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Offline andrewlya

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About Kaaba
« on: February 13, 2014, 04:13:56 PM »
Hi,
what is a historical take on the Kaaba in Mecca? Muslims say that Kaaba The Kaaba that was constructed by Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail.

What do we, as Orthodox, know about this allegation?
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

I pray to God to guide me to the right path.

Offline age234

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2014, 04:21:45 PM »
St. John of Damascus has this to say:

Quote
They furthermore accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed, but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabár. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

Based on this, we would question the assertion that Abraham built it, and we would say it has ties to pre-Islamic Arab paganism.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 04:23:24 PM by age234 »

Offline andrewlya

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2014, 04:27:42 PM »
Oh,thank you that's interesting. Also, they worship towards Kaabah as if God lives there, but God is everywhere around us...
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

I pray to God to guide me to the right path.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2014, 04:32:58 PM »
Hi,
what is a historical take on the Kaaba in Mecca? Muslims say that Kaaba The Kaaba that was constructed by Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail.

What do we, as Orthodox, know about this allegation?

The black stone is a meteorite that Muslims venerate.
"Your children shall become the head, but you... will become the tail of the Church; therefore your judges will be those who have always preserved the Catholic Faith... they will be the Orthodox and true Catholics since they have never accepted heretics... but have remained zealous for the True Faith." (Western Bishops' Response to Pope Vigilius)

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2014, 04:34:44 PM »
St. John of Damascus has this to say:

Quote
They furthermore accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed, but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabár. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

Based on this, we would question the assertion that Abraham built it, and we would say it has ties to pre-Islamic Arab paganism.

The same guy I mentioned in another thread, al-Tabari came up with the idea that Abraham lived in Mecca and made the Kaaba. It's not in the Qur'an... that I know of.
"Your children shall become the head, but you... will become the tail of the Church; therefore your judges will be those who have always preserved the Catholic Faith... they will be the Orthodox and true Catholics since they have never accepted heretics... but have remained zealous for the True Faith." (Western Bishops' Response to Pope Vigilius)

Offline andrewlya

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2014, 04:35:34 PM »
Hi,
what is a historical take on the Kaaba in Mecca? Muslims say that Kaaba The Kaaba that was constructed by Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail.

What do we, as Orthodox, know about this allegation?

The black stone is a meteorite that Muslims venerate.
Dont they call it the House of God?
They call us pagans whereas, they venerate and pray towards a giant stone...
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

I pray to God to guide me to the right path.

Offline andrewlya

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2014, 04:36:29 PM »
St. John of Damascus has this to say:

Quote
They furthermore accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed, but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabár. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

Based on this, we would question the assertion that Abraham built it, and we would say it has ties to pre-Islamic Arab paganism.

The same guy I mentioned in another thread, al-Tabari came up with the idea that Abraham lived in Mecca and made the Kaaba. It's not in the Qur'an... that I know of.
If it's not in the Qur'an, it must be in one of their Hadith's..
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

I pray to God to guide me to the right path.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2014, 04:48:20 PM »
Hi,
what is a historical take on the Kaaba in Mecca? Muslims say that Kaaba The Kaaba that was constructed by Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail.

What do we, as Orthodox, know about this allegation?

The black stone is a meteorite that Muslims venerate.
Dont they call it the House of God?
They call us pagans whereas, they venerate and pray towards a giant stone...

In Islam every mosque is a house of god. Also, in Islam the entire world is a mosque.

Quote from: Muhammad in Sahih Muslim 1057
The earth is a mosque for you, so wherever you are at the time of prayer, pray there.
"Your children shall become the head, but you... will become the tail of the Church; therefore your judges will be those who have always preserved the Catholic Faith... they will be the Orthodox and true Catholics since they have never accepted heretics... but have remained zealous for the True Faith." (Western Bishops' Response to Pope Vigilius)

Offline Jetavan

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2014, 04:49:23 PM »
St. John of Damascus has this to say:

Quote
They furthermore accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed, but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabár. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

Based on this, we would question the assertion that Abraham built it, and we would say it has ties to pre-Islamic Arab paganism.

The same guy I mentioned in another thread, al-Tabari came up with the idea that Abraham lived in Mecca and made the Kaaba. It's not in the Qur'an... that I know of.
It's in 2:127.

"And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing."
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2014, 04:54:50 PM »
St. John of Damascus has this to say:

Quote
They furthermore accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed, but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabár. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

Based on this, we would question the assertion that Abraham built it, and we would say it has ties to pre-Islamic Arab paganism.

The same guy I mentioned in another thread, al-Tabari came up with the idea that Abraham lived in Mecca and made the Kaaba. It's not in the Qur'an... that I know of.
It's in 2:127.

"And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing."

Hmm... but that passage is bereft of context and requires lots of interpretation to get to a specific 'house' in Mecca, I think.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 04:55:03 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
"Your children shall become the head, but you... will become the tail of the Church; therefore your judges will be those who have always preserved the Catholic Faith... they will be the Orthodox and true Catholics since they have never accepted heretics... but have remained zealous for the True Faith." (Western Bishops' Response to Pope Vigilius)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2014, 04:57:30 PM »
Oh,thank you that's interesting. Also, they worship towards Kaabah as if God lives there, but God is everywhere around us...

I think you'll enjoy this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW6AZ38CPTQ
;)
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2014, 05:01:13 PM »
St. John of Damascus has this to say:

Quote
They furthermore accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed, but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabár. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

Based on this, we would question the assertion that Abraham built it, and we would say it has ties to pre-Islamic Arab paganism.

The same guy I mentioned in another thread, al-Tabari came up with the idea that Abraham lived in Mecca and made the Kaaba. It's not in the Qur'an... that I know of.
It's in 2:127.

"And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing."

Hmm... but that passage is bereft of context and requires lots of interpretation to get to a specific 'house' in Mecca, I think.

According to the Qur'an, Abraham said this:

Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful. (Surah 14:37)

The Kaaba was considered the House of Allah long before Muhammad, Allah being the supreme deity of Arabian paganism.
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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2014, 06:01:33 PM »
Hi,
what is a historical take on the Kaaba in Mecca? Muslims say that Kaaba The Kaaba that was constructed by Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail.

What do we, as Orthodox, know about this allegation?

The black stone is a meteorite that Muslims venerate.
Dont they call it the House of God?
They call us pagans whereas, they venerate and pray towards a giant stone...

The meteorite is in the corner on the wall of the Kaaba.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 06:02:57 PM by Hinterlander »

Offline vasily

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2014, 10:31:00 AM »
Were the Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail in Arabia or Mecca?

Offline Jetavan

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2014, 10:35:22 AM »
Were the Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail in Arabia or Mecca?
Is Mecca not in Arabia?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2014, 11:11:16 AM »
I've read there might be an icon of the Theotokos in there.

Quote
"Apart from the icon of the Virgin Mary and the child Jesus, and a painting of an old man, said to be Abraham, the walls inside [Kaaba] had been covered with pictures of pagan deities. Placing his hand protectively over the icon, the Prophet told `Uthman to see that all other paintings, except that of Abraham, were effaced."

Martin Lings, "Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources"
 p.300, ref: al-Waqidi, Kitab al-Maghazi 834, and Azraqi, Akhbar Makkah vol. 1, p. 107.

Quote
"... pictures of the prophets and pictures of trees and of angels. Among them there was a picture of Ibrahim as of an elderly man, drawing lots with arrow lots, and the picture of Jesus, the son of Mary, and of his mother and a picture with angels."

 Al-Azraqi according to the Arabic text edited by Ferdinand Wuestenfeld, Chroniken der Stadt Mekka, Band 1, Leipzig
 1858, reprint Beyrouth 1964, p. 110 s.

Quote
"On the day of the conquest of Mecca the Prophet entered the House [Kaaba] and sent al-Fadl ibn al-Abbas ibn Abdalmuttalib to get water from the well of Zemzem. He ordered to bring pieces of cloth and to imbue them with water and then he commanded to wash off these pictures, as it was done. He stretched his arms, however, over the picture of Jesus, the son of Mary, and of his mother and said: 'Wash off all except what is under my hands!' But eventually he took away his hands away from Jesus, the son of Mary, and his mother."

 Al-Azraqi p. 111, cf. p. 76
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Offline vasily

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2014, 09:04:41 AM »
They could have been in some areas of Arabia and not in Mecca. Anyone have an answer?

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2014, 04:37:05 PM »
They could have been in some areas of Arabia and not in Mecca. Anyone have an answer?

Abraham was never in any part of Arabia.

Ishmael was not there either. Besides, Ishmael was not a prophet.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2014, 04:41:46 PM »
I've read there might be an icon of the Theotokos in there.

Quote
"Apart from the icon of the Virgin Mary and the child Jesus, and a painting of an old man, said to be Abraham, the walls inside [Kaaba] had been covered with pictures of pagan deities. Placing his hand protectively over the icon, the Prophet told `Uthman to see that all other paintings, except that of Abraham, were effaced."

Martin Lings, "Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources"
 p.300, ref: al-Waqidi, Kitab al-Maghazi 834, and Azraqi, Akhbar Makkah vol. 1, p. 107.

Quote
"... pictures of the prophets and pictures of trees and of angels. Among them there was a picture of Ibrahim as of an elderly man, drawing lots with arrow lots, and the picture of Jesus, the son of Mary, and of his mother and a picture with angels."

 Al-Azraqi according to the Arabic text edited by Ferdinand Wuestenfeld, Chroniken der Stadt Mekka, Band 1, Leipzig
 1858, reprint Beyrouth 1964, p. 110 s.

Quote
"On the day of the conquest of Mecca the Prophet entered the House [Kaaba] and sent al-Fadl ibn al-Abbas ibn Abdalmuttalib to get water from the well of Zemzem. He ordered to bring pieces of cloth and to imbue them with water and then he commanded to wash off these pictures, as it was done. He stretched his arms, however, over the picture of Jesus, the son of Mary, and of his mother and said: 'Wash off all except what is under my hands!' But eventually he took away his hands away from Jesus, the son of Mary, and his mother."

 Al-Azraqi p. 111, cf. p. 76
not anymore-the Ka'bah was totally destroyed in the Second Fitnah/Civil War, and had to be totally rebuilt.
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2014, 04:44:20 PM »

not anymore-the Ka'bah was totally destroyed in the Second Fitnah/Civil War, and had to be totally rebuilt.

Allah failed to protect his house after Islam? In pre-Islamic times he once sent his birds (daughters?) to ward off Abraha's army.  ;D
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2014, 04:46:00 PM »
They could have been in some areas of Arabia and not in Mecca. Anyone have an answer?

Abraham was never in any part of Arabia.

Ishmael was not there either.
Both were in the Negev and Sinai.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: About Kaaba
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2014, 04:53:13 PM »

Both were in the Negev and Sinai.

When and why? I want biblical references.  8)
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