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Author Topic: Terri Schiavo  (Read 11828 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: March 29, 2005, 01:00:26 PM »

Quote
In an interview yesterday, Maximos said he regretted not speaking earlier and praised Catholic leaders who had advocated the right to life of the brain-damaged Florida woman.

"Murder is a strong word that nobody wants to use, but that is what it is," he said of her husband's decision to remove her source of food and water.

Bravo for Bishop Maximos......looks like standing up to evil in our society is not a "western notion" afterall. I hope to see more of our Bishops be at the forefront of these culteral issues in the fuiture.
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« Reply #91 on: March 29, 2005, 01:22:24 PM »

...and who started practicing yoga in college.

For the record,
practitioner of yoga <> Hindu heretic.  If you look at any modern stretching, physical therapy or other exercise program (e.g. Pilates), most of their poses/stretches are essentially borrowed from yoga.  Now, if you said that they are a disciple of Yogi so-and-so, yup, he's gone off the deep end (or is getting close).  We all can do a whole bunch of prostrations and have them nothing to do with prayer/Christianity/theosis/etc.
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« Reply #92 on: March 29, 2005, 05:57:51 PM »

practitioner of yoga <> Hindu heretic. If you look at any modern stretching, physical therapy or other exercise program (e.g. Pilates), most of their poses/stretches are essentially borrowed from yoga.
The aim of yoga is not simply physical therapy for physical health. Yoga mudras and meditation are designed to achieve 'spiritual' results- or do we now believe that 'chakras' are physically locatable in the human body and can be found in an autopsy? You don't have to be a disciple of a yogi to play around with these practices, as Felos has, and as I did in my younger niaive days. Is a Hindu who crosses himself with three fingers mearly performing a physical excersise?
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« Reply #93 on: March 29, 2005, 11:02:32 PM »

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« Reply #94 on: March 29, 2005, 11:47:27 PM »

ozgeorge: Read  " Orthodoxy and the religion of the future"(chapter four) by Father Seraphim Rose in reference to seperating yoga from hinduism.

       About Terry ...I find it it ironic that many of the same people ( ACLU..etc.) who are so ready to justify pulling her feeding tube and watch her die, are the same set who claim that the death sentence for death row inmates is inhumane.
     
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« Reply #95 on: March 30, 2005, 12:41:34 AM »

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The aim of yoga is not simply physical therapy for physical health. Yoga mudras and meditation are designed to achieve 'spiritual' results- or do we now believe that 'chakras' are physically locatable in the human body and can be found in an autopsy? You don't have to be a disciple of a yogi to play around with these practices, as Felos has, and as I did in my younger niaive days. Is a Hindu who crosses himself with three fingers mearly performing a physical excersise?

Are you saying such practices are dangerous? I don't have a problem with such practices and eastern religion/philosophy in general. I mean there are alot of good things to be gleaned from such things. I think if you detach the 'new age' B.S. that obviously can run through some of these practice/beleifs I don't see it as being dangerous at all. I just read a book by Krishnamurti and found many good practical insights but at the same time disagreed with many things that were patently false.

Quote
The article on Felos paints a character of someone that wanted to be spiritual, but did not find it in the church , and it seems like he has been grasping at straws trying to fulfill a need...His telepathic claim is wacky... but probably stems from a huge whole in his spritual life... what a shame... This only shows how much harm can be done by someone in deep need of spirituality, but using the wrong tools...  Based on his age, I can say that he is not the only one who left the church for this reason...40+years ago, the Greek church in this country did not relate to the American experience of the 1st & 2nd generation , and I met numerous people who left it to find a church that they felt could help them in their lives day to day...   This is one reason why today the GO has a department of "evangelism and Spiritual renewal" , trying to help bring back people.  Felos I believe is already too far gone...   

I've never understood why 2nd and 3rd generation ethnic Orthodox leave the church or view it as some kind of social get togethor. I mean is Orthodoxy missing something or are these people just very lazy and could care less? When you take a look at the evangelicals they do a real good job at keeping thier youth interested in church and they have a zeal for living the christian life. The Orthodox youth should be the same if not more zealous since it's the true Church.

 
Quote
About Terry ...I find it it ironic that many of the same people ( ACLU..etc.) who are so ready to justify pulling her feeding tube and watch her die, are the same set who claim that the death sentence for death row inmates is inhumane.
     
                             In Christ , Moses

If you want the perfect "poster boy" of a home grown terrorist organization the ACLU is just that. They sure know how to work the system through their thugery and threats of lawsuits with unlimited resources to run over anyone they target. Ussually it consist of poor school districts, counties and cities that have very offending symbols such as a cross on a county seal or the word 'christmas' (Gasp!) on a school calendar. They also lend their services for free to child molesters such as NAMBLA and more lately defending the rights of islamo-fascist at GITMO who would kill your family in the blink of an eye for 77 virgins. Sheesh morons, how about lending your services for free to the 9/11 families they may need it? I find it very disturbing that now (as if it was any of their business) they have inserted themselves as Michael Shiavo's co-counsel to see to it that they starve Terri Schiavo to death. I think at this point they need to remove "civil liberties" from their title because what they have done since the 70's has not been very civil at all and now they resort to starving the weakest in our society to death while filing appeal after appeal to see to it terrorist and murderers on death row live a good life. The ACLU jumped the shark a long time ago and these people are the worst of the worst.     

« Last Edit: March 30, 2005, 12:47:36 AM by Nacho » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: March 30, 2005, 03:24:26 AM »

ozgeorge: Read " Orthodoxy and the religion of the future"(chapter four) by Father Seraphim Rose in reference to seperating yoga from hinduism.

 About Terry ...I find it it ironic that many of the same people ( ACLU..etc.) who are so ready to justify pulling her feeding tube and watch her die, are the same set who claim that the death sentence for death row inmates is inhumane.
 
 In Christ , Moses

This is getting WAY off topic, but just to set the record, not everything Fr. Seraphim says Dogma/Canon Law/Gospel/consensus patrum/etc.

ozgeorge,
I'm perfectly aware of those aspects of yoga.  That's why it is just exercise/PT for me.  But ask yourself, if I'm just in it superficially, is it actually yoga or just a bunch of poses?  What about other stretching that is essentially the same?
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« Reply #97 on: March 30, 2005, 05:54:17 AM »


The aim of yoga is not simply physical therapy for physical health. Yoga mudras and meditation are designed to achieve 'spiritual' results- or do we now believe that 'chakras' are physically locatable in the human body and can be found in an autopsy? You don't have to be a disciple of a yogi to play around with these practices, as Felos has, and as I did in my younger niaive days. Is a Hindu who crosses himself with three fingers mearly performing a physical excersise?


Yes, but there's a difference between doing an exercise that happens to be a yoga pose and seeking "spiritual results."  I have a few yoga DVDs.  The more athletic ones that don't do any meditation or breathing.  Placing oneself in the downward facing dog or mountain pose doesn't 'channel' evil spirits or something.  Further, yoga is super-trendy these days and most of my new workout DVDs incorporate yoga into the cool-down stretch. 

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« Reply #98 on: March 30, 2005, 06:21:12 AM »

Are you saying such practices are dangerous?
But ask yourself, if I'm just in it superficially, is it actually yoga or just a bunch of poses? What about other stretching that is essentially the same?
This is way off topic, and so will be my last post on this subject in this thread, I would be happy to discuss it in another thread. But to answer your question: I'm a man of science and an Orthodox Christian. No Science I've ever studied has shown the existence of "kundalini" or "chi" or "chakras", and no Scriptures or Fathers of the Orthodox Church speak of the existence of "kundalini" or "chi" or "chakras"- and yet, the practice of yoga depends on their existence and manipulation. If science doesn't know what we are manipulating or opening ourselves to in yoga, and the Church doesn't know what we are manipulating or opening ourselves to in yoga- how can you be so certain it is safe?
If you are stretching, then you are stretching, so why not say you are stretching? Why call it yoga? Bread is bread, but when we call it "prosforo", it's meaning, significance, purpose and quality all change.

I've never understood why 2nd and 3rd generation ethnic Orthodox leave the church or view it as some kind of social get togethor. I mean is Orthodoxy missing something or are these people just very lazy and could care less? When you take a look at the evangelicals they do a real good job at keeping thier youth interested in church and they have a zeal for living the christian life. The Orthodox youth should be the same if not more zealous since it's the true Church.
Why is this surprising? We are all converts- no one is 'born' Orthodox. Emperor Julian the Apostate had Orthodox Christian Parents, grandparents and Great Grandparents. Constantine Copronymos had Orthodox Christian Parents, grandparents and Great Grandparents. John Tavener- the 'hero" of adult Orthodox converts has recently stopped attending the Orthodox Church in favour of Sufism, Islam, Hinduism etc. Demas, companion of the Apostle Paul and friend of the Apostle Luke, and who saw the glory of God at work in the Apostles with his own eyes, also left the Church and returned to the world (2 Timothy 4:10). This is why we do not glorify Saints until they have fallen asleep and entered Heaven- just as we honour as victors those who have completed the marathon- not those who have merely started the race--"many are called, but few are chosen".
Rather than being surprised when people apostasise, we should be surprised when anyone manages to run the course of an Orthodox Christian life, faithful to the end, and manages to enter the Kingdom of Heaven by it's narrow gate.

George (Australia)
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« Reply #99 on: March 30, 2005, 11:15:24 AM »





I've never understood why 2nd and 3rd generation ethnic Orthodox leave the church or view it as some kind of social get togethor. I mean is Orthodoxy missing something or are these people just very lazy and could care less? When you take a look at the evangelicals they do a real good job at keeping thier youth interested in church and they have a zeal for living the christian life. The Orthodox youth should be the same if not more zealous since it's the true Church.

 
Orthodoxy missed these generations by insisting on Greek in church...and that includes even the homily on the Gospel lesson..when the language of the 2nd and 3rd gen  people had become English as well as 'announcemnents' of the week.... I remember sitting in church where it was Greek beginning to end.... along with my peers and wondering... what on earth is he talking about and why can't he explain what he did  in English... The ability to relate the Gospel lesson to the issues of today is where they lost the generation.  And the whole 'Greek school' thing is another issue....I have friends who want their kids to learn Chinese- and they establish secular community classes in the schools on weekends to do this... Why the church has to get involved in this completely, in my opinion, mixes apples( ethnic social aspects)  and oranges (the faith)... In some churches people become paying stewards just to send their kids to the Greek School..., and they never go to church... except for the festivals of course... and showing up Holy week...  so the churches continue this practice because it helps with the cash receipts....

When I married in 1985, our priest, before the ceremony began, explained everything that was to take place, for all attendants to understand... and then the ceremony was 80% English... But the language of English would even have been meaningless, without his explanation of the significance of everything....

The tradition of 'spreading the faith' and teaching 'new generations'  did not come with the other traditions of the church...
and it is a tradition that is still very 'green' in this country....

In XC, Kizzy



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« Reply #100 on: March 30, 2005, 08:50:26 PM »

I wonder if the decision of the court today to consider an emergency bid to reinsert the Terri's feeding tube has anything to do with the Pope having a nasogastric feeding tube inserted into himself today? I wonder if the "pull the tube" people are saying that the Pope should be allowed to starve to death rather than possibly be in the same situation as Terri Schiavo in a few weeks or months? I've so often heard it said, even in this thread, that a feeding tube should not have been inserted in the first place- here's their chance to 'advocate' in the case of the Pope.
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« Reply #101 on: March 30, 2005, 11:23:38 PM »

Tonights South Park is, once again, right on the money.
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« Reply #102 on: March 31, 2005, 03:45:37 AM »

Tonights South Park is, once again, right on the money.

You watch that stuff? No wonder...never mind
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« Reply #103 on: March 31, 2005, 10:33:21 AM »

Hey, I like South Park.  I don't think they were right on though, I tought it was stupid.
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« Reply #104 on: March 31, 2005, 12:19:01 PM »

Terri Schiavo dies in hospice
PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (AP) — Terri Schiavo, the severely brain-damaged woman who spent 15 years connected to a feeding tube in an epic legal and medical battle that went all the way to the White House and Congress, died Thursday, 13 days after the tube was removed. She was 41.
      Schiavo suffered severe brain damage in 1990 after her heart stopped because of a chemical imbalance.    
Getty Images

Schiavo died at the Pinellas Park hospice where she lay for years while her husband and her parents fought over her in the nation's most bitter — and most heavily litigated — right-to-die dispute. (Related video: Years in the courts)

The feud between the parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, and their son-in-law continued even after her death: The Schindlers' spiritual advisers said the couple had been at their daughter's besides minutes before the end came, but were not there at the moment of her death because Michael Schiavo did not want them in the room.

"And so his heartless cruelty continues until this very last moment," said the Rev. Frank Pavone. He added: "This is not only a death, with all the sadness that brings, but this is a killing, and for that we not only grieve that Terri has passed but we grieve that our nation has allowed such an atrocity as this and we pray that it will never happen again(Related audio: Pavone talks of final moments)

David Gibbs III, a lawyer for the Schindlers, said: "This is indeed a sad day for the nation, for the family. ... God loves Terri more than they do. She is at peace."

Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, announced the death but had no immediate comment beyond that.

A small group of activists sang religious hymns outside the hospice, raising their hands to the sky and closing their eyes.

Dawn Kozsey, 47, a musician who was among those outside Schiavo's hospice, wept. "Words cannot express the rage I feel," she said. "Is my heart broken for this? Yes."

Schiavo suffered severe brain damage in 1990 after her heart stopped because of a chemical imbalance that was believed to have been brought on by an eating disorder. Court-appointed doctors ruled she was in a persistent vegetative state, with no real consciousness or chance of recovery.

The feeding tube was removed with a judge's approval March 18 after Michael Schiavo argued that his wife told him long ago she would not want to be kept alive artificially. His in-laws disputed that, and argued that she could get better with treatment. They said she laughed, cried, responded to them and tried to talk.

During the seven-year legal battle, Florida lawmakers, Congress and President Bush tried to intervene on behalf of her parents, but state and federal courts at all levels repeatedly ruled in favor of her husband. The case focused national attention on living wills, since Schiavo left no written instructions in case she became disabled.

After the tube that supplied a nutrient solution was disconnected, protesters streamed into Pinellas Park to keep vigil outside her hospice, with many arrested as they tried to bring her food and water. The Vatican likened the removal of her feeding tube to capital punishment for an innocent woman. The Schindlers pleaded for their daughter's life, calling the removal of the tube "judicial homicide."
   
By Evan Vucci, AP
Terri Schiavo's family suffered a final setback in court on Wednesday.

An autopsy is planned, with both sides hoping it will shed more light on the extent of her brain injuries.

Gov. Jeb Bush, whose repeated attempts to get the tube reconnected also failed, said that millions of people around the state and world will be "deeply grieved" by her death but that the debate over her fate could help others grapple with end-of-life issues.

"After an extraordinarily difficult and tragic journey, Terri Schiavo is at rest," Bush said. "I remain convinced, however, that Terri's death is a window through which we can see the many issues left unresolved in our families and in our society. For that, we can be thankful for all that the life of Terri Schiavo has taught us."

President Bush, the governor's brother, was expected to speak on Schiavo's death later Thursday.

Although several right-to-die cases have been fought in the courts across the nation in recent years, none had been this public, drawn-out and bitter.

Six times, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to intervene. Schiavo's fate was debated on the floor of Congress and by President Bush, who signed an extraordinary bill March 21 that let federal judges review her case.

"In extraordinary circumstances like this, it is wise to always err on the side of life," the president said.

But federal courts refused again and again to overturn the central ruling by Pinellas County Circuit Judge George W. Greer, who said Michael Schiavo had convinced him that Terri Schiavo would not have wanted to be kept alive by artificial means.

Described by her family as a shy woman who loved animals, music and basketball, Terri Schindler grew up in Pennsylvania and battled a weight problem in her youth.

"And then when she lost all the weight, she really became quite beautiful on the outside as well. What was inside she allowed to shine out at that point," a friend, Diane Meyer, said in 2003.

She met Michael Schiavo — pronounced SHY-voh — at Bucks County Community College near Philadelphia in 1982. They wed two years later. After they moved to Florida, she worked in an insurance agency.

But recurring battles with weight led to the eating disorder that was blamed for her collapse at age 26. Doctors said she suffered severe brain damage when her heart stopped beating because of a potassium imbalance. Her brain was deprived of oxygen for 10 minutes before she was revived, doctors estimated.

Because Terri Schiavo did not leave written wishes on her care, Florida law gave preference to Michael Schiavo over her parents. But the law also recognizes parents as having crucial opinions in the care of an incapacitated person.

A court-appointed physician testified her brain damage was so severe that there was no hope she would ever have any cognitive abilities.

Still, her parents, who visited her nearly every day, reported their daughter responded to their voices. Video showing the dark-haired woman appearing to interact with her family was televised nationally. But the court-appointed doctor said the noises and facial expressions were reflexes.

Both sides accused each other of being motivated by greed over a $1 million medical malpractice award from doctors who failed to diagnose the chemical imbalance.

However, that money, which Michael Schiavo received in 1993, has all but evaporated, spent on his wife's care and the court fight. Just $40,000 to $50,000 remained as of mid-March.

Michael Schiavo's lawyers suggested the Schindlers wanted to get some of the money. And the Schindlers questioned their son-in-law's sincerity, saying he never mentioned his wife's wishes until winning the malpractice case.

The parents tried to have Michael Schiavo removed as his wife's guardian because he lives with another woman and has two children with her. Michael Schiavo refused to divorce his wife, saying he feared the Schindlers would ignore her desire to die.

Schiavo lived in her brain-damaged state longer than two other young women whose cases brought right-to-die issues to the forefront of public attention.

Karen Quinlan lived for more than a decade in a vegetative state — brought on by alcohol and drugs in 1975 when she was 21; New Jersey courts let her parents take her off a respirator a year after her injury. Nancy Cruzan, who was 25 when a 1983 car crash placed her in a vegetative state, lived nearly eight years before the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that her parents could withdraw her feeding tube.

Schiavo's feeding tube was briefly removed in 2001. It was reinserted after two days when a court intervened. In October 2003, the tube was removed again, but Gov. Jeb Bush rushed "Terri's Law" through the Legislature, allowing the state to have the feeding tube reinserted after six days. The Florida Supreme Court later ruled that law was an unconstitutional interference in the judicial system.

Nearly two weeks ago, the tube was removed for a third and final time.
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« Reply #105 on: March 31, 2005, 01:06:16 PM »

You can be arrested/prosecuted for denying food & water to your pets & livestock, but you can do it to a human being ?

Something is very wrong in & with our society.

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« Reply #106 on: March 31, 2005, 04:10:03 PM »

I had a legal question:
How far does the authority of a governor or the President reach in such cases ? Can The President vito or reverse a court decision, like the pardons usually given out at the end of any term of the president ?
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« Reply #107 on: March 31, 2005, 04:56:18 PM »

Stavro,

     Absolutely not.  In rare cases you can have certain legislative relief, however, giving the President or Governor a Veto over judicial decisions would completely invalidate checks and balances.
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« Reply #108 on: March 31, 2005, 05:02:09 PM »

Thankfully, she has passed away. Peace to her and her family.

I shudder to think of what this means for interference of government in family matters, and i am looking now for the appropriate forms that my state recommends so i dont end up in that position someday.

as Forrest Gump once said, that's all i have to say about that. Except that I agree South Park hit it on the head (yes i watch that stuff) once again. 
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« Reply #109 on: March 31, 2005, 05:04:02 PM »

I had a legal question:
How far does the authority of a governor or the President reach in such cases ? Can The President vito or reverse a court decision, like the pardons usually given out at the end of any term of the president ?

Absolutely not. In rare cases you can have certain legislative relief, however, giving the President or Governor a Veto over judicial decisions would complete invalidate checks and balances.

Well...that depends on the president and current political climate.

I seem to recal Andrew Jackson saying 'John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!' after sending troops down to oust the Cherokees in direct defiance of the Supreme Court's decision in Worcester vs. Georgia Wink
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« Reply #110 on: March 31, 2005, 05:18:27 PM »

Thanks for the valuable opinions and replies. I remember also that President Bush (41st) cancelled the verdict for Rodney King's abuse case and a retrial was ordered to contain the mass anger of the african american society towards what seemed as a wrong decision by the jury. Of course, it should not be used in an arbitrary fashion, but I believe this case was bigger than a life of an individual, as precious as it is (was ). It will set a trend of similar cases and the culture of death will prevail.

"They have taken the way of Cain;" (Jude 11) .......
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« Reply #111 on: April 15, 2005, 04:21:27 PM »

This is my Terri Shiavo op-ed:

A life is a terrible thing to waste. The human person, endowed with value and purpose by a benevolent Creator, deserves the right to live. If we do not have the courage to take care of the terminally ill and empathize with their struggle, but snuff out their being as a false sign of mercy, we only show our own cowardice as human beings.

As a false sign of mercy, the Florida judicial system snuffed out the life of Terri Schiavo. One cannot help but wonder why. Bob and Mary Schindler, Terri’s own parents, desperately fought to have her feeding tube re-inserted. Michael Schiavo, an allegedly abusive man, given precedent over the victim’s own parents, insisted that she “die with dignity”.

This woman was not brain dead. She did not need a heart respirator. She was able to breathe on her own. She could smile, frown, and engage visitors and family members. Medical observations showed her to be cognitive and alert. Terri only needed artificial nourishment to stay alive and yet not even this could be tolerated.

The doctors of the Northside Humana emergency room never actually diagnosed her as a heart attack victim, given that her blood enzymes were not elevated; a symptom distinctive in all heart attack victims. In preparation for the October 2002, trial to save Terri’s life, a review of her ER records revealed that she had a "rigid neck" when admitted to the hospital; a characteristic of attempted strangulation.

Michael Baden, a forensic pathologist, examined Terri’s bone scan and concluded that her injuries were not consistent with a heart attack, but with severe trauma possibly caused by beating. This scan revealed that she had fractured ribs, damage to her pelvic area, LI vertebrae, spine, both knees and both ankles, a broken femur, and a broken back. The radiologist who conducted the scan clearly noted: "This patient has a history of trauma".

The dispassionate observer would conclude that Terri collapsed and fell into unconsciousness, not from a bulimia-related heart attack, but from terrible abuse. Terri’s family observed “black and blue marks” on her body months before the incident, possibly inflicted by her controlling husband. Terri had stated to friends and family members that she desired to divorce Michael Schiavo just prior to sustaining injuries. Since then, Michael Schiavo has given three conflicting accounts of how he found her unconscious.

After the incident, Michael had Terri’s personal jewelry re-fabricated into a ring for himself. When Michael moved in with a woman to have an adulterous relationship, he had Terri’s beloved cats euthanized. Michael prevented Terri from undergoing a barium swallow test, which would have determined her ability consume foods through the mouth. If Terri had been allowed to undergo the procedure, perhaps the feeding tube would not have been necessary in the first place.

Against the will of her parents and the Roman Catholic Church which she belonged, Michael Schiavo had Terri’s body cremated; the perfect cover to avoid an autopsy.

Justice is a terrible thing to neglect. Terri Schaivo, endowed with value and purpose by her Creator, deserved the right to live. If we are to honor the memory of Terri Schiavo, a criminal investigation of her husband must be accomplished. Only then will we know the truth and will Terri be able to rest in peace.

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.

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He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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