Author Topic: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014  (Read 26581 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #90 on: January 30, 2014, 01:42:00 PM »
When one observes these "ecumenical" events on tape it is interesting that while protestants and catholics will close their eyes and bow their heads generally, the orthodox clerics usually do not, indicating they are present and keeping silent respectful of the rights of others to pray but do are not actually participating actively in the prayer. The other thing you note is that when they pray they pray as Orthodox Christians utilizing all orthodox prayer forms and practices. You see this in the United States during the 911 memorial services and various services in times of national or state need. This practice can even be found in the tines of the Orthodox state dating back to Byzantium. This is an expectation of citizens  of a nation regardless of the denomination.

(Inappropriate Latin phrase indicating disagreement removed - Mor)

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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #91 on: January 30, 2014, 01:43:03 PM »
Again: any canons about ambo usage?

I'll see what I can find, though I'm not sure if a canon is necessary for such things.  When did universal and long-standing custom become worthless in the Orthodox Church?  There's no canon prohibiting a subdeacon from wearing an epigonation, but who cares?  It's just not done.
As I said, in the EO Church, there is ikonomia even about things regulated in canons. So, really, why can't we exercise ikonomia on things that are not even codified?
In fact, I wonder how the practice is in the OO church. I think I have seen a Coptic lay theologian teaching about Scripture from the ambo. 
   
 If you accept Roman Catholic orders but not Protestant orders, say so and own it.
I neither accept nor reject orders outside the canonical Orthodox Church, I rather leave them to divine grace. And btw, I would have acccepted if the female protestant church president who was present and said a few words of greeting would have given a sermon from the ambo, provided the words were agreed upon beforehand and there is nothing offensive to Orthodoxy.

I see the ambo as an honoured place to speak from in the church, but not in the altar. If such an honour can be given to political leaders, why not to the leader of another religious community? Please remember that in European countries such as Belgium, we have an overwhelmingly non-religious population and one of the chief purposes of such meetings between the leaders of all Christian communities is to coordinate the representation of Christian interests before the government.



 If it's a good thing to participate in these functions and it involves zero watering down of the faith, very well.  I'm not necessarily against any of those, just make the case.  But it's not fair to paint anti-ecumenists, people "outside the canonical  Church", etc. as paranoid fanatics when people within the "canonical Church" resort to less than honest means to defend some things which go on at these events.        
I do not accept to be qualified as dishonest, because 1) I was NOT talking about "these events" in general, but specifically about the one now in Belgium. 2) I used the official press release as my source.

So, my conclusion is: An EO vespers service was celebrated by EO clergy in the presence of non-Orthodox Christian leaders. Afterwards, a sermon was preached by the local RC archbishop. (Look it up, there is no sermon within EO vesper services...)

And really, it's a pity that OO Christians are joining the canonical EO-bashing recently. Btw, I understand that the OO church has no universal primate, but that does not mean that office shouldn't exist in the Church. On the contrary, this would be a wonderful opportunity for the OO to recognise the primacy of the Bishop of Constantinople according to the Ravenna document over all Orthodoxy.

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #92 on: January 30, 2014, 01:48:23 PM »
And really, it's a pity that OO Christians are joining the canonical EO-bashing recently. Btw, I understand that the OO church has no universal primate, but that does not mean that office shouldn't exist in the Church. On the contrary, this would be a wonderful opportunity for the OO to recognise the primacy of the Bishop of Constantinople according to the Ravenna document over all Orthodoxy.

You're not making your "universal primate" sound any more palatable with these sorts of comments.

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #93 on: January 30, 2014, 02:04:43 PM »
Or, to boil it down even more... it might not have been such a good idea to let the RC archbishop give a sermon there, but this is not a "False union is imminent!" moment.

Sure, that too.  I mean, no offence, but mainstream Eastern Orthodoxy is so "immature" nowadays that no such union could take place.  You don't even always get along with each other.  :P 

How true!
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #94 on: January 30, 2014, 04:00:36 PM »
As I said, in the EO Church, there is ikonomia even about things regulated in canons. So, really, why can't we exercise ikonomia on things that are not even codified?
In fact, I wonder how the practice is in the OO church. I think I have seen a Coptic lay theologian teaching about Scripture from the ambo. 

If it was an exercise of economy, then say so.  While the propriety of that exception might be debated (it will always be so on the internet), at least it wouldn't call into question the authority of the bishop to apply economy or question/deny liturgical discipline.  But most of the comments surrounding this particular issue have focused on calling into question the nature of the service, the function of the ambon, the ecclesiastical status of those who object, etc.  That's just not convincing. 

Regarding OO practice, I believe I referred to that in an earlier post of mine: the ambon is reserved for the preaching of the Gospel by those in major orders.  A deacon can preach from it, but a subdeacon must preach from the floor (technically, it could be argued that minor clerics can preach from the first step of the ambon, but in practice this does not happen often).  Non-Orthodox clergy also speak from the floor, if they are present and invited to speak, and I've seen Orthodox clerics in such situations opting to preach from the floor as well rather than inviting the non-Orthodox to occupy a place they ought not lest it confuse the faithful.  That's the general practice. 

Coptic practice doesn't vary from this in my experience; if it does, I suspect that what you think is the ambon might not be so, or "deacon" is interpreted more loosely than it would be in Eastern Orthodoxy (and so what looks like a "lay theologian" may not be so "lay"), or it was an application of economy.  But it's hard to say when your testimony is "I think I have seen".         
   
Quote
I see the ambo as an honoured place to speak from in the church, but not in the altar.

It doesn't matter what you see the ambon as, what matters is how the Church sees it, and I think universal, long-standing liturgical practice demonstrates that it is considered part of the altar, whether or not it is "outside" the iconostasis/curtain.  The strict division between altar and ambon appears to be a Western/Roman Catholic distinction based on the reading I've done.  It's hardly so in Orthodox tradition.

Quote
If such an honour can be given to political leaders, why not to the leader of another religious community? Please remember that in European countries such as Belgium, we have an overwhelmingly non-religious population and one of the chief purposes of such meetings between the leaders of all Christian communities is to coordinate the representation of Christian interests before the government.
 

I'm not sure that political leaders should be allowed to speak from the ambo anymore than non-Orthodox religious leaders.  But the only example you have provided is the President of Bulgaria, who is Orthodox.  If anything, this is an economic application of various privileges traditionally accorded to Orthodox monarchs.  Since these monarchs were usually consecrated, unlike Presidents, I'm not sure such things should be done, but that's up to the Synod of the Bulgarian Church, and there's clearly some precedent being applied.  Where is the canonical precedent for allowing heterodox ministers to preach in Orthodox churches to Orthodox congregations in the presence of Orthodox bishops?   

None of this has anything to do with having ecumenical meetings so that the Christians as a whole can coordinate relations with their respective governments.  I have no objection to such meetings, to our Churches hosting them, etc.  I have no issue with cooperation among all Christians on social and charitable causes, theological dialogue, etc.  I'm not the stereotypical "anti-ecumenist" by any means.   

Quote
I do not accept to be qualified as dishonest, because 1) I was NOT talking about "these events" in general, but specifically about the one now in Belgium. 2) I used the official press release as my source.

I intentionally made mine a general comment because I wasn't targeting you alone.

Quote
So, my conclusion is: An EO vespers service was celebrated by EO clergy in the presence of non-Orthodox Christian leaders. Afterwards, a sermon was preached by the local RC archbishop. (Look it up, there is no sermon within EO vesper services...)

Very well.  Nothing about that is objectionable to me in principle.  I just don't think it's fair for some here to dismiss those who wonder why a Roman Catholic archbishop preaches from the ambon while the Protestant ministers preach from the floor: that's a reasonable question, and no one here seems to be able to answer it.  Perhaps it cannot be conclusively answered without speaking to those who organised the event, and that's OK, but I think the obfuscation makes things look more suspicious than they need to be. 

Quote
And really, it's a pity that OO Christians are joining the canonical EO-bashing recently.

No one is doing that.  A convenient canard is still a canard. 

Quote
Btw, I understand that the OO church has no universal primate, but that does not mean that office shouldn't exist in the Church. On the contrary, this would be a wonderful opportunity for the OO to recognise the primacy of the Bishop of Constantinople according to the Ravenna document over all Orthodoxy.

We are not interested in recognising the primacy of Constantinople over all Orthodoxy, we are interested in recognising the primacy of Orthodoxy over all Orthodoxy, including Constantinople.  But that is best dealt with in another thread. 

BTW, in that other thread I explained where I take issue with the EP's First Without Equals statement, but IIRC you haven't yet posted any considered critique of the position of the MP other than to say that they are wrong.  Perhaps we could take this tangent there. 
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Offline mike

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #95 on: January 30, 2014, 04:03:51 PM »
a) these things can get silly and some stupid stuff might be done, but it's unintentional and doesn't represent a watering down or muddying of the faith;
b) there's nothing important about an ambon in the Orthodox Church, so it's not a restricted area, and anyone can go up to it and speak from it without issue as long as it's not disruptive during public services;
c) the ambon is restricted to major clerics of the Orthodox Church, but an exception was made for a RC archbishop because his orders are considered valid in a way the Protestants' orders aren't.      

B) for me.

But I am more concerned he is wearing a stole. Not that it's not popular but I still do not like it.
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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #96 on: January 30, 2014, 04:03:51 PM »
You don't even always get along with each other.  :P 

We learn from the best.
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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #97 on: January 30, 2014, 04:03:51 PM »
Or, to boil it down even more... it might not have been such a good idea to let the RC archbishop give a sermon there, but this is not a "False union is imminent!" moment.

Sure, that too.  I mean, no offence, but mainstream Eastern Orthodoxy is so "immature" nowadays that no such union could take place.  You don't even always get along with each other.  :P 

How true!

Physician...
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #98 on: January 30, 2014, 05:13:57 PM »
a) these things can get silly and some stupid stuff might be done, but it's unintentional and doesn't represent a watering down or muddying of the faith;
b) there's nothing important about an ambon in the Orthodox Church, so it's not a restricted area, and anyone can go up to it and speak from it without issue as long as it's not disruptive during public services;
c) the ambon is restricted to major clerics of the Orthodox Church, but an exception was made for a RC archbishop because his orders are considered valid in a way the Protestants' orders aren't.      

B) for me.

But I am more concerned he is wearing a stole. Not that it's not popular but I still do not like it.

...since I am not a liturgist.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #99 on: January 30, 2014, 06:13:34 PM »
The EO church knows a) akrivia (acting according to canons) and b) ikonomia (acting according to practical and pastoral necessities).
If there are no canons on who may use the ambo, then, by definition, every decision on that is ikonomia.

As for the Moscow document, it is wrong and the reasons for that have been listed by Met. Elpidophoros. (Have you actually read that one?)

Btw, the Moscow document has an understanding of universal primacy I disagree with, but it does have a notion of universal primacy. Are you telling me the OO church has none at all?

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #100 on: January 30, 2014, 06:31:05 PM »
And the article makes no mention at all of what the service was.

Read the text again.
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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #101 on: January 30, 2014, 06:31:05 PM »
If members of a religion were doing things contrary to what they should be doing because the State provides for 48 priests, then maybe its better to not be involved.

If they aren't doing anything out of bounds, then it's a bonus to be recognized by the State.

And how did you come to that?


Which part?




That taking part in such events is related to legal situation?
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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #102 on: January 30, 2014, 06:31:05 PM »
Since this is all so very confusing, I suggest we hire a private investigator to determine exactly what took place on the day in question and when. 

I've already posted a report. It's rather selfexplanatory. Nothing to investigate here, really.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #103 on: January 30, 2014, 07:20:13 PM »
The EO church knows a) akrivia (acting according to canons) and b) ikonomia (acting according to practical and pastoral necessities).
If there are no canons on who may use the ambo, then, by definition, every decision on that is ikonomia.

If there are no canons on who may or may not use the ambo, it does not follow that every decision on the matter is economy.  The canons are not prescriptive: the Church doesn't think up random problems, determine a solution, and then compose a canon to cover those eventualities.  The canons are composed and ratified in response to concrete problems requiring correction.  If there's no canon about who can speak from the ambo, it doesn't mean "Do whatever you want as long as the bishop doesn't care".  For all we know, it means that the ambo was respected and the problem never arose to the point where a canon was necessary.  Seriously, before the modern ecumenical movement, how frequently did Orthodox bishops invite or allow non-Orthodox clergy to preach to their congregations from a position of authority? 

Quote
As for the Moscow document, it is wrong and the reasons for that have been listed by Met. Elpidophoros. (Have you actually read that one?)

Yes.  I don't find his position convincing.  You are welcome to point out the problems in the MP document and discuss this issue with me in that thread. 

Quote
Btw, the Moscow document has an understanding of universal primacy I disagree with, but it does have a notion of universal primacy. Are you telling me the OO church has none at all?

I've commented on OO views on primacy in the OO section and perhaps even in the thread above.  Our views are more aligned with those of the MP (at least as I understand the document) than they are with Met. Elpidophoros, but it's not an exact match.  If you want to pursue that question, feel free to post in either thread.   
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #104 on: January 30, 2014, 07:24:32 PM »
If there's no canon about who can speak from the ambo, it doesn't mean "Do whatever you want as long as the bishop doesn't care".  For all we know, it means that the ambo was respected and the problem never arose to the point where a canon was necessary. 

PS: In the entire corpus of canonical legislation, there are canons related to liturgical concerns, but all of them combined wouldn't cover the entire liturgical tradition.  Received tradition, rubrics, etc. should be sufficient to govern these matters until it becomes a serious dispute.  It's not the case that only a canon has binding authority. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

...if you feel Mor really is in spiritual danger, pray the Jesus prayer for him.   :police:

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #105 on: January 31, 2014, 12:13:45 AM »
If there's no canon about who can speak from the ambo, it doesn't mean "Do whatever you want as long as the bishop doesn't care".  For all we know, it means that the ambo was respected and the problem never arose to the point where a canon was necessary.
Do you realise that the Metropolitan (i.e. bishop) was not only present, but presiding the ceremony and it was him who invited the RC archbishop to speak?


PS: In the entire corpus of canonical legislation, there are canons related to liturgical concerns, but all of them combined wouldn't cover the entire liturgical tradition.  Received tradition, rubrics, etc. should be sufficient to govern these matters until it becomes a serious dispute.  It's not the case that only a canon has binding authority. 
Ok, and there is no serious dispute within the EO Church. You are OO and Maria And Jonathan are non-canonical. Strange thing, people who are not a member of our Church reproaching us being too permissive in dealing with people who are not members of our Church.

Btw, since the sermon of the RC archbishop did not take place within a liturgy, there is no liturgical concern. Even if you meant "liturgical" in the RC sense, there is no liturgical concern either, since the sermon did not take place within the vespers service, but afterwards. Now the only thing you could argue is that the ambo is that holy that it may not in any case be used by a heterodox person. And for this, I am waiting for a source.

Offline Nephi

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #106 on: January 31, 2014, 12:38:05 AM »
Ok, and there is no serious dispute within the EO Church. You are OO and Maria And Jonathan are non-canonical. Strange thing, people who are not a member of our Church reproaching us being too permissive in dealing with people who are not members of our Church.
Bordering on ad hominem? Their personal church affiliation is not relevant to the soundness of their claims.

Quote
Btw, since the sermon of the RC archbishop did not take place within a liturgy, there is no liturgical concern. Even if you meant "liturgical" in the RC sense, there is no liturgical concern either, since the sermon did not take place within the vespers service, but afterwards. Now the only thing you could argue is that the ambo is that holy that it may not in any case be used by a heterodox person. And for this, I am waiting for a source.
What does liturgical in the "RC sense" even mean?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 12:38:36 AM by Nephi »

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #107 on: January 31, 2014, 12:48:39 AM »
Bordering on ad hominem? Their personal church affiliation is not relevant to the soundness of their claims.
Yes, it is. We are not talking Protestant denominations here. This is an issue of the Church dealing with those who are not (or not fully) part of it. It is a thing for the Church to decide, under guidance from the Holy Spirit. And surely every anti-ecumenist should agree that those not in full communion with the Church are not in a position to tell the Church what to do.

The same goes for me when I comment on the OO or any other Christian structure, I am not their member so I am not in a position to tell them what to do. All I could do is to give an estimate in how far a certain decision in their own community would be beneficial or demtrimental for obtaining full unity with the canonical EO Church.


What does liturgical in the "RC sense" even mean?
Not just the eucharist service but also any kind of structured service with a defined text such as matins, vespers or baptismal, funeral etc. rites

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #108 on: January 31, 2014, 01:20:35 AM »
If members of a religion were doing things contrary to what they should be doing because the State provides for 48 priests, then maybe its better to not be involved.

If they aren't doing anything out of bounds, then it's a bonus to be recognized by the State.

And how did you come to that?


Which part?




That taking part in such events is related to legal situation?

First from the US State report, from another article (which I've since lost in cyberland) about the Orthodox Church in Belgium, and it vaguely mentioned some requirements of the State which may be of some concern if care is not taken.  Also by one of the lines in the link you posted regarding the event under discussion.  There is a 25 year history of this occurring, and it involves an agreement between local churches in Belgium, or so it appears.  Haven't been able to find much about it.

The overall point is that whatever occurred, it doesn't happen on a regular basis, like Lutheran and Roman Catholics holding services together every week.   It is, as mentioned above, an eikonomia.

Think I'm about done supporting the growth of this thread now, and I agree with you that there isn't much to look at here, but respectfully wanted to reply to your post.
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #109 on: January 31, 2014, 02:15:26 AM »
Again: any canons about ambo usage?

I'll see what I can find, though I'm not sure if a canon is necessary for such things.  When did universal and long-standing custom become worthless in the Orthodox Church?  There's no canon prohibiting a subdeacon from wearing an epigonation, but who cares?  It's just not done.    

Quote
PS: Mor Ephrem, if you want to accuse Eastern Orthodoxy of "immaturity", wouldn't "Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Private Discussions" be the right place for that?

No, because I didn't mean that as polemically as you seem to have taken it or want to take it: polemic had nothing to do with it, it's just an observation.  As a communion, there's enough division (political, not theological) within the EO ranks to guarantee that any "false union" with RC's or Protestants would fail even faster than Florence if it was attempted at all.  So I'm not really concerned that EO involvement in the ecumenical movement is as dangerous as others claim.  

But I don't like nonsense like letting non-Orthodox clerics preach from the ambon in the presence of Orthodox clerics, and I don't like the smoke and mirrors brought into this thread to hide it.  "How do we even know it was Vespers?"  "It was not during a service, but before or after."  "Presidents and Kings can stand there too, a priest told me so, but where are your canons to prove your point?"  Just be honest about it.  If it's not a restricted liturgical space, prove it to be so against universal and long-standing practice.  If you accept Roman Catholic orders but not Protestant orders, say so and own it.  If it's a good thing to participate in these functions and it involves zero watering down of the faith, very well.  I'm not necessarily against any of those, just make the case.  But it's not fair to paint anti-ecumenists, people "outside the canonical  Church", etc. as paranoid fanatics when people within the "canonical Church" resort to less than honest means to defend some things which go on at these events.        

So, you're saying it's okay to be a paranoid fanatic if some random layperson on a website isn't really sure what all is going on, or at least hesitates to make snap judgments against bishops in a church across the pond? 

It's less than honest to try to understand what was taking place and to analyze it with the information at hand?

Glad you brought this up, since AFAIK individual laypersons have no say as to what a Bishop does or doesn't do.   Surely you far more aware than I that church ecclesiology isn't a democracy.  Without a basic respect for a Bishop the Church would just be schismatics, Protestants, Catholics and Muslims (St. John of Damascus).  That's why we see priests being removed from the priesthood occasionally, sometimes for not following orders.  The laity has less say in it than the priest. 

Getting upset doesn't seem a wise course of action since:

1) I have no control over any of it

2) Do not have enough information to clearly understand to my satisfaction

3) Believe it was only posted as a political pot shot at canonical EO by an member of an old calendarist group

4) I never, ever see this stuff occur in my regular parish, where my real life is lived, though we have shared prayer at a funeral of a woman with the Ethiopian Orthodox community.  They came to pray for her.  Not sure what canon that falls under, but they are like family because of her.   I didn't realize until your comments that you felt something negative about "EO" people.  I'm very sorry to hear that. 

5)  In a way you are right with to be careful with the little things to be worthy of the larger things.  But then there are two kinds of zeal St. Isaac the Syrian talks about in Homily 51 & 55.  Also, striking a balance among various expressions of Orthodoxy seems normal to me, i.e., the monastics inspire us and teach us how to push on toward our goal, Christ Himself. 

6) There probably isn't any church that does everything perfectly every time.  Criticism of that can fall under the Homily 51 part and also a study of ecclesiastical history.  Some of those old village churches back in the day, maybe still today, were not much more than a stone hut. 

7) It will not further my salvation.  I just hope the hooks and jabs don't cause people younger in the Orthodox faith to fall away, which I've read as a stated goal by some. 

Quote

"... Sailing alongside the Ark of the Church are certain pirate ships. The largest one has the Pope as its captain, who has been trying to take over the Ark of Orthodoxy and become captain by expelling Christ. Next to it are other pirate ships and rafts. Among them there is a string of 5-10 small fishing boats (that is how many its larger groups are), then there is the rotten ship of Zealotism with its black flag that says "Orthodoxy or Death" on it. The Zealots' profession is fishing, which is why it has to take place in the dark and is therefore always nocturnal. The fish that they catch are those who slip out of the Ark of the canonical Church. They become dizzy from the tempests caused by the scandals of the Church; they lose their balance and fall into the water. Then the trawler that is tailing them fishes them out. It promises them that it will take them directly to Paradise and that it was a stroke of good fortune that they had fallen out of the Ark of the Church."

Excerpt from the book "The Crisis of the Church in Greece: The Trap of Zealotism", by Monk Michael.

A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #110 on: January 31, 2014, 02:37:58 AM »
If there's no canon about who can speak from the ambo, it doesn't mean "Do whatever you want as long as the bishop doesn't care".  For all we know, it means that the ambo was respected and the problem never arose to the point where a canon was necessary.
Do you realise that the Metropolitan (i.e. bishop) was not only present, but presiding the ceremony and it was him who invited the RC archbishop to speak?

Please stick with one thing at a time.  My comment, to which you responded, was a general comment about how canons arise within ecclesiastical tradition.  Your response has to do with the particular circumstances of this particular Vespers. 

I'm aware of what a Metropolitan is, so I don't need to be reminded that he is a bishop.  Nor do I need to be informed that he presided over the service, I've been to (EO) church enough to figure that out.  If he in fact invited the RC archbishop to speak, then he invited him to speak.  So? 

Quote
PS: In the entire corpus of canonical legislation, there are canons related to liturgical concerns, but all of them combined wouldn't cover the entire liturgical tradition.  Received tradition, rubrics, etc. should be sufficient to govern these matters until it becomes a serious dispute.  It's not the case that only a canon has binding authority. 
Ok, and there is no serious dispute within the EO Church.

Which is why you shouldn't need a canon from The Rudder to define who can and cannot occupy the ambo for a particular purpose: such things are already clear in the liturgical tradition.  Those who deviate from the traditional practice need to justify themselves, not those who maintain it.   

Quote
You are OO and Maria And Jonathan are non-canonical. Strange thing, people who are not a member of our Church reproaching us being too permissive in dealing with people who are not members of our Church.

I think you misunderstand my intent.  I'm not "reproaching you" for being "too permissive in dealing with people who are not members" of your Church.  I respect the right of your bishops to make exceptions to norms where exceptions can legitimately be made.  I didn't comment in this thread in order to criticise your bishops: indeed, I've made it clear elsewhere that I don't like commenting seriously on "external" matters (unless they involve matters of faith).  I did not comment in order to express my support for Maria and Jonathan's views on ecumenism, "the canonical EO", or any such thing (their jurisdiction is even less kindly disposed to mine than yours).  I entered this discussion at reply #8, and I did so with a liturgical interest in a matter which, in my experience, was common both to EO and OO--that much is clear if you want to go and read it.  Subsequent comments of mine have to do with this interest or with associated theological matters as the thread has evolved. 

If I expressed support for Maria and Jonathan at all, it is because I felt their concerns were being dismissed only because of their ecclesiastical status (as you seem to be doing here) or were being dodged through recourse to distractions.  I stand by that.  If they are wrong, such tactics are the absolute wrong way to prove it.       

Quote
Btw, since the sermon of the RC archbishop did not take place within a liturgy, there is no liturgical concern. Even if you meant "liturgical" in the RC sense, there is no liturgical concern either, since the sermon did not take place within the vespers service, but afterwards.

It's funny that you resort to such a legalistic argument.  People assemble for a liturgical service (Vespers) in an Orthodox church presided over by an Orthodox metropolitan and stay in the church after its conclusion (rather than, say, retiring to the parish hall or an auditorium or something) in order to hear a sermon from a non-Orthodox clergyman wearing his own liturgical vestments and standing in the place from which the Gospel is read/preached and the Holy Mysteries are administered, while other non-Orthodox clergymen speak/pray from a more "traditional" place for such activities, and you think it is silly for people to question the propriety of such things because it happened after the last "Δι' εὐχῶν τῶν ἁγίων Πατέρων ἡμῶν..."

Quote
Now the only thing you could argue is that the ambo is that holy that it may not in any case be used by a heterodox person. And for this, I am waiting for a source.

Um, that's basically what I've been arguing since reply #8. 

I said earlier that I was looking for a source you might accept (there are at least two Wiki pages which confirm my position, but I hesitate to cite Wiki as an authority).  But I also said that the canons are not prescriptive, that long-standing liturgical tradition observed universally has its own authority which is sufficient, etc., and yet you've summarily dismissed all such arguments based on the authority of

1.  the Bulgarian President,
2.  one EO Metropolitan in Belgium,
3.  some seminarian's ungraded canon law homework (which, as I said, makes at least one serious error in its total three pages), and
4.  some "I think..." statements of your own. 

If that's your standard, I doubt I could convince you of anything serious even if I managed to resurrect the Three Hierarchs.   
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

...if you feel Mor really is in spiritual danger, pray the Jesus prayer for him.   :police:

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #111 on: January 31, 2014, 02:39:44 AM »
The same goes for me when I comment on the OO or any other Christian structure, I am not their member so I am not in a position to tell them what to do. All I could do is to give an estimate in how far a certain decision in their own community would be beneficial or demtrimental for obtaining full unity with the canonical EO Church.

Very good: that's all I was doing from where I stand.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

...if you feel Mor really is in spiritual danger, pray the Jesus prayer for him.   :police:

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #112 on: January 31, 2014, 02:40:12 AM »
If members of a religion were doing things contrary to what they should be doing because the State provides for 48 priests, then maybe its better to not be involved.

If they aren't doing anything out of bounds, then it's a bonus to be recognized by the State.

And how did you come to that?

Which part?

You don't have to be recognised by the government to build churches or to worship. There were several Orthodox parishes before the Orthodox asked for recognition. But you'll only get money from the government when you're recognised by the government.

You also have to name someone as the spokesman for your religion, and now, per royal decree, Belgium recognises the metropolitan of the Ecumenical Patriarch or his representative as the spokesman for the entire Orthodox Church. That royal decree is all over the website of the Greek jurisdiction in Belgium. Of course, the Greek metropolitan uses this as another justification for his primacy in the Low Countries.



Thanks for that Cyrillic.  The article mentioned that the Russians were signing papers in the next room where they also had refreshments.  There is a specific term for the ceremony, and they have had it for 25 years.  

Yes, seems everyone is struggling for territory, or at least it sounds that way.
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Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #113 on: January 31, 2014, 03:00:04 AM »
So, you're saying it's okay to be a paranoid fanatic if some random layperson on a website isn't really sure what all is going on, or at least hesitates to make snap judgments against bishops in a church across the pond? 

It's less than honest to try to understand what was taking place and to analyze it with the information at hand?

I don't think it's OK to be a paranoid fanatic at all.  But if my response to someone who disagrees with me is to dismiss them as a nut when they are not nutty at all, nothing good comes from that. 

By all means, try to get all the facts and understand what happened, but why should one or the other person be allowed to ignore facts they don't like?  Nothing good comes from that either. 

Quote
Glad you brought this up, since AFAIK individual laypersons have no say as to what a Bishop does or doesn't do.   Surely you far more aware than I that church ecclesiology isn't a democracy.  Without a basic respect for a Bishop the Church would just be schismatics, Protestants, Catholics and Muslims (St. John of Damascus).  That's why we see priests being removed from the priesthood occasionally, sometimes for not following orders.  The laity has less say in it than the priest. 
 

It's more nuanced than that, but OK. 

Quote
Getting upset doesn't seem a wise course of action since:

1) I have no control over any of it

Sure, but you could extend that to a lot of things about which we get upset even though we have no control over them.  And I'm not even sure what "upset" means here.  I'm not sitting in my home weeping about a Vespers in Belgium, that would be stupid.  But it's not stupid to have questions.

Quote
2) Do not have enough information to clearly understand to my satisfaction

That's why people ask questions...?

Quote
3) Believe it was only posted as a political pot shot at canonical EO by an member of an old calendarist group

Nothing in the OP suggests anything other than that the person posted a news story about an ecumenical service accompanied by some pictures captioned with a brief explanation of what is depicted.  You are reading all of the above into it when it is not necessarily so. 

Quote
4) I never, ever see this stuff occur in my regular parish, where my real life is lived, though we have shared prayer at a funeral of a woman with the Ethiopian Orthodox community.  They came to pray for her.  Not sure what canon that falls under, but they are like family because of her.   I didn't realize until your comments that you felt something negative about "EO" people.  I'm very sorry to hear that. 

Wait...what are you talking about?

Quote
5)  In a way you are right with to be careful with the little things to be worthy of the larger things.  But then there are two kinds of zeal St. Isaac the Syrian talks about in Homily 51 & 55.  Also, striking a balance among various expressions of Orthodoxy seems normal to me, i.e., the monastics inspire us and teach us how to push on toward our goal, Christ Himself. 

6) There probably isn't any church that does everything perfectly every time.  Criticism of that can fall under the Homily 51 part and also a study of ecclesiastical history.  Some of those old village churches back in the day, maybe still today, were not much more than a stone hut. 

I'm not sure what you're talking about or its relevance...sorry. 

Quote
7) It will not further my salvation.  I just hope the hooks and jabs don't cause people younger in the Orthodox faith to fall away, which I've read as a stated goal by some

Again, to what are you referring?

Quote

"... Sailing alongside the Ark of the Church are certain pirate ships. The largest one has the Pope as its captain, who has been trying to take over the Ark of Orthodoxy and become captain by expelling Christ. Next to it are other pirate ships and rafts. Among them there is a string of 5-10 small fishing boats (that is how many its larger groups are), then there is the rotten ship of Zealotism with its black flag that says "Orthodoxy or Death" on it. The Zealots' profession is fishing, which is why it has to take place in the dark and is therefore always nocturnal. The fish that they catch are those who slip out of the Ark of the canonical Church. They become dizzy from the tempests caused by the scandals of the Church; they lose their balance and fall into the water. Then the trawler that is tailing them fishes them out. It promises them that it will take them directly to Paradise and that it was a stroke of good fortune that they had fallen out of the Ark of the Church."

Excerpt from the book "The Crisis of the Church in Greece: The Trap of Zealotism", by Monk Michael.


I'm not sure why everyone thinks I'm an Old Calendarist Zealot, it's really odd...
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

...if you feel Mor really is in spiritual danger, pray the Jesus prayer for him.   :police:

Offline Severian

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #114 on: January 31, 2014, 04:02:14 AM »
Quite disturbing, IMHO...
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 04:04:31 AM by Severian »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #115 on: January 31, 2014, 07:08:22 AM »
Mor Ephrem,

In fact I am not trying to prove that the speech of the RC archbishop was ok. No, the EO metropolitan invited him to do it, so I consider it to be ok until proven otherwise. If everything a bishop, who also is a trained theologian, does, is under suspicion under proven right, where do we get? No, the burden of proof is on those who claim he is wrong.

And I still haven't seen any kind of proof that they ambo were reserved to clergy, to be treated similarly as the space behind the iconostasis etc. That's just an unsourced claim and that's it. Even if there was going to be a "proof from rubrics", I would like to see that one argued exactly.

To say "It was never done so it's forbidden" is just not enough of an argument. Btw, not everything that was always or usually done is Tradition. By the same logic, the EO church could ban services in English and prescribe Ancient Greek or Church Slavonic to be used exclusively. In fact, the very example of the emperor shows that there is more flexibility in the EO church than some people would want to.

And yes, I do feel free to dismiss objections of members of non-canonical Old Calndarist groups. Either someone cares about events in the EO church, because he or she believes "World Orthodoxy", as they call it, is the Body of Christ, the Arc of Salvation, then it would be necessary and logical to be part of it. Or that person belives the EO church is a fallen, heretical community anyway, then it would not matter how "World Orthodox" heretics and Roman Catholic heretics refer to each other.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #116 on: January 31, 2014, 09:21:48 AM »
Mor Ephrem,

In fact I am not trying to prove that the speech of the RC archbishop was ok. No, the EO metropolitan invited him to do it, so I consider it to be ok until proven otherwise. If everything a bishop, who also is a trained theologian, does, is under suspicion under proven right, where do we get? No, the burden of proof is on those who claim he is wrong.

And I still haven't seen any kind of proof that they ambo were reserved to clergy, to be treated similarly as the space behind the iconostasis etc. That's just an unsourced claim and that's it. Even if there was going to be a "proof from rubrics", I would like to see that one argued exactly.

To say "It was never done so it's forbidden" is just not enough of an argument. Btw, not everything that was always or usually done is Tradition. By the same logic, the EO church could ban services in English and prescribe Ancient Greek or Church Slavonic to be used exclusively. In fact, the very example of the emperor shows that there is more flexibility in the EO church than some people would want to.

And yes, I do feel free to dismiss objections of members of non-canonical Old Calndarist groups. Either someone cares about events in the EO church, because he or she believes "World Orthodoxy", as they call it, is the Body of Christ, the Arc of Salvation, then it would be necessary and logical to be part of it. Or that person belives the EO church is a fallen, heretical community anyway, then it would not matter how "World Orthodox" heretics and Roman Catholic heretics refer to each other.

The reason "zealots" like myself and Maria care about this is that we're trying to convince members of your church, and other churches in "World Orthodoxy", that ecumenism is a real phenomenon and that your bishops actively participate in and promote it. This is in response to the attitude we so often hear that ecumenism is not of any concern and that the bishops of WO do not participate in it. When we bring up actual examples of such participation in ecumenism, it is noteworthy that people like you or LBK or PtA resort to what Mor calls "smoke and mirrors": rather than own the ecumenism and try to justify it from within Orthodox tradition, you resort to highly legalistic arguments about what the exact liturgical situation was in order to excuse it. The fact that you have to grasp at straws and make excuses for the event shows that you are aware that it is going in some sense against Church order and is a violation of Church tradition: your concern then becomes finding a reason to make it an excusable violation of order.

In one sense it's good that you are trying to make excuses, since it shows that you are still aware at some level that ecumenism is against Orthodoxy, whereas if you were completely welcoming of the event and what it represents it would show that you were no longer even Orthodox in mindset. But the making excuses is not going to save you in the end, since it also shows that at some level you understand your bishops are false bishops and are leading their flocks astray, but you are trying to deny this reality to yourself and convince others to deny it.
 
On this forum community that allows for dialogue between Old Calendarists and mainstream "World" Orthodox, you are permitted to question those "World" Orthodox practices with which you disagree and even judge the practices as ecumenist or heretical. What you are not permitted to do is show such gross disrespect for "World" Orthodox clergy as to call them heretics or "false bishops". Such is a violation of our rules that you keep your discourse civil and speak respectfully of the clergy, even those outside your communion.

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Offline LBK

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #117 on: January 31, 2014, 09:36:19 AM »
Unless, and until, someone provides film footage with sound of what actually happened at this church, all allegations are just that - allegations and speculation. We do not know what was read out by the non-Orthodox clergy present, we do not know what was sung by them, whether their contributions were part of an Orthodox vespers, or before/after it, etc etc.

Many ifs, few confirmed facts.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 09:38:26 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #118 on: January 31, 2014, 09:42:10 AM »
Unless, and until, someone provides film footage with sound of what actually happened at this church, all allegations are just that - allegations and speculation. We do not know what was read out by the non-Orthodox clergy present, we do not know what was sung by them, whether their contributions were part of an Orthodox vespers, or before/after it, etc etc.

Many ifs, few confirmed facts.

Smoke and mirrors. I see a vested RC bishop speaking from the ambo while the bishop is throned. And the event is billed as "ecumenical vespers". That's enough for me.

Offline LBK

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #119 on: January 31, 2014, 09:46:54 AM »
Unless, and until, someone provides film footage with sound of what actually happened at this church, all allegations are just that - allegations and speculation. We do not know what was read out by the non-Orthodox clergy present, we do not know what was sung by them, whether their contributions were part of an Orthodox vespers, or before/after it, etc etc.

Many ifs, few confirmed facts.

Smoke and mirrors. I see a vested RC bishop speaking from the ambo while the bishop is throned. And the event is billed as "ecumenical vespers". That's enough for me.

Your standard of proof is very poor, then. It is not I, PtA and others you have egregiously named who are clutching at straws.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #120 on: January 31, 2014, 09:48:33 AM »
Unless, and until, someone provides film footage with sound of what actually happened at this church, all allegations are just that - allegations and speculation. We do not know what was read out by the non-Orthodox clergy present, we do not know what was sung by them, whether their contributions were part of an Orthodox vespers, or before/after it, etc etc.

Many ifs, few confirmed facts.

Smoke and mirrors. I see a vested RC bishop speaking from the ambo while the bishop is throned. And the event is billed as "ecumenical vespers". That's enough for me.

Your standard of proof is very poor, then. It is not I, PtA and others you have egregiously named who are clutching at straws.

As I said earlier, the canons forbid ANY prayer with heretics. It doesn't matter whether the mutual prayer occurs inside or outside a particular service, or even where it occurs. What you are seeking is proof that the event is NOT what it plainly appears to be; YOU are the one grasping at straws.

Good luck with that.

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #121 on: January 31, 2014, 09:48:57 AM »
The RC archbishop should not have been allowed to do what he was doing, whatever it was. Yes, this is ecumenism gone wrong. No, I do not believe it represents a general cancer of heresy infecting the Church. Knowing the history of the Church, and how complicated and ambiguous the lines of communion have sometimes been over the centuries between us and the RC's, it is difficult for such a little thing to make me panic. Canonical breaches were routinely made and ignored well before the term "ecumenism" came into existence. But I would agree that splitting hairs as to whether he was really standing at the altar or not is not particularly meaningful.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 09:49:47 AM by Iconodule »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #122 on: January 31, 2014, 09:51:10 AM »
The RC archbishop should not have been allowed to do what he was doing, whatever it was. Yes, this is ecumenism gone wrong. No, I do not believe it represents a general cancer of heresy infecting the Church. Knowing the history of the Church, and how complicated and ambiguous the lines of communion have sometimes been over the centuries between us and the RC's, it is difficult for such a little thing to make me panic. Canonical breaches were routinely made and ignored well before the term "ecumenism" came into existence. But I would agree that splitting hairs as to whether he was really standing at the altar or not is not particularly meaningful.

Yeah, if this were the only event of its kind, never to have occurred before or subsequently, I might be able to write it off as a freak accident. But as we all know, this is not the case.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #123 on: January 31, 2014, 10:02:40 AM »
The RC archbishop should not have been allowed to do what he was doing, whatever it was. Yes, this is ecumenism gone wrong. No, I do not believe it represents a general cancer of heresy infecting the Church. Knowing the history of the Church, and how complicated and ambiguous the lines of communion have sometimes been over the centuries between us and the RC's, it is difficult for such a little thing to make me panic. Canonical breaches were routinely made and ignored well before the term "ecumenism" came into existence. But I would agree that splitting hairs as to whether he was really standing at the altar or not is not particularly meaningful.

Yeah, if this were the only event of its kind, never to have occurred before or subsequently, I might be able to write it off as a freak accident. But as we all know, this is not the case.

And my point was not that it is an isolated incident, but that it does not represent some grave doctrinal shift in the Church. Again, we have centuries of precedents without anyone breaking away to form Old Calendarist groups. This schism-at-the-drop-of-a-hat attitude is modern.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 10:02:57 AM by Iconodule »
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Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn— whatever they had been, they were men!
- Lovecraft, At the Mountains of Madness

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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #124 on: January 31, 2014, 10:12:43 AM »
The RC archbishop should not have been allowed to do what he was doing, whatever it was. Yes, this is ecumenism gone wrong. No, I do not believe it represents a general cancer of heresy infecting the Church. Knowing the history of the Church, and how complicated and ambiguous the lines of communion have sometimes been over the centuries between us and the RC's, it is difficult for such a little thing to make me panic. Canonical breaches were routinely made and ignored well before the term "ecumenism" came into existence. But I would agree that splitting hairs as to whether he was really standing at the altar or not is not particularly meaningful.

Yeah, if this were the only event of its kind, never to have occurred before or subsequently, I might be able to write it off as a freak accident. But as we all know, this is not the case.

And my point was not that it is an isolated incident, but that it does not represent some grave doctrinal shift in the Church. Again, we have centuries of precedents without anyone breaking away to form Old Calendarist groups. This schism-at-the-drop-of-a-hat attitude is modern.

Sure it represents a grave doctrinal shift. The heterodox are outside the Church: to pray with them entails accepting that they are somehow in the Church. That's it.

Offline LBK

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #125 on: January 31, 2014, 10:18:15 AM »
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Sure it represents a grave doctrinal shift. The heterodox are outside the Church: to pray with them entails accepting that they are somehow in the Church. That's it.

Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #126 on: January 31, 2014, 10:23:54 AM »
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Sure it represents a grave doctrinal shift. The heterodox are outside the Church: to pray with them entails accepting that they are somehow in the Church. That's it.

Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?

Diocese of Metropolitan Pavlos of America

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #127 on: January 31, 2014, 10:32:35 AM »
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Sure it represents a grave doctrinal shift. The heterodox are outside the Church: to pray with them entails accepting that they are somehow in the Church. That's it.

Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?

Diocese of Metropolitan Pavlos of America

Your answer is not to the question I asked. I ask again: Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #128 on: January 31, 2014, 10:33:51 AM »
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Sure it represents a grave doctrinal shift. The heterodox are outside the Church: to pray with them entails accepting that they are somehow in the Church. That's it.

Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?

Diocese of Metropolitan Pavlos of America

Your answer is not to the question I asked. I ask again: Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?

I am not a bishop. What is the relevance of this?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 10:34:12 AM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline LBK

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #129 on: January 31, 2014, 10:35:35 AM »
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Sure it represents a grave doctrinal shift. The heterodox are outside the Church: to pray with them entails accepting that they are somehow in the Church. That's it.

Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?

Diocese of Metropolitan Pavlos of America

Your answer is not to the question I asked. I ask again: Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?

I am not a bishop. What is the relevance of this?


The way you boldly and baldly interpret church canons, you must be a bishop.  :P
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #130 on: January 31, 2014, 10:37:06 AM »
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Sure it represents a grave doctrinal shift. The heterodox are outside the Church: to pray with them entails accepting that they are somehow in the Church. That's it.

Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?

Diocese of Metropolitan Pavlos of America

Your answer is not to the question I asked. I ask again: Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?

I am not a bishop. What is the relevance of this?


The way you boldly and baldly interpret church canons, you must be a bishop.  :P

It's how my bishop interprets them. Sorry if it bothers you.

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #131 on: January 31, 2014, 10:41:28 AM »
Quote
Sure it represents a grave doctrinal shift. The heterodox are outside the Church: to pray with them entails accepting that they are somehow in the Church. That's it.

Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?

Diocese of Metropolitan Pavlos of America

Your answer is not to the question I asked. I ask again: Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?

I am not a bishop. What is the relevance of this?


The way you boldly and baldly interpret church canons, you must be a bishop.  :P

It's how my bishop interprets them. Sorry if it bothers you.

An interpretation which is not necessarily shared by other Orthodox bishops who are all in canonical communion with one another the world over.

BTW, any footage with sound forthcoming?
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #132 on: January 31, 2014, 10:44:17 AM »
Quote
Sure it represents a grave doctrinal shift. The heterodox are outside the Church: to pray with them entails accepting that they are somehow in the Church. That's it.

Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?

Diocese of Metropolitan Pavlos of America

Your answer is not to the question I asked. I ask again: Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?

I am not a bishop. What is the relevance of this?


The way you boldly and baldly interpret church canons, you must be a bishop.  :P

It's how my bishop interprets them. Sorry if it bothers you.

An interpretation which is not necessarily shared by other Orthodox bishops who are all in canonical communion with one another the world over.

BTW, any footage with sound forthcoming?

That's because those other bishops are ecumenist heretics. QED

You wait for the sound which I'm sure will prove there was nothing ecumenist about that event despite all appearances to the contrary.

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #133 on: January 31, 2014, 10:48:17 AM »
Quote
Sure it represents a grave doctrinal shift. The heterodox are outside the Church: to pray with them entails accepting that they are somehow in the Church. That's it.

Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?

Diocese of Metropolitan Pavlos of America

Your answer is not to the question I asked. I ask again: Jonathan, of which diocese are you a bishop?

I am not a bishop. What is the relevance of this?


The way you boldly and baldly interpret church canons, you must be a bishop.  :P

It's how my bishop interprets them. Sorry if it bothers you.

An interpretation which is not necessarily shared by other Orthodox bishops who are all in canonical communion with one another the world over.

BTW, any footage with sound forthcoming?

That's because those other bishops are ecumenist heretics. QED

You wait for the sound which I'm sure will prove there was nothing ecumenist about that event despite all appearances to the contrary.


Not at all. I wait for the sound and footage to form a properly-informed view of the situation based on corroboration and fact, not on speculation drawn from a handful of photographs. This has been my position all along.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 10:48:48 AM by LBK »
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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #134 on: January 31, 2014, 11:14:15 AM »
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Two photos of a Cardinal standing at the Holy Altar and giving a homily at this service:

Anyone can see he is standing on the solea, which is in the nave. He's clearly NOT in the altar, or at the Holy Table.

Maria, there is no need to add your own distortions to what happened there.  >:(

Well, excuse me, but the Greek Orthodox Priest said that the top of the stairs was considered part of the Holy Altar, and that neither laity nor heterodox were supposed to ascend that part. Have you ever seen Altar Boys go up those steps? No.

Are you talking about the solea?  The "top" of the stairs in general?  Or the ambo - the middle portion?

The solea is often trod upon by laity.  In many churches, people actually come up and venerate the icons on the iconostasis.  This will require them to step up on the solea.  Some actually have candle holders up on the solea, inviting people to come up.

The ambo, I would agree, is reserved for bishop/clergy.  I believe in the olden days, the ambo actually jotted out in to the nave, so that the bishop/priest was in the middle of the crowd, and they could clearly hear him speak.

However, very often people do find themselves on the ambo.  During marriage ceremonies, couples are often led up onto the ambo, during baptisms the child is brought up (boy goes inside altar, but, girl at least is brought before the Royal Gates), etc.  Often photos are taken on the ambo of married couples, school photos, church group photos, etc.  Not to mention the person who actually cleans and vacuums the area.

Therefore, to say that nobody should ever step foot on the ambo, other than bishops/clergy might be stretching it.

However, I do wholeheartedly agree that this area is to be treated with the utmost respect.  The Holy Gifts preside just inside.  It is from the Ambo that Christ, in the form of the Eucharist, meets His creation.  It is here that we come to venerate the Cross after services.  We are not to pass before the Ambo without first crossing ourselves, etc.

So, yes, while many people find their way up onto the Ambo, it is still a place of respect and should not be trodden upon just for kicks.

However, I don't know about it being "wrong" for non-Orthodox to speak from it.  My gut tells me they shouldn't...if only for the fact that what would they, non-Orthodox, have to teach us?  Why aren't we preaching to them, but, the other way around?

Do we know what was said?  What was this occasion?  If it was some national commemoration, a rally for a common cause, etc...then it would be proper that everyone have a say, as it is their commemoration as well...and they are the guests and can speak.

However, if they were strictly preaching the Gospel or Church teachings, then I would have an issue with it.

Does anyone actually know what was said, and what was being celebrated?  Until we know this, then we are just spinning our wheels and getting each other upset for no good reason.

One must know all the facts before they can even deem to pass judgment.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria