OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 24, 2014, 11:52:55 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: SERBIA: Romanian Orthodox church threatened with demolition  (Read 3692 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Canmak
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99


OC.net


« on: March 19, 2005, 08:20:14 PM »

This article was published by F18News on: 15 March 2005

Quote
SERBIA: Romanian Orthodox church threatened with demolition
By Drasko Djenovic, Forum 18 News Service
 
Romanian Orthodox deacon Bojan Aleksandrovic is fighting an order, by the local authority, that he must demolish a church he built on his land in his home village of Malajnica in eastern Serbia. Officials say he cannot build without planning permission (although this is not required in rural areas) or the permission of the separate Serbian Orthodox Church (although this is nowhere required in law). Because Aleksandrovic is not a cleric of the Serbian Church "he has no right to ask to build a church," the council declared. Police too have questioned him about his religious activity. "All the questions were related to Orthodox church rules and jurisdiction rather than to civil law," Aleksandrovic told Forum 18 News Service. The Serbian government has long refused to recognise the Romanian Orthodox Church's diocese in the country.
 
 
Local authorities have insisted a deacon must demolish a Romanian Orthodox church he built in his home village of Malajnica (Malainita in Romanian) in eastern Serbia. They argue it needed planning permission and permission from the separate Serbian Orthodox Church, though neither is required in law. Police have also questioned the deacon about his religious activities. "I was invited to the police station to answer questions on when and where I perform religious services," sub-deacon Bojan Aleksandrovic (Alecksandrovici in Romanian) told Forum 18 News Service from Malajnica on 5 March. "All the questions were related to Orthodox church rules and jurisdiction rather than to civil law."
Aleksandrovic told Forum 18 he has received a personal promise from Serbia's religion minister Milan Radulovic at a meeting in early February that the church will not be demolished. "So far I have not received any written document on this," Aleksandrovic added, "and the case is now in Serbia's Supreme Court."
Complicating the situation is the continuing refusal of the Serbian government to recognise the Romanian Orthodox Church's diocese in Serbia - which now has 39 parishes. The state recognises it only as a vicariate, the status it had until February 1997 when the Romanian Orthodox Holy Synod raised it to a diocese, and regards it as being confined to ethnic Romanians in the Banat region in the northern province of Vojvodina, some distance from Malajnica.
Aleksandrovic built the small church and adjoining parish house last year on his private property and began using it for worship in the autumn. On 4 December 2004, Bishop Daniil (Stoenescu) - who heads the Romanian diocese in Serbia - dedicated the church bells. Aleksandrovic was obliged to build without planning permission because this area is defined in law as rural not urban, so the authorities are not able to give any planning permission and therefore all houses in the village have been built without any permission. Yet on 20 January 2005, Negotin council (to whose jurisdiction the village belongs) issued Aleksandrovic with an order to demolish the church, the belfry and the parish house within 15 days. He was allowed to challenge the ruling in court.
Aleksandrovic initially tried to seek building permission, approaching Negotin council in November 2003 (which failed to respond for several months). Rajko Korica, deputy Minister of Capital Investments, eventually wrote to Aleksandrovic in April 2004 informing him he should contact the Religion Ministry to get building permission. However, the Religion Ministry responded that it is not authorised to issue such permission and that this must come from the local authorities (in this case Negotin council). However, it said approval must first be gained from the Serbian Orthodox diocese in which the place of worship is to be built. Since Malajnica is in the Serbian Timok diocese, Aleksandrovic in effect needed permission from Serbian Bishop Justin (Stefanovic).
On 16 June 2004, Negotin council sent Aleksandrovic by courier the conclusion of the council's administration for communal and building affairs dated 30 April 2004 that the procedure had been halted. The conclusion noted that the council had written to Bishop Justin for his approval for the church building. "They have received a reply, document no. 4 of 14 January 2004, with information that Bojan Aleksandrovic is not a cleric of the Timok diocese and because of this he has no right to ask to build a church. Since [Aleksandrovic] undermines church order he has no blessing from Bishop Justin." It gave Aleksandrovic 30 days to reach a solution with the religion ministry to the conflict with the Serbian diocese and its local priest, which it described as "the only legal representatives of the Timok diocese and therefore the only ones who can decide on the proposed church".
Aleksandrovic challenged the council's rejection of his right to build, but the Zajecar district rejected his appeal on 7 December 2004 as unfounded. He lodged an appeal against this to the Supreme Court on 5 January.
In a separate case, and because in law only organisations not individuals can lodge such appeals, the Association for the Culture of Romanians/Vlachs of Serbian Orthodox Romanians in Malajnica challenged the Negotin council's conclusion to the constitutional court. But on 13 January 2005 the court rejected the application, declaring that the conclusion was not a public act (it is a conclusion not a decision) so did not fall within the court's competency.
Even had the village been granted urban status (which is not the case), Negotin council's demand for permission from the religion ministry to approve the new place of worship is strange. Aleksandra Rackov of the Ministry of Capital Investments told Forum 18 on 4 March in Belgrade that the Planning and Construction Law requires no special permission by the Serbian Orthodox leadership or the religion ministry for any building, including places of worship.
If the Serbian authorities decide to demolish the buildings it will be the same legal explanation as the Macedonian government used in October 2004 to demolish the Serbian Orthodox monastery of St John Chrysostom (see F18News 21 October 2004 http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=437).
The dedication of the bells at the Malajnica church in December immediately provoked a response from the rival Serbian Orthodox Church. "No one informed me what would happen," Serbian Bishop Justin was quoted by the local press as declaring. "I regard this as a call for separatism, which could disrupt the centuries-long life together of Vlachs and Serbs in this area." The bishop complained to the Foreign Ministry of the Union of Serbia and Montenegro, since Bishop Daniil has a Romanian diplomatic passport.
Religion minister Radulovic blames the problem in Malajnica on the "undefined relationship" between the Serbian and Romanian churches. He believes the demolition order was enacted without the permission of Bishop Justin.
The Romanian Orthodox Church has been present in Serbia for several centuries. When the Romanian Holy Synod raised the vicariate to a diocese in 1997, Bishop Daniil was installed as bishop with his seat in Vrsac. The Serbian and Yugoslav governments never recognised the diocese since it was not created in agreement with Serbian Orthodox Church and Orthodox canons. The state has left the Serbian and Romanian Churches to find a solution and will follow whatever decision they reach.
According to the 2002 census, 34,576 ethnic Romanians and 40,046 Vlachs live in Serbia. Many Vlachs consider themselves ethnically Romanian. Most of Serbia's Romanians and Vlachs belong to the Romanian Orthodox Church. Besides Romanians in the Banat region, another centre of Romanians and Vlachs is in the Timok region close to Serbia's eastern border with Romania and Bulgaria. Romanians in the Banat can freely belong to the Romanian Church but only the Serbian Church has existed in Timok with services in Old Church Slavonic which Romanians - and indeed many Serbs - cannot understand.
In the past eight years, Romanian bishop Daniil has visited the Timok area without asking permission or informing Serbian Bishop Justin as is customary among sister Orthodox Churches. As a result of these visits, some local ethnic Romanians wanted pastoral care from the Romanian, rather than the Serbian Church. Although primarily a canonical question, this has raised a number of political issues.
In 2002 the Serbian government introduced religious education in primary and secondary schools. The Serbian Orthodox Church was specifically mentioned in regulations establishing the subject, though not the Russian, Romanian and Bulgarian Orthodox Churches which also have parishes in Serbia. Romanian Orthodox Vicar Mojse Janosh told Forum 18 that if the Romanian Orthodox were prepared to work as a Vicariate and not as a diocese they would be able to work in schools and the Serbian government would pay the salaries for teachers as they do for Serbian Orthodox teachers and priests. He added that the Church still uses the Vicariate to regulate health and pension insurance for its clergy because of the Serbian government's refusal to recognise the diocese.
The Romanian foreign ministry has several times expressed concern over the treatment of the Romanian Orthodox Church in Serbia, noting on 10 January that its embassy in Belgrade had maintained constant contact with Aleksandrovic since the previous month about the fate of his church in Malajnica.
On 21 January - the day after the demolition order was issued - the Romanian foreign ministry expressed "deep regret" over the way the local authorities had behaved, especially as planning permission is not required in the village, and making representations through diplomatic channels. "The Ministry of Foreign Affairs expresses its conviction that this situation will be sorted out in accordance to the law and to the rightful aspirations of a part of the local community," the statement declared.
For more background information see Forum 18's Serbian religious freedom
survey at http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=387
A printer-friendly map of Serbia and Montenegro is available at:
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/xpeditions/atlas/index.html?Parent=europe&Rootmap=yugosl
 



Hypocritical of the Serbs don't you all think.
Logged

My doctor says I am fine its my other personalities that have the problems.
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2005, 09:01:41 PM »

I'm not sold on F18 news yet.  Of all their lists of things done against religous groups, I'm curious as to why they do not mention the burning of so many Serbian Orthodox churches in Kosovo.  It seems like a rather odd omission for a group that's supposed to be highlighting religous persecution. 

If I do accept this article, there seem to be ecclesiological issues I don't feel comfortable having a non-Orthodox community judging.  Concerning the language issue, it was my understanding that the Romanians, at least in the past, used Old Slavonic as their liturgical language, so I'm not sure what the point of that part of the article was about.

I'm curious to hear what the Romanian Orthodox on the site think. 
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2005, 01:54:53 AM »

I do not find the Serbs to be hypocritical at all. In fact, they appear to be exactly following established canonical protocol for when one local church establishes a church in another local church's see. The Church allows this if done with permission.
In pre-schism Constantinople there were Latin parishes opened at the request of the Bishop of Rome and with the permission of the Bishop of Constantinople.
Our new member Kolya was recently asked here to explain his "MP under the AP" designation. Same thing. The ROC-MP sought the permission of the Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria to establish Russian parishes the the AP's see. This was granted. The MP administers these parishes- provides priests and support, financial and otherwise, and the churches are "spiritually" under the the AP.
I understand that Australia to a great extent operates its 14 jurisdictions under the same canonical model for the most part (excepting "irregular status" churches).
In America, we started out this way with the ROC pastoring other flocks such as the Greeks. The requested Greek priests came for the Church of Greece, the parishes "spiritually" under the MP. This worked until the 1917 debacle and then the outrageous actions of Patriarch Meletios. (But that's another story.)
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2005, 04:20:24 AM »

I'm not sold on F18 news yet. Of all their lists of things done against religous groups, I'm curious as to why they do not mention the burning of so many Serbian Orthodox churches in Kosovo. It seems like a rather odd omission for a group that's supposed to be highlighting religous persecution.

If I do accept this article, there seem to be ecclesiological issues I don't feel comfortable having a non-Orthodox community judging. Concerning the language issue, it was my understanding that the Romanians, at least in the past, used Old Slavonic as their liturgical language, so I'm not sure what the point of that part of the article was about.

I'm curious to hear what the Romanian Orthodox on the site think.


cizinec,

Firstly, on liturgical language. The Romanian church did use Slavonic officially for several centuries during the middle ages but have not done so for a very long time now - Romanian is used in the liturgy as is appropriate for a church that believes people should worship in the vernacular. The reason for the introduction of Church Slavonic appears to have been some kind of historical accident and even when it was the official liturgical language, it's known that at least some priests continued to use Romanian, albeit mumbling it in a tone to make it sound more like Slavonic.

As for Romanian churches in Serbia, I see nothing wrong with having them (there are ethnic Romanians there after all) but as was noted by Aristokles, this should be done with the permission of the Serbian church, not unilaterally. I actually would say, personally, that any such churches ought to be under the jurisdiction of the Serbian Patriarchate but allowed to use Romanian language and follow Romanian customs - there really should not be two rival jurisdictions in one territory.

The worst place for inter-jurisdictional wranglings involving the Romanian church that I can think of is Bessarabia and Northern Bucovina (basically two small regions of the Ukraine plus the Republic of Moldova minus the Trans-Dnistria). These regions are, canonically, the territory of the Romanian church but after Stalin's annexation the Orthodox there were forced into the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate. Now the majority Romanian speaking population are under the Metropolitanate of Bessarabia (Romanian) whilst the minority Russian and Ukrainian speakers are usually under the MP. At least the Moldovans haven't broken off on their own like the Macedonians.

All the local churches ought to stick to their canonical territories except where permission is granted for them to enter another territory. Ideally, though, I think such circumstances should be few and far between. It would be far better for ethnic Romanians in Serbia and ethnic Russians in Moldova to have churches using their languages under the local jurisdiction than to set up two paralel jurisdictions - not to mention that the latter position would be uncannonical.

James
« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 04:21:10 AM by jmbejdl » Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2005, 12:45:44 PM »

As for Romanian churches in Serbia, I see nothing wrong with having them (there are ethnic Romanians there after all) but as was noted by Aristokles, this should be done with the permission of the Serbian church, not unilaterally. I actually would say, personally, that any such churches ought to be under the jurisdiction of the Serbian Patriarchate but allowed to use Romanian language and follow Romanian customs - there really should not be two rival jurisdictions in one territory.

James,

       I agree, unfortunately this is one of the areas where politics and religion are in line for a head on collision.  Given what is about to transpire in Kosovo, I think Serbian public is especially weary that the Vojvodina province will be the next piece of geography taken from Serbia and the establishment of a RO Church, might be perceived as furthering that cause.

      Ultimately, I agree the decision cannot be made unilaterally and is counterproductive to Orthodoxy.

CanMak,

     Your anti-Serb bias is very clear.  You, as I recall, were the one who referred to "that Serb Pavle", when discussing our Blessed Patriarch.  Posting an article, clearly intended to "stir the pot" on this website is also counter productive but consistent with your M.O.

     If you are Orthodox, as you claim, let me ask you this... is it more important to you being "Macedonian" or being Orthodox?  If you answer the latter, than I think you need to check your anti-Serb, anti-Greek, anti-Orthodox attitude.  If it is the former, well, than we can only pray for you.

    I think if the moderators look at your history of posts, they will see that you don't have a single post which is intended at advancing the overall unity of Orthodoxy.  As is the case with many of your compatriots, you do a real disservice to the Orthodox faith.
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2005, 12:52:04 PM »

One last thing.

I think CanMak's (main) point is in his only line, that the Serbs are hypocrites.

Of course, for this to be true, the Macedonian Orthodox Church would have to be a recognized Autocephalous Church, which of course, it is not.

Thus the "hypocrite" argument, is, yet another example of empty rhetoric.
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2005, 02:36:02 PM »

I'm still glad he posted the article.  If Canmak has a bias (I think he does) it will show through and everyone here will understand it and take it into account.

I think the history of the Romanian Churchis interesting and am glad that it can be discussed here.

I agree with SouthSerb that Vojvodina is a big issue.  There has been a lot of talk and some actions taken to reinforce the theory that the Hungarians are eyeing Vojvodina for their own.  Condsidering the past decade of actions by the international community, I can see why Serbs would be nervous.

I am still curious about the position of Romanians on this subject.  I hate to see an Orthodox church torn down anywhere.  I just hope and pray that the two jurisdictions can work out a compromise.  I also don't know the official Romanian Orthodox position in this dispute.  I suspect there's a lot more to this story than we're being told in this article.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2005, 05:30:20 PM »

Cizinec,

     I agree with you in all respects.  Furthermore, I hate to see to Orthodox jurisdictions in conflict.  Unfortunately religion and politics don't make good bed fellows and I'm concerned that sister churches could get caught in the crossfire.

     I don't mind that the article was posted... it was just the intent (and the last line) that concern me.
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2005, 04:15:08 AM »

Cizinec,

I may not be ethnically Romanian but I am Romanian Orthodox and I believe I answered your question from my point of view. I'm not sure how many other Romanian Orthodox there are here, but I don't think I've seen more than maybe one or two. Maybe someone else will also chip in given time. As to the official point of view of the Romanian Patriarchate, I couldn't say with respect to this church but I would doubt they would approve of such unilateral action. I'd be disappointed if they did considering their position on the canonical territory of the See of Bessarabia - that would simply be hypocritical.

There is a Romanian Orthodox Diocese for Yugoslavia which I believe operates in the former Yugoslavia with the approval of the Serbian Patriarchate. This is an unusual and not ideal situation, as I suggested, but I would hope it would be temporary. I can't believe, to be honest, that this has much to do with politics. Even Romania Mare, the nationalist party in Romania, doesn't appear to have any designs on Vojvodina and they aren't shy about making claims to the territories of Bessarabia and Northern Bucovina. I suspect that it's merely an honest attempt to provide pastoral care to the Romanian minority in the region - given the situation in Kosovo, however, I can understand why some Serbs might be nervous about this.

As for Hungarian designs on Vojvodina, Serbia is likely to get nothing but support from Romania on this. Both countries have a history of conflict with and subjugation by the Hungarians and the nationalist parties in Hungary keep making claims to rightful possession of Transylvania also. Every country that borders Hungary seems to have such problems, with the exception of Austria. To be honest, outside of the Muslim world, they are my biggest worry in the Balkans. If the Hungarians were to elect a right wing party that could cause problems for many of their neighbours, particularly given the Hungarian tendency, even amongst mainstream historians, to produce revisionist history of the sort 'when we came to Europe we found Transylvania to be unpopulated.' Given the riches of Transylvania in terms of gold, silver and other natural resources that claim is ludicrous at best and their medieval chroniclers certainly do not agree with their modern historians. Personally, I think that this is a symptom of their being the last ethnic group to arrive in the region coupled with rosy memories of their formerly large empire. I just hope the Hungarian people aren't ever stupid enough to elect a fascist party.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2005, 09:19:31 AM »

James,

    I agree with you on Hungary and on the Romanian position vis a vis Vojvodina, however, right now is not a particularly rational period for the Serbs or Serbia.  As I intimated in my previous post, I think the "world" community is getting ready to announce the newest Islamic state, in the heart of Europe.

    Here is an interesting article I read on the issue over the weekend.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17357
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2005, 10:11:08 AM »

SouthSerb99,

That article is interesting, not because it says anything I haven't heard before, but because it comes from a Jewish writer who has nothing to gain from defending the Serbs.

I try to explain the situation in Kosovo to other English people who don't understand by asking them how they'd feel if the Muslims in Bradford and other West Yorkshire towns (they're a majority in some areas) were to start a guerrilla campaign against non-Muslim English demanding independence and then were to be supported by some foreign coalition and then, under foreign protection, started destroying English monuments and driving out the English (and anyone else non-Muslim in the process). They usually seem to think that Kosovo is somehow different, but they can never explain why. Probably because it's almost identical to my hypothetical situation.

I understand that Serbia is nervous at the moment and I think they have every right to be. I sincerely hope that Kosovo is not taken away from Serbia but I'm rather pessimistic about this. I, too, believe that Kosovo will end up as an independent terrorist state - after all, given the general level of ignorance in the west, just who is going to protest against it?

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2005, 02:09:16 PM »

There was an article yesterday on the same site that was in opposition to that article.  The new article went on to say how the Skandeberg SS units actually went to France and fought with the resistance and that Serbs weren't really murdered much in the holocaust.  It was written by a well known person in the Jewish community, but I can't find it now.  It rehashed the old opinion put out by the "World Community."  It also said that there was a growing anti-Semitic movement in Serbia, which I find odd. 

I noticed that B92 had an article about growing anti-Semitism in Serbia.  Say it ain't so! 
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2005, 03:02:24 PM »

Cizinec,

    Based upon what you just wrote, I called a Serbian friend of mine, who has lived in America for 7 years, but his entire family remains in Belgrade.  I wanted to ask him if he had any specific knowledge about anti-semetic feelings in Serbia present day.

    I'm not suggesting his opinion is dispositive of the entire country, but I think he has a pretty good "ear to the ground" so to speak. 

    He basically thought that anti-semetism is certainly NOT a part of the "general" attitude and that (as he said) Serbians hold their WWII actions with respect to Jews as a "badge of honor" and doesn't think anti-semetism pervades the country.

     Interstingly, he thought, homophobia was the greatest form of discrimination in Serbia, presently.  He also offered that he knows of at least one synagogue in Belgrade and to his knowledge, it has never been descecrated or threatened in all of the recent turmoil.

     It may have been that the article you read was part and parcel of the very successful PR campaign against Serbia.
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2005, 04:44:12 PM »

Here is the original article. They've now added a "reactions" section. It's their headliner and I think that, after reading the entire article, it sounds like a couple of idiots trying to get press.


Anti-Semitic and anti-B92 propaganda in Belgrade | 13:13 -> 18:22 March 22 | B92
 
BELGRADE -- Tuesday - In downtown Belgrade this morning, posters have appeared calling for a boycott of Radio Television B92 and anti-Semitic graffiti was written in front of the Jewish cemetery and several non-government organization headquarters.

The posters show the B92 logo inside the star of David with the message below: “Boycott because of anti-Serbian influence, dangerous influence on the Serbian youth, supporting the independence of Kosovo, supporting the spreading of drug use, homosexuality and other Western sicknesses and supporting the multiracial new world order.”

The message “Serbia to Serbs” also appears on the poster, which is signed to the name of the National Formation.

Last night, graffiti was drawn outside the buildings which house the Helsinki Human Rights Council in Serbia and the Humanitarian Rights Fund. The Helsinki Council help a petition signing event at Republic Square the night before entitled “Stop the Silent Conspiracy,” a campaign against rising anti-Semitic sentiments in Serbia, which was organized by eight non-government organizations.

In front of the organization’s headquarters last night, the message “Sonja Biserko - Jewish pawn - obedient servant of the World Jewish Movement” was written.

Reactions
 
Serbian President Boris Tadic has condemned the propaganda posters and anti-Semitic graffiti and asked for an immediate investigation into who is behind both. This type of labeling and indirect calls for lynching represent a part of our political folklore which is believed to have disappeared from the public arena, Tadic said. Stating that everyone has the right to state an argumentative criticism of all public voices, Tadic said that, however, calls for violence and spreading national intolerance is absolutely unacceptable.

The Serbia-Montenegro Ministry of Foreign Affairs demands that the Serbian government “urgently finds and punishes the organizers and committers of these acts of vandalism.”

The G17 Plus Party condemns any form of pressure being put on the media. “Free media is a necessary condition for healthy democracy. Serbia is on the road to the European Union and such occurrences cannot be tolerated.” the party states. “We must show that we are an open European society that is ready to unite with others to make a difference, we cannot allow threats, violence and extremism to dominate our public living.”

The Serbian Renewal Movement stated that the posters are a part of an anti-Hague lobby that encourage a lack of freedom of the press, anti-Semitism and xenophobia.

The Power of Serbia Movement and its leader Bogoljub Karic said that they support a democratic and European Serbia, free, professional and responsible journalism, and condemn all pressure put on the media which endangers its freedom.

The Independent Association of Journalists of Serbia demands that the government identifies who is behind this propaganda aimed at B92, which promotes racial, religious and gender discrimination.

“The IAJS, as an organization, respects differences in convictions and choice, but condemns such labeling and calls for violence, and believes that these posters are a sign of the times that we believed were behind us. Attackers of the media, especially those that became a symbol of free and independent journalism in the past decade, cannot be allow to get by without public condemnation and reactions from the authorities, and a punishment of this type of criminal activity.” according to a statement from the association.

http://www.b92.net/english/news/index.php?order=priority
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 04:44:35 PM by cizinec » Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2005, 04:54:19 PM »

I also wanted to post a link to the response in FrontPage magazine by Stephen Schwartz.

In the article where he parrots the old charges against Serbs (and not a government, etc.).

The most . . . ummm . . . interesting section is Item 10. I think that Jewish groups in America should be ashamed that he is defending mass murderers because they didn't kill Jews, they just killed Serbs.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17416

And I just found this article.  I guess that explains his position.  http://www.naqshbandi.org/events/articles/conversion_schwartz.htm
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 04:58:14 PM by cizinec » Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
JHP17
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 34


OC.net


« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2005, 12:33:13 AM »

dear all,
I sit here reading these articles and i just want to cry for the serbs of this world!!! i'm so upset about it all. what do we need to do to make people see the truth not through rose-coloured glasses but as it is??? The sad thing is I think that they all do know it but choose to ignore it!!!

Czar Lazar gave up an earthly kingdom at the battle of kosovo for a heavenly kingdom, I pray and hope that this kingdom awaits all serbs!!!

Kosovo may be phisically lost to the albanians but it will always be a part of our hearts and souls!!!

God be with the serbs and all of you

JHP
Logged

NULL
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2005, 10:06:18 AM »

JHP17,

    Thanks for the kind words.

All,

     I applaud all of my OC brothers and sisters who have not turned this discussion into a Serb trashing forum (which I think was the intended purpose of the post).  I think it is most admirable that all of us OC support Orthodoxy all over the world. 

     Deepest admiration and respect to all of you.
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2005, 11:05:29 AM »

Cizinec,

    I'm going to try to respond to the article you posted by "Stephen Schwartz".  I've read many other articles from "Mr. Schwartz", and I think many are familiar that he is an Islamicist that supports the spread of Islam world wide.  Yes, he does condemn wahhabism, but I've read articles of his, much like that of Alija Izetbegovic, advocating the gradual "take over" of Islam on the theory of only the strong shall survive.

Here goes.

1.    "There have never been muslim militants in Kosovo".  The KLA was classified a terrorist organization by Washington as late as 1998, because their "militant" activities are well known.  This is just ridiculous.  The KLA is funded by drugs, prostitution and connections to Saudi Arabia, this is not a secret.  Oh, and one last thing.... I guess the Muslim Albanians that murdered my Great Grandfather, cut him into pieces, scattered his body across a field (in the 50's), weren't militant... they were just celebrating Ramadan.

2.     Talk to Albanian Catholics and Orthodox Albanians, you'll find out in a hurry that they would rather stay with Serbia and Serbs.  In fact, even Amnesty International has reported that "centrist" Albanians have been murdered by the KLA, because of wanting to remain with Serbia.

3.     Haradinaj is not an muslim extremist.  Okay, lets accept this false premise for second.  So, he's not, than he is a secular extremist who raises the religious cause in times of convenience.  Yes, I see how this is much better.

4.     Dare I quote Noam Chomsky, but he has documented (at length), expulsions of Albanians DID NOT occur until after bombing.  This has been proven time and again.  So called "ethnic cleansing" took place as a result of NATO bombs, not Serbs.

5.    If 190 Orthodox Churches destroyed or descecrated is not "organized" what is?

6.    See #4.

7.    He never talks about who killed who.  Most foresenic experts agree that the MAJORITY of killings in Kosovo was done at the hands of Albanians.

8.     Racak did happen.  I am not a Serbian apologist.  It shouldn't have.  It gave the west a false pretext to do what they did to Serbia  (ie: bombing with depleted uranium etc...).  Racak is insignificant compared to more than 60 years of systematic expulsion and  intimidation against Serbs in Kosovo.

9.      Bosnia is not Kosovo, Bosnian Serbs are not Kosovo Serbs.  This is the shell game people like Suleyman oops I mean Schwartz like to play.  The photo was never shown to be conclusive either way.

10.      Cizinec already made one point, spot on.  Also, the Serbian role in WWII is well documented and one only need to do a search on a place called Jasenovac to know the truth.

11.     Jews in Israel were generally split along religious vs. secular lines.  The religious Jews generally siding with Serbs.

12.     He misses the point.  They bombed Serbs on Pascha.  They didn't bomb muslims during Ramadan. It shows a general disrespect for Orthodoxy.

13.     Iranians are not involved in Kosovo.  Hmmm, I wonder why dead Mujahdeen kept turning up during the war.  Maybe they were doing peaceful missionary work for Osama.

14.     He dances around this one.  Take a look at the  demographics of Serbia vs. Croatia and Slovenia, you'll find it startling to see the ethnic composition of Serbia is much more multi-ethnic than other areas of the former Yugoslavia.

15.     Milosevic is a criminal, but does not belong in the Hague.  I've done work there, the case against him is a joke.  It is built on the backs of liars who were forced into false testimony for plea bargains.  I think if you look at the plea bargain of Biljana Plavsic you'll see the truth.  She was one of the highest ranking politicians in the Bosnian Serb parliament, but would not testify against Slobo, because she said it would be a lie.  She also said she had NO affinity toward him, but that she could not betray her conscience.  She got 8 years.  Slobo should have been tried in Belgrade for defrauding his own people.

16.     Again, dancing around the issue.  I once read an article (many years ago... I think from the Guardian in England) about an investigtive journalist going to Bosnia to investigate the mass rapes.  She said that when she was in England, she was told the number was 20,000 rapes.  As she got within 500 miles of Bosnia, the number was dropped to 2000.  When she got to within 50 miles of the Bosnian border, the number dropped to 200.  Once inside Bosnia, the number dropped to 20 and when she went to interview the women, she could only find 2 that would say they were raped.  In my books, that is two to many, and the animals who committed rape (on all sides) should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  However, the exaggerations of rape did represent a systematic propoganda campaign used to demonize the Serbs in the eyes of  a relatively uniformed public.

17.     He say Rugova is not like Arafat.  He follows this by saying, neither were religious and it is clear from their actions, both were opportunists for western involvement.  Right, no similarities at all.

18.     He says in one breath "no fundamentalist minorities" then contradicts his own statement by saying "Saudi and other Gulf Arab agents had been, to repeat, investigated, arrested, and expelled, or their activities otherwise seriously limited".  It is the last part that tells all.  What doe seriously limited mean?  Now the Mujahadeen are limited to recruiting rather than carrying out systemtic murder against Serbs?

19.     I recenlty told someone I was Serbian, they responded by telling me, "they didn't know Siberia was its own country".  Enough said.

In sum, Mr. Islam Schwartz's article is full of holes.  I've written to him personally several times, of course, he has never responded.  Empty rhetoric without challenge is what has fueled the demonization of Serbs and Serbia.

I'd also like to say (as I did earlier), I'm not a Serbian apologist.  I don't deny that "some" Serbs have done wrong in the Balkans.  However, nothing that us Serbs have done, warrant the destruction of our Churches, murder of our people and the theft of our land.
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2005, 02:48:53 PM »

Cizinec,

    I was wondering if you were familiar with this story (which was alluded to earlier).

http://www.spc.org.yu/Vesti-2004/10/20-10-04-e.html#com
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2005, 06:37:09 PM »

SouthSerb99,

The story is disturbing, but to be expected as the fruits of Schism. It is not enough that the schismatic and illegitimate ecclesiastical organization in FYROM try and tear asunder the Body of Christ, the must also terrorize the very few Faithful Christians that live in their lands.

And what is even more tragic is that even while these schismatics make war against Christianity, the United States government is falling all over itself to recognize them and support them in their further dividing and and destabilizing of Yugoslavia.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2005, 04:28:52 PM »

Greekischristian,

     Well said.
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2005, 08:32:02 PM »

SouthSerb,

I was aware of that tragedy.  I can't understand it at all.  I know what they're trying to do, but I don't know why, especially with our current patriarch.  I know it's political, but dang.  I'm also aware that there are some Montenegrins claiming they are independent of our patriarch. 
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2005, 10:31:36 AM »

The story is disturbing, but to be expected as the fruits of Schism. It is not enough that the schismatic and illegitimate ecclesiastical organization in FYROM try and tear asunder the Body of Christ, the must also terrorize the very few Faithful Christians that live in their lands.

Greekischristian,

     The thing I find most disturbing about the story is the fact that the "Orthodox Community" (all of us) have been fairly vocal in protesting what Albanian Muslims have done to hundreds of Orthodox Churches in Kosovo, yet what is the difference with regards to what the FYROM government did?

      In fact, what the blashpemous government in FYROM did, might be worse, because they purport to be Orthodox.  Unlike the situation with the Romanian Orthodox Church, the MOC is not an autocephalous Church and should have no beef with the monestary near Bitolj.

      It is also worth note that there are two (2) Roman Catholic Churches within a 25 mile radius of where this Orthodox Cathedral was demolished.  Of course, those remain undisturbed.  And you say FYROM is Orthodox?
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
Antiochian
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 89


« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2005, 09:08:51 AM »

The Orthodox situation in the Balkans disturbs me.

Crimes committed during the wars cannot be condoned by any part, but having said that, Kosovo cannot break off from Serbia. That would be another great injustice.

It is quite obvious why the West has been adamant to weaken Serbia.

The Serb-dominated Yugoslavia had the largest army in Southern Europe. The Orthodox community was in vast control of this European power, and was an ally of the Orthodox power Russia.

The West did everything to weaken Serbia, and they will weaken it by supporting an Islamic Kosovo state. It isn't because they want to promote Islam, but they know that such a creation will keep Serbia weak as they will constantly be battling with Kosovo, thus leaving the region impoverished and in constant conflict.

This is why I am stressing the need for an Orthodox Council that will bring Orthodox countries and communities closer together, so there can be a voice in the world that can prevent Islamic-Western attempts to swallow us up.

As for intra-Orthodox conflicts, we do ourselves no favours!
Logged
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2005, 10:00:14 AM »

The Serb-dominated Yugoslavia had the largest army in Southern Europe. The Orthodox community was in vast control of this European power, and was an ally of the Orthodox power Russia.

I agree with everything you said except for this line.  Yugoslavia was not "Serb-dominated".  In fact, nothing could've been further from the truth.  Although the Serbs had the largest population, their governmental authority was disproportionately small.

In fact, if anyone had an opportunity to drive through the former Yugoslavia, you would see this by the socio-economic status of the various ethnic groups.

RC Slovenia was light years ahead of the rest.  Croatia second with Serbia probably third.  Than I'd probably say B & H followed by the republic of Macedonia and finally Montenegro.

In fact, the Orthodox areas in Yugolavia, played second fiddle to the RC areas (although the Islamic areas were pretty bad too).  I've always believed that RC politics within Yugoslavia were MUCH MORE problematic than Islamic politics (although that has changed over the last 10 years).

As for the "intra-Orthodox" fighting... what can I say, but you are 100% right and it is very sad.  However, the member that started this discussion has a political agenda and is certainly not an Orthodox Christian in any sense of the word.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2005, 10:00:57 AM by SouthSerb99 » Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.142 seconds with 52 queries.