OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 01, 2014, 03:54:40 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: What do we at least agree on ?  (Read 1684 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Jude1:3
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: USA
Posts: 53



« on: February 04, 2014, 04:38:38 PM »

     What are common things that both Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestants agree on ?


   I have a little list.

   Feel free to add:

  1. The Holy Trinity
  2. The Virgin Birth
  3. The Divinity of The Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.
  4. The Old Testament Prophesies of Jesus in the Old Testament.
  5. The Nicene Creed


  Anything else ? I know there has to be more stuff that we agree on.
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2014, 04:44:18 PM »

     What are common things that both Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestants agree on ?


   I have a little list.

   Feel free to add:

  1. The Holy Trinity
  2. The Virgin Birth
  3. The Divinity of The Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.
  4. The Old Testament Prophesies of Jesus in the Old Testament.
  5. The Nicene Creed


  Anything else ? I know there has to be more stuff that we agree on.

Since you include protestants, nothing.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Jude1:3
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: USA
Posts: 53



« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2014, 04:45:19 PM »

     What are common things that both Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestants agree on ?


   I have a little list.

   Feel free to add:

  1. The Holy Trinity
  2. The Virgin Birth
  3. The Divinity of The Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.
  4. The Old Testament Prophesies of Jesus in the Old Testament.
  5. The Nicene Creed


  Anything else ? I know there has to be more stuff that we agree on.

Since you include protestants, nothing.


   As in Nothing else ?
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,305


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2014, 04:46:46 PM »

1) Nope. In fact, many Roman Catholics and Protestants I've met have gotten extremely lax about the Trinity, with Roman Catholics disregarding it "because it don't make sense" and more and more Protestants discarding it because "it's not in the Bible" (which they are actually correct about to a degree, btw).

2) Nope. Many Protestants ascribe a great sense of value to sexuality (for better or for worse) and thus will go through great lengths to say that Jesus was in fact born from sexual intercourse and that St. Joseph and the Theotokos were making love every single night. The concept of celibacy or virginity is something that some Protestants are extremely wary of.

3) Nope. Actually, most Protestants and RCs--even Orthodox to a degree--don't have any idea about who or what the Holy Spirit is, or if its even its own person. In regards to Jesus' Divinity, many Protestants I know don't really have a concept of "Divinity" or "Humanity." They don't have a concept of Christology at all. Simple put, they believe "Jesus died for our sins" and as to who or what He was, it doesn't matter. You usually won't get a deep Protestant answer about this.

4) LOL! Nope (see the Filioque)
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Jude1:3
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: USA
Posts: 53



« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2014, 04:49:04 PM »

1) Nope. In fact, many Roman Catholics and Protestants I've met have gotten extremely lax about the Trinity, with Roman Catholics disregarding it "because it don't make sense" and more and more Protestants discarding it because "it's not in the Bible" (which they are actually correct about to a degree, btw).

2) Nope. Many Protestants ascribe a great sense of value to sexuality (for better or for worse) and thus will go through great lengths to say that Jesus was in fact born from sexual intercourse and that St. Joseph and the Theotokos were making love every single night. The concept of celibacy or virginity is something that some Protestants are extremely wary of.

3) Nope. Actually, most Protestants and RCs--even Orthodox to a degree--don't have any idea about who or what the Holy Spirit is, or if its even its own person. In regards to Jesus' Divinity, many Protestants I know don't really have a concept of "Divinity" or "Humanity." They don't have a concept of Christology at all. Simple put, they believe "Jesus died for our sins" and as to who or what He was, it doesn't matter. You usually won't get a deep Protestant answer about this.

4) LOL! Nope (see the Filioque)




  Man  Cry    That is actually depressing. 
Logged
Jude1:3
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: USA
Posts: 53



« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2014, 04:53:50 PM »

    See this is why I wonder if The Lord is starting to do a work in many people's heart about Orthodoxy, because there really are Protestant Christians out there that believe these Core Doctrines but it seems like a lot of these Protestant Churches are starting to go off the deep end and deny The Very Basic Core Doctrines of Historical Christianity.  It's disturbing.
Logged
Yurysprudentsiya
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Posts: 1,282


« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2014, 04:54:08 PM »

     What are common things that both Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestants agree on ?


   I have a little list.

   Feel free to add:

  1. The Holy Trinity
  2. The Virgin Birth
  3. The Divinity of The Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.
  4. The Old Testament Prophesies of Jesus in the Old Testament.
  5. The Nicene Creed


  Anything else ? I know there has to be more stuff that we agree on.

I think you need to define Protestants to really discuss this.  Do you mean the Magisterial Reformers?  Anabaptists?  Pietists?  Restorationists?   Fundamentalists?  Evangelicals?  Emergent types?   Etc.  
Logged
Jude1:3
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: USA
Posts: 53



« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2014, 04:56:11 PM »

    What are common things that both Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestants agree on ?


   I have a little list.

   Feel free to add:

  1. The Holy Trinity
  2. The Virgin Birth
  3. The Divinity of The Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.
  4. The Old Testament Prophesies of Jesus in the Old Testament.
  5. The Nicene Creed


  Anything else ? I know there has to be more stuff that we agree on.

I think you need to define Protestants to really discuss this.  Do you mean the Magisterial Reformers?  Anabaptists?  Pietists?  Restorationists?   Fundamentalists?  Evangelicals?  Emergent types?   Etc.  


   I guess I mean Fundamentalist, Evangelical, And Anabaptists.
 
I know the Emergent Types are just plain Awful.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 04:58:08 PM by Jude1:3 » Logged
Yurysprudentsiya
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Posts: 1,282


« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2014, 04:57:12 PM »

     What are common things that both Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestants agree on ?


   I have a little list.

   Feel free to add:

  1. The Holy Trinity
  2. The Virgin Birth
  3. The Divinity of The Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.
  4. The Old Testament Prophesies of Jesus in the Old Testament.
  5. The Nicene Creed


  Anything else ? I know there has to be more stuff that we agree on.

I think you need to define Protestants to really discuss this.  Do you mean the Magisterial Reformers?  Anabaptists?  Pietists?  Restorationists?   Fundamentalists?  Evangelicals?  Emergent types?   Etc.  

Some might even include Unitarians and Universalists in the classical sense.  

And then you have problems such that some Lutheran parishes believe what Luther taught word for word while others say he was a metaphor to be reinterpreted in time.

For the record, I also include Mormons, JWs, and Seventh Day Adventists under Restorationists.  I also include Campbellites (Church of Christ) although they adopted far fewer novel doctrines than the others.  
Logged
Jude1:3
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: USA
Posts: 53



« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2014, 04:59:05 PM »

 In General I'll say Trinitarian Churches also.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 05:00:50 PM by Jude1:3 » Logged
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,461



« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2014, 04:59:51 PM »

     What are common things that both Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestants agree on ?


   I have a little list.

   Feel free to add:

  1. The Holy Trinity
  2. The Virgin Birth
  3. The Divinity of The Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.
  4. The Old Testament Prophesies of Jesus in the Old Testament.
  5. The Nicene Creed


  Anything else ? I know there has to be more stuff that we agree on.

I think you need to define Protestants to really discuss this.  Do you mean the Magisterial Reformers?  Anabaptists?  Pietists?  Restorationists?   Fundamentalists?  Evangelicals?  Emergent types?   Etc.  


   I guess I mean Fundamentalist, Evangelical, And Anabaptists.
If you look at official Statements of Belief (or equivalent) from various Protestant denominations there probably is plenty of agreement on the points you listed. However, for the average Protestant churchgoer there is probably very little agreement as others have pointed out. I have observed a big disconnect between official denominational beliefs and those held by the membership.
Logged
Yurysprudentsiya
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Posts: 1,282


« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2014, 05:06:16 PM »

    What are common things that both Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestants agree on ?


   I have a little list.

   Feel free to add:

  1. The Holy Trinity
  2. The Virgin Birth
  3. The Divinity of The Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.
  4. The Old Testament Prophesies of Jesus in the Old Testament.
  5. The Nicene Creed


  Anything else ? I know there has to be more stuff that we agree on.

I think you need to define Protestants to really discuss this.  Do you mean the Magisterial Reformers?  Anabaptists?  Pietists?  Restorationists?   Fundamentalists?  Evangelicals?  Emergent types?   Etc.  


   I guess I mean Fundamentalist, Evangelical, And Anabaptists.
 
I know the Emergent Types are just plain Awful.

1.  They agree on the persons, I think, but not their relationship.   Does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Son or doesn't He?
2.  I think most fundamentalists, Anabaptists and Evangelicals agree on the Virgin Birth as a fact.  Not sure about all Evangelicals.  What about the Rob Bell types?  But what about its theological implications in terms of our redemption, Mary's preeminent role in choosing, etc?   The Catholic position is characterized such that Mary couldn't refuse.  We don't believe that.  
3.  I think that we all probably agree that Christ was divine.  But the logical implication of this is that Mary is the Mother of God.  The Council at Ephesus recognized this in 431.  Do the groups you mentioned agree?
4.  Probably yes, as far as they go.  But our OT has more books than theirs and more prophesies.  Read Sirach or the Wisdom of Solomon.   Do they accept these prophesies?
5.  I don't know if Anabaptists accept the Creed at all formally although they wouldn't disagree with its contents. Some fundamentalists and evangelicals would probably deny the authority of a council to adopt a Creed at all that is binding.  And all have allowed "and the Son" to be improperly added to it.  
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 05:06:52 PM by Yurysprudentsiya » Logged
Jude1:3
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: USA
Posts: 53



« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2014, 05:07:51 PM »

    I was at work today talking with a Co Worker that is Coptic Orthodox and I was trying to think of Doctrines that we both had in common and also doctrines that were different. That is why I created this thread.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,625


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2014, 05:14:03 PM »

1) Nope. In fact, many Roman Catholics and Protestants I've met have gotten extremely lax about the Trinity, with Roman Catholics disregarding it "because it don't make sense" and more and more Protestants discarding it because "it's not in the Bible" (which they are actually correct about to a degree, btw).

2) Nope. Many Protestants ascribe a great sense of value to sexuality (for better or for worse) and thus will go through great lengths to say that Jesus was in fact born from sexual intercourse and that St. Joseph and the Theotokos were making love every single night. The concept of celibacy or virginity is something that some Protestants are extremely wary of.

3) Nope. Actually, most Protestants and RCs--even Orthodox to a degree--don't have any idea about who or what the Holy Spirit is, or if its even its own person. In regards to Jesus' Divinity, many Protestants I know don't really have a concept of "Divinity" or "Humanity." They don't have a concept of Christology at all. Simple put, they believe "Jesus died for our sins" and as to who or what He was, it doesn't matter. You usually won't get a deep Protestant answer about this.

4) LOL! Nope (see the Filioque)
 Man  Cry    That is actually depressing.  
What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you. Some of it looks factual, but there's so much apparent exaggeration in what he wrote that I don't know what's true and what's not.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 05:17:07 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Jude1:3
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: USA
Posts: 53



« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2014, 05:15:29 PM »

 I guess I'm Really Really wanting to have a common ground and Basic Core Doctrine Commonality with all Trinitarian Christians.

I want to be able to have fellowship with believers in The Lord Jesus Christ in the very basic sense of things.  I'm trying to grapple with certain and distinct doctrines that seem strange to me. It's all very interesting that is for sure.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 05:15:57 PM by Jude1:3 » Logged
Jude1:3
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: USA
Posts: 53



« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2014, 05:17:11 PM »

1) Nope. In fact, many Roman Catholics and Protestants I've met have gotten extremely lax about the Trinity, with Roman Catholics disregarding it "because it don't make sense" and more and more Protestants discarding it because "it's not in the Bible" (which they are actually correct about to a degree, btw).

2) Nope. Many Protestants ascribe a great sense of value to sexuality (for better or for worse) and thus will go through great lengths to say that Jesus was in fact born from sexual intercourse and that St. Joseph and the Theotokos were making love every single night. The concept of celibacy or virginity is something that some Protestants are extremely wary of.

3) Nope. Actually, most Protestants and RCs--even Orthodox to a degree--don't have any idea about who or what the Holy Spirit is, or if its even its own person. In regards to Jesus' Divinity, many Protestants I know don't really have a concept of "Divinity" or "Humanity." They don't have a concept of Christology at all. Simple put, they believe "Jesus died for our sins" and as to who or what He was, it doesn't matter. You usually won't get a deep Protestant answer about this.

4) LOL! Nope (see the Filioque)
  Man  Cry    That is actually depressing. 
What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.
LOLS. Wait a second..... I thought he was Orthodox also  Huh
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,531


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2014, 05:17:40 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue  
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Yurysprudentsiya
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Posts: 1,282


« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2014, 05:20:36 PM »

I guess I'm Really Really wanting to have a common ground and Basic Core Doctrine Commonality with all Trinitarian Christians.

I want to be able to have fellowship with believers in The Lord Jesus Christ in the very basic sense of things.  I'm trying to grapple with certain and distinct doctrines that seem strange to me. It's all very interesting that is for sure.

You can probably get a lot of agreement on certain basic facts with many or even most Trinitarian Christians.  But when you start to discuss what those facts mean, they will diverge all over the place.
Logged
DeniseDenise
Tiredness personified
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen no more!
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,410



« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2014, 05:21:16 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue  


Now is when you really wish there were a 'Take with a grain of salt' Board Title...
Logged

Please secure your own oxygen mask before assisting other passengers.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2014, 05:22:39 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue  

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,625


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2014, 05:25:10 PM »

1) Nope. In fact, many Roman Catholics and Protestants I've met have gotten extremely lax about the Trinity, with Roman Catholics disregarding it "because it don't make sense" and more and more Protestants discarding it because "it's not in the Bible" (which they are actually correct about to a degree, btw).

2) Nope. Many Protestants ascribe a great sense of value to sexuality (for better or for worse) and thus will go through great lengths to say that Jesus was in fact born from sexual intercourse and that St. Joseph and the Theotokos were making love every single night. The concept of celibacy or virginity is something that some Protestants are extremely wary of.

3) Nope. Actually, most Protestants and RCs--even Orthodox to a degree--don't have any idea about who or what the Holy Spirit is, or if its even its own person. In regards to Jesus' Divinity, many Protestants I know don't really have a concept of "Divinity" or "Humanity." They don't have a concept of Christology at all. Simple put, they believe "Jesus died for our sins" and as to who or what He was, it doesn't matter. You usually won't get a deep Protestant answer about this.

4) LOL! Nope (see the Filioque)
  Man  Cry    That is actually depressing. 
What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.
LOLS. Wait a second..... I thought he was Orthodox also  Huh
I didn't say he's not Orthodox. I just meant to imply that he knows much less than he lets on and that you would do well to take him--for that matter, each person here--with a grain of salt. I'm really not sure how good an answer you'll get from any one person on the matter you're asking about. Catholicism has its expansive and monolithic body of doctrines much like the Orthodox do, but the matter of whether individual Catholics actually believe the teachings of their church is a totally different question. Protestantism, OTOH, is so fragmented and so UN-monolithic, that every different Protestant you talk to will give you three different statements of what he believes.
Logged
DeniseDenise
Tiredness personified
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen no more!
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,410



« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2014, 05:26:56 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue  

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.

If that were 100% true across the board, there would be 0 reception by Chrismation.  Even with economia, the Church as a whole would not allow people with whom there is nothing -meaningful- held in common, to not receive baptism.

*prepares herself for the flames*
Logged

Please secure your own oxygen mask before assisting other passengers.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,625


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2014, 05:27:27 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue  

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.
Stop flattering James, and stop putting yourself forward as the final authority on questions.
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2014, 05:30:22 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue  

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.
Stop flattering James, and stop putting yourself forward as the final authority on questions.

What are you going on about? There is no such thing as "final authority" so I wouldn't even know how to put myself forward as that. But you and Mor badgering James, I do know about.

So Peter, what do all those who call themselves Christians on this planet hold in common that could be considered meaningful?

Nothing, as you stated in light of my authority regardless of whether it is final or not. You can't prove otherwise.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2014, 05:32:14 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue  

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.

If that were 100% true across the board, there would be 0 reception by Chrismation.  Even with economia, the Church as a whole would not allow people with whom there is nothing -meaningful- held in common, to not receive baptism.

*prepares herself for the flames*

It is true. Go get the set of all people who call themselves Christians. Then other than the fact they call themselves Christians, please give me another description of that set which would be meaningful in this discussion.

Some Christians don't believe Jesus existed or believe in God, so I am not sure what Christians agree on.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Jude1:3
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: USA
Posts: 53



« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2014, 05:33:37 PM »

1) Nope. In fact, many Roman Catholics and Protestants I've met have gotten extremely lax about the Trinity, with Roman Catholics disregarding it "because it don't make sense" and more and more Protestants discarding it because "it's not in the Bible" (which they are actually correct about to a degree, btw).

2) Nope. Many Protestants ascribe a great sense of value to sexuality (for better or for worse) and thus will go through great lengths to say that Jesus was in fact born from sexual intercourse and that St. Joseph and the Theotokos were making love every single night. The concept of celibacy or virginity is something that some Protestants are extremely wary of.

3) Nope. Actually, most Protestants and RCs--even Orthodox to a degree--don't have any idea about who or what the Holy Spirit is, or if its even its own person. In regards to Jesus' Divinity, many Protestants I know don't really have a concept of "Divinity" or "Humanity." They don't have a concept of Christology at all. Simple put, they believe "Jesus died for our sins" and as to who or what He was, it doesn't matter. You usually won't get a deep Protestant answer about this.

4) LOL! Nope (see the Filioque)
  Man  Cry    That is actually depressing. 
What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.
LOLS. Wait a second..... I thought he was Orthodox also  Huh
I didn't say he's not Orthodox. I just meant to imply that he knows much less than he lets on and that you would do well to take him--for that matter, each person here--with a grain of salt. I'm really not sure how good an answer you'll get from any one person on the matter you're asking about. Catholicism has its expansive and monolithic body of doctrines much like the Orthodox do, but the matter of whether individual Catholics actually believe the teachings of their church is a totally different question. Protestantism, OTOH, is so fragmented and so UN-monolithic, that every different Protestant you talk to will give you three different statements of what he believes.


    Interesting. Got It.

  I was reading Dr. Walter Martin's book "Essential Christianity" and it has some of the stuff I listed in the OP. I'll browse through it and see if I can find some more stuff in it to post.
Logged
Yurysprudentsiya
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Posts: 1,282


« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2014, 05:36:03 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue  

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.

If that were 100% true across the board, there would be 0 reception by Chrismation.  Even with economia, the Church as a whole would not allow people with whom there is nothing -meaningful- held in common, to not receive baptism.

*prepares herself for the flames*

It is true. Go get the set of all people who call themselves Christians. Then other than the fact they call themselves Christians, please give me another description of that set which would be meaningful in this discussion.

Some Christians don't believe Jesus existed or believe in God, so I am not sure what Christians agree on.


Thank God that everything isn't relative. Calling yourself a Christian doesn't make you one.  

I could call myself a Marxist (I don't) but real Marxists would have to judge whether I was close enough to be one.  

We as Orthodox hold the entirety of the faith.  Other groups are Christian to the degree they approach this fullness.  There is a line beyond which one isn't Christian no matter what one says.  Not believing in God or the existence of Christ is well beyond that line.  
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 05:36:43 PM by Yurysprudentsiya » Logged
DeniseDenise
Tiredness personified
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen no more!
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,410



« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2014, 05:36:21 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue  

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.

If that were 100% true across the board, there would be 0 reception by Chrismation.  Even with economia, the Church as a whole would not allow people with whom there is nothing -meaningful- held in common, to not receive baptism.

*prepares herself for the flames*

It is true. Go get the set of all people who call themselves Christians. Then other than the fact they call themselves Christians, please give me another description of that set which would be meaningful in this discussion.

Some Christians don't believe Jesus existed or believe in God, so I am not sure what Christians agree on.


Not arguing that there is not a wide span of variance in people who would call themselves Christian.  Am merely saying that there are some that do have meaningful shared beliefs, and thus you cannot categorically state 'there is nothing at all in common' since with some subgroups and denominations there is.

You cannot simplify it to that level and declare it a nothing.


no more. no less
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 05:37:34 PM by DeniseDenise » Logged

Please secure your own oxygen mask before assisting other passengers.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2014, 05:39:57 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue  

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.

If that were 100% true across the board, there would be 0 reception by Chrismation.  Even with economia, the Church as a whole would not allow people with whom there is nothing -meaningful- held in common, to not receive baptism.

*prepares herself for the flames*

It is true. Go get the set of all people who call themselves Christians. Then other than the fact they call themselves Christians, please give me another description of that set which would be meaningful in this discussion.

Some Christians don't believe Jesus existed or believe in God, so I am not sure what Christians agree on.


Not arguing that there is not a wide span of variance in people who would call themselves Christian.  Am merely saying that there are some that do have meaningful shared beliefs, and thus you cannot categorically state 'there is nothing at all in common' since with some subgroups and denominations there is.

You cannot simplify it to that level and declare it a nothing.


no more. no less

Not once you include protestants. The OP must have a point other than enumerating what Christians hold in common, they should get to it.

It would speed things up.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,305


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2014, 05:41:47 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue 

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.

If that were 100% true across the board, there would be 0 reception by Chrismation.  Even with economia, the Church as a whole would not allow people with whom there is nothing -meaningful- held in common, to not receive baptism.

*prepares herself for the flames*

The truth is, as much as the Orthodox won't even like to admit, the Church itself is fragmented and can't agree on even the most basic of things.

Visit the Old vs New Calendar threads if you don't believe me.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 05:42:02 PM by JamesR » Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Jude1:3
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: USA
Posts: 53



« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2014, 05:43:42 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue  

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.

If that were 100% true across the board, there would be 0 reception by Chrismation.  Even with economia, the Church as a whole would not allow people with whom there is nothing -meaningful- held in common, to not receive baptism.

*prepares herself for the flames*

It is true. Go get the set of all people who call themselves Christians. Then other than the fact they call themselves Christians, please give me another description of that set which would be meaningful in this discussion.

Some Christians don't believe Jesus existed or believe in God, so I am not sure what Christians agree on.


Not arguing that there is not a wide span of variance in people who would call themselves Christian.  Am merely saying that there are some that do have meaningful shared beliefs, and thus you cannot categorically state 'there is nothing at all in common' since with some subgroups and denominations there is.

You cannot simplify it to that level and declare it a nothing.


no more. no less

Not once you include protestants. The OP must have a point other than enumerating what Christians hold in common, they should get to it.

It would speed things up.
 
   Honestly Man My only Point is that I'm legitimately trying to find Common Core and Distinct Beliefs that all " Trinitarian" Christians agree on. That's it.
Logged
Yurysprudentsiya
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Posts: 1,282


« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2014, 05:48:28 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue 

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.

If that were 100% true across the board, there would be 0 reception by Chrismation.  Even with economia, the Church as a whole would not allow people with whom there is nothing -meaningful- held in common, to not receive baptism.

*prepares herself for the flames*

The truth is, as much as the Orthodox won't even like to admit, the Church itself is fragmented and can't agree on even the most basic of things.

Visit the Old vs New Calendar threads if you don't believe me.

Who among the canonical church doesn't accept both calendars?
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,305


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2014, 05:49:18 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue 

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.

If that were 100% true across the board, there would be 0 reception by Chrismation.  Even with economia, the Church as a whole would not allow people with whom there is nothing -meaningful- held in common, to not receive baptism.

*prepares herself for the flames*

The truth is, as much as the Orthodox won't even like to admit, the Church itself is fragmented and can't agree on even the most basic of things.

Visit the Old vs New Calendar threads if you don't believe me.

Who among the canonical church doesn't accept both calendars?

Who is the "canonical" Church?
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Yurysprudentsiya
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Posts: 1,282


« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2014, 05:50:49 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue 

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.

If that were 100% true across the board, there would be 0 reception by Chrismation.  Even with economia, the Church as a whole would not allow people with whom there is nothing -meaningful- held in common, to not receive baptism.

*prepares herself for the flames*

The truth is, as much as the Orthodox won't even like to admit, the Church itself is fragmented and can't agree on even the most basic of things.

Visit the Old vs New Calendar threads if you don't believe me.

Who among the canonical church doesn't accept both calendars?

Who is the "canonical" Church?

Those churches in communion with His All Holiness the Patriarch of Constantinople and, as I fervently believe, with His Holiness the Pope of Alexandria (sorry if I got the title wrong). 
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,625


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2014, 05:58:25 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue  

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.
Stop flattering James, and stop putting yourself forward as the final authority on questions.

What are you going on about? There is no such thing as "final authority" so I wouldn't even know how to put myself forward as that. But you and Mor badgering James, I do know about.
And you flattering James to the point that he's now eating out of the palm of your hand I know about, but that's neither here nor there. It's certainly not the point of this thread.

So Peter, what do all those who call themselves Christians on this planet hold in common that could be considered meaningful?
I'm not making this assertion you're questioning, so why don't you ask that question of those who are. Wink

Nothing, as you stated in light of my authority regardless of whether it is final or not. You can't prove otherwise.
Since I made no such assertion, I bear no burden to prove it.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 06:03:49 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
DeniseDenise
Tiredness personified
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen no more!
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,410



« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2014, 05:59:24 PM »

     What are common things that both Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestants agree on ?


   I have a little list.

   Feel free to add:

  1. The Holy Trinity
  2. The Virgin Birth
  3. The Divinity of The Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.
  4. The Old Testament Prophesies of Jesus in the Old Testament.
  5. The Nicene Creed


  Anything else ? I know there has to be more stuff that we agree on.





My advice...along the grain of salt sort of thinking...

Go (if it can at all be managed) to an actual real life Orthodox Church, speak to the Priest.  Beleive what you learn in Inquirers class or from talking to him at Coffee hours.

The internet is full of armchair 'deciders' and staters of truth as they see it.  Until you know that there are various things always repeated, and which you can ignore and which are based in some fact......don't take opinions here as factual.  Everyone has their own take on it.....as you are obviously seeing here.

Believe a real live person, whose face you can see the expressions of.....and who you can ask questions of in person.
Logged

Please secure your own oxygen mask before assisting other passengers.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,625


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2014, 06:00:17 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue 

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.

If that were 100% true across the board, there would be 0 reception by Chrismation.  Even with economia, the Church as a whole would not allow people with whom there is nothing -meaningful- held in common, to not receive baptism.

*prepares herself for the flames*

The truth is, as much as the Orthodox won't even like to admit, the Church itself is fragmented and can't agree on even the most basic of things.

Visit the Old vs New Calendar threads if you don't believe me.
You actually believe the calendar is among the most basic of things?
Logged
Jude1:3
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: USA
Posts: 53



« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2014, 06:02:37 PM »

     What are common things that both Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestants agree on ?


   I have a little list.

   Feel free to add:

  1. The Holy Trinity
  2. The Virgin Birth
  3. The Divinity of The Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.
  4. The Old Testament Prophesies of Jesus in the Old Testament.
  5. The Nicene Creed


  Anything else ? I know there has to be more stuff that we agree on.





My advice...along the grain of salt sort of thinking...

Go (if it can at all be managed) to an actual real life Orthodox Church, speak to the Priest.  Beleive what you learn in Inquirers class or from talking to him at Coffee hours.

The internet is full of armchair 'deciders' and staters of truth as they see it.  Until you know that there are various things always repeated, and which you can ignore and which are based in some fact......don't take opinions here as factual.  Everyone has their own take on it.....as you are obviously seeing here.

Believe a real live person, whose face you can see the expressions of.....and who you can ask questions of in person.
     

     Thank you for the advise. I have to do this soon.

Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,580



« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2014, 06:08:54 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue 

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.

If that were 100% true across the board, there would be 0 reception by Chrismation.  Even with economia, the Church as a whole would not allow people with whom there is nothing -meaningful- held in common, to not receive baptism.

*prepares herself for the flames*

The truth is, as much as the Orthodox won't even like to admit, the Church itself is fragmented and can't agree on even the most basic of things.

Visit the Old vs New Calendar threads if you don't believe me.
You actually believe the calendar is among the most basic of things?

I do not agree but for some folks it is.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,580



« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2014, 06:13:44 PM »

1) Nope. In fact, many Roman Catholics and Protestants I've met have gotten extremely lax about the Trinity, with Roman Catholics disregarding it "because it don't make sense" and more and more Protestants discarding it because "it's not in the Bible" (which they are actually correct about to a degree, btw).

2) Nope. Many Protestants ascribe a great sense of value to sexuality (for better or for worse) and thus will go through great lengths to say that Jesus was in fact born from sexual intercourse and that St. Joseph and the Theotokos were making love every single night. The concept of celibacy or virginity is something that some Protestants are extremely wary of.

3) Nope. Actually, most Protestants and RCs--even Orthodox to a degree--don't have any idea about who or what the Holy Spirit is, or if its even its own person. In regards to Jesus' Divinity, many Protestants I know don't really have a concept of "Divinity" or "Humanity." They don't have a concept of Christology at all. Simple put, they believe "Jesus died for our sins" and as to who or what He was, it doesn't matter. You usually won't get a deep Protestant answer about this.

4) LOL! Nope (see the Filioque)
 Man  Cry    That is actually depressing.  
What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you. Some of it looks factual, but there's so much apparent exaggeration in what he wrote that I don't know what's true and what's not.

I do not think that one looks for definitive answers from a participant on this forum. Those are James's views and, although not definitive, are by and large an acceptable contribution to the discussion.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,580



« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2014, 06:15:21 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue 

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.

If that were 100% true across the board, there would be 0 reception by Chrismation.  Even with economia, the Church as a whole would not allow people with whom there is nothing -meaningful- held in common, to not receive baptism.

*prepares herself for the flames*

The truth is, as much as the Orthodox won't even like to admit, the Church itself is fragmented and can't agree on even the most basic of things.

Visit the Old vs New Calendar threads if you don't believe me.

Who among the canonical church doesn't accept both calendars?

Who is the "canonical" Church?

Those churches in communion with His All Holiness the Patriarch of Constantinople and, as I fervently believe, with His Holiness the Pope of Alexandria (sorry if I got the title wrong). 

I am at a loss why you specified these two and left out all the remaining 13 local churches.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2014, 06:18:01 PM »

Don't you know that the Patriarch of Constantinople is our spiritual leader?
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
Yurysprudentsiya
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Posts: 1,282


« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2014, 06:29:34 PM »

What's most depressing is that you're so quick to believe James's assessment so accurate. I have no idea where he got half of the stuff he just told you.

Oh, Peter, he's likely not been around long enough to appreciate JamesR's sagacious insight into all things above his pay grade.  Tongue 

Well other than you two insulting him as usual nothing is different here including his being correct. I already stated, nothing meaningful is held in common by Christians.

If that were 100% true across the board, there would be 0 reception by Chrismation.  Even with economia, the Church as a whole would not allow people with whom there is nothing -meaningful- held in common, to not receive baptism.

*prepares herself for the flames*

The truth is, as much as the Orthodox won't even like to admit, the Church itself is fragmented and can't agree on even the most basic of things.

Visit the Old vs New Calendar threads if you don't believe me.

Who among the canonical church doesn't accept both calendars?

Who is the "canonical" Church?

Those churches in communion with His All Holiness the Patriarch of Constantinople and, as I fervently believe, with His Holiness the Pope of Alexandria (sorry if I got the title wrong). 

I am at a loss why you specified these two and left out all the remaining 13 local churches.

It is shorthand for the EO and OO communions.  Sorry for any confusion. 
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,305


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2014, 07:03:52 PM »

You actually believe the calendar is among the most basic of things?

When people are starving and blowing themselves up every day, yes.

You really think God is going to give a flying heck about which calendar we used?

But that's besides the point.

The point is that even within the Church, we can't agree on everything.

Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Yurysprudentsiya
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Posts: 1,282


« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2014, 07:07:07 PM »

You actually believe the calendar is among the most basic of things?

When people are starving and blowing themselves up every day, yes.

You really think God is going to give a flying heck about which calendar we used?

But that's besides the point.

The point is that even within the Church, we can't agree on everything.



But within the Church we agree that there are two valid calendars to choose from. 
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.192 seconds with 73 queries.