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Author Topic: Vagante Bishops  (Read 2963 times) Average Rating: 0
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Elisha
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« on: March 15, 2005, 05:13:06 PM »

There is a monograph published by St.Hilarions monastery about the Amalfion (the Western Rite monastery that was on Mt.Athos)

What is St. Hilarion's Monastery?  Does Amalfion still exist?  More details please - this sounds interesting.
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« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2005, 12:01:45 AM »

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What is St. Hilarion's Monastery?

They're a vagante, formerly Western Rite monastery located in Austin. Fr. Aidan Keller, who has historically been fairly active online, was formerly attached there, though last I heard he'd been received into the ROCA. Their site is www.odox.net -- they used to have a whole bunch of excellent liturgical material, but it seems to be gone now with their latest site redesign.

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  Does Amalfion still exist?

Not to my knowledge, alas.
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2005, 02:17:25 AM »



They're a vagante, formerly Western Rite monastery located in Austin. Fr. Aidan Keller, who has historically been fairly active online, was formerly attached there, though last I heard he'd been received into the ROCA. Their site is www.odox.net -- they used to have a whole bunch of excellent liturgical material, but it seems to be gone now with their latest site redesign.



Not to my knowledge, alas.

Very interesting.  When did Amalfion die (for lack of a better term immediately coming to mind)?
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2005, 01:46:57 PM »

What is/was amalfion?
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2005, 01:55:51 PM »

Amalfion was a Latin Catholic Benedictine Rule Monastery on Mt. Athos.  It was abandoned in 1287.  Its ruins still stand on Athos.

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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2005, 02:24:48 PM »

Alas I have forgotten to bring the monograph with me again. My computer at home has been getting fixed and so I have been using the computers at college. But Amalfion was started in the tenth century at the same time as Great Lavra and St.Athanasios the Hagiorite.



They're a vagante, formerly Western Rite monastery located in Austin. Fr. Aidan Keller, who has historically been fairly active online, was formerly attached there, though last I heard he'd been received into the ROCA. Their site is www.odox.net -- they used to have a whole bunch of excellent liturgical material, but it seems to be gone now with their latest site redesign.



Not to my knowledge, alas.

Beayf why the name calling? St.Hilarions is a very nice monastery. Just because you may not like the Milan Synod does not mean you have to bash them and how they tried to revive the Orthodox West.
They still have a nice page filled with icons of western saints http://www.odox.net/Icons-Western-Saints.htm
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« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2005, 05:00:41 PM »


Beayf why the name calling? St.Hilarions is a very nice monastery. Just because you may not like the Milan Synod does not mean you have to bash them and how they tried to revive the Orthodox West.
They still have a nice page filled with icons of western saints http://www.odox.net/Icons-Western-Saints.htm

"Vagante" is not name-calling or bashing but a statement that a group is not affiliated with/in communion with etc a canonical church.  Serge explained it and maybe others did as well.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php/topic,2256.0.html

http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/Who.htm

Ebor
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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2005, 08:39:32 PM »



"Vagante" is not name-calling or bashing but a statement that a group is not affiliated with/in communion with etc a canonical church. Serge explained it and maybe others did as well.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php/topic,2256.0.html

http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/Who.htm

Ebor

Ditto. I think he called a spade a spade...and w/o any name calling. If (St. Hil's) was really started in the 900s, but abandoned in 1287, then it doesn't sound like much history (other than the ruins) have survived.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2005, 08:43:00 PM by Elisha » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2005, 08:50:35 PM »

Ebor, St. "Hil's" is the group we call vagrante, not the Amalfion monastery that started in the 900's.
If I'm not mistaken.
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« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2005, 08:58:12 PM »

Ebor, St. "Hil's" is the group we call vagrante, not the Amalfion monastery that started in the 900's.
If I'm not mistaken.


Ummmm, that was Elisha who thought that St. "Hil's" was the 900's monastary. 

Ebor
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« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2005, 09:04:20 PM »

 Embarrassed  sorry, I always get something wrong in my post, extra the words, mispellings...
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« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2005, 10:54:14 PM »




Ummmm, that was Elisha who thought that St. "Hil's" was the 900's monastary.

Ebor

Oh yea, I think I got the two confused.  Nevermind.
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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2005, 02:42:39 PM »

Just a comment from reading above
Beayf is using the technical term V-A-G-A-N-T-E
there is no R in it (post # Cool
he is NOT calling them vagRantes - like squatters in vacant buildings!
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 01:41:06 PM by BrotherAiden » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2005, 05:56:58 PM »

Calling the Milan Synod Vagante is name-calling. Why do they need to be called vagante? Who decides whether they are canonical in this case? Fr.Seraphim of Platina who I am sure we have all heard of was a member of ROCOR when it was called uncanonical and vagante. To this day only the Serbian Patriarchate recognizes ROCOR. Does that make ROCOR vagante? Would it offend a member of ROCOR if they were called that?
While I whole-heartedly agree that there are many vagante jurisdictions out there, it is usually obvious, lumping the Milan Synod in as one of them OR saying that we decide who is canonical when it really is a sticky situation seems inappropriate. The Milan Synod http://www.onr.com/user/milan/ was originally a part of the Greek Old Calendar Church or Florinite Synod or G.O.C. which presently is headed by Archbishop Chrysostomos II http://www.thegreekorthodoxchurch.com/metropolis/index_2.php . The Milan Synod received a Tomos of Autonomy in 1984. To simply say, "Well they are vagante because of their current situation," hardly seems fair. ROCOR was in a similar situation at one time.
I think you should keep in mind some of the forum members belong to the GOC and other jurisdictions that some of you would label vagante.
I simply think Beayf should have just let people know that the Milan Synod is currently not in communion with mainstream Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2005, 06:21:55 PM »

Vagante is generally used to refer to those Churches who are out of communion with Orthodoxy (for me, at least, that is to say out of communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople). This notion of 'partial communion' because of having similar customs is not part of the Patristic understanding of Ecclesia. If one is offended by the term, perhaps they should be more offended by the posistion of the said ecclesiastical body in relation to the Church (but then again, I've never liked the avoiding of certain terms for 'political correctness').
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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2005, 07:51:56 PM »


I simply think Beayf should have just let people know that the Milan Synod is currently not in communion with mainstream Orthodoxy.

...which is what vagante means (a case could be made for ROCOR, but many would say not since they are in communion with the SP & JP).  Everyone else I would say is vagante - even if it is one of those Greek Old Calendarist or whatever groups.  They are like the Hertz commercial:  "Are they cannonical?  Uhhhh....not exactly."  Try to be more tactful and less sensitive.
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2005, 08:49:45 PM »

I think there is some confusion here between vagante and uncanonical.  An uncanonical group (to use a neutral term) can be a break-away from a canonical church.  Vagante on the other hand is an invention.  There was a book about in the 60s, called Bishops at Large.  The vagante groups, named after a certain Msgr (bogus) Vagante, were those people who wanted to invent their own church.  A vagante group usually has an exallted title for its leader. Often the group only consists of the leader!  So you have Sid Smith, a taxi driver from Sheffield, who in his private fantasy world is the Protosingular of Glastonbury.  I once met the Prior of Glastonbury. He was a tramp who used to wander around religious houses, dressed as a Benedictine monk.  I don't think the Milan Synod can be called vagante, but its canonicity is suspect, if not fraudalent.



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« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2005, 10:58:49 PM »

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Calling the Milan Synod Vagante is name-calling. Why do they need to be called vagante? Who decides whether they are canonical in this case?

The fact that they are not in communion with any legitimate Orthodox church is a big giveaway. Not only that, but they recently petitioned to joint the non-Chacedonians (and were rejected) -- that fact alone does not speak well of their Orthodoxy.

Quote
Fr.Seraphim of Platina who I am sure we have all heard of was a member of ROCOR when it was called uncanonical and vagante. To this day only the Serbian Patriarchate recognizes ROCOR.

You're a bit behind the times. The Moscow Patriarchate has publicly stated that ROCOR is indeed a legitimate if irregular church, and the path to reunion is well on its way.

Quote
Does that make ROCOR vagante? Would it offend a member of ROCOR if they were called that?

I'm a member of ROCOR, and yes, it would. But here's the thing: my priest may only be allowed, by current regulations, to concelebrate with the Serbian priests in town. However, us laity are perfectly free to commune at other Orthodox churches, and vice-versa (and we do frequently have many visitors, both from the OCA and from the Antiochians, who commune at my church). My priest is a member of the Houston clergy association, and they have held meetings at my church. We frequently have an Antiochian priest who is between parish assignments visit for liturgies. Another priest who is attached to my parish has started a mission up in College Station, which is well-attended by Orthodox of all jurisdictions. The only thing that is lacking in ROCOR's full integration into the Orthodox community here is the formal restoration of communion at the hierarchial level -- at the local level, it's already happened.

I don't think the same is true for the Milan Synod. (And if the preceding hasn't convinced you, just consider that they are Rdr. Constantine Wright's jurisdiction-du-jour. 'Nuff said :p )
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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2005, 12:05:08 AM »

The vagante movement and the Old Calendar movement are different. Different origins, different aims, different realities.

Calling Old Calendarists "vagante" is like calling Polynesian people "blacks." "But they have dark skin, too!" "Too bad, they're not black, they're Polynesian!"

The Milan Synod started off Old Calendarist but may in fact be moving towards vaganteism by virtue of the people they are picking up and the things they are doing.  Just like you can move "towards" so-called canonical Orthodoxy, you can drift away as well.

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« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2005, 11:19:57 AM »

Thank you Anastasios!

Also I would like to clarify that I should have said the Serbian Patriarchate and the Jerusalem Patriarchate recognizes ROCOR.

Quote
You're a bit behind the times. The Moscow Patriarchate has publicly stated that ROCOR is indeed a legitimate if irregular church, and the path to reunion is well on its way.

Beayf you are missing my point entirely. Fr.Seraphim belonged to ROCOR when it was called uncanonical or vagante. Fr.Seraphim died in 1982. Who knows if he would have stayed with ROCOR? The point is that he was a member of ROCOR when it was in a situation similar to other Old Calendarist groups and at a time when ROCOR had several members who were very opposed to communion with world Orthodoxy.
Also does ROCOR's move towards communion with the MP suddenly validate everything that happened before. Can we say,"Well ROCOR's Orthodox now so I guess they had Grace even when they were just another uncanonical group that helped consecrate bishops for the Greek Old Calendarists?" And ROCOR is still in communion with the Greek Synod in Resistance and the True Orthodox Churches of Romania and Bulgaria.

While I agree that I was alarmed at the recent dialogue between the Milan Synod and the Non-Chalcedonians, there is pictures of it on their Italian website, I still think it is unfair to call them vagante just yet. What if in twenty years the Milan Synod is accepted into communion with mainstream Orthodoxy? Does that somehow put Grace in the Mysteries all the years before?
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2005, 12:06:22 PM »

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Fr.Seraphim belonged to ROCOR when it was called uncanonical or vagante. Fr.Seraphim died in 1982. Who knows if he would have stayed with ROCOR?

I suspect he would have. And just because ROCOR was called uncanonical and vagante by some people doesn't mean it was.

Quote
Also does ROCOR's move towards communion with the MP suddenly validate everything that happened before. Can we say,"Well ROCOR's Orthodox now so I guess they had Grace even when they were just another uncanonical group that helped consecrate bishops for the Greek Old Calendarists?"

Except ROCOR never broke communion with Serbia, and they were never intended to be a permanent body or a "one true super-Orthodox church" -- they were a temporary organization to minister to the Russian exiles while the MP was under Soviet repression.

Quote
What if in twenty years the Milan Synod is accepted into communion with mainstream Orthodoxy? Does that somehow put Grace in the Mysteries all the years before?

Depends on what the bishops decide -- it would be no different than any other non-Orthodox body being corporately received into Orthodoxy.
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