|
Raylight
|
 |
« on: February 02, 2014, 10:04:23 PM » |
|
In survey about religions in U.S shows that 88% of Evangelicals believe that the Bible is the word of God. 7 % of Evangelicals believe that the Bible is not the word of God but a book written by men. however, 59% of Orthodox believe that the Bible is the word of God. 29% of Orthodox believe that the Bible is not the word of God but a book written by men. For me personally I have so much respect for the Bible, I believe it is the word of God, I believe that the Bible is not just a book, it is The Book. 29% of Orthodox believe that the Bible is not the word of God, that number is not small. Why and how would some Orthodox Christians believe such thing ? How could we call ourselves Orthodox while believing that the Bible is not the word of God ?! The source of these numbers is http://religions.pewforum.org/comparisons# |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2014, 10:06:23 PM » |
|
The Word of God is not a book, but a Person. Think about it, Raylight.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Raylight
|
|
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2014, 10:10:43 PM » |
|
The Word of God is not a book, but a Person. Think about it, Raylight.
But the Bible states that the book is inspired by God, than it is the word of God. I'm not saying that I believe that the Bible is the word of God word by word, it is God's word written by men, but still the source of it is God in mankind's language. But to say that the Bible is simply not the word of God at all and that it is only a book written by men, I mean that is dangerous. Of course we shouldn't just call the bible the word of God without living it, God doesn't care about the papers but cares about what we would do with what he said, however this is not what I'm talking about, what I'm concerned about is the fact that some people just think it is acceptable to say that the bible is mankind book and God has nothing to do with it. If you can't trust the Bible than you can't trust Christianity. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 10:14:24 PM by Raylight »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
 Offline
Posts: 15,276
In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes
|
|
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2014, 10:29:21 PM » |
|
But the Bible states that the book is inspired by God, than it is the word of God.
Where does it say this? I've been looking for that passage... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis
An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.
"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2014, 10:32:06 PM » |
|
But the Bible states that the book is inspired by God, than it is the word of God.
Where does it say this? I've been looking for that passage... Indeed. Vast multitudes claim it, but none can find it .... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Justin Kissel
|
|
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2014, 10:37:09 PM » |
|
59% of Orthodox believe that the Bible is the word of God. My patron saint, Justin Popovich, among them. But I am among only part of the group which you mention, since I believe (to use their wording) that it is "the Word of God, but not literally true word for word". |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Optimist: Throw enough ideas at the wall and one is bound to stick.
Pessimist: Throw enough poo at the wall and the room is bound to stink.
Realist: You don't really need to throw things at walls to solve problems.
|
|
|
|
Raylight
|
|
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2014, 10:45:50 PM » |
|
2 Timothy 3:16 says 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, Are you guys serious ?! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Raylight
|
|
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2014, 10:46:16 PM » |
|
59% of Orthodox believe that the Bible is the word of God. My patron saint, Justin Popovich, among them. But I am among only part of the group which you mention, since I believe (to use their wording) that it is "the Word of God, but not literally true word for word". I'm the same as you. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2014, 10:48:33 PM » |
|
2 Timothy 3:16 says 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, Are you guys serious ?! Useful, but it is not everything we need to know. Orthodoxy doesn't subscribe to sola scriptura. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Raylight
|
|
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2014, 10:50:42 PM » |
|
2 Timothy 3:16 says 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, Are you guys serious ?! Useful, but it is not everything we need to know. Orthodoxy doesn't subscribe to sola scriptura. Who is on earth talking about Sola scriptura?! Sometimes seems to me that you guys don't want to say or do anything might seem Protestant, like Protestants themselves when they try to not say or do anything might seem Catholic. Believing that the Bible is the word of God is not sola scriptura, I believe that the Bible is the written word of God and Holy Tradition is the oral word of God. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 10:52:07 PM by Raylight »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2014, 10:51:59 PM » |
|
Sometimes seems to me that you guys don't want to say or do anything might seem Protestant Why would any good Orthodox want to come across as a protestant? Or, indeed, why would a Catholic do the same? |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 10:52:36 PM by LBK »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Raylight
|
|
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2014, 10:52:53 PM » |
|
Sometimes seems to me that you guys don't want to say or do anything might seem Protestant Why would any good Orthodox want to come across as a protestant? Why would any good Orthodox want to come across as an atheist. ? |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 10:53:49 PM by Raylight »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2014, 10:54:06 PM » |
|
Sometimes seems to me that you guys don't want to say or do anything might seem Protestant Why would any good Orthodox want to come across as a protestant? Why would any good Orthodox want to come across as an ATHEIST! Show me where I have said that.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Raylight
|
|
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2014, 10:55:26 PM » |
|
Sometimes seems to me that you guys don't want to say or do anything might seem Protestant Why would any good Orthodox want to come across as a protestant? Why would any good Orthodox want to come across as an ATHEIST! Show me where I have said that. When people disrespect the Bible and says that it is lying when it says that it is inspired by God, than that is the exact thing Atheists say. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2014, 10:57:35 PM » |
|
Sometimes seems to me that you guys don't want to say or do anything might seem Protestant Why would any good Orthodox want to come across as a protestant? Why would any good Orthodox want to come across as an ATHEIST! Show me where I have said that. When people disrespect the Bible and says that it is lying when it says that it is inspired by God, than that is the exact thing Atheists say. There is a major difference between a book inspired by God, and calling it "God's Word", excluding anything else as worthy of belief by Christians. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 10:58:58 PM by LBK »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Raylight
|
|
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2014, 10:59:55 PM » |
|
Sometimes seems to me that you guys don't want to say or do anything might seem Protestant Why would any good Orthodox want to come across as a protestant? Why would any good Orthodox want to come across as an ATHEIST! Show me where I have said that. When people disrespect the Bible and says that it is lying when it says that it is inspired by God, than that is the exact thing Atheists say. There is a major difference between a book inspired by God, and calling it "God's Word". How?! Inspired by God means it is the word of God, but again, I'm not saying every word is God's words, but in general sense it the God's word. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
Offline
Posts: 15,276
In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes
|
|
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2014, 11:02:25 PM » |
|
2 Timothy 3:16 says 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, Are you guys serious ?! But it doesn't say what Scripture is "Scripture" in the way you're talking about it--as the word of God. What is "all Scripture"? What does "all" refer to? Which books? Hindus have Scriptures too, are these a part of "all Scripture"? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis
An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.
"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2014, 11:03:04 PM » |
|
Sometimes seems to me that you guys don't want to say or do anything might seem Protestant Why would any good Orthodox want to come across as a protestant? Why would any good Orthodox want to come across as an ATHEIST! Show me where I have said that. When people disrespect the Bible and says that it is lying when it says that it is inspired by God, than that is the exact thing Atheists say. There is a major difference between a book inspired by God, and calling it "God's Word". How?! Inspired by God means it is the word of God, but again, I'm not saying every word is God's words, but in general sense it the God's word. The trouble is that "the word of God" has very different meanings to Orthodox, to Catholics, and to protestants. This is why many such surveys are meaningless. You will do well to not waste your time with such things, and concentrate on your own salvation. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Raylight
|
|
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2014, 11:07:02 PM » |
|
2 Timothy 3:16 says 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, Are you guys serious ?! But it doesn't say what Scripture is "Scripture" in the way you're talking about it--as the word of God. What is "all Scripture"? What does "all" refer to? Which books? Hindus have Scriptures too, are these a part of "all Scripture"? It is not science, we know what meant by "Scripture", Paul was talking to a believer like him, both knew what meant by that word. Do you really think that Paul meant all holy books in the world are the "Scripture" ?! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2014, 11:09:50 PM » |
|
You're forgetting that most of what we all and accept as the New Testament wasn't written at the time that Paul wrote those words to Timothy. For decades, Christian teaching was passed on by word of mouth.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 11:10:37 PM by LBK »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Raylight
|
|
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2014, 11:11:44 PM » |
|
You're forgetting that most of what we all and accept as the New Testament wasn't written at the time that Paul wrote those words to Timothy.
I know and he must meant the OT. Anyway, my point of this thread is not to argue about whether the Bible is the word of God or not. But with the numbers above, could we say that Evangelicals have more respect for the Bible than Orthodox/Catholics ? I mean how would you answer a Protestant if said to you that they respect the Bible more than Orthodox for example ? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Raylight
|
|
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2014, 11:12:50 PM » |
|
You're forgetting that most of what we all and accept as the New Testament wasn't written at the time that Paul wrote those words to Timothy. For decades, Christian teaching was passed on by word of mouth.
True, and that is what called Holy Tradition, therefor taking the Bible alone without Tradition is not the full picture. So yes, Bible + Holy Tradition = God's word. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2014, 11:14:22 PM » |
|
You're forgetting that most of what we all and accept as the New Testament wasn't written at the time that Paul wrote those words to Timothy.
I know and he must meant the OT. Anyway, my point of this thread is not to argue about whether the Bible is the word of God or not. But with the numbers above, could we say that Evangelicals have more respect for the Bible than Orthodox/Catholics ? I mean how would you answer a Protestant if said to you that they respect the Bible more than Orthodox for example ? The highest respect for the Bible is to respect and follow the true teachings within it. Can you say that all the thousands of protestant sects, with their multitude of contradictory teachings, do this? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Raylight
|
|
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2014, 11:18:36 PM » |
|
You're forgetting that most of what we all and accept as the New Testament wasn't written at the time that Paul wrote those words to Timothy.
I know and he must meant the OT. Anyway, my point of this thread is not to argue about whether the Bible is the word of God or not. But with the numbers above, could we say that Evangelicals have more respect for the Bible than Orthodox/Catholics ? I mean how would you answer a Protestant if said to you that they respect the Bible more than Orthodox for example ? The highest respect for the Bible is to respect and follow the true teachings within it. Can you say that all the thousands of protestant sects, with their multitude of contradictory teachings, do this? They don't, I mean the fact that some of them take the Bible so literally is disrespectful, to use the Bible as Science book is also disrespect to the Bible, also changing some of it's words is huge mistake and I didn't forget that they took 7 books away from it. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
DeniseDenise
|
|
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2014, 11:19:52 PM » |
|
I know and he must meant the OT.
Anyway, my point of this thread is not to argue about whether the Bible is the word of God or not. But with the numbers above, could we say that Evangelicals have more respect for the Bible than Orthodox/Catholics ? I mean how would you answer a Protestant if said to you that they respect the Bible more than Orthodox for example ?
No...you can say that some people went and took a survey, which may or may not have been representative of every member of each of the groups....and here are the results of that. You can then go on to draw conclusions about that, but without any idea how representational or accurate the survey was or the sample size...and a million other things... It's just speculation and conjecture with a side of 'oh my those <insert group name here> don't believe how we do, lets be scandalized' |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 11:20:13 PM by DeniseDenise »
|
Logged
|
Please secure your own oxygen mask before assisting other passengers.
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2014, 11:26:23 PM » |
|
I know and he must meant the OT.
Anyway, my point of this thread is not to argue about whether the Bible is the word of God or not. But with the numbers above, could we say that Evangelicals have more respect for the Bible than Orthodox/Catholics ? I mean how would you answer a Protestant if said to you that they respect the Bible more than Orthodox for example ?
No...you can say that some people went and took a survey, which may or may not have been representative of every member of each of the groups....and here are the results of that. You can then go on to draw conclusions about that, but without any idea how representational or accurate the survey was or the sample size...and a million other things... It's just speculation and conjecture with a side of 'oh my those <insert group name here> don't believe how we do, lets be scandalized' Exactly. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
Offline
Posts: 15,276
In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes
|
|
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2014, 11:35:12 PM » |
|
It is not science, we know what meant by "Scripture", Paul was talking to a believer like him, both knew what meant by that word. Do you really think that Paul meant all holy books in the world are the "Scripture" ?!
I'm asking you. You're the one saying that St Paul said that "all Scripture" is inspired. Which Scripture? You claim that St Paul must have meant the Old Testament. Very good. So we know that the OT is inspired because St Paul said so. That still leaves the New Testament. How do we know the NT is Scripture? Obviously St Paul wasn't talking about the NT if it didn't yet exist. And since it didn't yet exist, can we really trust St Paul when he talks about the OT? On what basis? Because he's a Jew and the Jews accepted the OT? Jews don't accept the NT, so maybe we shouldn't either...apparently they are able to tell us for certain that some books are Scripture, but they definitely agree the NT is not. Scripture doesn't tell us about the Bible as we know it. There are books where it says "Thus says the LORD", or "All Scripture is inspired", or "Blessed is the man who hears the words of this book", but those have to do with the individual books, not the entire collection. So we're back to the original question. You say "we know what (is) meant by 'Scripture'". How? How do we know that? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis
An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.
"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
|
|
|
|
Raylight
|
|
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2014, 11:42:02 PM » |
|
It is not science, we know what meant by "Scripture", Paul was talking to a believer like him, both knew what meant by that word. Do you really think that Paul meant all holy books in the world are the "Scripture" ?!
I'm asking you. You're the one saying that St Paul said that "all Scripture" is inspired. Which Scripture? You claim that St Paul must have meant the Old Testament. Very good. So we know that the OT is inspired because St Paul said so. That still leaves the New Testament. How do we know the NT is Scripture? Obviously St Paul wasn't talking about the NT if it didn't yet exist. And since it didn't yet exist, can we really trust St Paul when he talks about the OT? On what basis? Because he's a Jew and the Jews accepted the OT? Jews don't accept the NT, so maybe we shouldn't either...apparently they are able to tell us for certain that some books are Scripture, but they definitely agree the NT is not. Scripture doesn't tell us about the Bible as we know it. There are books where it says "Thus says the LORD", or "All Scripture is inspired", or "Blessed is the man who hears the words of this book", but those have to do with the individual books, not the entire collection. So we're back to the original question. You say "we know what (is) meant by 'Scripture'". How? How do we know that? You know that all what you said may lead me to question everything about my faith! Why would I trust Christianity if I can't trust the Bible ? Seriously, why would I believe there was a man called Jesus who died for me on the cross ?! Maybe there was a man called Jesus but he never said what the Bible says he said, maybe he died and that it, he never rose from the dead. Why should I believe in Jesus if I can't trust what the Bible said about him ? I'm asking seriously here. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2014, 11:50:16 PM » |
|
It is not science, we know what meant by "Scripture", Paul was talking to a believer like him, both knew what meant by that word. Do you really think that Paul meant all holy books in the world are the "Scripture" ?!
I'm asking you. You're the one saying that St Paul said that "all Scripture" is inspired. Which Scripture? You claim that St Paul must have meant the Old Testament. Very good. So we know that the OT is inspired because St Paul said so. That still leaves the New Testament. How do we know the NT is Scripture? Obviously St Paul wasn't talking about the NT if it didn't yet exist. And since it didn't yet exist, can we really trust St Paul when he talks about the OT? On what basis? Because he's a Jew and the Jews accepted the OT? Jews don't accept the NT, so maybe we shouldn't either...apparently they are able to tell us for certain that some books are Scripture, but they definitely agree the NT is not. Scripture doesn't tell us about the Bible as we know it. There are books where it says "Thus says the LORD", or "All Scripture is inspired", or "Blessed is the man who hears the words of this book", but those have to do with the individual books, not the entire collection. So we're back to the original question. You say "we know what (is) meant by 'Scripture'". How? How do we know that? You know that all what you said may lead me to question everything about my faith! Why would I trust Christianity if I can't trust the Bible ? Seriously, why would I believe there was a man called Jesus who died for me on the cross ?! Maybe there was a man called Jesus but he never said what the Bible says he said, maybe he died and that it, he never rose from the dead. Why should I believe in Jesus if I can't trust what the Bible said about him ? I'm asking seriously here. Calm down, Raylight. And stay away from the internet for a few days. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Gorazd
|
|
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2014, 11:51:00 PM » |
|
As an Orthodox Christian, I trust my Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Raylight
|
|
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2014, 11:53:19 PM » |
|
It is not science, we know what meant by "Scripture", Paul was talking to a believer like him, both knew what meant by that word. Do you really think that Paul meant all holy books in the world are the "Scripture" ?!
I'm asking you. You're the one saying that St Paul said that "all Scripture" is inspired. Which Scripture? You claim that St Paul must have meant the Old Testament. Very good. So we know that the OT is inspired because St Paul said so. That still leaves the New Testament. How do we know the NT is Scripture? Obviously St Paul wasn't talking about the NT if it didn't yet exist. And since it didn't yet exist, can we really trust St Paul when he talks about the OT? On what basis? Because he's a Jew and the Jews accepted the OT? Jews don't accept the NT, so maybe we shouldn't either...apparently they are able to tell us for certain that some books are Scripture, but they definitely agree the NT is not. Scripture doesn't tell us about the Bible as we know it. There are books where it says "Thus says the LORD", or "All Scripture is inspired", or "Blessed is the man who hears the words of this book", but those have to do with the individual books, not the entire collection. So we're back to the original question. You say "we know what (is) meant by 'Scripture'". How? How do we know that? You know that all what you said may lead me to question everything about my faith! Why would I trust Christianity if I can't trust the Bible ? Seriously, why would I believe there was a man called Jesus who died for me on the cross ?! Maybe there was a man called Jesus but he never said what the Bible says he said, maybe he died and that it, he never rose from the dead. Why should I believe in Jesus if I can't trust what the Bible said about him ? I'm asking seriously here. Calm down, Raylight. And stay away from the internet for a few days. I'm clam LBK  No worries I'm not going to lose my faith in God as I trust the Bible, not in an Evangelical way of trust, but I trust that what God has to say to me is in the Bible and the Holy Tradition, both of them tell me what God wants me to know. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2014, 11:55:46 PM » |
|
I trust that what God has to say to me is in the Bible and the Holy Tradition, both of them tell me what God wants me to know. You need the Church to guide you in understanding both the Bible and Tradition. You can't do it on your own, especially at your stage. Seriously. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 11:56:21 PM by LBK »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Auntie Oak
Posts: 4,040
|
|
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2014, 12:06:34 AM » |
|
59% of Orthodox believe that the Bible is the word of God. My patron saint, Justin Popovich, among them. But I am among only part of the group which you mention, since I believe (to use their wording) that it is "the Word of God, but not literally true word for word". Same. I absolutely believe Scripture (as determined by tradition/liturgical usage) to be the inspired word of God, but not every single passage's literal meaning. Dei Verbum, etc. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
|
|
|
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
Offline
Posts: 15,276
In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes
|
|
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2014, 12:36:04 AM » |
|
You know that all what you said may lead me to question everything about my faith! Why would I trust Christianity if I can't trust the Bible ? I'm not telling you not to trust the Bible. But you can't trust the Bible just because you think the Bible vouches for itself, because it doesn't. The community vouches for the Bible: that community is the Church. Seriously, why would I believe there was a man called Jesus who died for me on the cross ?! Because after meeting that man, twelve men spent the rest of their adult lives preaching that message and vouching for its authenticity with their blood as they were crucified, thrown off buildings, beheaded, flayed alive, sawn in two, etc. Because through the name of that man, the sick were healed, demons were cast out, the dead were raised, and believers were no longer afraid of death. Because one encounter with him converted a persecutor into a believer. Because in every age people who believe as they did perform the same works, because the same Jesus works in and through them. You don't believe in it because of a book. You believe in it because he's alive and well within the community of believers which bears witness to him. Part of that witness involves a book. Maybe there was a man called Jesus but he never said what the Bible says he said, maybe he died and that it, he never rose from the dead. Why should I believe in Jesus if I can't trust what the Bible said about him ? I'm asking seriously here.
Again, because people believed him before that book was written. They believed for other reasons that were no less meaningful or powerful. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis
An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.
"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
|
|
|
|
Raylight
|
|
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2014, 12:42:01 AM » |
|
You know that all what you said may lead me to question everything about my faith! Why would I trust Christianity if I can't trust the Bible ? I'm not telling you not to trust the Bible. But you can't trust the Bible just because you think the Bible vouches for itself, because it doesn't. The community vouches for the Bible: that community is the Church. Seriously, why would I believe there was a man called Jesus who died for me on the cross ?! Because after meeting that man, twelve men spent the rest of their adult lives preaching that message and vouching for its authenticity with their blood as they were crucified, thrown off buildings, beheaded, flayed alive, sawn in two, etc. Because through the name of that man, the sick were healed, demons were cast out, the dead were raised, and believers were no longer afraid of death. Because one encounter with him converted a persecutor into a believer. Because in every age people who believe as they did perform the same works, because the same Jesus works in and through them. You don't believe in it because of a book. You believe in it because he's alive and well within the community of believers which bears witness to him. Part of that witness involves a book. Maybe there was a man called Jesus but he never said what the Bible says he said, maybe he died and that it, he never rose from the dead. Why should I believe in Jesus if I can't trust what the Bible said about him ? I'm asking seriously here.
Again, because people believed him before that book was written. They believed for other reasons that were no less meaningful or powerful. +1000000 |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Maximum Bob
|
|
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2014, 01:06:09 AM » |
|
As to why we can't get shook up about the survey for the same reason this thread has gone all the places it has.
There's so much to define, so much to understand about what the people being asked the survey questions understand about the questions being asked of them, we can't assume that everyone answering these questions is thinking the same thing.
Surveys only have meaning if they compare apples to apples. This survey, despite asking everyone the same questions likely doesn't take the potential for different understanding of those questions into account. In so doing it's likely comparing apples to, well ( name your fruit of choice here).
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Prov. 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.
Psalm 37:23 The Lord guides a man safely in the way he should go.
|
|
|
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Auntie Oak
Posts: 4,040
|
|
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2014, 02:24:22 AM » |
|
You know that all what you said may lead me to question everything about my faith! Why would I trust Christianity if I can't trust the Bible ? I'm not telling you not to trust the Bible. But you can't trust the Bible just because you think the Bible vouches for itself, because it doesn't. The community vouches for the Bible: that community is the Church. Seriously, why would I believe there was a man called Jesus who died for me on the cross ?! Because after meeting that man, twelve men spent the rest of their adult lives preaching that message and vouching for its authenticity with their blood as they were crucified, thrown off buildings, beheaded, flayed alive, sawn in two, etc. Because through the name of that man, the sick were healed, demons were cast out, the dead were raised, and believers were no longer afraid of death. Because one encounter with him converted a persecutor into a believer. Because in every age people who believe as they did perform the same works, because the same Jesus works in and through them. You don't believe in it because of a book. You believe in it because he's alive and well within the community of believers which bears witness to him. Part of that witness involves a book. Maybe there was a man called Jesus but he never said what the Bible says he said, maybe he died and that it, he never rose from the dead. Why should I believe in Jesus if I can't trust what the Bible said about him ? I'm asking seriously here.
Again, because people believed him before that book was written. They believed for other reasons that were no less meaningful or powerful. +1 |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
|
|
|
thethinker
Jr. Member
Offline
Posts: 73
|
|
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2014, 11:12:21 AM » |
|
The Word of God is not a book, but a Person. Think about it, Raylight.
How do you know this? |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 11:12:37 AM by thethinker »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
xOrthodox4Christx
|
|
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2014, 11:34:18 AM » |
|
The Word of God is not a book, but a Person. Think about it, Raylight.
How do you know this? Uhh... It's kinda what Christianity teaches. Islam teaches it too.  Hell, even Hellenistic Judaism believed in the idea of the human Logos before Christianity. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 11:34:55 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
|
Logged
|
"[The Lord] shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3)
|
|
|
|
Justin Kissel
|
|
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2014, 11:38:43 AM » |
|
As I mentioned earlier, my patron saint, the traditionally-minded Justin Popovich, didn't seem to have a problem with calling the Scripture the word of God. How To Read the Bible and Why"Because every word of God contains the eternal Word of God..." Just because Jesus was the word of God that doesn't mean the Scripture can't be in a somewhat different sense. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Optimist: Throw enough ideas at the wall and one is bound to stick.
Pessimist: Throw enough poo at the wall and the room is bound to stink.
Realist: You don't really need to throw things at walls to solve problems.
|
|
|
Laird
Not yet able to attend an Orthodox Church
Sr. Member
Offline
Faith: Inquirer (Catechumen soon hopefully)
Jurisdiction: Baptist
Posts: 230
Lord, have mercy on me
|
|
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2014, 12:13:30 PM » |
|
Are you guys seriously challenging whether Scripture is the Word of God? Scripture being the word of God does not negate Jesus or Tradition from being the word of God, it is only Protestants who view Scripture exclusively as the word of God (and Jesus). Also, why are you guys treating Raylight like a SS Protestant when he clearly is not? This seems kinda anti-Protestant to me.
I am concerned about that survey. Though it's probably because Protestants and Orthodox have different views on what and what isn't the word of God.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
katherine 2001
|
|
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2014, 12:22:13 PM » |
|
2 Timothy 3:16 says 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, Are you guys serious ?! But it doesn't say what Scripture is "Scripture" in the way you're talking about it--as the word of God. What is "all Scripture"? What does "all" refer to? Which books? Hindus have Scriptures too, are these a part of "all Scripture"? It is not science, we know what meant by "Scripture", Paul was talking to a believer like him, both knew what meant by that word. Do you really think that Paul meant all holy books in the world are the "Scripture" ?! The Scriptures that the Evangelicals use has 10 less books than the Scriptures that the Orthodox use. Seems like part of their Bible is missing. If the Bible is God's Word (as they claim), then missing 10 books is a huge issue. Also, the passage quoted would have just been the Old Testament. Martin Luther wanted to remove books from the New Testament. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
xOrthodox4Christx
|
|
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2014, 12:29:04 PM » |
|
Are you guys seriously challenging whether Scripture is the Word of God? Scripture being the word of God does not negate Jesus or Tradition from being the word of God, it is only Protestants who view Scripture exclusively as the word of God (and Jesus). Also, why are you guys treating Raylight like a SS Protestant when he clearly is not? This seems kinda anti-Protestant to me.
I am concerned about that survey. Though it's probably because Protestants and Orthodox have different views on what and what isn't the word of God.
Scripture is the words of men inspired by God. God didn't literally say every word of Scripture. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"[The Lord] shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3)
|
|
|
thethinker
Jr. Member
Offline
Posts: 73
|
|
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2014, 12:32:26 PM » |
|
Uhh... It's kinda what Christianity teaches. Islam teaches it too. Hell, even Hellenistic Judaism believed in the idea of the human Logos before Christianity. Okay, so you know that word of God is a person because the Christianity and Hellenistic Judaism teaches it. How does Christianity and Hellenistic Judaism know? |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 12:33:19 PM by thethinker »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
xOrthodox4Christx
|
|
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2014, 12:33:38 PM » |
|
Uhh... It's kinda what Christianity teaches. Islam teaches it too. Hell, even Hellenistic Judaism believed in the idea of the human Logos before Christianity. Okay, so you know that word of God is a person because the Christianity and Hellenistic Judaism teaches it. How does Christianity and Hellenistic Jusaism know? Dunno. Ask Philo of Alexandria. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"[The Lord] shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3)
|
|
|
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,473
EXTERMINATE!
|
|
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2014, 12:57:27 PM » |
|
Uhh... It's kinda what Christianity teaches. Islam teaches it too. Hell, even Hellenistic Judaism believed in the idea of the human Logos before Christianity. Okay, so you know that word of God is a person because the Christianity and Hellenistic Judaism teaches it. How does Christianity and Hellenistic Judaism know? Divine revelation |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,473
EXTERMINATE!
|
|
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2014, 12:58:53 PM » |
|
Are you guys seriously challenging whether Scripture is the Word of God? Scripture being the word of God does not negate Jesus or Tradition from being the word of God, it is only Protestants who view Scripture exclusively as the word of God (and Jesus). Also, why are you guys treating Raylight like a SS Protestant when he clearly is not? This seems kinda anti-Protestant to me.
I am concerned about that survey. Though it's probably because Protestants and Orthodox have different views on what and what isn't the word of God.
Scripture is the words of men inspired by God. God didn't literally say every word of Scripture. And yet because it's inspired by God, it is possible and even right to call Scripture the word of God (while also calling Christ the Word of God). |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Rambam
|
|
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2014, 01:10:40 PM » |
|
Scrolling through this thread, I had a question pop into my mind:
What's the purpose of the Bible? (I don't think anyone's spoken on this yet.)
Honestly, after reading the posts collected here, it sounds like the Bible may just be more trouble than its worth -- with all these protestants running around and reading it on their own and whatnot.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Justin Kissel
|
|
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2014, 01:13:10 PM » |
|
Scrolling through this thread, I had a question pop into my mind:
What's the purpose of the Bible? How one person answered this: |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Optimist: Throw enough ideas at the wall and one is bound to stick.
Pessimist: Throw enough poo at the wall and the room is bound to stink.
Realist: You don't really need to throw things at walls to solve problems.
|
|
|
Laird
Not yet able to attend an Orthodox Church
Sr. Member
Offline
Faith: Inquirer (Catechumen soon hopefully)
Jurisdiction: Baptist
Posts: 230
Lord, have mercy on me
|
|
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2014, 02:21:50 PM » |
|
Are you guys seriously challenging whether Scripture is the Word of God? Scripture being the word of God does not negate Jesus or Tradition from being the word of God, it is only Protestants who view Scripture exclusively as the word of God (and Jesus). Also, why are you guys treating Raylight like a SS Protestant when he clearly is not? This seems kinda anti-Protestant to me.
I am concerned about that survey. Though it's probably because Protestants and Orthodox have different views on what and what isn't the word of God.
Scripture is the words of men inspired by God. God didn't literally say every word of Scripture. Yes... but that doesn't mean we can't call Scripture the word of God. The Scriptures both are the word of God and are about the Word of God, Jesus Christ. They are God's revelation of himself, the word of God in the words of men. http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Scripture |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
systratiotes
Newbie
Offline
Faith: Primitive Christian
Jurisdiction: Universal
Posts: 6
|
|
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2014, 02:02:46 PM » |
|
That is an interesting survey. Thanks for posting it.
One thing I will say, of whatever evils we might accuse the Protestants; please realize that without them first publishing Bibles that people could posses as their very own, neither Orthodox nor Catholic faithful would own personal copies of the Bible today.
Personally I take a very high view of scripture because very much stands upon it's authority. I'm not able to explain how God inspired the men who wrote the first manuscripts. Nobody can. But I think we have to accept as a matter of faith that the Bible has authority for our lives because it is the product of God's mind given to communicate truth to feeble persons as me.
I am convinced the Apostle Paul wrote the epistle we call Second Timothy and in 3:16 when he wrote that "all scripture is God-breathed", he meant what we call the "Old Covenant According to the Seventy." That would have been the scripture that Greek speaking Timothy would have known from a child. Paul's own writings show that he personally was thoroughly saturated with the text according to the Seventy. That was the Bible the Apostle Paul and Timothy knew.
The writers of the New Testament being inspired by the Holy Spirit cited the Seventy as the authority behind their teaching. So did the earliest Church Fathers. The earliest Church Fathers clearly believed the Holy Writings of the Seventy and the the New Testament are inspired scripture. Since the Apostles and they were witnesses closest to the biblical events, I think it appropriate to give their faith them some credit.
I take a high view of scripture and that is why I pursue a seminary education, that I might learn to handle scripture well. I am not a professional theologian but I am working toward a doctorate. As an academic I have seen modern theological agendas along with liberal theology destroy many student's high view of scripture. I think that has some bearing on the increasing degree of heterodoxy and heresy espoused by professional theologians from every denomination today.
M. Kostas, ThM
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Nicene
|
|
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2014, 05:59:08 AM » |
|
I object to both options. The bible is divinely inspired while being written by Men.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Thank you.
|
|
|
|
