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Author Topic: why are you not a byzantine catholic  (Read 4458 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mor Ephrem
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« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2014, 10:55:42 AM »

Not necessarily. If someone regards them as being a mockery of everything they manifest, the statement "everything" is absolutely valid.

Or "someone" needs to get a grip.  And I say that as a steadfast opponent of RC/EC activity in my homeland, both historically and even currently. 
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« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2014, 12:02:58 AM »

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

Interesting, that is the same thing I hear some Latin Trads say about the Orthodox.  Your both full of it.   Has The Lord granted either of you the gift of reading hearts or searching souls?  I know Metropolitan Constantine and Archbishop Vsevolod of blessed memory and Metropolitan Anthony and Bishop Daniel would not approve of such a condescending statement.
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« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2014, 01:51:28 PM »

The churches of the so-called Eastern Rites came into existence as a result of political considerations. When the Dodecanese Islands came under Venetian rule, or Cyprus under Latin Franks, or when the Western Ukraine was conquered by Poland, for example, some provision had to be made for an Orthodox Christian population under a government in obedience to the Bishop of Rome. It was an accommodation, if you will, and probably preferable to mass forced conversions. The result is some 20-plus ER jurisdictions under Rome, with a complete code of canon law to themselves.

I don't believe any Orthodox Christian would say there's no difference, that the Eastern Rites are simply Orthodox under Rome. And I think it's more than just the standard list of theological objections. Even the words we have in common feel different in an Eastern Rite church.

The wound to Christ's church is deep and tragic--not only along lines of East and West. Within the Orthodox communities themselves we are not one. We give weight to the folly of our own reasonings instead of remembering what we share: a faith in the Risen Lord.



It was far from "a result of political considerations" or the fact that "some provisions had to be made for an Orthodox population."
The reality was the Latinization or eradication of the Orthodox believers. The "U" was created in Poland by two Jesuits and the plan was to Latinize the Orthodox of Poland and south-west Russia. With the help of the Polish King Synods at Brest(1595-96) was formed. Since then the forced conversion of Orthodox to the papists began, churches confiscated, Orthodox were murdered, tortured, or sent into exile.
As a result of the violent actions of Greek Catholics in the 80's and 90's Orthodox believers had been deprived of their churches and their rights are still trampled on.

It all began with Rome's self appointed papal authority. Prior to the events in July 1054, the Byzantine Churches in Southern Italy were forced to accept the Latin Rite. Pope Leo sent Cardinal Humber and legates to Constantinople to meet with Patriarch Cerularius. There were tone two meetings. During the first Cardinal Humbert and his legates acted very disrespectful towards the Patriarch and because of this the Patriarch refused the second meeting. Quite annoyed Cardinal Humbert and his legates entered Hagia Sophia, which was filled with worshippers, interrupted the Liturgy, entered the alter, made accusations against the Patriarch and placed the bull of excommunication on the alter table. Since then there has been a pattern.

1204-the 4th Crusade sacks Constantinople. Latins set up their own Patriarch, to compete with the Orthodox. This was to take place in the other Orthodox Patriarchates.
1211-Venetian Crusaders conquer Byzantine Crete.
1281-Pope Martin IV authorizes a crusade against the re-established Byzantine Empire in Constantinople.
1924-15- Austro-Hungarian Empire eradicates Orthodox believers. Many are sent to concentration camps. Talerhof and Terezin.
1938-Volhynia Western Ukraine, the Polish government oversaw the destruction of hundreds of Orthodox Churches and hundreds more were turned over to the Latin Rite. This was occurring all over the Carpathian Mountain regions in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Western Ukraine.
1943-44 Hundres of Orthodox priests eliminated and tortured by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, aided by "U" Metropolitan Josyf Slipyj. During this time was also the zenith of the papist persecution in Poland by Polish Catholics against the Orthodox faithful.
1940's- The Serbian Orthodox massacre.

History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.



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« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2014, 03:53:24 PM »

 
History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.


If what is happening in Ukraine is due to a crusade by the Ukrainian Eastern rite Catholics, how come a  Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) has  condemned the “criminal actions of the government that provoked the bloodshed on the streets and squares of the gold-domed Kyiv” ?
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55476/
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« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2014, 04:10:11 PM »

The churches of the so-called Eastern Rites came into existence as a result of political considerations. When the Dodecanese Islands came under Venetian rule, or Cyprus under Latin Franks, or when the Western Ukraine was conquered by Poland, for example, some provision had to be made for an Orthodox Christian population under a government in obedience to the Bishop of Rome. It was an accommodation, if you will, and probably preferable to mass forced conversions. The result is some 20-plus ER jurisdictions under Rome, with a complete code of canon law to themselves.

I don't believe any Orthodox Christian would say there's no difference, that the Eastern Rites are simply Orthodox under Rome. And I think it's more than just the standard list of theological objections. Even the words we have in common feel different in an Eastern Rite church.

The wound to Christ's church is deep and tragic--not only along lines of East and West. Within the Orthodox communities themselves we are not one. We give weight to the folly of our own reasonings instead of remembering what we share: a faith in the Risen Lord.


It was far from "a result of political considerations" or the fact that "some provisions had to be made for an Orthodox population."
The reality was the Latinization or eradication of the Orthodox believers. The "U" was created in Poland by two Jesuits and the plan was to Latinize the Orthodox of Poland and south-west Russia. With the help of the Polish King Synods at Brest(1595-96) was formed. Since then the forced conversion of Orthodox to the papists began, churches confiscated, Orthodox were murdered, tortured, or sent into exile.
As a result of the violent actions of Greek Catholics in the 80's and 90's Orthodox believers had been deprived of their churches and their rights are still trampled on.

It all began with Rome's self appointed papal authority. Prior to the events in July 1054, the Byzantine Churches in Southern Italy were forced to accept the Latin Rite. Pope Leo sent Cardinal Humber and legates to Constantinople to meet with Patriarch Cerularius. There were tone two meetings. During the first Cardinal Humbert and his legates acted very disrespectful towards the Patriarch and because of this the Patriarch refused the second meeting. Quite annoyed Cardinal Humbert and his legates entered Hagia Sophia, which was filled with worshippers, interrupted the Liturgy, entered the alter, made accusations against the Patriarch and placed the bull of excommunication on the alter table. Since then there has been a pattern.

1204-the 4th Crusade sacks Constantinople. Latins set up their own Patriarch, to compete with the Orthodox. This was to take place in the other Orthodox Patriarchates.
1211-Venetian Crusaders conquer Byzantine Crete.
1281-Pope Martin IV authorizes a crusade against the re-established Byzantine Empire in Constantinople.
1924-15- Austro-Hungarian Empire eradicates Orthodox believers. Many are sent to concentration camps. Talerhof and Terezin.
1938-Volhynia Western Ukraine, the Polish government oversaw the destruction of hundreds of Orthodox Churches and hundreds more were turned over to the Latin Rite. This was occurring all over the Carpathian Mountain regions in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Western Ukraine.
1943-44 Hundres of Orthodox priests eliminated and tortured by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, aided by "U" Metropolitan Josyf Slipyj. During this time was also the zenith of the papist persecution in Poland by Polish Catholics against the Orthodox faithful.
1940's- The Serbian Orthodox massacre.

History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.



Yes, that's why the people of Lviv decided to speak Russian for two days to show their support for their eastern brethren.  They're clearly speaking Russian as part of a sinister plot against Russia.  O the horror!



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« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2014, 08:36:06 AM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

And because of that, Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochians once said that the Eastern Catholics are schizophrenic.
Some things said about Byzantine Catholics can be said about Western Orthodox.
Anyway, take a look at the schizophrenia in Ukraine today. Some want to be aligned with the EU, while others with Russia.

Exactly what does that have to do with being a Byzantine Catholic, or not?
Don't bring politics in to this discussion.

Byzantine Catholicism had its origin in the 1596 decision of the  union of Brest according to which a number of Orthodox bishops in Ukraine and nearby regions (including parts of Poland and Belarus and Lithuania) decided to align themselves with the western Church. Someone else brought up schizophrenia. I was only commenting on it and how it applies even today in Ukraine, which is where Byzantine Catholicism had its origin, at least in part. Why avoid politics if it is part of the discussion?
Further, if Byzantine Catholics are schizophrenic, why can't you say the same about the western rite Orthodox?

There were Eastern Rite Christians before the Union of Brest. I don't know the whole history of the BC church, but from at least the time the Latin kingdom of Jerusalem was established at the end of the First Crusade (1098) Greek Christians have been subject to rulers owing spiritual allegiance to Rome. Also, many of the territories of the Eastern Aegean were ruled by or feudatories of Venice, e.g., the Duchy of Athens, the Duchy of Naxos, etc. And Cyprus was ruled by the Franco-Norman Lusignan family for hundreds of years, until well into the 15th century. I'm not aware of large-scale conversions to Rome in any of these cases. It'd be great to hear from someone expert in the history of the Eastern Rite.
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« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2014, 08:45:10 AM »

 
History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.


If what is happening in Ukraine is due to a crusade by the Ukrainian Eastern rite Catholics, how come a  Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) has  condemned the “criminal actions of the government that provoked the bloodshed on the streets and squares of the gold-domed Kyiv” ?
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55476/


I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence. My question to you is: Why hasn't the Vatican not only spoken out against the violence committed towards the Orthodox but also, why hasn't the Vatican apologized for past atrocities?  Let's be clear it wasn't the government that provoked the violence, it was those individuals that wanted nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with the West.
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« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2014, 09:57:54 AM »

I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence.

Such exist. 

Quote
My question to you is: Why hasn't the Vatican not only spoken out against the violence committed towards the Orthodox but also, why hasn't the Vatican apologized for past atrocities? 

If they did apologise, would the Orthodox accept it?   
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« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2014, 10:00:38 AM »

I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence.

Such exist. 

Ever seen how homosexuals are treated in Russia? It can be scary at times.
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« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2014, 10:03:46 AM »

As a result of the violent actions of Greek Catholics in the 80's and 90's Orthodox believers had been deprived of their churches and their rights are still trampled on.

It all began with Rome's self appointed papal authority. Prior to the events in July 1054, the Byzantine Churches in Southern Italy were forced to accept the Latin Rite. Pope Leo sent Cardinal Humber and legates to Constantinople to meet with Patriarch Cerularius. There were tone two meetings. During the first Cardinal Humbert and his legates acted very disrespectful towards the Patriarch and because of this the Patriarch refused the second meeting. Quite annoyed Cardinal Humbert and his legates entered Hagia Sophia, which was filled with worshippers, interrupted the Liturgy, entered the alter, made accusations against the Patriarch and placed the bull of excommunication on the alter table. Since then there has been a pattern.

1204-the 4th Crusade sacks Constantinople. Latins set up their own Patriarch, to compete with the Orthodox. This was to take place in the other Orthodox Patriarchates.
1211-Venetian Crusaders conquer Byzantine Crete.
1281-Pope Martin IV authorizes a crusade against the re-established Byzantine Empire in Constantinople.
1924-15- Austro-Hungarian Empire eradicates Orthodox believers. Many are sent to concentration camps. Talerhof and Terezin.
1938-Volhynia Western Ukraine, the Polish government oversaw the destruction of hundreds of Orthodox Churches and hundreds more were turned over to the Latin Rite. This was occurring all over the Carpathian Mountain regions in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Western Ukraine.
1943-44 Hundres of Orthodox priests eliminated and tortured by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, aided by "U" Metropolitan Josyf Slipyj. During this time was also the zenith of the papist persecution in Poland by Polish Catholics against the Orthodox faithful.
1940's- The Serbian Orthodox massacre.

History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.

Hey, I'm all about Orthodoxy being great and everything, but this kind of historical tunnel vision is dangerous and disturbing. If you can't see the wrongs on the Orthodox side in your time line then there is really no hope of ever reconciling or having a meaningful discussion with all of these other Christians.
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« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2014, 11:32:17 AM »

I only met a Melkite (well, actually an RC that was going to change rites) once that came to my parish and stayed for coffee hour.  He was all about being "orthodox in communion with Rome" and telling the few of us that were there, including our Deacon, that there was no difference and we should all have communion together.  I'm sure he's not wholly representative of all Melkites and other eastern Catholics, but I wasn't going to bother to test the waters.
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« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2014, 03:19:02 PM »

  Let's be clear it wasn't the government that provoked the violence, it was those individuals that wanted nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with the West.
Well, that was my question as to why this was not clear to the Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) which  condemned the “criminal actions of the government that provoked the bloodshed on the streets and squares of the gold-domed Kyiv” ?
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55476/


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« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2014, 09:00:49 AM »

Hey, I'm all about Orthodoxy being great and everything, but this kind of historical tunnel vision is dangerous and disturbing. If you can't see the wrongs on the Orthodox side in your time line then there is really no hope of ever reconciling or having a meaningful discussion with all of these other Christians.



It has nothing to do with "tunnel vision", I am making a point with respect to the topic being discussed. I was never implying that the Orthodox side has always been perfect, but throughout history it has been the Orthodox that have been the target.



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« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2014, 02:45:00 PM »

 
History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.


If what is happening in Ukraine is due to a crusade by the Ukrainian Eastern rite Catholics, how come a  Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) has  condemned the “criminal actions of the government that provoked the bloodshed on the streets and squares of the gold-domed Kyiv” ?
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55476/


I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence. My question to you is: Why hasn't the Vatican not only spoken out against the violence committed towards the Orthodox but also, why hasn't the Vatican apologized for past atrocities?  Let's be clear it wasn't the government that provoked the violence, it was those individuals that wanted nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with the West.
Let's reserve commentary on who's to blame for the conflict in Ukraine for the Politics board where such discussion belongs. It's too hot a topic right now for discussion here.

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« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2014, 03:09:58 PM »

I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence.

Such exist. 

Ever seen how homosexuals are treated in Russia? It can be scary at times.
ever been to San Francisco?  Homosexuals can be scary at times.
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« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2014, 10:49:33 AM »

Ever seen how homosexuals are treated in Russia? It can be scary at times.
ever been to San Francisco?  Homosexuals can be scary at times.

xOrthodox4Christ seems to have forgotten that two wrongs makes a right.
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« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2014, 11:06:16 AM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

My objection is that they are Orthodox wannabees.

They originate from Orthodoxy.  Were forced to leave the Faith...yet, still retain some vestiges.  They look like us, smell like us, even sound like us a lot of the time....and yet....

This ^^ is an extremely broad generalization. There are a great many Eastern Catholics who are, if you will, "just EC". I don't mean that as a criticism mind you. To put it another way, they're like the Western-Rite Orthodox, in reverse.

Then there are others (a minority) who are, if you will, "Orthodox in communion with Rome." I'm not entirely crazy about that choice of words, as it offends the Orthodox, but there's no question that some kind of term is needed to distinguish them from the "just ECs". (The Melkite patriarch once employed an alternate phrase "Orthodox with a plus" ... if I were him I would have said "Catholic with a plus" ... but for some strange reason, popes and patriarchs tend not to consult me before they say things.  Cheesy)

Finally there are those (an even smaller minority, I believe) who conflate Easternness with Orthodoxy. It seems to me that it is only this latter idea that is truly problematic.

It's a shame that they can't realize they are now free to return to their Mother Church without persecution.

God willing they will see the Light.

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

I sympathize with them, but, I cannot understand why they insist on hanging on to Rome, even now.

FWIW, I always say that I have no intention of leaving Catholicism for Orthodoxy ... but if somehow I were Orthodox, I certainly wouldn't leave Orthodoxy for Catholicism. (Of course, you may not like that answer, so maybe I should have just said "No, it's a shame that the WRO don't realize they can return to their Mother Church.  Grin)
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« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2014, 11:17:32 AM »

Ever seen how homosexuals are treated in Russia? It can be scary at times.
ever been to San Francisco?  Homosexuals can be scary at times.

xOrthodox4Christ seems to have forgotten that two wrongs makes a right.

Not two wrongs, but three lefts. 
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« Reply #63 on: March 08, 2014, 02:46:08 PM »

Ever seen how homosexuals are treated in Russia? It can be scary at times.
ever been to San Francisco?  Homosexuals can be scary at times.

xOrthodox4Christ seems to have forgotten that two wrongs makes a right.

Not two wrongs, but three lefts. 

Actually, it's four square wrongs.
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« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2014, 10:46:23 PM »

The churches of the so-called Eastern Rites came into existence as a result of political considerations. When the Dodecanese Islands came under Venetian rule, or Cyprus under Latin Franks, or when the Western Ukraine was conquered by Poland, for example, some provision had to be made for an Orthodox Christian population under a government in obedience to the Bishop of Rome. It was an accommodation, if you will, and probably preferable to mass forced conversions. The result is some 20-plus ER jurisdictions under Rome, with a complete code of canon law to themselves.

I don't believe any Orthodox Christian would say there's no difference, that the Eastern Rites are simply Orthodox under Rome. And I think it's more than just the standard list of theological objections. Even the words we have in common feel different in an Eastern Rite church.

The wound to Christ's church is deep and tragic--not only along lines of East and West. Within the Orthodox communities themselves we are not one. We give weight to the folly of our own reasonings instead of remembering what we share: a faith in the Risen Lord.



It was far from "a result of political considerations" or the fact that "some provisions had to be made for an Orthodox population."
The reality was the Latinization or eradication of the Orthodox believers. The "U" was created in Poland by two Jesuits and the plan was to Latinize the Orthodox of Poland and south-west Russia. With the help of the Polish King Synods at Brest(1595-96) was formed. Since then the forced conversion of Orthodox to the papists began, churches confiscated, Orthodox were murdered, tortured, or sent into exile.
As a result of the violent actions of Greek Catholics in the 80's and 90's Orthodox believers had been deprived of their churches and their rights are still trampled on.

It all began with Rome's self appointed papal authority. Prior to the events in July 1054, the Byzantine Churches in Southern Italy were forced to accept the Latin Rite. Pope Leo sent Cardinal Humber and legates to Constantinople to meet with Patriarch Cerularius. There were tone two meetings. During the first Cardinal Humbert and his legates acted very disrespectful towards the Patriarch and because of this the Patriarch refused the second meeting. Quite annoyed Cardinal Humbert and his legates entered Hagia Sophia, which was filled with worshippers, interrupted the Liturgy, entered the alter, made accusations against the Patriarch and placed the bull of excommunication on the alter table. Since then there has been a pattern.

1204-the 4th Crusade sacks Constantinople. Latins set up their own Patriarch, to compete with the Orthodox. This was to take place in the other Orthodox Patriarchates.
1211-Venetian Crusaders conquer Byzantine Crete.
1281-Pope Martin IV authorizes a crusade against the re-established Byzantine Empire in Constantinople.
1924-15- Austro-Hungarian Empire eradicates Orthodox believers. Many are sent to concentration camps. Talerhof and Terezin.
1938-Volhynia Western Ukraine, the Polish government oversaw the destruction of hundreds of Orthodox Churches and hundreds more were turned over to the Latin Rite. This was occurring all over the Carpathian Mountain regions in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Western Ukraine.
1943-44 Hundres of Orthodox priests eliminated and tortured by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, aided by "U" Metropolitan Josyf Slipyj. During this time was also the zenith of the papist persecution in Poland by Polish Catholics against the Orthodox faithful.
1940's- The Serbian Orthodox massacre.

History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.



There was no Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1924. The Austro-Hungarian empire ended with the First World War in 1918.

Fr. John W. Morris



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« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2014, 10:48:11 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

My objection is that they are Orthodox wannabees.

They originate from Orthodoxy.  Were forced to leave the Faith...yet, still retain some vestiges.  They look like us, smell like us, even sound like us a lot of the time....and yet....

This ^^ is an extremely broad generalization. There are a great many Eastern Catholics who are, if you will, "just EC". I don't mean that as a criticism mind you. To put it another way, they're like the Western-Rite Orthodox, in reverse.

Then there are others (a minority) who are, if you will, "Orthodox in communion with Rome." I'm not entirely crazy about that choice of words, as it offends the Orthodox, but there's no question that some kind of term is needed to distinguish them from the "just ECs". (The Melkite patriarch once employed an alternate phrase "Orthodox with a plus" ... if I were him I would have said "Catholic with a plus" ... but for some strange reason, popes and patriarchs tend not to consult me before they say things.  Cheesy)

Finally there are those (an even smaller minority, I believe) who conflate Easternness with Orthodoxy. It seems to me that it is only this latter idea that is truly problematic.

It's a shame that they can't realize they are now free to return to their Mother Church without persecution.

God willing they will see the Light.

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

I sympathize with them, but, I cannot understand why they insist on hanging on to Rome, even now.

FWIW, I always say that I have no intention of leaving Catholicism for Orthodoxy ... but if somehow I were Orthodox, I certainly wouldn't leave Orthodoxy for Catholicism. (Of course, you may not like that answer, so maybe I should have just said "No, it's a shame that the WRO don't realize they can return to their Mother Church.  Grin)

They have. The Eastern Orthodox Church is the Mother Church of all Christians.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2014, 11:46:10 PM »

 

The churches of the so-called Eastern Rites came into existence as a result of political considerations. When the Dodecanese Islands came under Venetian rule, or Cyprus under Latin Franks, or when the Western Ukraine was conquered by Poland, for example, some provision had to be made for an Orthodox Christian population under a government in obedience to the Bishop of Rome. It was an accommodation, if you will, and probably preferable to mass forced conversions. The result is some 20-plus ER jurisdictions under Rome, with a complete code of canon law to themselves.

I don't believe any Orthodox Christian would say there's no difference, that the Eastern Rites are simply Orthodox under Rome. And I think it's more than just the standard list of theological objections. Even the words we have in common feel different in an Eastern Rite church.

The wound to Christ's church is deep and tragic--not only along lines of East and West. Within the Orthodox communities themselves we are not one. We give weight to the folly of our own reasonings instead of remembering what we share: a faith in the Risen Lord.



It was far from "a result of political considerations" or the fact that "some provisions had to be made for an Orthodox population."
The reality was the Latinization or eradication of the Orthodox believers. The "U" was created in Poland by two Jesuits and the plan was to Latinize the Orthodox of Poland and south-west Russia. With the help of the Polish King Synods at Brest(1595-96) was formed. Since then the forced conversion of Orthodox to the papists began, churches confiscated, Orthodox were murdered, tortured, or sent into exile.
As a result of the violent actions of Greek Catholics in the 80's and 90's Orthodox believers had been deprived of their churches and their rights are still trampled on.

It all began with Rome's self appointed papal authority. Prior to the events in July 1054, the Byzantine Churches in Southern Italy were forced to accept the Latin Rite. Pope Leo sent Cardinal Humber and legates to Constantinople to meet with Patriarch Cerularius. There were tone two meetings. During the first Cardinal Humbert and his legates acted very disrespectful towards the Patriarch and because of this the Patriarch refused the second meeting. Quite annoyed Cardinal Humbert and his legates entered Hagia Sophia, which was filled with worshippers, interrupted the Liturgy, entered the alter, made accusations against the Patriarch and placed the bull of excommunication on the alter table. Since then there has been a pattern.

1204-the 4th Crusade sacks Constantinople. Latins set up their own Patriarch, to compete with the Orthodox. This was to take place in the other Orthodox Patriarchates.
1211-Venetian Crusaders conquer Byzantine Crete.
1281-Pope Martin IV authorizes a crusade against the re-established Byzantine Empire in Constantinople.
1924-15- Austro-Hungarian Empire eradicates Orthodox believers. Many are sent to concentration camps. Talerhof and Terezin.
1938-Volhynia Western Ukraine, the Polish government oversaw the destruction of hundreds of Orthodox Churches and hundreds more were turned over to the Latin Rite. This was occurring all over the Carpathian Mountain regions in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Western Ukraine.
1943-44 Hundres of Orthodox priests eliminated and tortured by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, aided by "U" Metropolitan Josyf Slipyj. During this time was also the zenith of the papist persecution in Poland by Polish Catholics against the Orthodox faithful.
1940's- The Serbian Orthodox massacre.

History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.


Quote
There was no Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1924. The Austro-Hungarian empire ended with the First World War in 1918.

Fr. John W. Morris
I think he meant 1914-1915.
There are a certain number of Ukrainian extreme nationalists in the UGCC. And I don't see the point in the hierarchy of the UGCC and the UOC-KP coming to Washington, DC asking for American support against Russia. One of their heros is Stepan Bandera who is controversial to say the least. Obviously this is a great embarrassment to those of us who would like to see better relations between Catholics and Russian Orthodox. The extremists in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church are wrecking any chances of good relations with the Russian Orthodox. Please see:
For Metropolitan Hilarion, Ukraine crisis ended preparations for meeting between pope and patriarch
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/For-Metropolitan-Hilarion,-Ukraine-crisis-ended-preparations-for-meeting-between-pope-and-patriarch-30750.html
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« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2014, 12:12:31 AM »

Perhaps I misunderstood something. Did someone actually say that a Mormon could reach theosis? They are no Church, and certainly not Christian, and very far from Orthodox Christian, as also the Watchtower Society (JW's) are.
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« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2014, 06:51:44 PM »

Perhaps I misunderstood something. Did someone actually say that a Mormon could reach theosis? They are no Church, and certainly not Christian, and very far from Orthodox Christian, as also the Watchtower Society (JW's) are.

In the guidelines for the reception of converts of the Antiochian Archdiocese, Mormons are treated as non-Christins and must be received by Baptism.

Fr. John W. Morris.
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« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2014, 02:01:18 PM »

Metropolitan Hilarion's article is right on target.. Another instigator, other than Stephan Bandera, is the Ukrainian Catholic leader Sviatoslav Shevchuk, who has made comments likens "Russian propaganda to Goebbels". The Vatican Insider. From the Denver Catholic Register were messages to Russia. "We in Ukraine wish to be good neighbors. Do not attack us. We are not your enemies and we have no aggressive intentions." The good archbishop continues with a message to the Russian Orthodox Church, whose leaders had too often been tacit or explicit mouthpieces for the Putin government's propaganda and lies.

Who is calling the kettle black? 
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« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2014, 06:56:03 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

My objection is that they are Orthodox wannabees.

They originate from Orthodoxy.  Were forced to leave the Faith...yet, still retain some vestiges.  They look like us, smell like us, even sound like us a lot of the time....and yet....

It's a shame that they can't realize they are now free to return to their Mother Church without persecution.

God willing they will see the Light.

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

I sympathize with them, but, I cannot understand why they insist on hanging on to Rome, even now.


As my old Baptist and Pentecostal friends would say, Amen, Amen, and Amen.
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« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2014, 07:02:00 PM »

I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence.

Such exist. 

Quote
My question to you is: Why hasn't the Vatican not only spoken out against the violence committed towards the Orthodox but also, why hasn't the Vatican apologized for past atrocities? 

If they did apologise, would the Orthodox accept it?   

Probably not when it is within the RC's very nature to commit such acts, as has been shown throughout the last 1000 years of history. Perhaps when they rejoin the Church such a reconciliation may be possible.
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« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2014, 07:31:40 PM »


History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.


If what is happening in Ukraine is due to a crusade by the Ukrainian Eastern rite Catholics, how come a  Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) has  condemned the “criminal actions of the government that provoked the bloodshed on the streets and squares of the gold-domed Kyiv” ?
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55476/


I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence. My question to you is: Why hasn't the Vatican not only spoken out against the violence committed towards the Orthodox but also, why hasn't the Vatican apologized for past atrocities?  Let's be clear it wasn't the government that provoked the violence, it was those individuals that wanted nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with the West.

Well let me help you remember.  When the Emperors used violence to subdue Miaphysites or political factions or Latins, when the Czars used it to subdue Old Believers and Catholics, and when the Communists used it to liquidate the Greek Catholics, the Orthodox said nothing.

And St John Paul II did apologize for Catholic atrocities.

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« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2014, 09:19:23 PM »


History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.


If what is happening in Ukraine is due to a crusade by the Ukrainian Eastern rite Catholics, how come a  Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) has  condemned the “criminal actions of the government that provoked the bloodshed on the streets and squares of the gold-domed Kyiv” ?
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55476/


I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence. My question to you is: Why hasn't the Vatican not only spoken out against the violence committed towards the Orthodox but also, why hasn't the Vatican apologized for past atrocities?  Let's be clear it wasn't the government that provoked the violence, it was those individuals that wanted nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with the West.

Well let me help you remember.  When the Emperors used violence to subdue Miaphysites or political factions or Latins, when the Czars used it to subdue Old Believers and Catholics, and when the Communists used it to liquidate the Greek Catholics, the Orthodox said nothing.

And St John Paul II did apologize for Catholic atrocities.

Gratuitous political comment removed from post  -PtA
that last, political, point I can't comment on here (see the green dot?).

As for your former supreme pontiff's apologies for the Vatican's atrocities, as has been pointed out before, they were less than straight forward.

As for the Emperors, you all claim the Orthodox didn't exist then-we aren't supposed to have entered history before 1054.  But your point would have some sharpness were it not for Archbishop Hormisdas of Old Rome demanding that the Emperor use the sword to make the bishops put their seal on the Formula of Hormisdas  (the Empeor, however, did not follow through on that).

This isn't the "Politics" section, and so not the place to talk of "political factions."  That would include the Latins.

As for the liquidation of the Vatican's beachheads, many Orthodox (including those who had returned to Orthodoxy from the Vatican's yoke) approved-as they had been when the Poles, Hungarians and Habsburgs persecuted them for voicing their approval.

You got us on the Old Ritualists.
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« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2014, 09:41:15 PM »

you all claim the Orthodox didn't exist then-we aren't supposed to have entered history before 1054. 

What, you mean it's not common knowledge that Michael Cerularios invented Eastern Orthodoxy? Shocked

Kidding. But anyhow, it's funny that you say "you all claim ..." since the Catholics who use that polemic generally dislike me as well as you. (Why do you think I'm always on OCnet?)
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« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2014, 09:44:27 PM »

you all claim the Orthodox didn't exist then-we aren't supposed to have entered history before 1054. 

What, you mean it's not common knowledge that Michael Cerularios invented Eastern Orthodoxy? Shocked

Kidding. But anyhow, it's funny that you say "you all claim ..." since the Catholics who use that polemic generally dislike me as well as you. (Why do you think I'm always on OCnet?)

Well, one of my (somewhat liberal) Catholic graduate professors, in his foundations of Church history course, had a section titled "Council of Trullo - the Creation of Eastern Orthodoxy" or something along those lines. I'm sure he loves you guys though.
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« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2014, 10:21:21 PM »

you all claim the Orthodox didn't exist then-we aren't supposed to have entered history before 1054. 

What, you mean it's not common knowledge that Michael Cerularios invented Eastern Orthodoxy? Shocked

Kidding. But anyhow, it's funny that you say "you all claim ..." since the Catholics who use that polemic generally dislike me as well as you. (Why do you think I'm always on OCnet?)

Well, one of my (somewhat liberal) Catholic graduate professors, in his foundations of Church history course, had a section titled "Council of Trullo - the Creation of Eastern Orthodoxy" or something along those lines. I'm sure he loves you guys though.

Interesting/weird.

Re the last sentence, what "you guys" are we talking about exactly?
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« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2014, 10:26:04 PM »

Well, one of my (somewhat liberal) Catholic graduate professors, in his foundations of Church history course, had a section titled "Council of Trullo - the Creation of Eastern Orthodoxy" or something along those lines. I'm sure he loves you guys though.

Interesting/weird.

Re the last sentence, what "you guys" are we talking about exactly?

Eastern/Oriental Catholics. I can only imagine that he think EC's to be the bearers of true Eastern Christianity or something rather than what Trullo created.
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« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2014, 10:44:32 PM »

Well, one of my (somewhat liberal) Catholic graduate professors, in his foundations of Church history course, had a section titled "Council of Trullo - the Creation of Eastern Orthodoxy" or something along those lines. I'm sure he loves you guys though.

Interesting/weird.

Re the last sentence, what "you guys" are we talking about exactly?

Eastern/Oriental Catholics.

I figured that might be what you meant, but I wanted to check since we weren't talking about Eastern/Oriental Catholics.

Quote
I can only imagine that he think EC's to be the bearers of true Eastern Christianity or something rather than what Trullo created.

Yeah, I've known a lot of Catholics who think that way.
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« Reply #79 on: June 09, 2014, 10:58:14 PM »


I figured that might be what you meant, but I wanted to check since we weren't talking about Eastern/Oriental Catholics.

I thought you were, although I may well have been mistaken, talking about your being an Eastern Catholic when you said "since the Catholics who use that polemic generally dislike me as well as you. (Why do you think I'm always on OCnet?)."
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« Reply #80 on: June 09, 2014, 11:15:46 PM »

I figured that might be what you meant, but I wanted to check since we weren't talking about Eastern/Oriental Catholics.

I thought you were, although I may well have been mistaken, talking about your being an Eastern Catholic when you said "since the Catholics who use that polemic generally dislike me as well as you. (Why do you think I'm always on OCnet?)."

But I wasn't using myself as an example of an EC, but of a Catholic who doesn't use the polemic that "the Orthodox didn't exist ... before 1054".
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« Reply #81 on: June 09, 2014, 11:40:25 PM »

Aside from the usual Orthodox objections to Catholicism posted here...

Some Catholics are called to move from the West to the East. I think Metropolitan Andrew (Sheptytsky), the Polish count who became the head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, should be canonized by the Catholic Church and made their patron saint.

I don't feel called to do that but wouldn't rule out living in the rite again.

...a Catholic who doesn't use the polemic that "the Orthodox didn't exist ... before 1054".

Again, because Catholicism doesn't hate Orthodoxy as Catholicism understands it (granted, that's different from how the Orthodox understand themselves), I wouldn't say that either, nor would I say the Byzantine Catholics are the sole rightful owners of the Byzantine tradition.
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« Reply #82 on: June 10, 2014, 09:17:27 AM »



Again, because Catholicism doesn't hate Orthodoxy as Catholicism understands it (granted, that's different from how the Orthodox understand themselves), I wouldn't say that either, nor would I say the Byzantine Catholics are the sole rightful owners of the Byzantine tradition.

^ This
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« Reply #83 on: June 10, 2014, 10:42:35 AM »

Pope St. John Paul II often spoke of the"healing of memories" in connection with relations between eastern and western Christians. I believe, based on my life's experience,  that it is through the overcoming of memory and allowing the historical hurt to be healed that a committed Eastern Catholic who understands the heart and soul of the Christian east must conclude that now is not the time to be united with the Pope and all that such unity demands of one under the current formulations of the Catholic faith of Rome. 

Yes, the Unia allowed for the preservation of enough of an eastern core over the centuries which would been lost among the East Slavs had they been forced into the Latin rite, but while it was enough to allow a flicker of the east to remain, it was always to be subservient to the fickle winds at Rome. Hence the Archbishop Ireland mentality always prevails or is lurking about.

This is what led two modern, well educated and gifted Greek Catholic priests of the 19th and 20th centuries to leave the comfort and security of life as a Greek Catholic priest to the uncertain and then tumultuous world of North American Orthodox Christianity. They were of course Father Toth, now St. Alexis and Father Orestes Chornock, who became a Metropolitan in the Orthodox Church. Each led thousands of faithful clergy and laity eastward and home to Orthodoxy, establishing what are today the OCA and the ACROD. (And perhaps inadvertently scared Rome away from further attempts to suppress Greek Catholics in the diaspora.)

Perhaps someday it will be the will of God that all Christians who sincerely profess the Faith of the Apostles and the Fathers may be as one. However, in the present day, no matter how politely we interact and respect one another on the world stage or how intently we pray and dialogue with each other; east and west are not, and can not be one in the Chalice while remaining true to the ancient Faith that is Orthodox.

So that is why my family and I are what  we are as Orthodox Christians. (I still love and respect my Greek Catholic friends and family , but I pray that they return to the Faith of their fathers until the time is truly right to share that cup.)

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« Reply #84 on: June 11, 2014, 09:17:48 AM »


History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.


If what is happening in Ukraine is due to a crusade by the Ukrainian Eastern rite Catholics, how come a  Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) has  condemned the “criminal actions of the government that provoked the bloodshed on the streets and squares of the gold-domed Kyiv” ?
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55476/


I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence. My question to you is: Why hasn't the Vatican not only spoken out against the violence committed towards the Orthodox but also, why hasn't the Vatican apologized for past atrocities?  Let's be clear it wasn't the government that provoked the violence, it was those individuals that wanted nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with the West.

Well let me help you remember.  When the Emperors used violence to subdue Miaphysites or political factions or Latins, when the Czars used it to subdue Old Believers and Catholics, and when the Communists used it to liquidate the Greek Catholics, the Orthodox said nothing.

And St John Paul II did apologize for Catholic atrocities.

Gratuitous political comment removed from post  -PtA


Subduing is quite different than actual violence against a certain group. The Russian Orthodox Church could not speak out concerning the orders from Stalin to liquidate the Eastern Rite Catholics. The Orthodox Church was a very weak puppet under communism. If you know anything about Stalin's rule, he purged or eliminated any opposition.

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« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2014, 04:23:22 PM »

On a brighter note, here is a long video from this Sunday's Pentecost Hierarachical Divine Liturgy at the Greek Catholic Cathedral in Bratislava, Slovakia.  I was going to play a prank and not identify it as such by not mentioning what it was, but when you get to the part where 'Frank' is commemorated, the gig would have been up.  My point always has been that in the authentic Greek Catholic tradition most of the beauty and majesty and teaching of the east is well preserved and alive. Had that not been so, I will say as I have always held that neither the OCA, the ACROD nor the UOC-USA would exist here in North America as they do today. You would't be worrying about Hellenization as they would be the only players in town.

This Hierarchical liturgy, including full vesting of the Bishop prior to liturgy, is in both Slovak vernacular and Church Slavonic. (As an aside i note the choir director uses an electronic piano to give his pitches...oh well....)  To insult these folks, who are the brothers and sisters in heritage of many North American Orthodox Christians, rather than to pray for their return to the true Church and to respect them in the meanwhile is far superior to the passing along of stereotypes, false impressions and outright lies as many do in the Orthodox world.

If you were in Christ the Savior Cathedral in Johnstown, PA or St. Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Presov, Slovakia last Sunday by the way, you would have seen the same liturgy, only with Orthodox dyptychs.

http://www.rtvs.sk/televizia/program/detail/3149/svata-bozska-liturgia-na-sviatok-svatej-patdesiatnice/archiv?date=08.06.2014
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« Reply #86 on: June 12, 2014, 11:30:24 AM »

I should clarify...by coming home to the 'true church'  I was attempting to convey that the Eastern Catholic churches are, in the present circumstance, neither  'a witness to unity' or a 'bridge between east and west' (those concepts having, officially at least, been discarded by Rome) ,and more importantly to us Orthodox the Eastern Catholic Churches are NOT a full autonomous particular Church with the ability to control their own house  bur rather are the proverbial 'fish out of water' or a square peg being fitted into a round hole in colloquial terminology. The true home for the faithful who profess an eastern theology and eccesiology is today found only within the Orthodox faith where their underlying theology and praxis can flourish and  be nourished, replenished  and truly maintained.

Look, Rome holds us Orthodox out to be 'sister' churches, yet at the same time proclaiming that we remain 'defective' in our eccesiology. It should be no stretch that even for the more open-minded of us Orthodox (who neither espouse the 'branch' theory or express our 'fraternal' relationship with Rome in quite the ontological sense that Rome appears to convey) that we faithful Orthodox do believe Rome's  ecclesiology to be defective.

If we did not so believe that of each other, there would be no impediment to a common cup. But each of us view what we believe to be the truth. So be it.
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« Reply #87 on: June 12, 2014, 12:09:19 PM »

In the noble cause of defending your culture, KOVO/ACROD stepped into the line of fire of dueling one-true-church claims. That said, yes, we have one and I defend it.

Quote
The Eastern Catholic churches are, in the present circumstance, neither 'a witness to unity' or a 'bridge between east and west'.

No and yes. Not true because yes, they ought to be a working model of unity, symbolically bridging the schism, in which we often fall short. True in the sense that we aren't using them to try to break up or replace the Orthodox churches; rather, we want to bring them all in and preserve their cultures.

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...the Eastern Catholic Churches are NOT a full autonomous particular Church with the ability to control their own house.

With byzcath.org and I imagine every Greek Catholic bishop or priest who's worked with your brother in ecumenical endeavors, I agree there's a ton of room for improvement in that regard.

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...but rather are the proverbial 'fish out of water' or a square peg being fitted into a round hole in colloquial terminology. The true home for the faithful who profess an eastern theology and eccesiology is today found only within the Orthodox faith where their underlying theology and praxis can flourish and  be nourished, replenished  and truly maintained.

I and educated Catholics hold that the Orthodox are the original owners of the Byzantine patrimony and that Greek Catholics have been treated badly; we, including the aforementioned Greek Catholic ecumenical workers, are trying mightily to correct that mistreatment, as you know. That said, going from defending your culture to denying the full churchness of and grace in ours, in my view, makes an idol of that culture/rite. (Like your valid criticism of the cult of Russia.) That's what I think is wrong with Orthodoxy.
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Peter J
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« Reply #88 on: June 12, 2014, 12:13:25 PM »

I can't buy that the Western Church, essentially the same, is not part of the true church.

Someone, I forget who, quotes St. John Maximovitch in their signature "Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern".
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- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
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« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2014, 12:21:25 PM »

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The Eastern Catholic churches are, in the present circumstance, neither 'a witness to unity' or a 'bridge between east and west'.

No and yes. Not true because yes, they ought to be a working model of unity, symbolically bridging the schism, in which we often fall short. True in the sense that we aren't using them to try to break up or replace the Orthodox churches; rather, we want to bring them all in and preserve their cultures.

Boy I get tired of hearing that. (I spend a lot of time on a coffee-themed Catholic discussion forum that will remain unnamed. Smiley) But, to be fair, you're probably not saying it in the triumphalistic way I've become accustomed to.  Cool
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