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Author Topic: Matthew 23:35 against the second deuterocanon books  (Read 560 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 14, 2014, 05:54:35 PM »

Hi.

Usually this verse of the Gospel of Matthew used as prove that The Lord Jesus Christ ignored the second deuterocanon books.

The verse says

Matthew 23:35 " 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "

It is very well known that the story of murdering Zechariah written in the last book of the Hebrew Bible. So it seems that Jesus counted from the beginning to the end of the Hebrew Bible and ignoring other such as second deuterocanon books.

What is the Orthodox and also the Catholic answer for such claim ?

Peace.

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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2014, 06:01:26 PM »

Hmm... I don't get this claim at all. Zechariah as in the prophet Zechariah? He isn't the last book in the Hebrew Bible in either Protestant or Jewish ordering.

According to Jewish ordering the Book of Chronicles is last, and Protestants the Book of Malachi.

John 10:22-23 talks about Hanukkah, which is only included in 1 Maccabees. Also Jude 14-15 quotes the Book of Enoch, not in any Bible today except the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 06:25:05 PM »

[Mispost]
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« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2014, 06:46:26 PM »

Hi.

Usually this verse of the Gospel of Matthew used as prove that The Lord Jesus Christ ignored the second deuterocanon books.

The verse says

Matthew 23:35 " 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "

It is very well known that the story of murdering Zechariah written in the last book of the Hebrew Bible. So it seems that Jesus counted from the beginning to the end of the Hebrew Bible and ignoring other such as second deuterocanon books.

What is the Orthodox and also the Catholic answer for such claim ?

Peace.

PS: I may not reply to any comment unless it is necessary Smiley

This argument is essentially an argument from silence. Arguments from silence are hardly ever convincing, for they almost always depend upon the speculative presumption that we know someone's mind when there's no evidence at all that we really do.
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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2014, 06:55:40 PM »

I thought you had your answers and were all done with us?
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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2014, 06:56:04 PM »

Hmm... I don't get this claim at all. Zechariah as in the prophet Zechariah? He isn't the last book in the Hebrew Bible in either Protestant or Jewish ordering.

According to Jewish ordering the Book of Chronicles is last, and Protestants the Book of Malachi.

John 10:22-23 talks about Hanukkah, which is only included in 1 Maccabees. Also Jude 14-15 quotes the Book of Enoch, not in any Bible today except the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

In order of the Books, yes, Malachi is the last book, however the last book written in Hebrew is the Book of Chronicles, so when Jesus Christ said what he said, he finished it with the last book in the Hebrew Bible. ignoring any other book written after it.


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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2014, 07:00:58 PM »

I'm quoting from the Protestant website what they exactly said, so you may get the idea more clearly.

2.  Jesus implicitly rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture by referring to the entire accepted Jewish Canon of Scripture, “From the blood of Abel [Gen. 4:8] to the blood of Zechariah [2 Chron. 24:20], who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation (Lk. 11:51; cf. Mt. 23:35).”

Abel was the first martyr in the Old Testament from the book of Genesis, while Zechariah was the last martyr in the book of Chronicles.  In the Hebrew Canon, the first book was Genesis and the last book was Chronicles.  They contained all of the same books as the standard 39 books accepted by Protestants today, but they were just arranged differently.  For example, all of the 12 minor prophets (Hosea through Malachi) were contained in one book.  This is why there are only 24 books in the Hebrew Bible today.  By Jesus referring to Abel and Zachariah, He was canvassing the entire Canon of the Hebrew Scriptures which included the same 39 books as Protestants accept today.  Therefore, Jesus implicitly rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture.
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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2014, 07:08:05 PM »

My answer would be: that's interesting. What's next? Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2014, 07:14:26 PM »

Hmm... I don't get this claim at all. Zechariah as in the prophet Zechariah? He isn't the last book in the Hebrew Bible in either Protestant or Jewish ordering.

According to Jewish ordering the Book of Chronicles is last, and Protestants the Book of Malachi.

John 10:22-23 talks about Hanukkah, which is only included in 1 Maccabees. Also Jude 14-15 quotes the Book of Enoch, not in any Bible today except the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

In order of the Books, yes, Malachi is the last book, however the last book written in Hebrew is the Book of Chronicles, so when Jesus Christ said what he said, he finished it with the last book in the Hebrew Bible. ignoring any other book written after it.




Hmm... is there a Zechariah son of Berekiah in Chronicles?
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« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2014, 07:15:06 PM »

I'm quoting from the Protestant website what they exactly said, so you may get the idea more clearly.

2.  Jesus implicitly rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture by referring to the entire accepted Jewish Canon of Scripture, “From the blood of Abel [Gen. 4:8] to the blood of Zechariah [2 Chron. 24:20], who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation (Lk. 11:51; cf. Mt. 23:35).”

Abel was the first martyr in the Old Testament from the book of Genesis, while Zechariah was the last martyr in the book of Chronicles.  In the Hebrew Canon, the first book was Genesis and the last book was Chronicles.  They contained all of the same books as the standard 39 books accepted by Protestants today, but they were just arranged differently.  For example, all of the 12 minor prophets (Hosea through Malachi) were contained in one book.  This is why there are only 24 books in the Hebrew Bible today.  By Jesus referring to Abel and Zachariah, He was canvassing the entire Canon of the Hebrew Scriptures which included the same 39 books as Protestants accept today.  Therefore, Jesus implicitly rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture.

This greater clarity does not negate that the argument made is still fundamentally an argument from silence. (This argument presumes to know that Jesus intended to canvas only the Hebrew canon of the Scriptures, a presumption of intent for which there is no evidence.)
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« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2014, 07:25:39 PM »

Hmm... I don't get this claim at all. Zechariah as in the prophet Zechariah? He isn't the last book in the Hebrew Bible in either Protestant or Jewish ordering.

According to Jewish ordering the Book of Chronicles is last, and Protestants the Book of Malachi.

John 10:22-23 talks about Hanukkah, which is only included in 1 Maccabees. Also Jude 14-15 quotes the Book of Enoch, not in any Bible today except the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

In order of the Books, yes, Malachi is the last book, however the last book written in Hebrew is the Book of Chronicles, so when Jesus Christ said what he said, he finished it with the last book in the Hebrew Bible. ignoring any other book written after it.




Hmm... is there a Zechariah son of Berekiah in Chronicles?


(2 Chronicles 24:20). He is also known as Zechariah ben Jehoiada.
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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2014, 07:32:31 PM »

Hmm... I don't get this claim at all. Zechariah as in the prophet Zechariah? He isn't the last book in the Hebrew Bible in either Protestant or Jewish ordering.

According to Jewish ordering the Book of Chronicles is last, and Protestants the Book of Malachi.

John 10:22-23 talks about Hanukkah, which is only included in 1 Maccabees. Also Jude 14-15 quotes the Book of Enoch, not in any Bible today except the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

In order of the Books, yes, Malachi is the last book, however the last book written in Hebrew is the Book of Chronicles, so when Jesus Christ said what he said, he finished it with the last book in the Hebrew Bible. ignoring any other book written after it.




Hmm... is there a Zechariah son of Berekiah in Chronicles?


(2 Chronicles 24:20). He is also known as Zechariah ben Jehoiada.

I see. Still, that doesn't prove anything about the canon of Scripture. Since the Deuterocanon could have been included regardless. The Bible didn't even exist during the time of Christ, so no ordering of the books would've existed. And the Qumran scrolls prove that the Deuterocanon were in use in the Palestinian Jewish community, not just the Alexandrian one.
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« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2014, 07:35:35 PM »

Hmm... I don't get this claim at all. Zechariah as in the prophet Zechariah? He isn't the last book in the Hebrew Bible in either Protestant or Jewish ordering.

According to Jewish ordering the Book of Chronicles is last, and Protestants the Book of Malachi.

John 10:22-23 talks about Hanukkah, which is only included in 1 Maccabees. Also Jude 14-15 quotes the Book of Enoch, not in any Bible today except the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

In order of the Books, yes, Malachi is the last book, however the last book written in Hebrew is the Book of Chronicles, so when Jesus Christ said what he said, he finished it with the last book in the Hebrew Bible. ignoring any other book written after it.




Hmm... is there a Zechariah son of Berekiah in Chronicles?


(2 Chronicles 24:20). He is also known as Zechariah ben Jehoiada.

I see. Still, that doesn't prove anything about the canon of Scripture. Since the Deuterocanon could have been included regardless. The Bible didn't even exist during the time of Christ. And the Qumran scrolls prove that the Deuterocanon were in use in the Palestinian Jewish community, not just the Alexandrian one.

The Bible didn't even exist during the time of Christ!! Than what was Jesus reading of when he was in the Temple on Saturdays ?? Was it a note book or something ?! Maybe there was no official canon for the Bible but there was a Bible.
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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2014, 07:44:17 PM »

Hmm... is there a Zechariah son of Berekiah in Chronicles?

(2 Chronicles 24:20). He is also known as Zechariah ben Jehoiada.

Apparently there are over 2 dozen guys named Zechariah in the Old Testament. Why do you think they are the same?
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2014, 07:51:29 PM »

Hmm... is there a Zechariah son of Berekiah in Chronicles?

(2 Chronicles 24:20). He is also known as Zechariah ben Jehoiada.

Apparently there are over 2 dozen guys named Zechariah in the Old Testament. Why do you think they are the same?

There is only one Zechariah was killed in the Temple and he is very well known.

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« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2014, 08:05:44 PM »

Hmm... I don't get this claim at all. Zechariah as in the prophet Zechariah? He isn't the last book in the Hebrew Bible in either Protestant or Jewish ordering.

According to Jewish ordering the Book of Chronicles is last, and Protestants the Book of Malachi.

John 10:22-23 talks about Hanukkah, which is only included in 1 Maccabees. Also Jude 14-15 quotes the Book of Enoch, not in any Bible today except the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

In order of the Books, yes, Malachi is the last book, however the last book written in Hebrew is the Book of Chronicles, so when Jesus Christ said what he said, he finished it with the last book in the Hebrew Bible. ignoring any other book written after it.




Hmm... is there a Zechariah son of Berekiah in Chronicles?


(2 Chronicles 24:20). He is also known as Zechariah ben Jehoiada.

I see. Still, that doesn't prove anything about the canon of Scripture. Since the Deuterocanon could have been included regardless. The Bible didn't even exist during the time of Christ, so no ordering of the books would've existed.
xOrthodox4Christx, please don't be so quick to post such misleading statements as this. Anyone who knows his stuff knows that the Scriptures existed before Jesus began His ministry.
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« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2014, 08:17:08 PM »

Identifying the Zechariah is the tricky part.   When I was a Protestant, I heard 2 possibilities:
1.  The Zechariah in 2 Chronicles 24:20
2.  The prophet  Zechariah.

After becoming Orthodox, I learned there was a third possibility:

3.  I once read in the Protoevangelium of James that Zechariah the Father of John the Baptist was killed.

   So we have three to choose from.  I am not certain which one.  Undecided
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« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2014, 08:21:10 PM »

Identifying the Zechariah is the tricky part.   When I was a Protestant, I heard 2 possibilities:
1.  The Zechariah in 2 Chronicles 24:20
2.  The prophet  Zechariah.

After becoming Orthodox, I learned there was a third possibility:

3.  I once read in the Protoevangelium of James that Zechariah the Father of John the Baptist was killed.

   So we have three to choose from.  I am not certain which one.  Undecided

The Father of John the Baptist was killed ?! That is very interesting,  as far as I know John's Father was also a Priest in the Temple. so he might be the one that was meant, however is there any other evidence for such claim ? Why would John's Father get killed ?
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« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2014, 08:29:46 PM »

Apparently there are over 2 dozen guys named Zechariah in the Old Testament. Why do you think they are the same?

There is only one Zechariah was killed in the Temple and he is very well known.

But where does the Scripture say that it was the same Zechariah? Is there some evidence behind what you are claiming other than an extra-biblical assumption? "Very well known" because of what evidence?
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2014, 08:35:47 PM »

Apparently there are over 2 dozen guys named Zechariah in the Old Testament. Why do you think they are the same?

There is only one Zechariah was killed in the Temple and he is very well known.

But where does the Scripture say that it was the same Zechariah? Is there some evidence behind what you are claiming other than an extra-biblical assumption? "Very well known" because of what evidence?

I'm NOT claiming anything. If you look to one of my replies above, you will see that I'm open to another possibilities. But since I was Christian until now I thought that Zechariah that Jesus meant was the one was killed in the Old Testament. Now I find that there are other option, so I'm asking, why John's Father was killed ? What did he do to be killed for ? We know why that Zechariah was killed, but why John's father ?

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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2014, 08:39:58 PM »

I'm NOT claiming anything. If you look to one of my replies above, you will see that I'm open to another possibilities. But since I was Christian until now I thought that Zechariah that Jesus meant was the one was killed in the Old Testament. Now I find that there are other option, so I'm asking, why John's Father was killed ? What did he do to be killed for ? We know why that Zechariah was killed, but why John's father ?

So you are not insisting that there is only one Zechariah was killed in the Temple and he is very well known?
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2014, 08:44:38 PM »

I'm NOT claiming anything. If you look to one of my replies above, you will see that I'm open to another possibilities. But since I was Christian until now I thought that Zechariah that Jesus meant was the one was killed in the Old Testament. Now I find that there are other option, so I'm asking, why John's Father was killed ? What did he do to be killed for ? We know why that Zechariah was killed, but why John's father ?

So you are not insisting that there is only one Zechariah was killed in the Temple and he is very well known?

That was before posting this thread, now however when one of the members here told me that there is another choice, I'm very excited to know about it. Because it may be right, as John's Father was called Zechariah and there is chance that he was killed in the Temple, but why ? Why was he killed ? This is the question.
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2014, 08:48:56 PM »

Here is why Righteous Zachariah was murdered:

When King Herod heard from the Magi about the birth of the Messiah, he decided to kill all the infants up to two years old at Bethlehem and the surrounding area, hoping that the new-born Messiah would be among them.

Herod knew about John’s unusual birth and he wanted to kill him, fearing that he was the foretold King of the Jews. But Elizabeth hid herself and the infant in the hills. The murderers searched everywhere for John. Elizabeth, when she saw her pursuers, began to implore God for their safety, and immediately the hill opened up and concealed her and the infant from their pursuers.

In these tragic days St Zachariah was taking his turn at the services in the Temple. Soldiers sent by Herod tried in vain to learn from him the whereabouts of his son. Then, by command of Herod, they murdered this holy prophet, having stabbed him between the temple and the altar (MT 23: 35). Elizabeth died forty days after her husband, and St John, preserved by the Lord, dwelt in the wilderness until the day of his appearance to the nation of Israel.


Source: http://oca.org/saints/lives/2014/09/05/102502-prophet-zachariah-the-father-of-st-john-the-baptist
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2014, 08:58:33 PM »

Hi.

Usually this verse of the Gospel of Matthew used as prove that The Lord Jesus Christ ignored the second deuterocanon books.

The verse says

Matthew 23:35 " 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "

It is very well known that the story of murdering Zechariah written in the last book of the Hebrew Bible. So it seems that Jesus counted from the beginning to the end of the Hebrew Bible and ignoring other such as second deuterocanon books.

What is the Orthodox and also the Catholic answer for such claim ?

Peace.

PS: I may not reply to any comment unless it is necessary Smiley


I think some scholars question if that Zechariah is the same one who wrote the book?

Anyway it's a weird claim. Jesus said that they get all the blood up to that prophet. So there  are no more prophets killed? John the Baptist?

What about times the deuterocanon is quoted in the NT?
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« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2014, 09:04:25 PM »

Here is why Righteous Zachariah was murdered:

When King Herod heard from the Magi about the birth of the Messiah, he decided to kill all the infants up to two years old at Bethlehem and the surrounding area, hoping that the new-born Messiah would be among them.

Herod knew about John’s unusual birth and he wanted to kill him, fearing that he was the foretold King of the Jews. But Elizabeth hid herself and the infant in the hills. The murderers searched everywhere for John. Elizabeth, when she saw her pursuers, began to implore God for their safety, and immediately the hill opened up and concealed her and the infant from their pursuers.

In these tragic days St Zachariah was taking his turn at the services in the Temple. Soldiers sent by Herod tried in vain to learn from him the whereabouts of his son. Then, by command of Herod, they murdered this holy prophet, having stabbed him between the temple and the altar (MT 23: 35). Elizabeth died forty days after her husband, and St John, preserved by the Lord, dwelt in the wilderness until the day of his appearance to the nation of Israel.


Source: http://oca.org/saints/lives/2014/09/05/102502-prophet-zachariah-the-father-of-st-john-the-baptist


Thank you  Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2014, 09:08:45 PM »

Hmm... I don't get this claim at all. Zechariah as in the prophet Zechariah? He isn't the last book in the Hebrew Bible in either Protestant or Jewish ordering.

According to Jewish ordering the Book of Chronicles is last, and Protestants the Book of Malachi.

John 10:22-23 talks about Hanukkah, which is only included in 1 Maccabees. Also Jude 14-15 quotes the Book of Enoch, not in any Bible today except the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

In order of the Books, yes, Malachi is the last book, however the last book written in Hebrew is the Book of Chronicles, so when Jesus Christ said what he said, he finished it with the last book in the Hebrew Bible. ignoring any other book written after it.




Hmm... is there a Zechariah son of Berekiah in Chronicles?


(2 Chronicles 24:20). He is also known as Zechariah ben Jehoiada.

I see. Still, that doesn't prove anything about the canon of Scripture. Since the Deuterocanon could have been included regardless. The Bible didn't even exist during the time of Christ, so no ordering of the books would've existed.
xOrthodox4Christx, please don't be so quick to post such misleading statements as this. Anyone who knows his stuff knows that the Scriptures existed before Jesus began His ministry.
Quote from: Raylight
The Bible didn't even exist during the time of Christ!! Than what was Jesus reading of when he was in the Temple on Saturdays ?? Was it a note book or something ?! Maybe there was no official canon for the Bible but there was a Bible.
The Scriptures existed, not the Bible. The Bible as a single volume did not exist. Therefore, the books were not in any particular and identifiable order neither were they all compiled together. They were separate books used in separate situations. The Qumran texts show this to be a reality.

The Bible, which is a single book which compiled all the Sacred writings didn't exist in the first century. The writings themselves did, but not the concept of a 'Bible.'

The Haftarah readings that Christ would have read would have been from Torah scrolls not a book called "The Holy Bible".
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« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2014, 09:09:49 PM »

Guys, I do not have that big of problem with the second deuterocanon books. I'm asking these questions to find their answers. Or should I just keep them in my head unanswered. So, yes I might seem like I'm against these books, But that just to get to the point.

For example, there is the book of Wisdom, which I will never reject, because Wisdom 2 contains a very very clear prophecy about Jesus's death and what the leaders would say to him when he was on the cross. So the book of Wisdom which rejected by Protestants, I accept it as inspired book.

Also I know that these books were accepted by the council that accepted the NT books, so I can't accept this and reject that, as I believe that the Holy Spirit worked on that council and guided them to decide which books are inspired and which aren't.

Thank you all, the problem is solved Smiley

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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2014, 10:54:13 PM »

Hmm... I don't get this claim at all. Zechariah as in the prophet Zechariah? He isn't the last book in the Hebrew Bible in either Protestant or Jewish ordering.

According to Jewish ordering the Book of Chronicles is last, and Protestants the Book of Malachi.

John 10:22-23 talks about Hanukkah, which is only included in 1 Maccabees. Also Jude 14-15 quotes the Book of Enoch, not in any Bible today except the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

In order of the Books, yes, Malachi is the last book, however the last book written in Hebrew is the Book of Chronicles, so when Jesus Christ said what he said, he finished it with the last book in the Hebrew Bible. ignoring any other book written after it.




Hmm... is there a Zechariah son of Berekiah in Chronicles?


(2 Chronicles 24:20). He is also known as Zechariah ben Jehoiada.

I see. Still, that doesn't prove anything about the canon of Scripture. Since the Deuterocanon could have been included regardless. The Bible didn't even exist during the time of Christ, so no ordering of the books would've existed.
xOrthodox4Christx, please don't be so quick to post such misleading statements as this. Anyone who knows his stuff knows that the Scriptures existed before Jesus began His ministry.
Quote from: Raylight
The Bible didn't even exist during the time of Christ!! Than what was Jesus reading of when he was in the Temple on Saturdays ?? Was it a note book or something ?! Maybe there was no official canon for the Bible but there was a Bible.
The Scriptures existed, not the Bible. The Bible as a single volume did not exist. Therefore, the books were not in any particular and identifiable order neither were they all compiled together. They were separate books used in separate situations. The Qumran texts show this to be a reality.

The Bible, which is a single book which compiled all the Sacred writings didn't exist in the first century. The writings themselves did, but not the concept of a 'Bible.'

The Haftarah readings that Christ would have read would have been from Torah scrolls not a book called "The Holy Bible".
And yet, without the proper explanation, it can be very confusing and even misleading to say simply that the Bible didn't exist during the time of Christ.
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