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Author Topic: Large Migration of Protestants to Orthodoxy ?  (Read 1331 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2014, 06:14:37 PM »

I don't know Peter. While I would agree that it's likely that the intent is close to how you expressed things, some of the earlier phrasing seemed to have a different tone than what you expressed. That's why I questioned it, and the notion that others concluded similarly suggests it's not just imagination, but again tone is difficult to interpret in print, hence questioning rather than concluding. I for one would say I still have some baggage and perhaps even some I don't know I have, but fortunately as you say Orthodoxy is  tolerant.
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« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2014, 07:11:18 PM »

  I really appreciate all of your answers and willingness to converse with me on this board. I have some days off from work next week. I think I might try to contact a priest. I think we have 2 or 3 Greek Orthodox Churches and like 7 Coptic Orthodox Churches around where I live.
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« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2014, 10:01:23 PM »

I'm grateful that ancient Orthodox weren't rejecting pagan converts over concerns of "oh, they MIGHT want to blend some of their past baggage!" It's a really sad attitude of rejection I'm seeing on this thread.
I'm honestly not seeing any attitude of rejection. I am seeing the honest statement that once a Protestant embraces the Faith, he can no longer expect that he will be allowed to keep a hold on his Protestant ways of thinking without being challenged to drop them. The Orthodox Way does expect each adherent to experience transformation, which converts realize especially to be true. This transformation requires the shedding of baggage, of old ways of thinking and of viewing the world, in order to receive the new wine of the Orthodox Faith.

In a way, I see this as part of Christ's consistent message to repent. To follow Christ, one must repent. If a person is unwilling to repent, to cast aside all baggage received in his/her life prior to following Christ, then one cannot become a follower of Christ. This isn't an immediate process, but it's a process we must all choose daily to undergo.

That is, unfortunately, not how it was phrased. It was phrased with the tone, "we're not sure we really want Protestant converts because they MIGHT bring baggage with them." Well, to start with, everyone has baggage...both converts and cradles. We are all on a journey and none of us are there yet in this life. Orthodoxy has been very healing for me with my own baggage. However, the implication was that we might corrupt the Church or some such with our baggage. Uhm, that is why we have authorities over us and they are held to certain standards. Baggage from those born into Orthodoxy can also corrupt...again, this is why we have authorities over us and they are held to certain standards. Former Protestants aren't "taking over". I understand that the influx makes some uncomfortable, especially cradles that have little they can reach back on and say, "how do we relate to this person? Why are they so odd to us?" Sometimes, kindness and guidance can go a long way. That's part of what we are hoping for/expecting within the Church.
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« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2014, 10:35:30 PM »

My opinion in re to the op to this in America: I highly doubt it & probably Orthodoxy will decrease by about 50% in America from an already low number of adherents.
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« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2014, 10:42:01 PM »

Interesting opinion, why do you think so?
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« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2014, 11:07:39 PM »

Interesting opinion, why do you think so?
Where I live there were many Orthodox immigrants in the late 19th to early 20th c. Now the Orthodox are statistically irrelevant according to stats I saw in a local paper: The Times Leader (Wilkes-Barre, Pa.) In 2012.A local Orthodox newsletter: The Orthodox Herald mentioned in 1957, that the Orthodox were the 4th largest Christian group in America. I read a 1970 book: "The Individual & His Orthodox Church" by (Fr.) Nikon Patrinacos warning that Orthodoxy could cease to exist in America because the (then) church was unable to articulate faith to people who had become literate & educated (mostly cradles then). I have heard that there are some thriving parishes in America, so I guess it will survive.
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« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2014, 01:30:20 AM »


There is no doubt that many Protestants who are disaffected with their current tradition are looking outside theirs for answers, but are doing so in a way which is syncretic, i.e. they blend what is good with theirs with what is good from another tradition. If Protestants do come over to the Orthodox Church, there is a great tendency (and I have personally seen this many times) to bring over their Protestantism with them and "Orthodoxize" it.  They won't embrace Orthodoxy for the totality that it is and insist that some things typical of Protestants should exist alongside of the Orthodox tradition which they join.  And that will only cause confusion and chaos.
What kinds of "some things" are you talking about? And is it a matter of "won't embrace Orthodoxy for the totality that it is" or just that it takes time and sometimes people don't even know that they're still clinging to something. 

Since you asked, here is a short list, albeit incomplete.  Keep in mind that these are my observations.  Others may well corroborate, others may bat an eye.  

They want, or even demand:  

1) use of Protestant hymns in some services (they claim "well, such and such hymn, is perfectly Orthodox. It may well be, but that's not the point).
2)  lay readers.  (However, reading the epistle or OT is reserved for tonsured readers.  Wanna read?  Get tonsured.)
3)  to be on par with the priest which reeks of anti-clericalism.  (they want to read the same prayers as the priest or go where the priest goes; insist on shaking hands rather than asking for blessing)
4)   use only of the KJV for readings.  (not saying anything about this one)
5)  shorter services. (not saying anything about this one)
6)  to be absolved corporately rather than through the confessional. In other words, can't everyone just say a few common prayers together instead of having to go through the humiliation of a personal confession with the priest?
7)  use of American or English style religious music. (Blech!  Can't even hold a candle to Byzantine)
Cool  to move feast days to nearest Sundays because only Sundays are for church.
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« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2014, 01:34:56 AM »


There is no doubt that many Protestants who are disaffected with their current tradition are looking outside theirs for answers, but are doing so in a way which is syncretic, i.e. they blend what is good with theirs with what is good from another tradition. If Protestants do come over to the Orthodox Church, there is a great tendency (and I have personally seen this many times) to bring over their Protestantism with them and "Orthodoxize" it.  They won't embrace Orthodoxy for the totality that it is and insist that some things typical of Protestants should exist alongside of the Orthodox tradition which they join.  And that will only cause confusion and chaos.
What kinds of "some things" are you talking about? And is it a matter of "won't embrace Orthodoxy for the totality that it is" or just that it takes time and sometimes people don't even know that they're still clinging to something. 

Since you asked, here is a short list, albeit incomplete.  Keep in mind that these are my observations.  Others may well corroborate, others may bat an eye.  

They want, or even demand:  

1) use of Protestant hymns in some services (they claim "well, such and such hymn, is perfectly Orthodox. It may well be, but that's not the point).
2)  lay readers.  (However, reading the epistle or OT is reserved for tonsured readers.  Wanna read?  Get tonsured.)
3)  to be on par with the priest which reeks of anti-clericalism.  (they want to read the same prayers as the priest or go where the priest goes; insist on shaking hands rather than asking for blessing)
4)   use only of the KJV for readings.  (not saying anything about this one)
5)  shorter services. (not saying anything about this one)
6)  to be absolved corporately rather than through the confessional. In other words, can't everyone just say a few common prayers together instead of having to go through the humiliation of a personal confession with the priest?
7)  use of American or English style religious music. (Blech!  Can't even hold a candle to Byzantine)
8 )  to move feast days to nearest Sundays because only Sundays are for church.
How many of these things are really part of Orthodox Tradition, and how many of them are merely your personal preferences?
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« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2014, 02:23:31 PM »


There is no doubt that many Protestants who are disaffected with their current tradition are looking outside theirs for answers, but are doing so in a way which is syncretic, i.e. they blend what is good with theirs with what is good from another tradition. If Protestants do come over to the Orthodox Church, there is a great tendency (and I have personally seen this many times) to bring over their Protestantism with them and "Orthodoxize" it.  They won't embrace Orthodoxy for the totality that it is and insist that some things typical of Protestants should exist alongside of the Orthodox tradition which they join.  And that will only cause confusion and chaos.
What kinds of "some things" are you talking about? And is it a matter of "won't embrace Orthodoxy for the totality that it is" or just that it takes time and sometimes people don't even know that they're still clinging to something. 

Since you asked, here is a short list, albeit incomplete.  Keep in mind that these are my observations.  Others may well corroborate, others may bat an eye.  

They want, or even demand:  

1) use of Protestant hymns in some services (they claim "well, such and such hymn, is perfectly Orthodox. It may well be, but that's not the point).
2)  lay readers.  (However, reading the epistle or OT is reserved for tonsured readers.  Wanna read?  Get tonsured.)
3)  to be on par with the priest which reeks of anti-clericalism.  (they want to read the same prayers as the priest or go where the priest goes; insist on shaking hands rather than asking for blessing)
4)   use only of the KJV for readings.  (not saying anything about this one)
5)  shorter services. (not saying anything about this one)
6)  to be absolved corporately rather than through the confessional. In other words, can't everyone just say a few common prayers together instead of having to go through the humiliation of a personal confession with the priest?
7)  use of American or English style religious music. (Blech!  Can't even hold a candle to Byzantine)
8 )  to move feast days to nearest Sundays because only Sundays are for church.
How many of these things are really part of Orthodox Tradition, and how many of them are merely your personal preferences?

This is what observed, PtA (I ver clearly stated that) from many Protestants who come over to Orthodoxy and bring their Protestant baggage with them.  Can you tell me what I have said that is NOT part of the tradition?  Maybe it's the personal confession since we KNOW what a novelty that is.
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« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2014, 04:01:18 PM »


Since you asked, here is a short list, albeit incomplete.  Keep in mind that these are my observations.  Others may well corroborate, others may bat an eye.  

They want, or even demand:  

1) use of Protestant hymns in some services (they claim "well, such and such hymn, is perfectly Orthodox. It may well be, but that's not the point).
2)  lay readers.  (However, reading the epistle or OT is reserved for tonsured readers.  Wanna read?  Get tonsured.)
3)  to be on par with the priest which reeks of anti-clericalism.  (they want to read the same prayers as the priest or go where the priest goes; insist on shaking hands rather than asking for blessing)
4)   use only of the KJV for readings.  (not saying anything about this one)
5)  shorter services. (not saying anything about this one)
6)  to be absolved corporately rather than through the confessional. In other words, can't everyone just say a few common prayers together instead of having to go through the humiliation of a personal confession with the priest?
7)  use of American or English style religious music. (Blech!  Can't even hold a candle to Byzantine)
8 )  to move feast days to nearest Sundays because only Sundays are for church.

Your experience is quite at odds with my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience. In my own parish, we former Protestants are for the most part trying our best to distance ourselves from what you have enumerated. That being said, we must use lay readers as we have no tonsured readers (or subdeacons, or deacons, or anything else). When feast days are moved, it's only because of our small numbers that limit the overall number of services we can hold, i.e. not for the reason in your list.
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« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2014, 06:09:49 PM »


There is no doubt that many Protestants who are disaffected with their current tradition are looking outside theirs for answers, but are doing so in a way which is syncretic, i.e. they blend what is good with theirs with what is good from another tradition. If Protestants do come over to the Orthodox Church, there is a great tendency (and I have personally seen this many times) to bring over their Protestantism with them and "Orthodoxize" it.  They won't embrace Orthodoxy for the totality that it is and insist that some things typical of Protestants should exist alongside of the Orthodox tradition which they join.  And that will only cause confusion and chaos.
What kinds of "some things" are you talking about? And is it a matter of "won't embrace Orthodoxy for the totality that it is" or just that it takes time and sometimes people don't even know that they're still clinging to something. 

Since you asked, here is a short list, albeit incomplete.  Keep in mind that these are my observations.  Others may well corroborate, others may bat an eye.  

They want, or even demand:  

1) use of Protestant hymns in some services (they claim "well, such and such hymn, is perfectly Orthodox. It may well be, but that's not the point).
2)  lay readers.  (However, reading the epistle or OT is reserved for tonsured readers.  Wanna read?  Get tonsured.)
3)  to be on par with the priest which reeks of anti-clericalism.  (they want to read the same prayers as the priest or go where the priest goes; insist on shaking hands rather than asking for blessing)
4)   use only of the KJV for readings.  (not saying anything about this one)
5)  shorter services. (not saying anything about this one)
6)  to be absolved corporately rather than through the confessional. In other words, can't everyone just say a few common prayers together instead of having to go through the humiliation of a personal confession with the priest?
7)  use of American or English style religious music. (Blech!  Can't even hold a candle to Byzantine)
8 )  to move feast days to nearest Sundays because only Sundays are for church.
How many of these things are really part of Orthodox Tradition, and how many of them are merely your personal preferences?

This is what observed, PtA (I ver clearly stated that) from many Protestants who come over to Orthodoxy and bring their Protestant baggage with them.
Yes, I am aware that you are speaking of what you have observed. I'm not questioning that. I'm questioning your opposition to these specific things you call Protestant baggage.

Can you tell me what I have said that is NOT part of the tradition?
Back to my question: Can you tell me what you have addressed that IS part of the tradition and not merely your personal preference?

Maybe it's the personal confession since we KNOW what a novelty that is.
Don't waste your satire on me.
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« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2014, 06:30:26 PM »


There is no doubt that many Protestants who are disaffected with their current tradition are looking outside theirs for answers, but are doing so in a way which is syncretic, i.e. they blend what is good with theirs with what is good from another tradition. If Protestants do come over to the Orthodox Church, there is a great tendency (and I have personally seen this many times) to bring over their Protestantism with them and "Orthodoxize" it.  They won't embrace Orthodoxy for the totality that it is and insist that some things typical of Protestants should exist alongside of the Orthodox tradition which they join.  And that will only cause confusion and chaos.
What kinds of "some things" are you talking about? And is it a matter of "won't embrace Orthodoxy for the totality that it is" or just that it takes time and sometimes people don't even know that they're still clinging to something. 

Since you asked, here is a short list, albeit incomplete.  Keep in mind that these are my observations.  Others may well corroborate, others may bat an eye.  

They want, or even demand:  

1) use of Protestant hymns in some services (they claim "well, such and such hymn, is perfectly Orthodox. It may well be, but that's not the point).
2)  lay readers.  (However, reading the epistle or OT is reserved for tonsured readers.  Wanna read?  Get tonsured.)
3)  to be on par with the priest which reeks of anti-clericalism.  (they want to read the same prayers as the priest or go where the priest goes; insist on shaking hands rather than asking for blessing)
4)   use only of the KJV for readings.  (not saying anything about this one)
5)  shorter services. (not saying anything about this one)
6)  to be absolved corporately rather than through the confessional. In other words, can't everyone just say a few common prayers together instead of having to go through the humiliation of a personal confession with the priest?
7)  use of American or English style religious music. (Blech!  Can't even hold a candle to Byzantine)
Cool  to move feast days to nearest Sundays because only Sundays are for church.


To be honest, some of the similarities I've seen of "Protestantising" have been done by Greeks that were trying to blend with American culture and converts are the ones that protested the changes (my experience and observation) because they were trying to get away from such.
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« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2014, 01:18:37 AM »


There is no doubt that many Protestants who are disaffected with their current tradition are looking outside theirs for answers, but are doing so in a way which is syncretic, i.e. they blend what is good with theirs with what is good from another tradition. If Protestants do come over to the Orthodox Church, there is a great tendency (and I have personally seen this many times) to bring over their Protestantism with them and "Orthodoxize" it.  They won't embrace Orthodoxy for the totality that it is and insist that some things typical of Protestants should exist alongside of the Orthodox tradition which they join.  And that will only cause confusion and chaos.
What kinds of "some things" are you talking about? And is it a matter of "won't embrace Orthodoxy for the totality that it is" or just that it takes time and sometimes people don't even know that they're still clinging to something. 

Since you asked, here is a short list, albeit incomplete.  Keep in mind that these are my observations.  Others may well corroborate, others may bat an eye.  

They want, or even demand:  

1) use of Protestant hymns in some services (they claim "well, such and such hymn, is perfectly Orthodox. It may well be, but that's not the point).
2)  lay readers.  (However, reading the epistle or OT is reserved for tonsured readers.  Wanna read?  Get tonsured.)
3)  to be on par with the priest which reeks of anti-clericalism.  (they want to read the same prayers as the priest or go where the priest goes; insist on shaking hands rather than asking for blessing)
4)   use only of the KJV for readings.  (not saying anything about this one)
5)  shorter services. (not saying anything about this one)
6)  to be absolved corporately rather than through the confessional. In other words, can't everyone just say a few common prayers together instead of having to go through the humiliation of a personal confession with the priest?
7)  use of American or English style religious music. (Blech!  Can't even hold a candle to Byzantine)
Cool  to move feast days to nearest Sundays because only Sundays are for church.


To be honest, some of the similarities I've seen of "Protestantising" have been done by Greeks that were trying to blend with American culture and converts are the ones that protested the changes (my experience and observation) because they were trying to get away from such.


Face it. Folks gotta have something to complain about, and converts make a nice scapegoat to blame issues on.
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« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2014, 01:41:41 AM »

Face it. Folks gotta have something to complain about, and converts make a nice scapegoat to blame issues on.

Yeah, just leave us alone already.  Every time one of you comes to my church and I have to welcome you and help you not offend us by doing something wrong, you interrupt my hesychia.  Get your own church.

I'm kidding.
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« Reply #59 on: February 03, 2014, 01:44:26 AM »


There is no doubt that many Protestants who are disaffected with their current tradition are looking outside theirs for answers, but are doing so in a way which is syncretic, i.e. they blend what is good with theirs with what is good from another tradition. If Protestants do come over to the Orthodox Church, there is a great tendency (and I have personally seen this many times) to bring over their Protestantism with them and "Orthodoxize" it.  They won't embrace Orthodoxy for the totality that it is and insist that some things typical of Protestants should exist alongside of the Orthodox tradition which they join.  And that will only cause confusion and chaos.
What kinds of "some things" are you talking about? And is it a matter of "won't embrace Orthodoxy for the totality that it is" or just that it takes time and sometimes people don't even know that they're still clinging to something.  

Since you asked, here is a short list, albeit incomplete.  Keep in mind that these are my observations.  Others may well corroborate, others may bat an eye.  

They want, or even demand:  

1) use of Protestant hymns in some services (they claim "well, such and such hymn, is perfectly Orthodox. It may well be, but that's not the point).
2)  lay readers.  (However, reading the epistle or OT is reserved for tonsured readers.  Wanna read?  Get tonsured.)
3)  to be on par with the priest which reeks of anti-clericalism.  (they want to read the same prayers as the priest or go where the priest goes; insist on shaking hands rather than asking for blessing)
4)   use only of the KJV for readings.  (not saying anything about this one)
5)  shorter services. (not saying anything about this one)
6)  to be absolved corporately rather than through the confessional. In other words, can't everyone just say a few common prayers together instead of having to go through the humiliation of a personal confession with the priest?
7)  use of American or English style religious music. (Blech!  Can't even hold a candle to Byzantine)
Cool  to move feast days to nearest Sundays because only Sundays are for church.
Thanks scamandrius, that's quite a list you've got there, one I'm glad my own experience doesn't bear out. Not to say at all that you haven't seen what you've seen just glad I haven't seen the same. So I would agree based on what you've listed that it would seem to be something intentional and something that largely would also be distasteful to me.  Fortunately it's not as universal as I perceived you to be implying in the original comment.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 01:45:19 AM by Maximum Bob » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2014, 02:01:39 AM »

Interesting opinion, why do you think so?
Where I live there were many Orthodox immigrants in the late 19th to early 20th c. Now the Orthodox are statistically irrelevant according to stats I saw in a local paper: The Times Leader (Wilkes-Barre, Pa.) In 2012.A local Orthodox newsletter: The Orthodox Herald mentioned in 1957, that the Orthodox were the 4th largest Christian group in America. I read a 1970 book: "The Individual & His Orthodox Church" by (Fr.) Nikon Patrinacos warning that Orthodoxy could cease to exist in America because the (then) church was unable to articulate faith to people who had become literate & educated (mostly cradles then). I have heard that there are some thriving parishes in America, so I guess it will survive.
Okay, at least according to this (http://www.thearda.com/Denoms/D_1229.asp) page from the Association of Religion Data Archives which I got to from the US census page, we Antiochians seem to be going up. And according to this (http://religioninsights.org/resources/why-us-orthodox-church-continues-grow) page from Insights into Religion also got to from the US Census page we seem not to be alone.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 02:10:11 AM by Maximum Bob » Logged

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« Reply #61 on: February 03, 2014, 12:41:04 PM »

Reply to Max. Bob # 60:

This is good news indeed & maybe the corner has been turned & I have to catch up & notice! God bless.
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