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Author Topic: why are you not a byzantine catholic  (Read 4146 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 21, 2014, 02:17:19 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2014, 02:21:52 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Byzantine Catholicism has many contradictions and internal discrepancies with Roman doctrine. (Such as Roman dogmatic acceptance of the Filioque, which Byzantines don't accept, and post-Schism Saints who were opposed to Rome being venerated by Byzantine Catholics, e.g., St. Photius, St. Gregory Palamas, St. Justinian) That, and I don't agree with Roman doctrine.
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2014, 02:42:26 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?


I used to be.  Not any more as they are subservient to the pope and are required to toe the the line and they are not Orthodox although some will tell you they are.

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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2014, 02:46:23 PM »

Even if I wanted to pray a Rosary in front of a Divine Mercy icon, Byzantine Catholicism is geographically prohibitive for me.
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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2014, 02:46:41 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

They seem to worship the Pope.

 Roll Eyes

 laugh

Just kidding. When I was a Melkite, most of the Melkites considered themselves Orthodox. The Pope was mentioned in the Liturgy because it was prescribed, but they did not consider themselves under Rome, but in communion with Rome.
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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2014, 03:03:07 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

I don't agree with their position on papal primacy.   
I don't agree with their acceptance of the Filioque in the creed, even if they don't use it. 
Nevertheless, in their defense, I think that in many cases their faith as practiced and lived is about as close to Orthodoxy without its entire fullness as you can get. 
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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2014, 03:05:22 PM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2014, 03:14:50 PM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

And because of that, Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochians once said that the Eastern Catholics are schizophrenic.
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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2014, 03:31:37 PM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

And because of that, Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochians once said that the Eastern Catholics are schizophrenic.
Some things said about Byzantine Catholics can be said about Western Orthodox.
Anyway, take a look at the schizophrenia in Ukraine today. Some want to be aligned with the EU, while others with Russia.
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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2014, 03:41:43 PM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

And because of that, Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochians once said that the Eastern Catholics are schizophrenic.
Some things said about Byzantine Catholics can be said about Western Orthodox.
Anyway, take a look at the schizophrenia in Ukraine today. Some want to be aligned with the EU, while others with Russia.

Exactly what does that have to do with being a Byzantine Catholic, or not?
Don't bring politics in to this discussion.
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2014, 03:44:22 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

My objection is that they are Orthodox wannabees.

They originate from Orthodoxy.  Were forced to leave the Faith...yet, still retain some vestiges.  They look like us, smell like us, even sound like us a lot of the time....and yet....

It's a shame that they can't realize they are now free to return to their Mother Church without persecution.

God willing they will see the Light.

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

I sympathize with them, but, I cannot understand why they insist on hanging on to Rome, even now.
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2014, 03:49:05 PM »

I didn't know it existed when I decided on orthodoxy. Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2014, 04:18:05 PM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

And because of that, Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochians once said that the Eastern Catholics are schizophrenic.
Some things said about Byzantine Catholics can be said about Western Orthodox.
Anyway, take a look at the schizophrenia in Ukraine today. Some want to be aligned with the EU, while others with Russia.

Exactly what does that have to do with being a Byzantine Catholic, or not?
Don't bring politics in to this discussion.

Byzantine Catholicism had its origin in the 1596 decision of the  union of Brest according to which a number of Orthodox bishops in Ukraine and nearby regions (including parts of Poland and Belarus and Lithuania) decided to align themselves with the western Church. Someone else brought up schizophrenia. I was only commenting on it and how it applies even today in Ukraine, which is where Byzantine Catholicism had its origin, at least in part. Why avoid politics if it is part of the discussion?
Further, if Byzantine Catholics are schizophrenic, why can't you say the same about the western rite Orthodox?
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2014, 04:35:48 PM »


I'm not calling anyone schizophrenic.  I think it's mean spirited and incorrect.
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2014, 04:41:22 PM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

And because of that, Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochians once said that the Eastern Catholics are schizophrenic.
Some things said about Byzantine Catholics can be said about Western Orthodox.
Anyway, take a look at the schizophrenia in Ukraine today. Some want to be aligned with the EU, while others with Russia.

Exactly what does that have to do with being a Byzantine Catholic, or not?
Don't bring politics in to this discussion.

Byzantine Catholicism had its origin in the 1596 decision of the  union of Brest according to which a number of Orthodox bishops in Ukraine and nearby regions (including parts of Poland and Belarus and Lithuania) decided to align themselves with the western Church. Someone else brought up schizophrenia. I was only commenting on it and how it applies even today in Ukraine, which is where Byzantine Catholicism had its origin, at least in part. Why avoid politics if it is part of the discussion?
Further, if Byzantine Catholics are schizophrenic, why can't you say the same about the western rite Orthodox?

Good point, if I had to answer, it would be because Byzantines appropriate Latin traditions and doctrines while trying to remain the way they are. Whereas, Western Orthodox conform their Latin traditions to Orthodox doctrine.
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2014, 04:46:01 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Everything.
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2014, 04:51:59 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Everything.

What do you have against the resurrection of Christ?
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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2014, 04:53:47 PM »


I'm not calling anyone schizophrenic.  I think it's mean spirited and incorrect.


Liza:

I don't think it is mean spirited nor incorrect at least in my case.  It really was a train wreck for me spiritually once I became truly aware of the Orthodox faith.  I went bonkers spiritually but landed on my feet in the Orthodox church.  Sorry if this offends some folks here but the older I get the less tolerance I have for trying to be politically correct. 

Viking   
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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2014, 05:07:03 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Everything.

What do you have against the resurrection of Christ?

You can probably still find some good Christian elements in Mormonism and the Jehova's Witnesses too.
A Byzantine Catholic should become Orthodox Christian, they are in heresy, a pretty OK decent heresy I'll admit.
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« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2014, 05:09:32 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Everything.

What do you have against the resurrection of Christ?

You can probably still find some good Christian elements in Mormonism and the Jehova's Witnesses too.
A Byzantine Catholic should become Orthodox Christian, they are in heresy, a pretty OK decent heresy I'll admit.

I don't think there is any way, in light of the ancient canons on modes of reception of schismatics and heretics, and millennia of church praxis on reception of converts, let alone the substantive teaching, that you can make such a comparison between Greek Catholics and Mormons/JWs. 
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« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2014, 05:14:22 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Everything.

What do you have against the resurrection of Christ?

You can probably still find some good Christian elements in Mormonism and the Jehova's Witnesses too.
A Byzantine Catholic should become Orthodox Christian, they are in heresy, a pretty OK decent heresy I'll admit.

I don't think there is any way, in light of the ancient canons on modes of reception of schismatics and heretics, and millennia of church praxis on reception of converts, let alone the substantive teaching, that you can make such a comparison between Greek Catholics and Mormons/JWs. 

A mormon, Greek Catholic or whatever can experience Theosis and be better than an Orthodox Christian.
But their organization or Church is still in schism.
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« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2014, 05:15:42 PM »


I'm not calling anyone schizophrenic.  I think it's mean spirited and incorrect.


Liza:

I don't think it is mean spirited nor incorrect at least in my case.  It really was a train wreck for me spiritually once I became truly aware of the Orthodox faith.  I went bonkers spiritually but landed on my feet in the Orthodox church.  Sorry if this offends some folks here but the older I get the less tolerance I have for trying to be politically correct.  

Viking  

I think that was the real intent of Father John Mangels. He was definitely not being mean-spirited. He knew too many Eastern/Roman Catholics because he was once a Roman Catholic too, so he knew the struggle they were going through. Thus, he advised those on the fence: "Put aside the schizophrenia of trying to be both Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christian, and become an Orthodox Christian."

You know the joke about the mugwump:
It is a bird that sits on the fence with his mug on one side and his wump on the other.
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« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2014, 05:17:03 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Everything.

What do you have against the resurrection of Christ?

They don't worship it. They worship papal tail.
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« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2014, 05:19:42 PM »

In light of some posts on the thread, let me just add...

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

I meant this in sympathy, though also in expressing my hesitancy to say much about it. It seems like no one--including even Byzantine Catholics priests I've heard--are particularly happy or satisfied with the situation as it now stands. Yet some find it still to be the best accommodation regarding the various ideas and practices pulling at them.
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« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2014, 05:19:59 PM »

They don't worship it. They worship papal tail.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=based
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« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2014, 05:44:35 PM »

It's a shame that they can't realize they are now free to return to their Mother Church without persecution.

God willing they will see the Light.

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

I sympathize with them, but, I cannot understand why they insist on hanging on to Rome, even now.

I would say many do realize they can become part of the Orthodox Church again, but most have no desire to do so. There has been a lot of bad blood between the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics. Perhaps the most recent scar was the support the Orthodox gave when the Soviets suppressed the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the 1940's. They hang onto Rome because many of their forefathers gave their lives in witness of the Catholic faith. Also, many hang on to Rome because they believe that the Catholic Church is the Church.
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« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2014, 06:02:22 PM »

Yes, if you are happy with your family, and they are Byzantine Catholic, sometimes there is no desire to look elsewhere.

My mother is Carpatho-Russian Byzantine Catholic and I was fascinated as a child with Byzantine Catholicism. The candles, the icons, the chanting.  So different from the post Vatican II Roman Catholic churches.  When I looked deeper, I was humbled by the stories of the Byzantine priests who were martyred under Soviet persecution.  Bishops and priests who were executed.  But, one stood out for me, and that was Alexander Chira.   When he was sent to Soviet prison, he was imprisoned for quite a long time.  One of his cell-mates was a Jew who eventually made it to Israel, and he shared what it was like to be with Alexander Chira.  He told of a very peaceful, devout man.  Some other cell-mate was stealing food, and to get them to confess, they focused the abuse on Alexander Chira, who was sickly and frail, to tell who had stolen the food.   Instead of telling, Alexander Chira took the punishment for the cell-mate that had stolen food.   The prison picture that was published, showed Alexander Chira with his beard shaven, but with the kindest eyes and the most peaceful expression.   He seemed to have accepted his cross and was focused on God.   After many years he was released and sent to Central Siberia where he functioned clandestinely as a priest.  It was hard for me to turn my back on these heroes.  But, ultimately God called me to Orthodoxy. 


It's a shame that they can't realize they are now free to return to their Mother Church without persecution.

God willing they will see the Light.

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

I sympathize with them, but, I cannot understand why they insist on hanging on to Rome, even now.

I would say many do realize they can become part of the Orthodox Church again, but most have no desire to do so. There has been a lot of bad blood between the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics. Perhaps the most recent scar was the support the Orthodox gave when the Soviets suppressed the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the 1940's. They hang onto Rome because many of their forefathers gave their lives in witness of the Catholic faith. Also, many hang on to Rome because they believe that the Catholic Church is the Church.

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« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2014, 06:08:58 PM »

We should not judge.

I think the Final Judgment will be a shock to most of us.

There may well be some Roman Catholics who have higher places in Heaven than we do.

However, we must discern and choose the truth. This is not easy as we are sinners.

Lord have mercy.

Yes, if you are happy with your family, and they are Byzantine Catholic, sometimes there is no desire to look elsewhere.

My mother is Carpatho-Russian Byzantine Catholic and I was fascinated as a child with Byzantine Catholicism. The candles, the icons, the chanting.  So different from the post Vatican II Roman Catholic churches.  When I looked deeper, I was humbled by the stories of the Byzantine priests who were martyred under Soviet persecution.  Bishops and priests who were executed.  But, one stood out for me, and that was Alexander Chira.   When he was sent to Soviet prison, he was imprisoned for quite a long time.  One of his cell-mates was a Jew who eventually made it to Israel, and he shared what it was like to be with Alexander Chira.  He told of a very peaceful, devout man.  Some other cell-mate was stealing food, and to get them to confess, they focused the abuse on Alexander Chira, who was sickly and frail, to tell who had stolen the food.   Instead of telling, Alexander Chira took the punishment for the cell-mate that had stolen food.   The prison picture that was published, showed Alexander Chira with his beard shaven, but with the kindest eyes and the most peaceful expression.   He seemed to have accepted his cross and was focused on God.   After many years he was released and sent to Central Siberia where he functioned clandestinely as a priest.  It was hard for me to turn my back on these heroes.  But, ultimately God called me to Orthodoxy. 


It's a shame that they can't realize they are now free to return to their Mother Church without persecution.

God willing they will see the Light.

I find their Faith rings hallow.  It is close....from the outside it looks great....but, the inside is empty.

I sympathize with them, but, I cannot understand why they insist on hanging on to Rome, even now.

I would say many do realize they can become part of the Orthodox Church again, but most have no desire to do so. There has been a lot of bad blood between the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics. Perhaps the most recent scar was the support the Orthodox gave when the Soviets suppressed the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the 1940's. They hang onto Rome because many of their forefathers gave their lives in witness of the Catholic faith. Also, many hang on to Rome because they believe that the Catholic Church is the Church.


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« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2014, 07:12:39 PM »

I don't think there is any way, in light of the ancient canons on modes of reception of schismatics and heretics, and millennia of church praxis on reception of converts, let alone the substantive teaching, that you can make such a comparison between Greek Catholics and Mormons/JWs. 

Yes, but never let facts get in the way of a grudge. 
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« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2014, 07:15:28 PM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?

Everything.

What do you have against the resurrection of Christ?

You can probably still find some good Christian elements in Mormonism and the Jehova's Witnesses too.
A Byzantine Catholic should become Orthodox Christian, they are in heresy, a pretty OK decent heresy I'll admit.

My intention was simply to point out that the answer to "What are your objections to the Byzantine Catholic faith?" cannot be "Everything" unless ignorance is now truth.  But judging from some of the responses, maybe it is.   
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« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2014, 08:12:27 PM »

I meant this in sympathy, though also in expressing my hesitancy to say much about it. It seems like no one--including even Byzantine Catholics priests I've heard--are particularly happy or satisfied with the situation as it now stands. Yet some find it still to be the best accommodation regarding the various ideas and practices pulling at them.

Yeah, the recent Melkite archbishop Elias Zoghby that I keep throwing around on this forum seemed to pretty much say that Eastern Catholics are in a bad place, historically and now. He said something along the lines of: Eastern Catholics aren't fully Orthodox, yet Orthodox aren't fully Catholic (because of the East-West Schism). Nobody wins, really, except those EC's that are okay with being under the Latin Church I suppose.
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« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2014, 08:21:40 PM »

I meant this in sympathy, though also in expressing my hesitancy to say much about it. It seems like no one--including even Byzantine Catholics priests I've heard--are particularly happy or satisfied with the situation as it now stands. Yet some find it still to be the best accommodation regarding the various ideas and practices pulling at them.

Yeah, the recent Melkite archbishop Elias Zoghby that I keep throwing around on this forum seemed to pretty much say that Eastern Catholics are in a bad place, historically and now. He said something along the lines of: Eastern Catholics aren't fully Orthodox, yet Orthodox aren't fully Catholic (because of the East-West Schism). Nobody wins, really, except those EC's that are okay with being under the Latin Church I suppose.

Many Eastern Catholics that I have known are not really happy with the situation as it is. They feel that they are between a rock and a hard place. Archbishop Zoghby resounds a favorable note with them. However, they realize that his plan is not realistic nor acceptable at the Vatican. On the one hand, they do not like Vatican interference in their daily affairs, nor being treated like a step-child and ignored by the Vatican. Yet, on the other hand, they do not like the idea of having to become a catechumen and accept Chrismation in order to become Orthodox Christians as they believe that they are already Orthodox Christians.

Nevertheless, I have met some very devout Melkites.

Edit: I must add that as an Orthodox Christian, I feel the presence of Divine Grace in the struggles I must face. When I was in a cloistered monastery, and we were listening to tapes by by the late Fr. Thomas Merton who was promoting Buddhism, I felt so cold spiritually. At that point, I realized that something was wrong with Roman Catholicism.  I have not looked back or wanted to return to Roman Catholicism.
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« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2014, 08:48:01 PM »

I suppose I am not a Byzantine Catholic for the same reasons I am not a Roman Catholic. I disagree with a number of Catholic doctrines. That being said, I admire the Roman Catholic Church in many respects (I almost became one), and I did consider Eastern Catholicism. Roman Catholics who admire Orthodoxy are often asked "Why don't you just become an Eastern Catholic?"
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« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2014, 08:52:11 PM »

I suppose I am not a Byzantine Catholic for the same reasons I am not a Roman Catholic. I disagree with a number of Catholic doctrines. That being said, I admire the Roman Catholic Church in many respects (I almost became one), and I did consider Eastern Catholicism. Roman Catholics who admire Orthodoxy are often asked "Why don't you just become an Eastern Catholic?"

Yes, I was asked that question, so I became an Eastern Catholic, but once I started actively participating in retreats and conferences, I realized that quite a few of my fellow parishioners were seeking instruction in Orthodox Christianity. When I left to start the Orthodox catechumenate, about three parishioners left with me. Since then, quite a few more have left the parish to embrace Orthodoxy.

The Melkite Bishop said with discouragement that the Melkite Church was to be a bridge leading Orthodox Christians "home" to Rome, instead it is drawing Roman Catholics first into the Melkite Church and then into Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2014, 10:11:28 PM »

Many Eastern Catholics that I have known are not really happy with the situation as it is. They feel that they are between a rock and a hard place. Archbishop Zoghby resounds a favorable note with them. However, they realize that his plan is not realistic nor acceptable at the Vatican. On the one hand, they do not like Vatican interference in their daily affairs, nor being treated like a step-child and ignored by the Vatican.

I wonder which Eastern Catholic Churches tend to feel this way or not.

To show what I mean, the few Byzantine Catholics (Ruthenians) I know appear to be very content with the situation. They behave almost as if they're just a unique Rite-specific diocese in the Latin Church. So while they have a very Eastern church, talk about Eastern saints and fasting/feast days, they're also just as much about Latin saints, devotions, apparitions, current events etc., and Latin hierarchs/the Pope (I never see them mention their own hierarchs). They're very much into Eastern Code of Canon Law or whatever, Vatican II (e.g. its Orientalium Ecclesiarum), etc. I'm not sure why, but all of it makes me feel awkward to see.

This contrasts with the Melkites I've seen and read from who seem to go out of their way to affirm their Melkite Antiochian identity, and that they are not just indirect subjects of the Latin Church.
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« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2014, 10:22:12 PM »

I know Eastern Catholic ( Not all eastern Catholics are the same ) but this one doesn't believe in Purgatory, Filique, Rome's primacy, doesn't believe that the Pope is the vicar of Christ on earth, even the liturgy/mass in the church is so so similar to the Orthodox liturgy.

I never want to become Byzantine Catholic because with all due respect, I don't want to live two lives, one where I'm faithful to the Orthodox beliefs, yet, I'm in communion with a religious institute that is against what Orthodoxy teaches, it doesn't mix.

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« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2014, 10:31:36 PM »

SWYP?
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« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2014, 10:33:21 PM »

Eastern Catholics are a broad spectrum, ranging from those who are fully Roman Catholic in mentality, while using the "bells and smells" of Orthodoxy in their worship, to those whose only concessions to Rome are using the Gregorian calendar for their Paschal liturgical cycle, and commemorating the Pope of Rome in litanies.
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« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2014, 10:56:34 PM »

I know Eastern Catholic ( Not all eastern Catholics are the same ) but this one doesn't believe in Purgatory, Filique, Rome's primacy, doesn't believe that the Pope is the vicar of Christ on earth, even the liturgy/mass in the church is so so similar to the Orthodox liturgy.

I never want to become Byzantine Catholic because with all due respect, I don't want to live two lives, one where I'm faithful to the Orthodox beliefs, yet, I'm in communion with a religious institute that is against what Orthodoxy teaches, it doesn't mix.



Then he is defying the pope and according to the RC that means he is going to hell. Their words not mine.  Why does he not just become Orthodox and stop with the silliness?

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« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2014, 01:04:29 AM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

+1000.  They try to have it both ways and you can't.  You're either in the una sancta or you're not.  Byz Catholics are not.
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« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2014, 01:04:29 AM »

what are you objections to the byzantine catholic fath?
It is Byzantine, meaning it is not the heritage of New Rome, but the Vatican inspired caricature of it, and it does not hold to the Catholic Faith of the Orthodox Creed.
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« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2014, 03:05:45 AM »


I'm not calling anyone schizophrenic.  I think it's mean spirited and incorrect.

Thanks Liza. I suppose it could have unpleasant connotations in some sense of the term.
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« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2014, 03:51:13 AM »

...

My intention was simply to point out that the answer to "What are your objections to the Byzantine Catholic faith?" cannot be "Everything" unless ignorance is now truth.  
...

Not necessarily. If someone regards them as being a mockery of everything they manifest, the statement "everything" is absolutely valid.
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« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2014, 03:57:48 AM »

The historical facts of the byzantine catholics do not make sense to me to be the true church

to me there were two options that I faced when looking for the church

the roman catholics made sense enough for me. the centeralization made sense, an orderly church with clear ranks. this was just superficial admiration of course, i did not study into the catholic church i just knew it had an apostolic succession. I never thought seriously about  becoming a catholic, as i found out that the first and second vatican councils occured, from there on i read more and more things which did not make sense to me in their history so i looked elsewhere, and read about the orthodox church

the byzantine catholics made less sense than the normal catholics to me
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« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2014, 08:51:07 AM »

They are too Orthodox to be Catholic and too Catholic to be Orthodox.  Undecided

And because of that, Archimandrite John Mangels of the Antiochians once said that the Eastern Catholics are schizophrenic.

I'd say first that as heirs to the churches of the East we ARE Byzantine Carholics in the truest sense.

The churches of the so-called Eastern Rites came into existence as a result of political considerations. When the Dodecanese Islands came under Venetian rule, or Cyprus under Latin Franks, or when the Western Ukraine was conquered by Poland, for example, some provision had to be made for an Orthodox Christian population under a government in obedience to the Bishop of Rome. It was an accommodation, if you will, and probably preferable to mass forced conversions. The result is some 20-plus ER jurisdictions under Rome, with a complete code of canon law to themselves.

I don't believe any Orthodox Christian would say there's no difference, that the Eastern Rites are simply Orthodox under Rome. And I think it's more than just the standard list of theological objections. Even the words we have in common feel different in an Eastern Rite church.

The wound to Christ's church is deep and tragic--not only along lines of East and West. Within the Orthodox communities themselves we are not one. We give weight to the folly of our own reasonings instead of remembering what we share: a faith in the Risen Lord.
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