good example to be proud of.

Thanks for your comments. I'm willing to suffer to preserve the integrity of the church; I'm less enthusiastic about suffering to uphold a corrupt and sclerotic bureaucracy. Anyway, I'm not Macedonian and it's not my fight -- they can work it out however they please. And yes, when I'm in Muslim areas I'm more than happy to go to mosques, although I don't pray there.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 05:57:27 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2011, 12:13:45 PM »

Like in kosovo ,Bosnija, makadonija, they have mudjahadin ,and other middle eastern fanatics even from pakistan of all the places ,trying convert the european albainian macedonijans, bosnijans to there brand of fanaticism ,by taking over the mosques and in some places there succeeding......Watch your back,  todays friend can become tomorrows foe.....Even Sandjak Serbian can blow up....Also parts of [Tsrna Gora]  mountian negro..... Grin
 A while back i was lisening to internet bosnijan radio ,,the bosnijan police raided a few bosnijan closed muslim villages ,that cut them selfs off from the general population,because they weren't muslim enough...these villages are practicing the wahabi brand of islam, imported from sadi arabija......

It's not Bosnija but Bosnia. Crna Gora is Montenegro not mountain negro. It's Macedonian not makedonijans. "J" in English is pronounced like Ж ж Ž ž in  Serbian. When Americans read your posts, they think it is pronounced like Bosniža, or Serbiža, Not Serbiya or Bosniya.
Even in Serbian it is Bosna, not Bosnija.
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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2011, 01:32:40 PM »

Like in kosovo ,Bosnija, makadonija, they have mudjahadin ,and other middle eastern fanatics even from pakistan of all the places ,trying convert the european albainian macedonijans, bosnijans to there brand of fanaticism ,by taking over the mosques and in some places there succeeding......Watch your back,  todays friend can become tomorrows foe.....Even Sandjak Serbian can blow up....Also parts of [Tsrna Gora]  mountian negro..... Grin
 A while back i was lisening to internet bosnijan radio ,,the bosnijan police raided a few bosnijan closed muslim villages ,that cut them selfs off from the general population,because they weren't muslim enough...these villages are practicing the wahabi brand of islam, imported from sadi arabija......

It's not Bosnija but Bosnia. Crna Gora is Montenegro not mountain negro. It's Macedonian not makedonijans. "J" in English is pronounced like Ж ж Ž ž in  Serbian. When Americans read your posts, they think it is pronounced like Bosniža, or Serbiža, Not Serbiya or Bosniya.
Even in Serbian it is Bosna, not Bosnija.

Not to take this thread a bit further off-topic, but just a point.  I think that the equivalent of 'J' in Serbian is 'Dzhe', which in cyrillic is represented by 'Џ'.  What you wrote  'Ж ж Ž ž', I believe is pronounced like 'Zhe' and is more of an 'Zh' sound. 
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stashko
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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2011, 01:54:48 PM »

Phonetic spelling is fine....thank you ...ts -c -ц ....... Grin  bosnia is spelled this way in english ,,Bosnija  Bosna is fine spelled this way as well croatian and bosnijans stress the  ja sound ....Macedonia is fine so is Makadonska serbian or even Macidonija ......Makadonija it's all good ...
One sister lived and died in Osjek ,or osek croatija....Plus you understood how to read it....Stasko is really spelled this way but  i chose to spell it stashko..Phonetically.....Bosnijan even say Bosnjak

Like in kosovo ,Bosnija, makadonija, they have mudjahadin ,and other middle eastern fanatics even from pakistan of all the places ,trying convert the european albainian macedonijans, bosnijans to there brand of fanaticism ,by taking over the mosques and in some places there succeeding......Watch your back,  todays friend can become tomorrows foe.....Even Sandjak Serbian can blow up....Also parts of [Tsrna Gora]  mountian negro..... Grin
 A while back i was lisening to internet bosnijan radio ,,the bosnijan police raided a few bosnijan closed muslim villages ,that cut them selfs off from the general population,because they weren't muslim enough...these villages are practicing the wahabi brand of islam, imported from sadi arabija......

It's not Bosnija but Bosnia. Crna Gora is Montenegro not mountain negro. It's Macedonian not makedonijans. "J" in English is pronounced like Ж ж Ž ž in  Serbian. When Americans read your posts, they think it is pronounced like Bosniža, or Serbiža, Not Serbiya or Bosniya.
Even in Serbian it is Bosna, not Bosnija.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 02:27:45 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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