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Author Topic: why are you not a byzantine catholic  (Read 4679 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 21, 2014, 02:17:19 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2014, 02:21:52 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Byzantine Catholicism has many contradictions and internal discrepancies with Roman doctrine. (Such as Roman dogmatic acceptance of the Filioque, which Byzantines don't accept, and post-Schism Saints who were opposed to Rome being venerated by Byzantine Catholics, e.g., St. Photius, St. Gregory Palamas, St. Justinian) That, and I don't agree with Roman doctrine.
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2014, 02:42:26 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?


I used to be.  Not any more as they are subservient to the pope and are required to toe the the line and they are not Orthodox although some will tell you they are.

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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2014, 02:46:23 PM »

Even if I wanted to pray a Rosary in front of a Divine Mercy icon, Byzantine Catholicism is geographically prohibitive for me.
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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2014, 02:46:41 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

They seem to worship the Pope.

 Roll Eyes

 laugh

Just kidding. When I was a Melkite, most of the Melkites considered themselves Orthodox. The Pope was mentioned in the Liturgy because it was prescribed, but they did not consider themselves under Rome, but in communion with Rome.
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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2014, 03:03:07 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

I don't agree with their position on papal primacy.   
I don't agree with their acceptance of the Filioque in the creed, even if they don't use it. 
Nevertheless, in their defense, I think that in many cases their faith as practiced and lived is about as close to Orthodoxy without its entire fullness as you can get. 
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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2014, 03:05:22 PM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2014, 03:14:50 PM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

And because of that, Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochians once said that the Eastern Catholics are schizophrenic.
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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2014, 03:31:37 PM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

And because of that, Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochians once said that the Eastern Catholics are schizophrenic.
Some things said about Byzantine Catholics can be said about Western Orthodox.
Anyway, take a look at the schizophrenia in Ukraine today. Some want to be aligned with the EU, while others with Russia.
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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2014, 03:41:43 PM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

And because of that, Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochians once said that the Eastern Catholics are schizophrenic.
Some things said about Byzantine Catholics can be said about Western Orthodox.
Anyway, take a look at the schizophrenia in Ukraine today. Some want to be aligned with the EU, while others with Russia.

Exactly what does that have to do with being a Byzantine Catholic, or not?
Don't bring politics in to this discussion.
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2014, 03:44:22 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

My objection is that they are Orthodox wannabees.

They originate from Orthodoxy.  Were forced to leave the Faith...yet, still retain some vestiges.  They look like us, smell like us, even sound like us a lot of the time....and yet....

It's a shame that they can't realize they are now free to return to their Mother Church without persecution.

God willing they will see the Light.

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

I sympathize with them, but, I cannot understand why they insist on hanging on to Rome, even now.
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2014, 03:49:05 PM »

I didn't know it existed when I decided on orthodoxy. Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2014, 04:18:05 PM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

And because of that, Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochians once said that the Eastern Catholics are schizophrenic.
Some things said about Byzantine Catholics can be said about Western Orthodox.
Anyway, take a look at the schizophrenia in Ukraine today. Some want to be aligned with the EU, while others with Russia.

Exactly what does that have to do with being a Byzantine Catholic, or not?
Don't bring politics in to this discussion.

Byzantine Catholicism had its origin in the 1596 decision of the  union of Brest according to which a number of Orthodox bishops in Ukraine and nearby regions (including parts of Poland and Belarus and Lithuania) decided to align themselves with the western Church. Someone else brought up schizophrenia. I was only commenting on it and how it applies even today in Ukraine, which is where Byzantine Catholicism had its origin, at least in part. Why avoid politics if it is part of the discussion?
Further, if Byzantine Catholics are schizophrenic, why can't you say the same about the western rite Orthodox?
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2014, 04:35:48 PM »


I'm not calling anyone schizophrenic.  I think it's mean spirited and incorrect.
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2014, 04:41:22 PM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

And because of that, Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochians once said that the Eastern Catholics are schizophrenic.
Some things said about Byzantine Catholics can be said about Western Orthodox.
Anyway, take a look at the schizophrenia in Ukraine today. Some want to be aligned with the EU, while others with Russia.

Exactly what does that have to do with being a Byzantine Catholic, or not?
Don't bring politics in to this discussion.

Byzantine Catholicism had its origin in the 1596 decision of the  union of Brest according to which a number of Orthodox bishops in Ukraine and nearby regions (including parts of Poland and Belarus and Lithuania) decided to align themselves with the western Church. Someone else brought up schizophrenia. I was only commenting on it and how it applies even today in Ukraine, which is where Byzantine Catholicism had its origin, at least in part. Why avoid politics if it is part of the discussion?
Further, if Byzantine Catholics are schizophrenic, why can't you say the same about the western rite Orthodox?

Good point, if I had to answer, it would be because Byzantines appropriate Latin traditions and doctrines while trying to remain the way they are. Whereas, Western Orthodox conform their Latin traditions to Orthodox doctrine.
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2014, 04:46:01 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Everything.
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2014, 04:51:59 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Everything.

What do you have against the resurrection of Christ?
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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2014, 04:53:47 PM »


I'm not calling anyone schizophrenic.  I think it's mean spirited and incorrect.


Liza:

I don't think it is mean spirited nor incorrect at least in my case.  It really was a train wreck for me spiritually once I became truly aware of the Orthodox faith.  I went bonkers spiritually but landed on my feet in the Orthodox church.  Sorry if this offends some folks here but the older I get the less tolerance I have for trying to be politically correct. 

Viking   
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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2014, 05:07:03 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Everything.

What do you have against the resurrection of Christ?

You can probably still find some good Christian elements in Mormonism and the Jehova's Witnesses too.
A Byzantine Catholic should become Orthodox Christian, they are in heresy, a pretty OK decent heresy I'll admit.
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« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2014, 05:09:32 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Everything.

What do you have against the resurrection of Christ?

You can probably still find some good Christian elements in Mormonism and the Jehova's Witnesses too.
A Byzantine Catholic should become Orthodox Christian, they are in heresy, a pretty OK decent heresy I'll admit.

I don't think there is any way, in light of the ancient canons on modes of reception of schismatics and heretics, and millennia of church praxis on reception of converts, let alone the substantive teaching, that you can make such a comparison between Greek Catholics and Mormons/JWs. 
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« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2014, 05:14:22 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Everything.

What do you have against the resurrection of Christ?

You can probably still find some good Christian elements in Mormonism and the Jehova's Witnesses too.
A Byzantine Catholic should become Orthodox Christian, they are in heresy, a pretty OK decent heresy I'll admit.

I don't think there is any way, in light of the ancient canons on modes of reception of schismatics and heretics, and millennia of church praxis on reception of converts, let alone the substantive teaching, that you can make such a comparison between Greek Catholics and Mormons/JWs. 

A mormon, Greek Catholic or whatever can experience Theosis and be better than an Orthodox Christian.
But their organization or Church is still in schism.
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« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2014, 05:15:42 PM »


I'm not calling anyone schizophrenic.  I think it's mean spirited and incorrect.


Liza:

I don't think it is mean spirited nor incorrect at least in my case.  It really was a train wreck for me spiritually once I became truly aware of the Orthodox faith.  I went bonkers spiritually but landed on my feet in the Orthodox church.  Sorry if this offends some folks here but the older I get the less tolerance I have for trying to be politically correct.  

Viking  

I think that was the real intent of Father John Mangels. He was definitely not being mean-spirited. He knew too many Eastern/Roman Catholics because he was once a Roman Catholic too, so he knew the struggle they were going through. Thus, he advised those on the fence: "Put aside the schizophrenia of trying to be both Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christian, and become an Orthodox Christian."

You know the joke about the mugwump:
It is a bird that sits on the fence with his mug on one side and his wump on the other.
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« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2014, 05:17:03 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Everything.

What do you have against the resurrection of Christ?

They don't worship it. They worship papal tail.
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« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2014, 05:19:42 PM »

In light of some posts on the thread, let me just add...

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

I meant this in sympathy, though also in expressing my hesitancy to say much about it. It seems like no one--including even Byzantine Catholics priests I've heard--are particularly happy or satisfied with the situation as it now stands. Yet some find it still to be the best accommodation regarding the various ideas and practices pulling at them.
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« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2014, 05:19:59 PM »

They don't worship it. They worship papal tail.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=based
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« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2014, 05:44:35 PM »

It's a shame that they can't realize they are now free to return to their Mother Church without persecution.

God willing they will see the Light.

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

I sympathize with them, but, I cannot understand why they insist on hanging on to Rome, even now.

I would say many do realize they can become part of the Orthodox Church again, but most have no desire to do so. There has been a lot of bad blood between the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics. Perhaps the most recent scar was the support the Orthodox gave when the Soviets suppressed the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the 1940's. They hang onto Rome because many of their forefathers gave their lives in witness of the Catholic faith. Also, many hang on to Rome because they believe that the Catholic Church is the Church.
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« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2014, 06:02:22 PM »

Yes, if you are happy with your family, and they are Byzantine Catholic, sometimes there is no desire to look elsewhere.

My mother is Carpatho-Russian Byzantine Catholic and I was fascinated as a child with Byzantine Catholicism. The candles, the icons, the chanting.  So different from the post Vatican II Roman Catholic churches.  When I looked deeper, I was humbled by the stories of the Byzantine priests who were martyred under Soviet persecution.  Bishops and priests who were executed.  But, one stood out for me, and that was Alexander Chira.   When he was sent to Soviet prison, he was imprisoned for quite a long time.  One of his cell-mates was a Jew who eventually made it to Israel, and he shared what it was like to be with Alexander Chira.  He told of a very peaceful, devout man.  Some other cell-mate was stealing food, and to get them to confess, they focused the abuse on Alexander Chira, who was sickly and frail, to tell who had stolen the food.   Instead of telling, Alexander Chira took the punishment for the cell-mate that had stolen food.   The prison picture that was published, showed Alexander Chira with his beard shaven, but with the kindest eyes and the most peaceful expression.   He seemed to have accepted his cross and was focused on God.   After many years he was released and sent to Central Siberia where he functioned clandestinely as a priest.  It was hard for me to turn my back on these heroes.  But, ultimately God called me to Orthodoxy. 


It's a shame that they can't realize they are now free to return to their Mother Church without persecution.

God willing they will see the Light.

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

I sympathize with them, but, I cannot understand why they insist on hanging on to Rome, even now.

I would say many do realize they can become part of the Orthodox Church again, but most have no desire to do so. There has been a lot of bad blood between the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics. Perhaps the most recent scar was the support the Orthodox gave when the Soviets suppressed the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the 1940's. They hang onto Rome because many of their forefathers gave their lives in witness of the Catholic faith. Also, many hang on to Rome because they believe that the Catholic Church is the Church.

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« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2014, 06:08:58 PM »

We should not judge.

I think the Final Judgment will be a shock to most of us.

There may well be some Roman Catholics who have higher places in Heaven than we do.

However, we must discern and choose the truth. This is not easy as we are sinners.

Lord have mercy.

Yes, if you are happy with your family, and they are Byzantine Catholic, sometimes there is no desire to look elsewhere.

My mother is Carpatho-Russian Byzantine Catholic and I was fascinated as a child with Byzantine Catholicism. The candles, the icons, the chanting.  So different from the post Vatican II Roman Catholic churches.  When I looked deeper, I was humbled by the stories of the Byzantine priests who were martyred under Soviet persecution.  Bishops and priests who were executed.  But, one stood out for me, and that was Alexander Chira.   When he was sent to Soviet prison, he was imprisoned for quite a long time.  One of his cell-mates was a Jew who eventually made it to Israel, and he shared what it was like to be with Alexander Chira.  He told of a very peaceful, devout man.  Some other cell-mate was stealing food, and to get them to confess, they focused the abuse on Alexander Chira, who was sickly and frail, to tell who had stolen the food.   Instead of telling, Alexander Chira took the punishment for the cell-mate that had stolen food.   The prison picture that was published, showed Alexander Chira with his beard shaven, but with the kindest eyes and the most peaceful expression.   He seemed to have accepted his cross and was focused on God.   After many years he was released and sent to Central Siberia where he functioned clandestinely as a priest.  It was hard for me to turn my back on these heroes.  But, ultimately God called me to Orthodoxy. 


It's a shame that they can't realize they are now free to return to their Mother Church without persecution.

God willing they will see the Light.

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

I sympathize with them, but, I cannot understand why they insist on hanging on to Rome, even now.

I would say many do realize they can become part of the Orthodox Church again, but most have no desire to do so. There has been a lot of bad blood between the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics. Perhaps the most recent scar was the support the Orthodox gave when the Soviets suppressed the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the 1940's. They hang onto Rome because many of their forefathers gave their lives in witness of the Catholic faith. Also, many hang on to Rome because they believe that the Catholic Church is the Church.


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« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2014, 07:12:39 PM »

I don't think there is any way, in light of the ancient canons on modes of reception of schismatics and heretics, and millennia of church praxis on reception of converts, let alone the substantive teaching, that you can make such a comparison between Greek Catholics and Mormons/JWs. 

Yes, but never let facts get in the way of a grudge. 
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« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2014, 07:15:28 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Everything.

What do you have against the resurrection of Christ?

You can probably still find some good Christian elements in Mormonism and the Jehova's Witnesses too.
A Byzantine Catholic should become Orthodox Christian, they are in heresy, a pretty OK decent heresy I'll admit.

My intention was simply to point out that the answer to "What are your objections to the Byzantine Catholic faith?" cannot be "Everything" unless ignorance is now truth.  But judging from some of the responses, maybe it is.   
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« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2014, 08:12:27 PM »

I meant this in sympathy, though also in expressing my hesitancy to say much about it. It seems like no one--including even Byzantine Catholics priests I've heard--are particularly happy or satisfied with the situation as it now stands. Yet some find it still to be the best accommodation regarding the various ideas and practices pulling at them.

Yeah, the recent Melkite archbishop Elias Zoghby that I keep throwing around on this forum seemed to pretty much say that Eastern Catholics are in a bad place, historically and now. He said something along the lines of: Eastern Catholics aren't fully Orthodox, yet Orthodox aren't fully Catholic (because of the East-West Schism). Nobody wins, really, except those EC's that are okay with being under the Latin Church I suppose.
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« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2014, 08:21:40 PM »

I meant this in sympathy, though also in expressing my hesitancy to say much about it. It seems like no one--including even Byzantine Catholics priests I've heard--are particularly happy or satisfied with the situation as it now stands. Yet some find it still to be the best accommodation regarding the various ideas and practices pulling at them.

Yeah, the recent Melkite archbishop Elias Zoghby that I keep throwing around on this forum seemed to pretty much say that Eastern Catholics are in a bad place, historically and now. He said something along the lines of: Eastern Catholics aren't fully Orthodox, yet Orthodox aren't fully Catholic (because of the East-West Schism). Nobody wins, really, except those EC's that are okay with being under the Latin Church I suppose.

Many Eastern Catholics that I have known are not really happy with the situation as it is. They feel that they are between a rock and a hard place. Archbishop Zoghby resounds a favorable note with them. However, they realize that his plan is not realistic nor acceptable at the Vatican. On the one hand, they do not like Vatican interference in their daily affairs, nor being treated like a step-child and ignored by the Vatican. Yet, on the other hand, they do not like the idea of having to become a catechumen and accept Chrismation in order to become Orthodox Christians as they believe that they are already Orthodox Christians.

Nevertheless, I have met some very devout Melkites.

Edit: I must add that as an Orthodox Christian, I feel the presence of Divine Grace in the struggles I must face. When I was in a cloistered monastery, and we were listening to tapes by by the late Fr. Thomas Merton who was promoting Buddhism, I felt so cold spiritually. At that point, I realized that something was wrong with Roman Catholicism.  I have not looked back or wanted to return to Roman Catholicism.
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« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2014, 08:48:01 PM »

I suppose I am not a Byzantine Catholic for the same reasons I am not a Roman Catholic. I disagree with a number of Catholic doctrines. That being said, I admire the Roman Catholic Church in many respects (I almost became one), and I did consider Eastern Catholicism. Roman Catholics who admire Orthodoxy are often asked "Why don't you just become an Eastern Catholic?"
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« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2014, 08:52:11 PM »

I suppose I am not a Byzantine Catholic for the same reasons I am not a Roman Catholic. I disagree with a number of Catholic doctrines. That being said, I admire the Roman Catholic Church in many respects (I almost became one), and I did consider Eastern Catholicism. Roman Catholics who admire Orthodoxy are often asked "Why don't you just become an Eastern Catholic?"

Yes, I was asked that question, so I became an Eastern Catholic, but once I started actively participating in retreats and conferences, I realized that quite a few of my fellow parishioners were seeking instruction in Orthodox Christianity. When I left to start the Orthodox catechumenate, about three parishioners left with me. Since then, quite a few more have left the parish to embrace Orthodoxy.

The Melkite Bishop said with discouragement that the Melkite Church was to be a bridge leading Orthodox Christians "home" to Rome, instead it is drawing Roman Catholics first into the Melkite Church and then into Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2014, 10:11:28 PM »

Many Eastern Catholics that I have known are not really happy with the situation as it is. They feel that they are between a rock and a hard place. Archbishop Zoghby resounds a favorable note with them. However, they realize that his plan is not realistic nor acceptable at the Vatican. On the one hand, they do not like Vatican interference in their daily affairs, nor being treated like a step-child and ignored by the Vatican.

I wonder which Eastern Catholic Churches tend to feel this way or not.

To show what I mean, the few Byzantine Catholics (Ruthenians) I know appear to be very content with the situation. They behave almost as if they're just a unique Rite-specific diocese in the Latin Church. So while they have a very Eastern church, talk about Eastern saints and fasting/feast days, they're also just as much about Latin saints, devotions, apparitions, current events etc., and Latin hierarchs/the Pope (I never see them mention their own hierarchs). They're very much into Eastern Code of Canon Law or whatever, Vatican II (e.g. its Orientalium Ecclesiarum), etc. I'm not sure why, but all of it makes me feel awkward to see.

This contrasts with the Melkites I've seen and read from who seem to go out of their way to affirm their Melkite Antiochian identity, and that they are not just indirect subjects of the Latin Church.
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« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2014, 10:22:12 PM »

I know Eastern Catholic ( Not all eastern Catholics are the same ) but this one doesn't believe in Purgatory, Filique, Rome's primacy, doesn't believe that the Pope is the vicar of Christ on earth, even the liturgy/mass in the church is so so similar to the Orthodox liturgy.

I never want to become Byzantine Catholic because with all due respect, I don't want to live two lives, one where I'm faithful to the Orthodox beliefs, yet, I'm in communion with a religious institute that is against what Orthodoxy teaches, it doesn't mix.

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« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2014, 10:31:36 PM »

SWYP?
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« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2014, 10:33:21 PM »

Eastern Catholics are a broad spectrum, ranging from those who are fully Roman Catholic in mentality, while using the "bells and smells" of Orthodoxy in their worship, to those whose only concessions to Rome are using the Gregorian calendar for their Paschal liturgical cycle, and commemorating the Pope of Rome in litanies.
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« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2014, 10:56:34 PM »

I know Eastern Catholic ( Not all eastern Catholics are the same ) but this one doesn't believe in Purgatory, Filique, Rome's primacy, doesn't believe that the Pope is the vicar of Christ on earth, even the liturgy/mass in the church is so so similar to the Orthodox liturgy.

I never want to become Byzantine Catholic because with all due respect, I don't want to live two lives, one where I'm faithful to the Orthodox beliefs, yet, I'm in communion with a religious institute that is against what Orthodoxy teaches, it doesn't mix.



Then he is defying the pope and according to the RC that means he is going to hell. Their words not mine.  Why does he not just become Orthodox and stop with the silliness?

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« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2014, 01:04:29 AM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

+1000.  They try to have it both ways and you can't.  You're either in the una sancta or you're not.  Byz Catholics are not.
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« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2014, 01:04:29 AM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?
It is Byzantine, meaning it is not the heritage of New Rome, but the Vatican inspired caricature of it, and it does not hold to the Catholic Faith of the Orthodox Creed.
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« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2014, 03:05:45 AM »


I'm not calling anyone schizophrenic.  I think it's mean spirited and incorrect.

Thanks Liza. I suppose it could have unpleasant connotations in some sense of the term.
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« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2014, 03:51:13 AM »

...

My intention was simply to point out that the answer to "What are your objections to the Byzantine Catholic faith?" cannot be "Everything" unless ignorance is now truth.  
...

Not necessarily. If someone regards them as being a mockery of everything they manifest, the statement "everything" is absolutely valid.
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« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2014, 03:57:48 AM »

The historical facts of the byzantine catholics do not make sense to me to be the true church

to me there were two options that I faced when looking for the church

the roman catholics made sense enough for me. the centeralization made sense, an orderly church with clear ranks. this was just superficial admiration of course, i did not study into the catholic church i just knew it had an apostolic succession. I never thought seriously about  becoming a catholic, as i found out that the first and second vatican councils occured, from there on i read more and more things which did not make sense to me in their history so i looked elsewhere, and read about the orthodox church

the byzantine catholics made less sense than the normal catholics to me
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« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2014, 08:51:07 AM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

And because of that, Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochians once said that the Eastern Catholics are schizophrenic.

I'd say first that as heirs to the churches of the East we ARE Byzantine Carholics in the truest sense.

The churches of the so-called Eastern Rites came into existence as a result of political considerations. When the Dodecanese Islands came under Venetian rule, or Cyprus under Latin Franks, or when the Western Ukraine was conquered by Poland, for example, some provision had to be made for an Orthodox Christian population under a government in obedience to the Bishop of Rome. It was an accommodation, if you will, and probably preferable to mass forced conversions. The result is some 20-plus ER jurisdictions under Rome, with a complete code of canon law to themselves.

I don't believe any Orthodox Christian would say there's no difference, that the Eastern Rites are simply Orthodox under Rome. And I think it's more than just the standard list of theological objections. Even the words we have in common feel different in an Eastern Rite church.

The wound to Christ's church is deep and tragic--not only along lines of East and West. Within the Orthodox communities themselves we are not one. We give weight to the folly of our own reasonings instead of remembering what we share: a faith in the Risen Lord.
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« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2014, 10:55:42 AM »

Not necessarily. If someone regards them as being a mockery of everything they manifest, the statement "everything" is absolutely valid.

Or "someone" needs to get a grip.  And I say that as a steadfast opponent of RC/EC activity in my homeland, both historically and even currently. 
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« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2014, 12:02:58 AM »

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

Interesting, that is the same thing I hear some Latin Trads say about the Orthodox.  Your both full of it.   Has The Lord granted either of you the gift of reading hearts or searching souls?  I know Metropolitan Constantine and Archbishop Vsevolod of blessed memory and Metropolitan Anthony and Bishop Daniel would not approve of such a condescending statement.
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« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2014, 01:51:28 PM »

The churches of the so-called Eastern Rites came into existence as a result of political considerations. When the Dodecanese Islands came under Venetian rule, or Cyprus under Latin Franks, or when the Western Ukraine was conquered by Poland, for example, some provision had to be made for an Orthodox Christian population under a government in obedience to the Bishop of Rome. It was an accommodation, if you will, and probably preferable to mass forced conversions. The result is some 20-plus ER jurisdictions under Rome, with a complete code of canon law to themselves.

I don't believe any Orthodox Christian would say there's no difference, that the Eastern Rites are simply Orthodox under Rome. And I think it's more than just the standard list of theological objections. Even the words we have in common feel different in an Eastern Rite church.

The wound to Christ's church is deep and tragic--not only along lines of East and West. Within the Orthodox communities themselves we are not one. We give weight to the folly of our own reasonings instead of remembering what we share: a faith in the Risen Lord.



It was far from "a result of political considerations" or the fact that "some provisions had to be made for an Orthodox population."
The reality was the Latinization or eradication of the Orthodox believers. The "U" was created in Poland by two Jesuits and the plan was to Latinize the Orthodox of Poland and south-west Russia. With the help of the Polish King Synods at Brest(1595-96) was formed. Since then the forced conversion of Orthodox to the papists began, churches confiscated, Orthodox were murdered, tortured, or sent into exile.
As a result of the violent actions of Greek Catholics in the 80's and 90's Orthodox believers had been deprived of their churches and their rights are still trampled on.

It all began with Rome's self appointed papal authority. Prior to the events in July 1054, the Byzantine Churches in Southern Italy were forced to accept the Latin Rite. Pope Leo sent Cardinal Humber and legates to Constantinople to meet with Patriarch Cerularius. There were tone two meetings. During the first Cardinal Humbert and his legates acted very disrespectful towards the Patriarch and because of this the Patriarch refused the second meeting. Quite annoyed Cardinal Humbert and his legates entered Hagia Sophia, which was filled with worshippers, interrupted the Liturgy, entered the alter, made accusations against the Patriarch and placed the bull of excommunication on the alter table. Since then there has been a pattern.

1204-the 4th Crusade sacks Constantinople. Latins set up their own Patriarch, to compete with the Orthodox. This was to take place in the other Orthodox Patriarchates.
1211-Venetian Crusaders conquer Byzantine Crete.
1281-Pope Martin IV authorizes a crusade against the re-established Byzantine Empire in Constantinople.
1924-15- Austro-Hungarian Empire eradicates Orthodox believers. Many are sent to concentration camps. Talerhof and Terezin.
1938-Volhynia Western Ukraine, the Polish government oversaw the destruction of hundreds of Orthodox Churches and hundreds more were turned over to the Latin Rite. This was occurring all over the Carpathian Mountain regions in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Western Ukraine.
1943-44 Hundres of Orthodox priests eliminated and tortured by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, aided by "U" Metropolitan Josyf Slipyj. During this time was also the zenith of the papist persecution in Poland by Polish Catholics against the Orthodox faithful.
1940's- The Serbian Orthodox massacre.

History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.



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« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2014, 03:53:24 PM »

 
History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.


If what is happening in Ukraine is due to a crusade by the Ukrainian Eastern rite Catholics, how come a  Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) has  condemned the “criminal actions of the government that provoked the bloodshed on the streets and squares of the gold-domed Kyiv” ?
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55476/
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« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2014, 04:10:11 PM »

The churches of the so-called Eastern Rites came into existence as a result of political considerations. When the Dodecanese Islands came under Venetian rule, or Cyprus under Latin Franks, or when the Western Ukraine was conquered by Poland, for example, some provision had to be made for an Orthodox Christian population under a government in obedience to the Bishop of Rome. It was an accommodation, if you will, and probably preferable to mass forced conversions. The result is some 20-plus ER jurisdictions under Rome, with a complete code of canon law to themselves.

I don't believe any Orthodox Christian would say there's no difference, that the Eastern Rites are simply Orthodox under Rome. And I think it's more than just the standard list of theological objections. Even the words we have in common feel different in an Eastern Rite church.

The wound to Christ's church is deep and tragic--not only along lines of East and West. Within the Orthodox communities themselves we are not one. We give weight to the folly of our own reasonings instead of remembering what we share: a faith in the Risen Lord.


It was far from "a result of political considerations" or the fact that "some provisions had to be made for an Orthodox population."
The reality was the Latinization or eradication of the Orthodox believers. The "U" was created in Poland by two Jesuits and the plan was to Latinize the Orthodox of Poland and south-west Russia. With the help of the Polish King Synods at Brest(1595-96) was formed. Since then the forced conversion of Orthodox to the papists began, churches confiscated, Orthodox were murdered, tortured, or sent into exile.
As a result of the violent actions of Greek Catholics in the 80's and 90's Orthodox believers had been deprived of their churches and their rights are still trampled on.

It all began with Rome's self appointed papal authority. Prior to the events in July 1054, the Byzantine Churches in Southern Italy were forced to accept the Latin Rite. Pope Leo sent Cardinal Humber and legates to Constantinople to meet with Patriarch Cerularius. There were tone two meetings. During the first Cardinal Humbert and his legates acted very disrespectful towards the Patriarch and because of this the Patriarch refused the second meeting. Quite annoyed Cardinal Humbert and his legates entered Hagia Sophia, which was filled with worshippers, interrupted the Liturgy, entered the alter, made accusations against the Patriarch and placed the bull of excommunication on the alter table. Since then there has been a pattern.

1204-the 4th Crusade sacks Constantinople. Latins set up their own Patriarch, to compete with the Orthodox. This was to take place in the other Orthodox Patriarchates.
1211-Venetian Crusaders conquer Byzantine Crete.
1281-Pope Martin IV authorizes a crusade against the re-established Byzantine Empire in Constantinople.
1924-15- Austro-Hungarian Empire eradicates Orthodox believers. Many are sent to concentration camps. Talerhof and Terezin.
1938-Volhynia Western Ukraine, the Polish government oversaw the destruction of hundreds of Orthodox Churches and hundreds more were turned over to the Latin Rite. This was occurring all over the Carpathian Mountain regions in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Western Ukraine.
1943-44 Hundres of Orthodox priests eliminated and tortured by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, aided by "U" Metropolitan Josyf Slipyj. During this time was also the zenith of the papist persecution in Poland by Polish Catholics against the Orthodox faithful.
1940's- The Serbian Orthodox massacre.

History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.



Yes, that's why the people of Lviv decided to speak Russian for two days to show their support for their eastern brethren.  They're clearly speaking Russian as part of a sinister plot against Russia.  O the horror!



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« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2014, 08:36:06 AM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

And because of that, Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochians once said that the Eastern Catholics are schizophrenic.
Some things said about Byzantine Catholics can be said about Western Orthodox.
Anyway, take a look at the schizophrenia in Ukraine today. Some want to be aligned with the EU, while others with Russia.

Exactly what does that have to do with being a Byzantine Catholic, or not?
Don't bring politics in to this discussion.

Byzantine Catholicism had its origin in the 1596 decision of the  union of Brest according to which a number of Orthodox bishops in Ukraine and nearby regions (including parts of Poland and Belarus and Lithuania) decided to align themselves with the western Church. Someone else brought up schizophrenia. I was only commenting on it and how it applies even today in Ukraine, which is where Byzantine Catholicism had its origin, at least in part. Why avoid politics if it is part of the discussion?
Further, if Byzantine Catholics are schizophrenic, why can't you say the same about the western rite Orthodox?

There were Eastern Rite Christians before the Union of Brest. I don't know the whole history of the BC church, but from at least the time the Latin kingdom of Jerusalem was established at the end of the First Crusade (1098) Greek Christians have been subject to rulers owing spiritual allegiance to Rome. Also, many of the territories of the Eastern Aegean were ruled by or feudatories of Venice, e.g., the Duchy of Athens, the Duchy of Naxos, etc. And Cyprus was ruled by the Franco-Norman Lusignan family for hundreds of years, until well into the 15th century. I'm not aware of large-scale conversions to Rome in any of these cases. It'd be great to hear from someone expert in the history of the Eastern Rite.
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« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2014, 08:45:10 AM »

 
History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.


If what is happening in Ukraine is due to a crusade by the Ukrainian Eastern rite Catholics, how come a  Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) has  condemned the “criminal actions of the government that provoked the bloodshed on the streets and squares of the gold-domed Kyiv” ?
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55476/


I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence. My question to you is: Why hasn't the Vatican not only spoken out against the violence committed towards the Orthodox but also, why hasn't the Vatican apologized for past atrocities?  Let's be clear it wasn't the government that provoked the violence, it was those individuals that wanted nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with the West.
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« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2014, 09:57:54 AM »

I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence.

Such exist. 

Quote
My question to you is: Why hasn't the Vatican not only spoken out against the violence committed towards the Orthodox but also, why hasn't the Vatican apologized for past atrocities? 

If they did apologise, would the Orthodox accept it?   
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« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2014, 10:00:38 AM »

I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence.

Such exist. 

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« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2014, 10:03:46 AM »

As a result of the violent actions of Greek Catholics in the 80's and 90's Orthodox believers had been deprived of their churches and their rights are still trampled on.

It all began with Rome's self appointed papal authority. Prior to the events in July 1054, the Byzantine Churches in Southern Italy were forced to accept the Latin Rite. Pope Leo sent Cardinal Humber and legates to Constantinople to meet with Patriarch Cerularius. There were tone two meetings. During the first Cardinal Humbert and his legates acted very disrespectful towards the Patriarch and because of this the Patriarch refused the second meeting. Quite annoyed Cardinal Humbert and his legates entered Hagia Sophia, which was filled with worshippers, interrupted the Liturgy, entered the alter, made accusations against the Patriarch and placed the bull of excommunication on the alter table. Since then there has been a pattern.

1204-the 4th Crusade sacks Constantinople. Latins set up their own Patriarch, to compete with the Orthodox. This was to take place in the other Orthodox Patriarchates.
1211-Venetian Crusaders conquer Byzantine Crete.
1281-Pope Martin IV authorizes a crusade against the re-established Byzantine Empire in Constantinople.
1924-15- Austro-Hungarian Empire eradicates Orthodox believers. Many are sent to concentration camps. Talerhof and Terezin.
1938-Volhynia Western Ukraine, the Polish government oversaw the destruction of hundreds of Orthodox Churches and hundreds more were turned over to the Latin Rite. This was occurring all over the Carpathian Mountain regions in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Western Ukraine.
1943-44 Hundres of Orthodox priests eliminated and tortured by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, aided by "U" Metropolitan Josyf Slipyj. During this time was also the zenith of the papist persecution in Poland by Polish Catholics against the Orthodox faithful.
1940's- The Serbian Orthodox massacre.

History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.

Hey, I'm all about Orthodoxy being great and everything, but this kind of historical tunnel vision is dangerous and disturbing. If you can't see the wrongs on the Orthodox side in your time line then there is really no hope of ever reconciling or having a meaningful discussion with all of these other Christians.
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« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2014, 11:32:17 AM »

I only met a Melkite (well, actually an RC that was going to change rites) once that came to my parish and stayed for coffee hour.  He was all about being "orthodox in communion with Rome" and telling the few of us that were there, including our Deacon, that there was no difference and we should all have communion together.  I'm sure he's not wholly representative of all Melkites and other eastern Catholics, but I wasn't going to bother to test the waters.
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« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2014, 03:19:02 PM »

  Let's be clear it wasn't the government that provoked the violence, it was those individuals that wanted nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with the West.
Well, that was my question as to why this was not clear to the Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) which  condemned the “criminal actions of the government that provoked the bloodshed on the streets and squares of the gold-domed Kyiv” ?
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55476/


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« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2014, 09:00:49 AM »

Hey, I'm all about Orthodoxy being great and everything, but this kind of historical tunnel vision is dangerous and disturbing. If you can't see the wrongs on the Orthodox side in your time line then there is really no hope of ever reconciling or having a meaningful discussion with all of these other Christians.



It has nothing to do with "tunnel vision", I am making a point with respect to the topic being discussed. I was never implying that the Orthodox side has always been perfect, but throughout history it has been the Orthodox that have been the target.



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« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2014, 02:45:00 PM »

 
History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.


If what is happening in Ukraine is due to a crusade by the Ukrainian Eastern rite Catholics, how come a  Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) has  condemned the “criminal actions of the government that provoked the bloodshed on the streets and squares of the gold-domed Kyiv” ?
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55476/


I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence. My question to you is: Why hasn't the Vatican not only spoken out against the violence committed towards the Orthodox but also, why hasn't the Vatican apologized for past atrocities?  Let's be clear it wasn't the government that provoked the violence, it was those individuals that wanted nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with the West.
Let's reserve commentary on who's to blame for the conflict in Ukraine for the Politics board where such discussion belongs. It's too hot a topic right now for discussion here.

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« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2014, 03:09:58 PM »

I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence.

Such exist. 

Ever seen how homosexuals are treated in Russia? It can be scary at times.
ever been to San Francisco?  Homosexuals can be scary at times.
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« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2014, 10:49:33 AM »

Ever seen how homosexuals are treated in Russia? It can be scary at times.
ever been to San Francisco?  Homosexuals can be scary at times.

xOrthodox4Christ seems to have forgotten that two wrongs makes a right.
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« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2014, 11:06:16 AM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

My objection is that they are Orthodox wannabees.

They originate from Orthodoxy.  Were forced to leave the Faith...yet, still retain some vestiges.  They look like us, smell like us, even sound like us a lot of the time....and yet....

This ^^ is an extremely broad generalization. There are a great many Eastern Catholics who are, if you will, "just EC". I don't mean that as a criticism mind you. To put it another way, they're like the Western-Rite Orthodox, in reverse.

Then there are others (a minority) who are, if you will, "Orthodox in communion with Rome." I'm not entirely crazy about that choice of words, as it offends the Orthodox, but there's no question that some kind of term is needed to distinguish them from the "just ECs". (The Melkite patriarch once employed an alternate phrase "Orthodox with a plus" ... if I were him I would have said "Catholic with a plus" ... but for some strange reason, popes and patriarchs tend not to consult me before they say things.  Cheesy)

Finally there are those (an even smaller minority, I believe) who conflate Easternness with Orthodoxy. It seems to me that it is only this latter idea that is truly problematic.

It's a shame that they can't realize they are now free to return to their Mother Church without persecution.

God willing they will see the Light.

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

I sympathize with them, but, I cannot understand why they insist on hanging on to Rome, even now.

FWIW, I always say that I have no intention of leaving Catholicism for Orthodoxy ... but if somehow I were Orthodox, I certainly wouldn't leave Orthodoxy for Catholicism. (Of course, you may not like that answer, so maybe I should have just said "No, it's a shame that the WRO don't realize they can return to their Mother Church.  Grin)
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« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2014, 11:17:32 AM »

Ever seen how homosexuals are treated in Russia? It can be scary at times.
ever been to San Francisco?  Homosexuals can be scary at times.

xOrthodox4Christ seems to have forgotten that two wrongs makes a right.

Not two wrongs, but three lefts. 
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« Reply #63 on: March 08, 2014, 02:46:08 PM »

Ever seen how homosexuals are treated in Russia? It can be scary at times.
ever been to San Francisco?  Homosexuals can be scary at times.

xOrthodox4Christ seems to have forgotten that two wrongs makes a right.

Not two wrongs, but three lefts. 

Actually, it's four square wrongs.
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« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2014, 10:46:23 PM »

The churches of the so-called Eastern Rites came into existence as a result of political considerations. When the Dodecanese Islands came under Venetian rule, or Cyprus under Latin Franks, or when the Western Ukraine was conquered by Poland, for example, some provision had to be made for an Orthodox Christian population under a government in obedience to the Bishop of Rome. It was an accommodation, if you will, and probably preferable to mass forced conversions. The result is some 20-plus ER jurisdictions under Rome, with a complete code of canon law to themselves.

I don't believe any Orthodox Christian would say there's no difference, that the Eastern Rites are simply Orthodox under Rome. And I think it's more than just the standard list of theological objections. Even the words we have in common feel different in an Eastern Rite church.

The wound to Christ's church is deep and tragic--not only along lines of East and West. Within the Orthodox communities themselves we are not one. We give weight to the folly of our own reasonings instead of remembering what we share: a faith in the Risen Lord.



It was far from "a result of political considerations" or the fact that "some provisions had to be made for an Orthodox population."
The reality was the Latinization or eradication of the Orthodox believers. The "U" was created in Poland by two Jesuits and the plan was to Latinize the Orthodox of Poland and south-west Russia. With the help of the Polish King Synods at Brest(1595-96) was formed. Since then the forced conversion of Orthodox to the papists began, churches confiscated, Orthodox were murdered, tortured, or sent into exile.
As a result of the violent actions of Greek Catholics in the 80's and 90's Orthodox believers had been deprived of their churches and their rights are still trampled on.

It all began with Rome's self appointed papal authority. Prior to the events in July 1054, the Byzantine Churches in Southern Italy were forced to accept the Latin Rite. Pope Leo sent Cardinal Humber and legates to Constantinople to meet with Patriarch Cerularius. There were tone two meetings. During the first Cardinal Humbert and his legates acted very disrespectful towards the Patriarch and because of this the Patriarch refused the second meeting. Quite annoyed Cardinal Humbert and his legates entered Hagia Sophia, which was filled with worshippers, interrupted the Liturgy, entered the alter, made accusations against the Patriarch and placed the bull of excommunication on the alter table. Since then there has been a pattern.

1204-the 4th Crusade sacks Constantinople. Latins set up their own Patriarch, to compete with the Orthodox. This was to take place in the other Orthodox Patriarchates.
1211-Venetian Crusaders conquer Byzantine Crete.
1281-Pope Martin IV authorizes a crusade against the re-established Byzantine Empire in Constantinople.
1924-15- Austro-Hungarian Empire eradicates Orthodox believers. Many are sent to concentration camps. Talerhof and Terezin.
1938-Volhynia Western Ukraine, the Polish government oversaw the destruction of hundreds of Orthodox Churches and hundreds more were turned over to the Latin Rite. This was occurring all over the Carpathian Mountain regions in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Western Ukraine.
1943-44 Hundres of Orthodox priests eliminated and tortured by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, aided by "U" Metropolitan Josyf Slipyj. During this time was also the zenith of the papist persecution in Poland by Polish Catholics against the Orthodox faithful.
1940's- The Serbian Orthodox massacre.

History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.



There was no Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1924. The Austro-Hungarian empire ended with the First World War in 1918.

Fr. John W. Morris



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« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2014, 10:48:11 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

My objection is that they are Orthodox wannabees.

They originate from Orthodoxy.  Were forced to leave the Faith...yet, still retain some vestiges.  They look like us, smell like us, even sound like us a lot of the time....and yet....

This ^^ is an extremely broad generalization. There are a great many Eastern Catholics who are, if you will, "just EC". I don't mean that as a criticism mind you. To put it another way, they're like the Western-Rite Orthodox, in reverse.

Then there are others (a minority) who are, if you will, "Orthodox in communion with Rome." I'm not entirely crazy about that choice of words, as it offends the Orthodox, but there's no question that some kind of term is needed to distinguish them from the "just ECs". (The Melkite patriarch once employed an alternate phrase "Orthodox with a plus" ... if I were him I would have said "Catholic with a plus" ... but for some strange reason, popes and patriarchs tend not to consult me before they say things.  Cheesy)

Finally there are those (an even smaller minority, I believe) who conflate Easternness with Orthodoxy. It seems to me that it is only this latter idea that is truly problematic.

It's a shame that they can't realize they are now free to return to their Mother Church without persecution.

God willing they will see the Light.

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

I sympathize with them, but, I cannot understand why they insist on hanging on to Rome, even now.

FWIW, I always say that I have no intention of leaving Catholicism for Orthodoxy ... but if somehow I were Orthodox, I certainly wouldn't leave Orthodoxy for Catholicism. (Of course, you may not like that answer, so maybe I should have just said "No, it's a shame that the WRO don't realize they can return to their Mother Church.  Grin)

They have. The Eastern Orthodox Church is the Mother Church of all Christians.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2014, 11:46:10 PM »

 

The churches of the so-called Eastern Rites came into existence as a result of political considerations. When the Dodecanese Islands came under Venetian rule, or Cyprus under Latin Franks, or when the Western Ukraine was conquered by Poland, for example, some provision had to be made for an Orthodox Christian population under a government in obedience to the Bishop of Rome. It was an accommodation, if you will, and probably preferable to mass forced conversions. The result is some 20-plus ER jurisdictions under Rome, with a complete code of canon law to themselves.

I don't believe any Orthodox Christian would say there's no difference, that the Eastern Rites are simply Orthodox under Rome. And I think it's more than just the standard list of theological objections. Even the words we have in common feel different in an Eastern Rite church.

The wound to Christ's church is deep and tragic--not only along lines of East and West. Within the Orthodox communities themselves we are not one. We give weight to the folly of our own reasonings instead of remembering what we share: a faith in the Risen Lord.



It was far from "a result of political considerations" or the fact that "some provisions had to be made for an Orthodox population."
The reality was the Latinization or eradication of the Orthodox believers. The "U" was created in Poland by two Jesuits and the plan was to Latinize the Orthodox of Poland and south-west Russia. With the help of the Polish King Synods at Brest(1595-96) was formed. Since then the forced conversion of Orthodox to the papists began, churches confiscated, Orthodox were murdered, tortured, or sent into exile.
As a result of the violent actions of Greek Catholics in the 80's and 90's Orthodox believers had been deprived of their churches and their rights are still trampled on.

It all began with Rome's self appointed papal authority. Prior to the events in July 1054, the Byzantine Churches in Southern Italy were forced to accept the Latin Rite. Pope Leo sent Cardinal Humber and legates to Constantinople to meet with Patriarch Cerularius. There were tone two meetings. During the first Cardinal Humbert and his legates acted very disrespectful towards the Patriarch and because of this the Patriarch refused the second meeting. Quite annoyed Cardinal Humbert and his legates entered Hagia Sophia, which was filled with worshippers, interrupted the Liturgy, entered the alter, made accusations against the Patriarch and placed the bull of excommunication on the alter table. Since then there has been a pattern.

1204-the 4th Crusade sacks Constantinople. Latins set up their own Patriarch, to compete with the Orthodox. This was to take place in the other Orthodox Patriarchates.
1211-Venetian Crusaders conquer Byzantine Crete.
1281-Pope Martin IV authorizes a crusade against the re-established Byzantine Empire in Constantinople.
1924-15- Austro-Hungarian Empire eradicates Orthodox believers. Many are sent to concentration camps. Talerhof and Terezin.
1938-Volhynia Western Ukraine, the Polish government oversaw the destruction of hundreds of Orthodox Churches and hundreds more were turned over to the Latin Rite. This was occurring all over the Carpathian Mountain regions in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Western Ukraine.
1943-44 Hundres of Orthodox priests eliminated and tortured by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, aided by "U" Metropolitan Josyf Slipyj. During this time was also the zenith of the papist persecution in Poland by Polish Catholics against the Orthodox faithful.
1940's- The Serbian Orthodox massacre.

History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.


Quote
There was no Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1924. The Austro-Hungarian empire ended with the First World War in 1918.

Fr. John W. Morris
I think he meant 1914-1915.
There are a certain number of Ukrainian extreme nationalists in the UGCC. And I don't see the point in the hierarchy of the UGCC and the UOC-KP coming to Washington, DC asking for American support against Russia. One of their heros is Stepan Bandera who is controversial to say the least. Obviously this is a great embarrassment to those of us who would like to see better relations between Catholics and Russian Orthodox. The extremists in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church are wrecking any chances of good relations with the Russian Orthodox. Please see:
For Metropolitan Hilarion, Ukraine crisis ended preparations for meeting between pope and patriarch
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/For-Metropolitan-Hilarion,-Ukraine-crisis-ended-preparations-for-meeting-between-pope-and-patriarch-30750.html
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« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2014, 12:12:31 AM »

Perhaps I misunderstood something. Did someone actually say that a Mormon could reach theosis? They are no Church, and certainly not Christian, and very far from Orthodox Christian, as also the Watchtower Society (JW's) are.
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« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2014, 06:51:44 PM »

Perhaps I misunderstood something. Did someone actually say that a Mormon could reach theosis? They are no Church, and certainly not Christian, and very far from Orthodox Christian, as also the Watchtower Society (JW's) are.

In the guidelines for the reception of converts of the Antiochian Archdiocese, Mormons are treated as non-Christins and must be received by Baptism.

Fr. John W. Morris.
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« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2014, 02:01:18 PM »

Metropolitan Hilarion's article is right on target.. Another instigator, other than Stephan Bandera, is the Ukrainian Catholic leader Sviatoslav Shevchuk, who has made comments likens "Russian propaganda to Goebbels". The Vatican Insider. From the Denver Catholic Register were messages to Russia. "We in Ukraine wish to be good neighbors. Do not attack us. We are not your enemies and we have no aggressive intentions." The good archbishop continues with a message to the Russian Orthodox Church, whose leaders had too often been tacit or explicit mouthpieces for the Putin government's propaganda and lies.

Who is calling the kettle black? 
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« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2014, 06:56:03 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

My objection is that they are Orthodox wannabees.

They originate from Orthodoxy.  Were forced to leave the Faith...yet, still retain some vestiges.  They look like us, smell like us, even sound like us a lot of the time....and yet....

It's a shame that they can't realize they are now free to return to their Mother Church without persecution.

God willing they will see the Light.

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

I sympathize with them, but, I cannot understand why they insist on hanging on to Rome, even now.


As my old Baptist and Pentecostal friends would say, Amen, Amen, and Amen.
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« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2014, 07:02:00 PM »

I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence.

Such exist. 

Quote
My question to you is: Why hasn't the Vatican not only spoken out against the violence committed towards the Orthodox but also, why hasn't the Vatican apologized for past atrocities? 

If they did apologise, would the Orthodox accept it?   

Probably not when it is within the RC's very nature to commit such acts, as has been shown throughout the last 1000 years of history. Perhaps when they rejoin the Church such a reconciliation may be possible.
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« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2014, 07:31:40 PM »


History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.


If what is happening in Ukraine is due to a crusade by the Ukrainian Eastern rite Catholics, how come a  Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) has  condemned the “criminal actions of the government that provoked the bloodshed on the streets and squares of the gold-domed Kyiv” ?
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55476/


I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence. My question to you is: Why hasn't the Vatican not only spoken out against the violence committed towards the Orthodox but also, why hasn't the Vatican apologized for past atrocities?  Let's be clear it wasn't the government that provoked the violence, it was those individuals that wanted nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with the West.

Well let me help you remember.  When the Emperors used violence to subdue Miaphysites or political factions or Latins, when the Czars used it to subdue Old Believers and Catholics, and when the Communists used it to liquidate the Greek Catholics, the Orthodox said nothing.

And St John Paul II did apologize for Catholic atrocities.

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« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2014, 09:19:23 PM »


History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.


If what is happening in Ukraine is due to a crusade by the Ukrainian Eastern rite Catholics, how come a  Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) has  condemned the “criminal actions of the government that provoked the bloodshed on the streets and squares of the gold-domed Kyiv” ?
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55476/


I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence. My question to you is: Why hasn't the Vatican not only spoken out against the violence committed towards the Orthodox but also, why hasn't the Vatican apologized for past atrocities?  Let's be clear it wasn't the government that provoked the violence, it was those individuals that wanted nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with the West.

Well let me help you remember.  When the Emperors used violence to subdue Miaphysites or political factions or Latins, when the Czars used it to subdue Old Believers and Catholics, and when the Communists used it to liquidate the Greek Catholics, the Orthodox said nothing.

And St John Paul II did apologize for Catholic atrocities.

Gratuitous political comment removed from post  -PtA
that last, political, point I can't comment on here (see the green dot?).

As for your former supreme pontiff's apologies for the Vatican's atrocities, as has been pointed out before, they were less than straight forward.

As for the Emperors, you all claim the Orthodox didn't exist then-we aren't supposed to have entered history before 1054.  But your point would have some sharpness were it not for Archbishop Hormisdas of Old Rome demanding that the Emperor use the sword to make the bishops put their seal on the Formula of Hormisdas  (the Empeor, however, did not follow through on that).

This isn't the "Politics" section, and so not the place to talk of "political factions."  That would include the Latins.

As for the liquidation of the Vatican's beachheads, many Orthodox (including those who had returned to Orthodoxy from the Vatican's yoke) approved-as they had been when the Poles, Hungarians and Habsburgs persecuted them for voicing their approval.

You got us on the Old Ritualists.
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« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2014, 09:41:15 PM »

you all claim the Orthodox didn't exist then-we aren't supposed to have entered history before 1054. 

What, you mean it's not common knowledge that Michael Cerularios invented Eastern Orthodoxy? Shocked

Kidding. But anyhow, it's funny that you say "you all claim ..." since the Catholics who use that polemic generally dislike me as well as you. (Why do you think I'm always on OCnet?)
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« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2014, 09:44:27 PM »

you all claim the Orthodox didn't exist then-we aren't supposed to have entered history before 1054. 

What, you mean it's not common knowledge that Michael Cerularios invented Eastern Orthodoxy? Shocked

Kidding. But anyhow, it's funny that you say "you all claim ..." since the Catholics who use that polemic generally dislike me as well as you. (Why do you think I'm always on OCnet?)

Well, one of my (somewhat liberal) Catholic graduate professors, in his foundations of Church history course, had a section titled "Council of Trullo - the Creation of Eastern Orthodoxy" or something along those lines. I'm sure he loves you guys though.
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« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2014, 10:21:21 PM »

you all claim the Orthodox didn't exist then-we aren't supposed to have entered history before 1054. 

What, you mean it's not common knowledge that Michael Cerularios invented Eastern Orthodoxy? Shocked

Kidding. But anyhow, it's funny that you say "you all claim ..." since the Catholics who use that polemic generally dislike me as well as you. (Why do you think I'm always on OCnet?)

Well, one of my (somewhat liberal) Catholic graduate professors, in his foundations of Church history course, had a section titled "Council of Trullo - the Creation of Eastern Orthodoxy" or something along those lines. I'm sure he loves you guys though.

Interesting/weird.

Re the last sentence, what "you guys" are we talking about exactly?
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« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2014, 10:26:04 PM »

Well, one of my (somewhat liberal) Catholic graduate professors, in his foundations of Church history course, had a section titled "Council of Trullo - the Creation of Eastern Orthodoxy" or something along those lines. I'm sure he loves you guys though.

Interesting/weird.

Re the last sentence, what "you guys" are we talking about exactly?

Eastern/Oriental Catholics. I can only imagine that he think EC's to be the bearers of true Eastern Christianity or something rather than what Trullo created.
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« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2014, 10:44:32 PM »

Well, one of my (somewhat liberal) Catholic graduate professors, in his foundations of Church history course, had a section titled "Council of Trullo - the Creation of Eastern Orthodoxy" or something along those lines. I'm sure he loves you guys though.

Interesting/weird.

Re the last sentence, what "you guys" are we talking about exactly?

Eastern/Oriental Catholics.

I figured that might be what you meant, but I wanted to check since we weren't talking about Eastern/Oriental Catholics.

Quote
I can only imagine that he think EC's to be the bearers of true Eastern Christianity or something rather than what Trullo created.

Yeah, I've known a lot of Catholics who think that way.
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« Reply #79 on: June 09, 2014, 10:58:14 PM »


I figured that might be what you meant, but I wanted to check since we weren't talking about Eastern/Oriental Catholics.

I thought you were, although I may well have been mistaken, talking about your being an Eastern Catholic when you said "since the Catholics who use that polemic generally dislike me as well as you. (Why do you think I'm always on OCnet?)."
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« Reply #80 on: June 09, 2014, 11:15:46 PM »

I figured that might be what you meant, but I wanted to check since we weren't talking about Eastern/Oriental Catholics.

I thought you were, although I may well have been mistaken, talking about your being an Eastern Catholic when you said "since the Catholics who use that polemic generally dislike me as well as you. (Why do you think I'm always on OCnet?)."

But I wasn't using myself as an example of an EC, but of a Catholic who doesn't use the polemic that "the Orthodox didn't exist ... before 1054".
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« Reply #81 on: June 09, 2014, 11:40:25 PM »

Aside from the usual Orthodox objections to Catholicism posted here...

Some Catholics are called to move from the West to the East. I think Metropolitan Andrew (Sheptytsky), the Polish count who became the head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, should be canonized by the Catholic Church and made their patron saint.

I don't feel called to do that but wouldn't rule out living in the rite again.

...a Catholic who doesn't use the polemic that "the Orthodox didn't exist ... before 1054".

Again, because Catholicism doesn't hate Orthodoxy as Catholicism understands it (granted, that's different from how the Orthodox understand themselves), I wouldn't say that either, nor would I say the Byzantine Catholics are the sole rightful owners of the Byzantine tradition.
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« Reply #82 on: June 10, 2014, 09:17:27 AM »



Again, because Catholicism doesn't hate Orthodoxy as Catholicism understands it (granted, that's different from how the Orthodox understand themselves), I wouldn't say that either, nor would I say the Byzantine Catholics are the sole rightful owners of the Byzantine tradition.

^ This
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« Reply #83 on: June 10, 2014, 10:42:35 AM »

Pope St. John Paul II often spoke of the"healing of memories" in connection with relations between eastern and western Christians. I believe, based on my life's experience,  that it is through the overcoming of memory and allowing the historical hurt to be healed that a committed Eastern Catholic who understands the heart and soul of the Christian east must conclude that now is not the time to be united with the Pope and all that such unity demands of one under the current formulations of the Catholic faith of Rome. 

Yes, the Unia allowed for the preservation of enough of an eastern core over the centuries which would been lost among the East Slavs had they been forced into the Latin rite, but while it was enough to allow a flicker of the east to remain, it was always to be subservient to the fickle winds at Rome. Hence the Archbishop Ireland mentality always prevails or is lurking about.

This is what led two modern, well educated and gifted Greek Catholic priests of the 19th and 20th centuries to leave the comfort and security of life as a Greek Catholic priest to the uncertain and then tumultuous world of North American Orthodox Christianity. They were of course Father Toth, now St. Alexis and Father Orestes Chornock, who became a Metropolitan in the Orthodox Church. Each led thousands of faithful clergy and laity eastward and home to Orthodoxy, establishing what are today the OCA and the ACROD. (And perhaps inadvertently scared Rome away from further attempts to suppress Greek Catholics in the diaspora.)

Perhaps someday it will be the will of God that all Christians who sincerely profess the Faith of the Apostles and the Fathers may be as one. However, in the present day, no matter how politely we interact and respect one another on the world stage or how intently we pray and dialogue with each other; east and west are not, and can not be one in the Chalice while remaining true to the ancient Faith that is Orthodox.

So that is why my family and I are what  we are as Orthodox Christians. (I still love and respect my Greek Catholic friends and family , but I pray that they return to the Faith of their fathers until the time is truly right to share that cup.)

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« Reply #84 on: June 11, 2014, 09:17:48 AM »


History is repeating itself today in the Ukraine. With both the nationalist tendencies of the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Ukrainian Separatists, they are con tuning their crusade against everything that is Russian and Orthodox. Blame Moscow for the past atrocities under communist rule.


If what is happening in Ukraine is due to a crusade by the Ukrainian Eastern rite Catholics, how come a  Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) has  condemned the “criminal actions of the government that provoked the bloodshed on the streets and squares of the gold-domed Kyiv” ?
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55476/


I cannot recall any situation when the Orthodox have not come out and spoken out against any violence. My question to you is: Why hasn't the Vatican not only spoken out against the violence committed towards the Orthodox but also, why hasn't the Vatican apologized for past atrocities?  Let's be clear it wasn't the government that provoked the violence, it was those individuals that wanted nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with the West.

Well let me help you remember.  When the Emperors used violence to subdue Miaphysites or political factions or Latins, when the Czars used it to subdue Old Believers and Catholics, and when the Communists used it to liquidate the Greek Catholics, the Orthodox said nothing.

And St John Paul II did apologize for Catholic atrocities.

Gratuitous political comment removed from post  -PtA


Subduing is quite different than actual violence against a certain group. The Russian Orthodox Church could not speak out concerning the orders from Stalin to liquidate the Eastern Rite Catholics. The Orthodox Church was a very weak puppet under communism. If you know anything about Stalin's rule, he purged or eliminated any opposition.

Political commentary removed from post  -PtA
 
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« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2014, 04:23:22 PM »

On a brighter note, here is a long video from this Sunday's Pentecost Hierarachical Divine Liturgy at the Greek Catholic Cathedral in Bratislava, Slovakia.  I was going to play a prank and not identify it as such by not mentioning what it was, but when you get to the part where 'Frank' is commemorated, the gig would have been up.  My point always has been that in the authentic Greek Catholic tradition most of the beauty and majesty and teaching of the east is well preserved and alive. Had that not been so, I will say as I have always held that neither the OCA, the ACROD nor the UOC-USA would exist here in North America as they do today. You would't be worrying about Hellenization as they would be the only players in town.

This Hierarchical liturgy, including full vesting of the Bishop prior to liturgy, is in both Slovak vernacular and Church Slavonic. (As an aside i note the choir director uses an electronic piano to give his pitches...oh well....)  To insult these folks, who are the brothers and sisters in heritage of many North American Orthodox Christians, rather than to pray for their return to the true Church and to respect them in the meanwhile is far superior to the passing along of stereotypes, false impressions and outright lies as many do in the Orthodox world.

If you were in Christ the Savior Cathedral in Johnstown, PA or St. Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Presov, Slovakia last Sunday by the way, you would have seen the same liturgy, only with Orthodox dyptychs.

http://www.rtvs.sk/televizia/program/detail/3149/svata-bozska-liturgia-na-sviatok-svatej-patdesiatnice/archiv?date=08.06.2014
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« Reply #86 on: June 12, 2014, 11:30:24 AM »

I should clarify...by coming home to the 'true church'  I was attempting to convey that the Eastern Catholic churches are, in the present circumstance, neither  'a witness to unity' or a 'bridge between east and west' (those concepts having, officially at least, been discarded by Rome) ,and more importantly to us Orthodox the Eastern Catholic Churches are NOT a full autonomous particular Church with the ability to control their own house  bur rather are the proverbial 'fish out of water' or a square peg being fitted into a round hole in colloquial terminology. The true home for the faithful who profess an eastern theology and eccesiology is today found only within the Orthodox faith where their underlying theology and praxis can flourish and  be nourished, replenished  and truly maintained.

Look, Rome holds us Orthodox out to be 'sister' churches, yet at the same time proclaiming that we remain 'defective' in our eccesiology. It should be no stretch that even for the more open-minded of us Orthodox (who neither espouse the 'branch' theory or express our 'fraternal' relationship with Rome in quite the ontological sense that Rome appears to convey) that we faithful Orthodox do believe Rome's  ecclesiology to be defective.

If we did not so believe that of each other, there would be no impediment to a common cup. But each of us view what we believe to be the truth. So be it.
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« Reply #87 on: June 12, 2014, 12:09:19 PM »

In the noble cause of defending your culture, KOVO/ACROD stepped into the line of fire of dueling one-true-church claims. That said, yes, we have one and I defend it.

Quote
The Eastern Catholic churches are, in the present circumstance, neither 'a witness to unity' or a 'bridge between east and west'.

No and yes. Not true because yes, they ought to be a working model of unity, symbolically bridging the schism, in which we often fall short. True in the sense that we aren't using them to try to break up or replace the Orthodox churches; rather, we want to bring them all in and preserve their cultures.

Quote
...the Eastern Catholic Churches are NOT a full autonomous particular Church with the ability to control their own house.

With byzcath.org and I imagine every Greek Catholic bishop or priest who's worked with your brother in ecumenical endeavors, I agree there's a ton of room for improvement in that regard.

Quote
...but rather are the proverbial 'fish out of water' or a square peg being fitted into a round hole in colloquial terminology. The true home for the faithful who profess an eastern theology and eccesiology is today found only within the Orthodox faith where their underlying theology and praxis can flourish and  be nourished, replenished  and truly maintained.

I and educated Catholics hold that the Orthodox are the original owners of the Byzantine patrimony and that Greek Catholics have been treated badly; we, including the aforementioned Greek Catholic ecumenical workers, are trying mightily to correct that mistreatment, as you know. That said, going from defending your culture to denying the full churchness of and grace in ours, in my view, makes an idol of that culture/rite. (Like your valid criticism of the cult of Russia.) That's what I think is wrong with Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #88 on: June 12, 2014, 12:13:25 PM »

I can't buy that the Western Church, essentially the same, is not part of the true church.

Someone, I forget who, quotes St. John Maximovitch in their signature "Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern".
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« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2014, 12:21:25 PM »

Quote
The Eastern Catholic churches are, in the present circumstance, neither 'a witness to unity' or a 'bridge between east and west'.

No and yes. Not true because yes, they ought to be a working model of unity, symbolically bridging the schism, in which we often fall short. True in the sense that we aren't using them to try to break up or replace the Orthodox churches; rather, we want to bring them all in and preserve their cultures.

Boy I get tired of hearing that. (I spend a lot of time on a coffee-themed Catholic discussion forum that will remain unnamed. Smiley) But, to be fair, you're probably not saying it in the triumphalistic way I've become accustomed to.  Cool
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« Reply #90 on: June 12, 2014, 12:23:44 PM »

I can't buy that the Western Church, essentially the same, is not part of the true church.

Someone, I forget who, quotes St. John Maximovitch in their signature "Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern".

Right, his line for the then-new Western Rite Orthodox experiment. The difference is we acknowledge the Orthodox as the home of their own patrimony and having real bishops, etc.; they set up a small imitation church (what the Orthodox accuse the Greek Catholics of being) and pretend we don't exist or take potshots at us (graceless, complete frauds, etc.). By the way, ROCOR's Western Rite is so byzantinized, indeed russified, they might as well switch them like they obviously want to.
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« Reply #91 on: June 12, 2014, 12:38:40 PM »

I can't buy that the Western Church, essentially the same, is not part of the true church.

Someone, I forget who, quotes St. John Maximovitch in their signature "Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern".

Right, his line for the then-new Western Rite Orthodox experiment. The difference is we acknowledge the Orthodox as the home of their own patrimony and having real bishops, etc.; they set up a small imitation church (what the Orthodox accuse the Greek Catholics of being) and pretend we don't exist or take potshots at us (graceless, complete frauds, etc.). By the way, ROCOR's Western Rite is so byzantinized, indeed russified, they might as well switch them like they obviously want to.

I'm pretty careful to avoid having either an overly-high or overly-low opinion of them. They are definitely Byzantinized -- and I find it troubling that the Orthodox, generally, seem to have extremely little regret over that fact -- but at the same time I firmly support e.g. http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/05/western-rite-is-not-reverse-uniatism.html
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« Reply #92 on: June 12, 2014, 12:41:39 PM »

Peter and Fogey know full well that there is a vast division within Orthodoxy regarding the issue of 'gracelessness' and the Roman Church. and you both know where I and others - more in the real world than those who post online - stand.

Rome regards us as 'schismatics.' Orthodox either regard Rome in the same manner, while some/many regard Rome as 'heretical.'

My maternal grandfather and my father were both formally 'excommunicated' in writing by the Congregation for the Eastern Churches. I doubt many others here can say the same, so I will not be accused of 'squishiness' by either Roman or Orthodox apologists.

In either case, neither regards the other in any way as 'complete.' Is that so hard to fathom?
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« Reply #93 on: June 12, 2014, 01:17:27 PM »

Peter and Fogey know full well that there is a vast division within Orthodoxy regarding the issue of 'gracelessness' and the Roman Church. and you both know where I and others - more in the real world than those who post online - stand.

Rome regards us as 'schismatics.' Orthodox either regard Rome in the same manner, while some/many regard Rome as 'heretical.'

My maternal grandfather and my father were both formally 'excommunicated' in writing by the Congregation for the Eastern Churches. I doubt many others here can say the same, so I will not be accused of 'squishiness' by either Roman or Orthodox apologists.

In either case, neither regards the other in any way as 'complete.' Is that so hard to fathom?

For some people it is, in my experience.
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« Reply #94 on: June 13, 2014, 03:16:42 AM »

The tangent on Ukrainian politics has been moved to Politics.

If you don't have access to the private Politics board and would like to follow the discussion, please send Fr. George a private message requesting access.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=58985.0
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« Reply #95 on: June 13, 2014, 06:17:50 AM »

Peter and Fogey know full well that there is a vast division within Orthodoxy regarding the issue of 'gracelessness' and the Roman Church. and you both know where I and others - more in the real world than those who post online - stand.

Right. You and your jurisdiction mirror us regarding the other church. Because to deny us would be to deny yourselves.

Rome regards us as 'schismatics.' Orthodox either regard Rome in the same manner or some/many regard Rome as 'heretical.'

Correct with the addition that those born into schism aren't personally guilty of schism so at our nicest we don't call born Orthodox schismatics.

My maternal grandfather and my father were both formally 'excommunicated' in writing by the Congregation for the Eastern Churches. I doubt many others here can say the same, so I will not be accused of 'squishiness' by either Roman or Orthodox apologists.

Cry. That was for disobedience; your side really had no objection to our teachings at the time. That was adopted later to rationalize the schism. It never should have happened; if only our local Roman Riters hadn't been boneheads about the real issue. As I said, we let our own people down, so I understand your side still being mad at the church. But like you said, the healing of memories.

In either case, neither regards the other in any way as 'complete.' Is that so hard to fathom?

No. But my point remains. It's not really about our teachings; it's about your culture, and while that culture is worth defending, the church has the authority to declare which rule on clerical marriage to follow in Western countries. That said, I agree the ruling for America was a mistake, as do byzcath.org and every Greek Catholic your brother works with. We're trying to more than meet you halfway; you've been honest about your jurisdiction's origins as long as I've known you so I think you can meet us halfway (and I don't believe in a squishy branch theory either).
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« Reply #96 on: June 13, 2014, 06:35:14 AM »

I only met a Melkite (well, actually an RC that was going to change rites) once that came to my parish and stayed for coffee hour.  He was all about being "orthodox in communion with Rome" and telling the few of us that were there, including our Deacon, that there was no difference and we should all have communion together.  I'm sure he's not wholly representative of all Melkites and other eastern Catholics, but I wasn't going to bother to test the waters.

There's a true sense and untrue one to his position. We believe there's really no difference: you are estranged Catholics, so come back. He's wrong if like the few "Orthodox in Communion with Rome"* online (they do seem a nearlly wholly convert - Roman Riter changing rites - and online phenomenon) he's saying intercommunion as things are (you don't have to come back) makes sense. There are exceptions, which in a way bear witness to our teaching that our sacraments have grace so sacramentally we're still the same church. In Syria the Melkites and Orthodox are in intercommunion, the only division being the clergy don't concelebrate.

The Slavic born Byzantine Catholics I knew 20 years ago wanted nothing to do with the Orthodox, because of the schisms in America and the Communists in the old country. Understandable but not quite right either.

I think that misunderstanding right after Vatican II made lots of people then think all the "high" churches - Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran - would get back together soon.

*Not to be confused with the kind of Byzantine Catholic who tries to do what Rome says and so is liturgically just like the Orthodox and expresses Catholic theology in Byzantine terms.
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« Reply #97 on: June 13, 2014, 11:25:13 AM »

Peter and Fogey know full well that there is a vast division within Orthodoxy regarding the issue of 'gracelessness' and the Roman Church. and you both know where I and others - more in the real world than those who post online - stand.

Right. You and your jurisdiction mirror us regarding the other church. Because to deny us would be to deny yourselves.

Rome regards us as 'schismatics.' Orthodox either regard Rome in the same manner or some/many regard Rome as 'heretical.'

Correct with the addition that those born into schism aren't personally guilty of schism so at our nicest we don't call born Orthodox schismatics.

My maternal grandfather and my father were both formally 'excommunicated' in writing by the Congregation for the Eastern Churches. I doubt many others here can say the same, so I will not be accused of 'squishiness' by either Roman or Orthodox apologists.

Cry. That was for disobedience; your side really had no objection to our teachings at the time. That was adopted later to rationalize the schism. It never should have happened; if only our local Roman Riters hadn't been boneheads about the real issue. As I said, we let our own people down, so I understand your side still being mad at the church. But like you said, the healing of memories.

In either case, neither regards the other in any way as 'complete.' Is that so hard to fathom?

No. But my point remains. It's not really about our teachings; it's about your culture, and while that culture is worth defending, the church has the authority to declare which rule on clerical marriage to follow in Western countries. That said, I agree the ruling for America was a mistake, as do byzcath.org and every Greek Catholic your brother works with. We're trying to more than meet you halfway; you've been honest about your jurisdiction's origins as long as I've known you so I think you can meet us halfway (and I don't believe in a squishy branch theory either).

I won't repost it here, but I think what I said on another thread, about a certain Catholic territory-argument that Orthodox don't necessarily buy, is closely related to the highlighted portion.
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« Reply #98 on: June 13, 2014, 11:36:26 AM »

I only met a Melkite (well, actually an RC that was going to change rites) once that came to my parish and stayed for coffee hour.  He was all about being "orthodox in communion with Rome" and telling the few of us that were there, including our Deacon, that there was no difference and we should all have communion together.  I'm sure he's not wholly representative of all Melkites and other eastern Catholics, but I wasn't going to bother to test the waters.

There's a true sense and untrue one to his position. We believe there's really no difference: you are estranged Catholics, so come back.
And you are wrong in these beliefs. Hence the big difference.

He's wrong if like the few "Orthodox in Communion with Rome"* online (they do seem a nearlly wholly convert - Roman Riter changing rites - and online phenomenon) he's saying intercommunion as things are (you don't have to come back) makes sense. There are exceptions, which in a way bear witness to our teaching that our sacraments have grace so sacramentally we're still the same church. In Syria the Melkites and Orthodox are in intercommunion, the only division being the clergy don't concelebrate.
That is predicated on the Levantines doubts about the Melkites communion with the Vatican-doubts that we don't have, for instance, about the Maronites.
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« Reply #99 on: June 13, 2014, 12:34:53 PM »

Peter, do you mean that the Orthodox say no jurisdiction or bishop can change the universal Orthodox custom on clerical marriage, even though it's not doctrine? I like that approach to customs; celibacy's not a hill I'd die on as I like to say. But we hold the church can make those rules.

ialmisry, of course I know that's what Orthodoxy believes, so it's tactless or ignorant for one of us to breeze into one of your churches and say let's have intercommunion right now. That said, a perennial story in online Catholic/Orthodox fora is for a Catholic to come bounding in like a playful puppy, writing how much he loves Orthodox liturgy, theology, icons, etc., and how much we have in common, only to have the resident Orthodox kick him in the teeth ("Graceless heretic!" etc.). Granted, Catholics are allowed to believe that non-Catholics are going to hell (thank God we don't have to, and after all, we're allowed to venerate your post-schism saints, so there you go), but the difference is striking. Your churchmen hate the Catholic Church. We don't hate the Orthodox churches.

Loving "Byzantium" is Catholic. (Granted, a lot of us haven't lived up to that, but it's our teaching.) The church includes Byzantium.

The Orthodox seem rather to worship Byzantium. The church IS Byzantium; everything else is an unknown: could be schismatic, could be graceless heretics, etc. Like I said, the culture's great, but don't make an idol of it.

The Melkites have been around since the 1700s; I imagine everybody in Syria knows the Melkites are Catholics. Syrian Byzantine Christian families identify as Melkite or Orthodox.
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« Reply #100 on: June 13, 2014, 12:50:38 PM »

Your churchmen hate the Catholic Church. We don't hate the Orthodox churches.

That's ridiculous. 
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« Reply #101 on: June 13, 2014, 01:03:11 PM »

Your churchmen hate the Catholic Church. We don't hate the Orthodox churches.

That's ridiculous. 

I have to agree with you, Mor.
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« Reply #102 on: June 13, 2014, 01:32:16 PM »

Peter, do you mean that the Orthodox say no jurisdiction or bishop can change the universal Orthodox custom on clerical marriage, even though it's not doctrine? I like that approach to customs; celibacy's not a hill I'd die on as I like to say. But we hold the church can make those rules.

No. (At least that isn't what I was referring to. I'll let Orthodox say whether they believe that or not.)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,58824.msg1139074.html#msg1139074
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« Reply #103 on: June 13, 2014, 01:46:35 PM »

Your churchmen hate the Catholic Church. We don't hate the Orthodox churches.

That's ridiculous. 

Agreed...and if you (Fogey, not Mor)  posted that over on ByzCath you would get in trouble with their mods!
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« Reply #104 on: June 13, 2014, 02:05:09 PM »

Gotcha, Peter. It's just a rule, so having two rules isn't a big deal to the church. Of course, if you're in love and you might have a vocation, it is a huge deal!

ByzCath is rather like the aspiring Melkite in hecma925's story and is very "OicwR" ("Orthodox in Communion with Rome"*, too cool in one's mind for either church: Catholic but thumbing one's nose at Rome/snotty view of conservative Catholics, and agreeing with the Orthodox on nearly everything except the one-true-church claim so one doesn't join). Take what you read there with two grains of salt.

*Of course Greek Catholics who are восточный (Eastern-minded) and DO follow the magisterium are, in my view, "Orthodox in communion with Rome" in a true sense, but you know what I mean.
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« Reply #105 on: June 13, 2014, 02:08:25 PM »

Peter, do you mean that the Orthodox say no jurisdiction or bishop can change the universal Orthodox custom on clerical marriage, even though it's not doctrine? I like that approach to customs; celibacy's not a hill I'd die on as I like to say. But we hold the church can make those rules.

ialmisry, of course I know that's what Orthodoxy believes, so it's tactless or ignorant for one of us to breeze into one of your churches and say let's have intercommunion right now. That said, a perennial story in online Catholic/Orthodox fora is for a Catholic to come bounding in like a playful puppy, writing how much he loves Orthodox liturgy, theology, icons, etc., and how much we have in common, only to have the resident Orthodox kick him in the teeth ("Graceless heretic!" etc.). Granted, Catholics are allowed to believe that non-Catholics are going to hell (thank God we don't have to, and after all, we're allowed to venerate your post-schism saints, so there you go), but the difference is striking. Your churchmen hate the Catholic Church. We don't hate the Orthodox churches.

Loving "Byzantium" is Catholic. (Granted, a lot of us haven't lived up to that, but it's our teaching.) The church includes Byzantium.

The Orthodox seem rather to worship Byzantium. The church IS Byzantium; everything else is an unknown: could be schismatic, could be graceless heretics, etc. Like I said, the culture's great, but don't make an idol of it.

The Melkites have been around since the 1700s; I imagine everybody in Syria knows the Melkites are Catholics. Syrian Byzantine Christian families identify as Melkite or Orthodox.
not really-for one thing, Antioch wouldn't mind a pox on the houses of both Romes.
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« Reply #106 on: June 13, 2014, 02:19:11 PM »

Never heard that before about Antioch. So even though they're now Byzantine Rite (they weren't to begin with?), they're like the Copts in that they don't like Rome OR the Greeks? So maybe they've long been friendly with the Melkites to spite Constantinople ("the enemy of my enemy is my friend"), rather like the Kyiv Patriarchate cozying up to the Ukrainian Catholics to take a swipe at Moscow?
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« Reply #107 on: June 13, 2014, 02:32:37 PM »

Gotcha, Peter. It's just a rule, so having two rules isn't a big deal to the church. Of course, if you're in love and you might have a vocation, it is a huge deal!

ByzCath is rather like the aspiring Melkite in hecma925's story and is very "OicwR" ("Orthodox in Communion with Rome"*, too cool in one's mind for either church: Catholic but thumbing one's nose at Rome/snotty view of conservative Catholics, and agreeing with the Orthodox on nearly everything except the one-true-church claim so one doesn't join). Take what you read there with two grains of salt.

*Of course Greek Catholics who are восточный (Eastern-minded) and DO follow the magisterium are, in my view, "Orthodox in communion with Rome" in a true sense, but you know what I mean.

Yes, I know what you mean, but the phrase "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" is a suspicious one in any case. ( I admit to using it at times, but even then I compromise by putting it in quotation marks to make it clear that I'm not actually claiming to be Orthodox.) However fine and dandy it may have originally been, nowadays -- at least on the Internet -- it seems to be most commonly used to silence or undermine the "Orthodox not in communion with Rome".
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« Reply #108 on: June 13, 2014, 02:42:56 PM »

It's come to mean someone who's really neither Catholic nor Orthodox but is a church unto himself with Byzantine trappings.
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« Reply #109 on: June 13, 2014, 05:44:15 PM »

Your churchmen hate the Catholic Church. We don't hate the Orthodox churches.

That's ridiculous.  

+1

And if the Roman Catholic Church had such a higher view of the Orthodox Churches than the reverse, it wouldn't demonstrate it by corralling its Eastern Catholic brethren into reservations under its Congregation of Indian Affairs Oriental Churches.
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« Reply #110 on: June 13, 2014, 06:26:40 PM »

It's come to mean someone who's really neither Catholic nor Orthodox but is a church unto himself with Byzantine trappings.

I can -- perhaps -- understand where you're coming from ...
People who describe themselves as "Orthodox in communion with Rome" often present themselves as neutral or in-between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. A natural response to that is "If you're in between, then you're neither Catholic nor Orthodox." but I think it's even more important to question the in-between-ness.
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« Reply #111 on: June 13, 2014, 06:39:39 PM »

Your churchmen hate the Catholic Church. We don't hate the Orthodox churches.

That's ridiculous.  

+1

And if the Roman Catholic Church had such a higher view of the Orthodox Churches than the reverse, it wouldn't demonstrate it by corralling its Eastern Catholic brethren into reservations under its Congregation of Indian Affairs Oriental Churches.

These are all conveniences for Rome's benefit.  When the Eastern Catholic Churches do something that annoys the Orthodox and the Orthodox complain through the proper channels, the Vatican can put on a pouty face and agree with the Orthodox that they shouldn't have done it and promise that they will give the appropriate people a stern talking to with the hope that things will improve, but with no guarantees since "they're an independent Church in communion with Rome".  When the Eastern Catholic Churches need to fall in line, Rome has no problem forgetting that "independent Church" stuff, flexing its muscles, extending its foot, and requiring a kiss of the slipper. 

That's just part of what makes Young Fogey's comment ridiculous.  It's not that the Orthodox bishops hate the Catholic Church but the Catholics don't hate the Orthodox Church.  The Catholics love whomever they want whenever they want, and they also hate whomever they want whenever they want, starting in their own home and with their own children.  And then they try to teach us about "love".  We know all too well about their "love". 
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« Reply #112 on: June 13, 2014, 07:07:46 PM »

Your churchmen hate the Catholic Church. We don't hate the Orthodox churches.

That's ridiculous.  

+1

And if the Roman Catholic Church had such a higher view of the Orthodox Churches than the reverse, it wouldn't demonstrate it by corralling its Eastern Catholic brethren into reservations under its Congregation of Indian Affairs Oriental Churches.

Being Catholic doesn't mean you have to think the Greek Catholic churches are perfect. As podkarpatska can tell you, we've often fallen short in the treatment of our own people. That said, I wouldn't describe the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the far western Ukraine (most Byzantine Catholics) the Melkite Church in Syria, or, moving beyond Byzantium, the Chaldean Church in Iraq, the country's No. 1 church, bigger than the Nestorians they came from, as Indian reservations.
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« Reply #113 on: June 13, 2014, 07:13:20 PM »

Being Catholic doesn't mean you have to think the Greek Catholic churches are perfect. As podkarpatska can tell you, we've often fallen short in the treatment of our own people. That said, I wouldn't describe the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the far western Ukraine (most Byzantine Catholics) the Melkite Church in Syria, or, moving beyond Byzantium, the Chaldean Church in Iraq, the country's No. 1 church, bigger than the Nestorians they came from, as Indian reservations.

When their own Synods can be vetoed at will by a Latin-dominated and Latin-run committee, then they're reservations even on their "own turf:"

I can't answer thoroughly, but here's an enlightening quote from Archbishop Zoghby's 1992 A Voice from the Byzantine East:

Quote
Though Vatican II was over years ago, we united Easterners find ourselves exactly where we were before the Council began. We are still governed by what is in effect a super-patriarchate called "the Congregation for the Eastern Churches." All through the conciliar texts we find ourselves being led back, by sly maneuvering and skillful plays on words, to that Eastern pseudo-canon law created and unjustly imposed upon us by that same Curial Congregation. And that very same Roman congregation continues to make itself the sole judge of many things in our Churches including the election of our bishops. Also, it denies our own Greek-Melkite Patriarch and his Synod complete jurisdiction over the emigrant faithful who today constitute the majority of the whole Melkite population. It merely superimposes its veto on any decision emanating from our patriarchal Synod and our will it renders null and void. In fact, nothing important can be decided by us without the agreement of this Curial Congregation!

[...] Wishing to honor the Eastern Catholic Patriarchs, the Romans have made them ex officio members of the Congregation for the Eastern Churches, dropping them into that body which has never had as much as one Eastern member. This is the Congregation that runs the Eastern Churches and only now has it allowed any Easterners even to penetrate its ranks! Since our Patriarchs are now full-fledged members of this Curial dicastery we are expected to be grateful. Yet it takes no genius to uncover the real truth and to see that the vast majority of its members are foreigners - strangers to all that we hold dear - and are from the Latin Church! When this Congregation holds a plenary session to decide a matter pertaining exclusively to one or another Eastern Catholic Patriarchate, it acts as though it were the legally constituted patriarchal Synod, and that the Patriarch responsible for this Patriarchate did not exist. Certainly, the respective Eastern Patriarch is now permitted to cast his ballot as a member of the Eastern Congregation but this is of little avail. What value is his solitary vote against those of some thirty or forty Latin prelates?
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« Reply #114 on: June 13, 2014, 07:59:30 PM »

The Western Rite Orthodox don't have countries where they're the majority nor synods of their own.
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« Reply #115 on: June 13, 2014, 08:49:16 PM »

The Western Rite Orthodox don't have countries where they're the majority nor synods of their own.

Apples and (not even ) oranges.

Unlike the Greek Catholics who were functioning as Orthodox eparchial units with canonical bishops, priests and laity when they submitted to Rome in the 16th century, WRO is a nascent movement developed by two Orthodox jurisdictions in the 20th century. There was no migration of Roman Catholics with bishops, priests and laity "en masse" becoming WRO Orthodox bringing with them rubrics, liturgies and ecclesiastical structure and representations from the Orthodox regarding self rule  and autonomy.
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« Reply #116 on: June 13, 2014, 09:05:14 PM »

You might agree with me that partial unions are an accident, not the intent at least now. That's the truth behind things like Balamand. That said, we've got dueling true-church claims and the minority-rite churches have the right to be in peace (because of those respective claims). A reason we agree what the Communists did to your cousins was wrong (besides our true-church claim - not just liberal human-rights stuff). Educated Catholics don't think the Greek Catholics are permanent substitutes for the Orthodox. Orthodox, when they know WRO exists, make like they're the replacement for Catholics, ridiculous on the face of it. Reminds me of the Old Catholics in Holland and Germany in the late 1800s. They thought they were the true continuation of the Catholic Church and ended up just like the Episcopalians with women priests (and inadvertently spawning lots of little "independent Catholic" make-believe churches). That said, WRO is almost a good fit for conservative former Episcopalians who don't accept the Pope.
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« Reply #117 on: June 13, 2014, 09:12:19 PM »

The Western Rite Orthodox don't have countries where they're the majority nor synods of their own.

I've haven't hesitated to criticize Orthodoxy over WRO issues; but we do need to take into consideration varying circumstances. Consider: would you expect the tiny Bulgarian Catholic Church to behave just like the UGCC?
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« Reply #118 on: June 13, 2014, 09:16:23 PM »

Bulgaria's story's interesting here. Sort of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." When they were fighting the Turks for independence, as Orthodox they were under Constantinople as part of the empire, so a number of their churchmen became Catholic to get their own church, not under the empire. Then when the Bulgarian Orthodox broke away (C'ople declared them schismatic until 1946), most of the Bulgarian Catholics went back to the Orthodox. So the Bulgarian Catholic Church's a vestigial thing, probably latinized.
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« Reply #119 on: June 13, 2014, 09:21:43 PM »

Being Catholic doesn't mean you have to think the Greek Catholic churches are perfect. As podkarpatska can tell you, we've often fallen short in the treatment of our own people. That said, I wouldn't describe the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the far western Ukraine (most Byzantine Catholics) the Melkite Church in Syria, or, moving beyond Byzantium, the Chaldean Church in Iraq, the country's No. 1 church, bigger than the Nestorians they came from, as Indian reservations.

When their own Synods can be vetoed at will by a Latin-dominated and Latin-run committee, then they're reservations even on their "own turf:"

I can't answer thoroughly, but here's an enlightening quote from Archbishop Zoghby's 1992 A Voice from the Byzantine East:

Quote
Though Vatican II was over years ago, we united Easterners find ourselves exactly where we were before the Council began. We are still governed by what is in effect a super-patriarchate called "the Congregation for the Eastern Churches." All through the conciliar texts we find ourselves being led back, by sly maneuvering and skillful plays on words, to that Eastern pseudo-canon law created and unjustly imposed upon us by that same Curial Congregation. And that very same Roman congregation continues to make itself the sole judge of many things in our Churches including the election of our bishops. Also, it denies our own Greek-Melkite Patriarch and his Synod complete jurisdiction over the emigrant faithful who today constitute the majority of the whole Melkite population. It merely superimposes its veto on any decision emanating from our patriarchal Synod and our will it renders null and void. In fact, nothing important can be decided by us without the agreement of this Curial Congregation!

[...] Wishing to honor the Eastern Catholic Patriarchs, the Romans have made them ex officio members of the Congregation for the Eastern Churches, dropping them into that body which has never had as much as one Eastern member. This is the Congregation that runs the Eastern Churches and only now has it allowed any Easterners even to penetrate its ranks! Since our Patriarchs are now full-fledged members of this Curial dicastery we are expected to be grateful. Yet it takes no genius to uncover the real truth and to see that the vast majority of its members are foreigners - strangers to all that we hold dear - and are from the Latin Church! When this Congregation holds a plenary session to decide a matter pertaining exclusively to one or another Eastern Catholic Patriarchate, it acts as though it were the legally constituted patriarchal Synod, and that the Patriarch responsible for this Patriarchate did not exist. Certainly, the respective Eastern Patriarch is now permitted to cast his ballot as a member of the Eastern Congregation but this is of little avail. What value is his solitary vote against those of some thirty or forty Latin prelates?

I remember that one.  Ouch, Abp. Zoghby gives em' the ol' one-two. 
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« Reply #120 on: June 13, 2014, 09:23:26 PM »

The Western Rite Orthodox don't have countries where they're the majority nor synods of their own.

I've haven't hesitated to criticize Orthodoxy over WRO issues; but we do need to take into consideration varying circumstances. Consider: would you expect the tiny Bulgarian Catholic Church to behave just like the UGCC?

When have they behaved like that? 
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« Reply #121 on: June 13, 2014, 09:33:54 PM »

The Western Rite Orthodox don't have countries where they're the majority nor synods of their own.

And this, despite ignoring that they're not analogous bodies, justifies the complete subjugation of the Eastern Catholic Churches, Synod and all?

You might agree with me that partial unions are an accident, not the intent at least now. That's the truth behind things like Balamand. That said, we've got dueling true-church claims and the minority-rite churches have the right to be in peace (because of those respective claims). A reason we agree what the Communists did to your cousins was wrong (besides our true-church claim - not just liberal human-rights stuff). Educated Catholics don't think the Greek Catholics are permanent substitutes for the Orthodox. Orthodox, when they know WRO exists, make like they're the replacement for Catholics, ridiculous on the face of it. Reminds me of the Old Catholics in Holland and Germany in the late 1800s. They thought they were the true continuation of the Catholic Church and ended up just like the Episcopalians with women priests (and inadvertently spawning lots of little "independent Catholic" make-believe churches). That said, WRO is almost a good fit for conservative former Episcopalians who don't accept the Pope.

And what does any of this have to do with pod's point that they're not analogous bodies?
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« Reply #122 on: June 13, 2014, 09:42:23 PM »

You might agree with me that partial unions are an accident, not the intent at least now. That's the truth behind things like Balamand. That said, we've got dueling true-church claims and the minority-rite churches have the right to be in peace (because of those respective claims). A reason we agree what the Communists did to your cousins was wrong (besides our true-church claim - not just liberal human-rights stuff). Educated Catholics don't think the Greek Catholics are permanent substitutes for the Orthodox. Orthodox, when they know WRO exists, make like they're the replacement for Catholics, ridiculous on the face of it. Reminds me of the Old Catholics in Holland and Germany in the late 1800s. They thought they were the true continuation of the Catholic Church and ended up just like the Episcopalians with women priests (and inadvertently spawning lots of little "independent Catholic" make-believe churches). That said, WRO is almost a good fit for conservative former Episcopalians who don't accept the Pope.

Hogwash.  That is an absurd assertion. Most Orthodox either don't know WRO exists and, in my experience, a majority of those who do, don't take it particularly seriously.
 
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« Reply #123 on: June 13, 2014, 09:55:19 PM »

Quote
And this, despite ignoring that they're not analogous bodies, justifies the complete subjugation of the Eastern Catholic Churches, Synod and all?

Not at all. As I wrote earlier, we have lots of room for improvement.

Quote
Hogwash.  That is an absurd assertion. Most Orthodox either don't know WRO exists and, in my experience, a majority of those who do, don't take it particularly seriously.

Actually we agree. I think those who do know it exists don't take it particularly seriously probably not out of any regard for us but because of anti-Westernism.

The church is at its best when it is the Church Local, run by custom. Simpatico with Orthodoxy. The thing is, your culture, while a good thing, is not co-terminous with the church. Maybe believing or at least acting like it is, is why Orthodoxy hits a wall in America with the third generation after the immigrants; the culture's gone so they leave. In droves. It also relates to your objection to the cult of Russia. In the Russian myth, their culture IS the church.
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« Reply #124 on: June 13, 2014, 10:08:42 PM »

Quote
Hogwash.  That is an absurd assertion. Most Orthodox either don't know WRO exists and, in my experience, a majority of those who do, don't take it particularly seriously.

Actually we agree. I think those who do know it exists don't take it particularly seriously probably not out of any regard for us but because of anti-Westernism.

Agreed, but your original statement, that

Orthodox, when they know WRO exists, make like they're the replacement for Catholics, 

is still "hogwash". As a matter of fact, I think it is far more common for Catholics to speak of ECism as a replacement for Orthodoxy  Roll Eyes (that is, in fact, the way "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is usually used on the Catholic forum that I have spent the most time on).
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« Reply #125 on: June 13, 2014, 10:10:54 PM »

Quote
Hogwash.  That is an absurd assertion. Most Orthodox either don't know WRO exists and, in my experience, a majority of those who do, don't take it particularly seriously.

Actually we agree. I think those who do know it exists don't take it particularly seriously probably not out of any regard for us but because of anti-Westernism.

Agreed, but your original statement, that

Orthodox, when they know WRO exists, make like they're the replacement for Catholics,  

is still "hogwash". As a matter of fact, I think it is far more common for Catholics to speak of ECism as a replacement for Orthodoxy  Roll Eyes (that is, in fact, the way "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is usually used on the Catholic forum that I have spent the most time on).

I agree that's ****. Sounds like what I've heard about CAF. I never go there.

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« Reply #126 on: June 13, 2014, 10:16:56 PM »

Sounds like what I've heard about CAF. I never go there.

More of a de-caf guy?
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« Reply #127 on: June 13, 2014, 10:18:10 PM »

The Western Rite Orthodox don't have countries where they're the majority nor synods of their own.

I've haven't hesitated to criticize Orthodoxy over WRO issues; but we do need to take into consideration varying circumstances. Consider: would you expect the tiny Bulgarian Catholic Church to behave just like the UGCC?

When have they behaved like that? 

I don't entirely understand the question, but basically my point was that one cannot expect the Bulgarian Catholic Church, the Macedonian Catholic Church, the Albanian Catholic Church, etc to be just like the UGCC, since the circumstances are very different. Likewise I think Serge's comparison with the WRO was a bit unfair -- not that I'm proposing a WRO-EO double standard, but that the circumstances are different. (Although if someone made a comparison between, say, WRO and the Albanian Catholic Church, I wouldn't find said comparison so objectionable ... although I don't think I've ever heard that comparison anyhow.)
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« Reply #128 on: June 13, 2014, 10:41:53 PM »

The Western Rite Orthodox don't have countries where they're the majority nor synods of their own.

I've haven't hesitated to criticize Orthodoxy over WRO issues; but we do need to take into consideration varying circumstances. Consider: would you expect the tiny Bulgarian Catholic Church to behave just like the UGCC?

When have they behaved like that? 

I don't entirely understand the question, but basically my point was that one cannot expect the Bulgarian Catholic Church, the Macedonian Catholic Church, the Albanian Catholic Church, etc to be just like the UGCC, since the circumstances are very different. Likewise I think Serge's comparison with the WRO was a bit unfair -- not that I'm proposing a WRO-EO double standard, but that the circumstances are different. (Although if someone made a comparison between, say, WRO and the Albanian Catholic Church, I wouldn't find said comparison so objectionable ... although I don't think I've ever heard that comparison anyhow.)

Understood, and I appreciate your candor.  I don't know any WRO people who feel that they are a replacement for Rome, as young fogey suggests.  Most that I know are simply people who are doctrinally in line with Orthodoxy and want to practice western rites approved by the Orthodox Church because it is closer to their hearts.  The Synods of 1838, 1848, and 1895 of Constantinople all approved of the usage of the Roman Rite within the Orthodox Church (among others, including Mozarabitic and Gallican), and the Moscow Synod approved of the usage of the modified Anglican rite. 

The reason why some Orthodox patriarchates are against western rites is because beating the drum against ErCs is without any hint of a double standard if we didn't have "western rite" practice at all.   And you are correct, the WRO is not comparable to the UGCC or the Melkites, but rather more to the Bulgarians or Albanian ErCs.   
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« Reply #129 on: June 13, 2014, 10:53:10 PM »

Well thank you.

The reason why some Orthodox patriarchates are against western rites is because beating the drum against ErCs is without any hint of a double standard if we didn't have "western rite" practice at all.   

Indeed one of the things that bother me most is that many Orthodox appear to reject anything that's even slightly similar to uniatism ... a kind of guilt-by-association as it were.
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« Reply #130 on: June 13, 2014, 10:56:48 PM »

Well thank you.

The reason why some Orthodox patriarchates are against western rites is because beating the drum against ErCs is without any hint of a double standard if we didn't have "western rite" practice at all.   

Indeed one of the things that bother me most is that many Orthodox appear to reject anything that's even slightly similar to uniatism ... a kind of guilt-by-association as it were.

Witnessing in a backhanded way to something I believe, that partial unions aren't the goal. Our hosts' hardliners have a point that, because of our dueling true-church claims, ecumenism is zero-sum. One side would join the other. The thing is making sure it wouldn't be like those mergers where one brand eventually goes away. That's not what we teach about the East.
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« Reply #131 on: June 13, 2014, 11:35:09 PM »

Our hosts' hardliners have a point that, because of our dueling true-church claims, ecumenism is zero-sum. One side would join the other. The thing is making sure it wouldn't be like those mergers where one brand eventually goes away. That's not what we teach about the East.

Yes, in the sense that you clearly mean. But, of course, in another sense the big problem was precisely that some (Catholics anyhow) saw it as zero-sum, thus justifying proselytism/uniatism.
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« Reply #132 on: June 14, 2014, 12:23:44 AM »

Well thank you.

The reason why some Orthodox patriarchates are against western rites is because beating the drum against ErCs is without any hint of a double standard if we didn't have "western rite" practice at all.  

Indeed one of the things that bother me most is that many Orthodox appear to reject anything that's even slightly similar to uniatism ... a kind of guilt-by-association as it were.

Witnessing in a backhanded way to something I believe, that partial unions aren't the goal. Our hosts' hardliners have a point that, because of our dueling true-church claims, ecumenism is zero-sum. One side would join the other. The thing is making sure it wouldn't be like those mergers where one brand eventually goes away. That's not what we teach about the East.
only in our lifetime. And not all of you.
the lip service, that is.
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« Reply #133 on: June 14, 2014, 08:12:48 AM »

Well thank you.

The reason why some Orthodox patriarchates are against western rites is because beating the drum against ErCs is without any hint of a double standard if we didn't have "western rite" practice at all.   

Indeed one of the things that bother me most is that many Orthodox appear to reject anything that's even slightly similar to uniatism ... a kind of guilt-by-association as it were.

Witnessing in a backhanded way to something I believe, that partial unions aren't the goal. Our hosts' hardliners have a point that, because of our dueling true-church claims, ecumenism is zero-sum. One side would join the other. The thing is making sure it wouldn't be like those mergers where one brand eventually goes away. That's not what we teach about the East.
only in our lifetime.

Indeed. This is not your grandfather's Catholic-Orthodox relations.

(Or should I say "Vatican-Orthodox relations"?)
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« Reply #134 on: June 14, 2014, 08:18:44 AM »

The church's teachings can't change. What were the councils of Lyons and Ferrara-Florence trying to do? Reunite the Orthodox to the Catholic Church, not break them up. The difference now, though, is we don't pursue partial unions. (The Byzantine Catholic missions in Greece and Russia failed.) But the Ukrainians, for example, approached us for whatever reason (protection from the Poles), so the true-church claim means then, as now, we accept such conversions, individual and group, now albeit quietly.
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« Reply #135 on: June 14, 2014, 09:02:20 AM »

The church's teachings can't change. What were the councils of Lyons and Ferrara-Florence trying to do? Reunite the Orthodox to the Catholic Church, not break them up. The difference now, though, is we don't pursue partial unions. (The Byzantine Catholic missions in Greece and Russia failed.) But the Ukrainians, for example, approached us for whatever reason (protection from the Poles), so the true-church claim means then, as now, we accept such conversions, individual and group, now albeit quietly.

As this discussion  continued, it became interesting and somewhat enlightening.  "Lip-service" as Isa stated and Fogey' s last post make sense when read together.  Mutual distrust and suspicion of motives is not limited to one side or just among the laity.... But whatever the "intent" of the western Synods at Lyons and Florence may have been, I have little doubt that had "union" followed, the historical effect would have been to break up the Orthodox and the impacts of whatever Reformation may have occurred would have spread and developed in the east as well....
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« Reply #136 on: June 14, 2014, 09:07:51 AM »

(The Byzantine Catholic missions in Greece and Russia failed.)

Hmmm, I don't see that ... just like I don't see WRO as an outright failure.
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« Reply #137 on: June 14, 2014, 09:12:18 AM »

As this discussion  continued, it became interesting and somewhat enlightening.  "Lip-service" as Isa stated and Fogey' s last post make sense when read together.  Mutual distrust and suspicion of motives is not limited to one side or just among the laity.... But whatever the "intent" of the western Synods at Lyons and Florence may have been, I have little doubt that had "union" followed, the historical effect would have been to break up the Orthodox and the impacts of whatever Reformation may have occurred would have spread and developed in the east as well....

I basically agree, although it can be argued that in the Syriac/Antiochian world, "dual communion" was possible for some time even after the schism was set-in-stone by Florence (possibly right up until 1724).
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« Reply #138 on: June 14, 2014, 09:37:40 AM »

(The Byzantine Catholic missions in Greece and Russia failed.)

Hmmm, I don't see that ... just like I don't see WRO as an outright failure.

Nor do I, but it has not gained a lot of traction either....again, in my opinion for many of the same reasons eastern Catholicism reached a "high water" line and then receded..The square peg in round hole argument...

To the majority view in both the Roman world and the Orthodox World, regardless of the historical precedence for a multiplicity of "rites" within the undivided church, the presence of the ritual of the "others" just seems not to fit. I'm not justifying that POV, just noting its powerful reality. It's part of what drove many back to Orthodoxy from the Greek Catholic church in the centuries following the unions...

For example, if WRO is equally appropriate, why would ROCOR "train" WRO clergy to serve as Byzantines when joint services are held? Heck, the Romans never did that to the Greek Catholics in spite of everything. To me that alone sums things up regarding the ROCOR WRO. Separate, but never equal applies to both the ECC and the WRO.   I do not get how folks can accept that status. St Alexis didn't, my grandparents didn't, nor could I.
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« Reply #139 on: June 14, 2014, 10:56:50 AM »

^It should be noted that in the Orthodox world it's specifically the EO/Byzantine tradition that can't seem to accept that there are others doing things differently. Just look at inter-Byzantine squabbles about Antiochian vs Greek vs Russian vs polyphony vs chant etc. etc. We can't even accept variations within our own rite and fits get thrown over the "right way", and our differences are a joke compared to say the Syriac and Coptic rites, who can accept just fine that their rites are wholly different.
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« Reply #140 on: June 14, 2014, 11:24:24 AM »

(The Byzantine Catholic missions in Greece and Russia failed.)

Hmmm, I don't see that ... just like I don't see WRO as an outright failure.

Nor do I, but it has not gained a lot of traction either....again, in my opinion for many of the same reasons eastern Catholicism reached a "high water" line and then receded..The square peg in round hole argument...

To the majority view in both the Roman world and the Orthodox World, regardless of the historical precedence for a multiplicity of "rites" within the undivided church, the presence of the ritual of the "others" just seems not to fit. I'm not justifying that POV, just noting its powerful reality. It's part of what drove many back to Orthodoxy from the Greek Catholic church in the centuries following the unions...

For example, if WRO is equally appropriate, why would ROCOR "train" WRO clergy to serve as Byzantines when joint services are held? Heck, the Romans never did that to the Greek Catholics in spite of everything. To me that alone sums things up regarding the ROCOR WRO. Separate, but never equal applies to both the ECC and the WRO.   I do not get how folks can accept that status. St Alexis didn't, my grandparents didn't, nor could I.

^It should be noted that in the Orthodox world it's specifically the EO/Byzantine tradition that can't seem to accept that there are others doing things differently. Just look at inter-Byzantine squabbles about Antiochian vs Greek vs Russian vs polyphony vs chant etc. etc. We can't even accept variations within our own rite and fits get thrown over the "right way", and our differences are a joke compared to say the Syriac and Coptic rites, who can accept just fine that their rites are wholly different.

Excellent posts both.

I only have anecdotal evidence to support this, but I've become convinced that underlying much of this is a distaste (among Orthodox) for any parallels at all between Eastern Catholicism and WR Orthodoxy.

(Needless to say, I'm not saying that there wasn't anything wrong with the UoB and other "unias", but I hate guilt-by-association.)
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« Reply #141 on: June 15, 2014, 08:53:53 AM »

(The Byzantine Catholic missions in Greece and Russia failed.)

Hmmm, I don't see that ... just like I don't see WRO as an outright failure.

Nor do I, but it has not gained a lot of traction either....again, in my opinion for many of the same reasons eastern Catholicism reached a "high water" line and then receded. The square peg in round hole argument...

To the majority view in both the Roman world and the Orthodox world, regardless of the historical precedence for a multiplicity of "rites" within the undivided church, the presence of the ritual of the "others" just seems not to fit. I'm not justifying that POV, just noting its powerful reality. It's part of what drove many back to Orthodoxy from the Greek Catholic church in the centuries following the unions...

For example, if WRO is equally appropriate, why would ROCOR "train" WRO clergy to serve as Byzantines when joint services are held? Heck, the Romans never did that to the Greek Catholics in spite of everything. To me that alone sums things up regarding the ROCOR WRO. Separate, but never equal applies to both the ECC and the WRO.   I do not get how folks can accept that status. St Alexis didn't, my grandparents didn't, nor could I.

I hear you.

The difference between the sides is how they interpret that. I read it as a sign from God that, rather than a church setting up imitation churches of the other rites (but the true-church claims mean those churches have the right to be), all the Eastern churches should be back in the Catholic Church with their rites as is. Orthodox tend to read and practice it as the church equals the Byzantine Rite. Understandably (Cum Data Fuerit) the Orthodox often accuse Rome of believing vice versa but we really don't.

A successful medieval union wouldn't have destroyed the Orthodox rite because travel and communication were so hard that Rome couldn't have done that even if it wanted to (it didn't), so Greece, Russia, etc., would have carried on as normal, run by local custom is is right, much like the Melkites did but better.

The schisms in America happened because overlapping rites were largely a new experience for Catholic churchmen, and the Roman Riters handled it very badly. Rather like the uncanonical situation in American Orthodoxy of overlapping immigrant-based jurisdictions, another novelty, necessary because to force otherwise would be unfair/a pastoral disaster/suicidal.

Again I don't think the church ever saw partial unions as a permanent solution but arguably we used to pursue them as a goal. You can look at the failed missions in Greece and Russia two ways, as a witness to unity to persuade the Greek and Russian churches as a whole to come back (the approach I believe in, which is Catholic policy now), or with the goal of converting individual Orthodox. They failed at both (Orthodoxy's the state church of Greece so the government understandably cracked down on the mission; the Soviets, hating the Catholic Church because they couldn't take it over, crushed what little there was of the Russian Catholic Church, which at first foolishly welcomed the change in government as an opportunity to advance its work). Bad strategy because it makes the Orthodox not trust us.

The true heroes and protectors of Eastern Catholics in the 20th century weren't Toth or Chornock, as understandable as their situations were (but sad in my view, not something to celebrate, and again, our churchmen started it) but, for example, Metropolitan Andrew (Sheptytsky), an Easternizer, and acting Metropolitan Volodymyr (Sterniuk), who ran the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the Ukraine as a completely underground operation.

You think if the ACROD split hadn't happened, the Greek Catholics in America would have disappeared; they'd all be run-of-the-mill Novus Ordo Catholics with a few ethnic customs. Understandable but I don't think the outcome (a small, shrinking church) would have been much different. You'd still have had extreme self-latinization* in the '50s followed by the push from Rome to correct that for the ecumenical reason, with Vatican II. (Catholic churchmen's main concern with that was relations with Russia and Greece, not the schisms in America.) These churches still would have lost people after the third generation in America when they weren't really Carpatho-Russian or Ukrainian anymore, and they moved and married out of the ethnic communities. And vocations still would have cratered because of the one-two punch of the council and secularization in the larger culture. Clerical marriage, while good and your perfect right, doesn't stop those last two.

*I'm a moderate on latinization. (Some crossover is inevitable: among Arab Christians, and the mixture of Polish and Ukrainian customs, for example.) With the church I say don't start it, but where it exists I like it when it's pre-Vatican II and doesn't take over the rite, so the monsignori and the Rosary Society can go on forever as far as I'm concerned, but don't ban clerical marriage, take down the iconostasis, or replace Saturday Vespers with Roman Catholic devotions or a Saturday-night Mass.
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« Reply #142 on: September 22, 2014, 11:57:49 PM »

Because the Byzantine Empire was not contingent with American shores.
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« Reply #143 on: October 28, 2014, 12:23:12 AM »

I am not a Byzantine Catholic, because my people didn't come from an area that was the borderlands of powerful empires and religious institutions.  When you consider the response of other peoples in similar conditions (Bogomile Bosniaks and Orthodox Albanians who converted to Islam en mass), they at least managed to keep most of their religion in the face of rampant Poland and Austria.  After a few generations then this new form became THEIR church, the church of their fathers and the preserve of their language and culture.  So the entrance of Russian Nationalism on their homelands didn't hold much attraction for them (this is probably their perception, I am guessing) Now today perhaps, things are a little bit different.  The world is secular (well Europe anyway) and frowns on State Religions persecuting minorities.  Our Byzantine cousins, could very well assert themselves, by moving closer to Orthodoxy, demanding more respect from the Vatican or going their own path.  One thing for sure... they probably aren't in the mood to punked by anybody.

My family came from an area that was thoroughly conquered and annexed by a Muslim Empire that, for the most part left our religion alone*.  As the mongols did with our Russian brothers.  Perhaps other empires and would be empires should take note...

*Well they did depose our patriarch and placed us under the Ecumenical Patriarch, but in their defense the Osmanli didn't have much appreciation for Orthodox subtlety and nuance.  The Sultan's ministers didn't recognize nationality, they recognized religion.  Each religious group in the empire was recognized as a flock (reyya), so one shepherd for each Orthodox, Catholic and Jewish flock.  Better to husband them and better to fleece them.  The Osmanli did have a sense of history however, so they made reyya concessions to the independence of the legacy partiarchs in Alexandria, Jerusalem and Antioch, when they eventually conquered those areas in the sixteenth century.  By then they had a better understanding of the workings in the Orthodox Church, plus they had many Phanariots working in their administrative apparatus.
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« Reply #144 on: October 28, 2014, 06:03:39 AM »

Well put, Strongylocentrotus. Though there is a vestigial Bulgarian Byzantine Catholic Church, left over from a 19th-century attempt at Bulgarian church independence from Constantinople as the country was struggling for independence from the Turks (the enemy of my enemy is my friend). But when the Bulgarian Orthodox Church broke away from Constantinople, most of the people returned to it.

What you wrote well describes why the first Eastern Europeans and Eastern Christians I knew, Ukrainian Catholics, would have been horrified and outraged (might well have beaten the tar out of someone if someone said it in person) if some "online Byzantine Catholic" told them their true future is to discard Catholic doctrine and ask the Orthodox to receive them economically, pretty much the party line in Byzantine Catholic fora (where I imagine few born Byzantine Catholics participate - they're older and don't care about the Internet). The Ukrainian Catholics chose to take their church underground, risking martyrdom, or to go into exile in America rather than do just that when the Soviets ordered them to.

Real Byzantine Catholics, such as the Ukrainians I knew, "demand more respect from the Vatican"; they don't want to leave the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #145 on: October 28, 2014, 07:28:07 AM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

Exactly.... They're wolves in sheep's clothing either way.
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« Reply #146 on: October 28, 2014, 07:39:47 AM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

Exactly.... They're wolves in sheep's clothing either way.

I understand even though of course I disagree. The strict Orthodox view on this is like how we see the Episcopalians using their Foreign Rites Canon. When they took in some Italian convert parishes (that had been independent, having left the Catholic Church), they allowed them to keep the traditional Roman Rite. Rather as if a United Methodist minister set up in a Greek neighborhood, suited up in Byzantine vestments, and claimed to offer the Divine Liturgy every Sunday. False-flag operation.
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« Reply #147 on: October 28, 2014, 08:53:44 AM »

I am not a Byzantine Catholic, because my people didn't come from an area that was the borderlands of powerful empires and religious institutions.  When you consider the response of other peoples in similar conditions (Bogomile Bosniaks and Orthodox Albanians who converted to Islam en mass), they at least managed to keep most of their religion in the face of rampant Poland and Austria.  After a few generations then this new form became THEIR church, the church of their fathers and the preserve of their language and culture.  So the entrance of Russian Nationalism on their homelands didn't hold much attraction for them (this is probably their perception, I am guessing) Now today perhaps, things are a little bit different.  The world is secular (well Europe anyway) and frowns on State Religions persecuting minorities.  Our Byzantine cousins, could very well assert themselves, by moving closer to Orthodoxy, demanding more respect from the Vatican or going their own path.  One thing for sure... they probably aren't in the mood to punked by anybody.

My family came from an area that was thoroughly conquered and annexed by a Muslim Empire that, for the most part left our religion alone*.  As the mongols did with our Russian brothers.  Perhaps other empires and would be empires should take note...

*Well they did depose our patriarch and placed us under the Ecumenical Patriarch, but in their defense the Osmanli didn't have much appreciation for Orthodox subtlety and nuance.  The Sultan's ministers didn't recognize nationality, they recognized religion.  Each religious group in the empire was recognized as a flock (reyya), so one shepherd for each Orthodox, Catholic and Jewish flock.  Better to husband them and better to fleece them.  The Osmanli did have a sense of history however, so they made reyya concessions to the independence of the legacy partiarchs in Alexandria, Jerusalem and Antioch, when they eventually conquered those areas in the sixteenth century.  By then they had a better understanding of the workings in the Orthodox Church, plus they had many Phanariots working in their administrative apparatus.

Well said.

As to "wolves in sheep's nothing", that may have/did describe the hierarchy which acceded to the Hungarian and Polish aristocracy' s demands in the 16th and 17th centuries, it has no application today. Eastern Catholicism is not a threat to, nor is it appealing to Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #148 on: October 28, 2014, 09:58:34 AM »

Eastern Catholicism is not a threat to, nor is it appealing to Orthodox Christians.

Pretty much, which makes Metropolitan Hilarion's (Alfeyev) repeating the Russian line in Rome sound both out of touch and mean.
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« Reply #149 on: October 28, 2014, 11:03:10 AM »

Eastern Catholicism is not a threat to, nor is it appealing to Orthodox Christians.

Pretty much, which makes Metropolitan Hilarion's (Alfeyev) repeating the Russian line in Rome sound both out of touch and mean.

Out of touch is accurate, as for many "been there, done that, not gonna do it again" would apply to both those whose families are today Orthodox as well as many who are Greek Catholics.
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« Reply #150 on: October 28, 2014, 11:09:14 AM »

"been there, done that, not gonna do it again"

Let's just say I know that tune.

The Ukrainian Catholics I knew most emphatically did not regret being Catholic.
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« Reply #151 on: October 28, 2014, 11:33:26 AM »

"been there, done that, not gonna do it again"

Let's just say I know that tune.

The Ukrainian Catholics I knew most emphatically did not regret being Catholic.

I certainly don't regret NOT being one. I wouldn't be here otherwise. Cheesy ( And I don't mean the Forum, I mean HERE...)
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« Reply #152 on: October 28, 2014, 11:39:52 AM »

I'm sure you're happy.
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« Reply #153 on: October 28, 2014, 01:06:22 PM »

Eastern Catholicism is not a threat to, nor is it appealing to Orthodox Christians.

Pretty much, which makes Metropolitan Hilarion's (Alfeyev) repeating the Russian line in Rome sound both out of touch and mean.

Out of touch is accurate, as for many "been there, done that, not gonna do it again" would apply to both those whose families are today Orthodox as well as many who are Greek Catholics.

Perhaps this is the case in Russia, Ukraine, and the rest of Eastern Europe as a whole, I don't know enough to say either way, but it happens elsewhere in the Christian East.  At least for this reason, I support the Metropolitan's remarks.     
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