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Author Topic: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014  (Read 5640 times) Average Rating: 0
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Maria
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« Reply #225 on: February 01, 2014, 07:18:46 PM »

This picture below was also taken by the same photographer. Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014



This photo shows the same Metropolitan praying with the heterodox. Look at the photo album for more shots. https://picasaweb.google.com/103992193156016737396/EcumenicalWorshipInTheAnglicanChurchInKnokkeJanuary242014

Quote
Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014 - with the participation of His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras of Belgium and Oikonomos Bernard Peckstadt
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« Reply #226 on: February 01, 2014, 07:21:30 PM »

This picture below was also taken by the same photographer. Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014



This photo shows the same Metropolitan praying with the heterodox. Look at the photo album for more shots. https://picasaweb.google.com/103992193156016737396/EcumenicalWorshipInTheAnglicanChurchInKnokkeJanuary242014

Quote
Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014 - with the participation of His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras of Belgium and Oikonomos Bernard Peckstadt
It looks as if there might have been some wrongdoing, but if you want us to join you in condemning what happened in these photos, you're going to have to present a much stronger case than you have so far. Looking only at the photos, I've seen nothing that cannot be explained as possibly something else. I've seen nothing, absolutely nothing, where your explanation alone is the only logical conclusion. There's still much reason to doubt the case you've presented thus far. You're going to need much more than just photos to prove your case.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:26:20 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #227 on: February 01, 2014, 07:22:45 PM »

Worst possible scenario?

What horrible descriptions did I make?

I studied verbal and non-verbal communications, communication disorders, sociolinguistics, psycholinguistics, body language, head movements, and hand gestures extensively while I was an undergraduate and graduate student as part of my M.A. degree in Linguistics.

Your authority can be wrong.  You draw conclusions that aren't supported by the facts in this thread.
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« Reply #228 on: February 01, 2014, 07:26:37 PM »

This picture below was also taken by the same photographer. Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014



This photo shows the same Metropolitan praying with the heterodox. Look at the photo album for more shots. https://picasaweb.google.com/103992193156016737396/EcumenicalWorshipInTheAnglicanChurchInKnokkeJanuary242014

Quote
Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014 - with the participation of His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras of Belgium and Oikonomos Bernard Peckstadt
It looks as if there might have been some wrongdoing, but if you want us to join you in condemning what happened in these photos, you're going to have to present a much stronger case than you have so far.

Apparently, clergy in "World" Orthodox can pray with heterodox in a "sacred" space without violating any Holy Canons?
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« Reply #229 on: February 01, 2014, 07:30:59 PM »

This picture below was also taken by the same photographer. Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014



This photo shows the same Metropolitan praying with the heterodox. Look at the photo album for more shots. https://picasaweb.google.com/103992193156016737396/EcumenicalWorshipInTheAnglicanChurchInKnokkeJanuary242014

Quote
Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014 - with the participation of His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras of Belgium and Oikonomos Bernard Peckstadt
It looks as if there might have been some wrongdoing, but if you want us to join you in condemning what happened in these photos, you're going to have to present a much stronger case than you have so far.

Apparently, clergy in "World" Orthodox can pray with heterodox in a "sacred" space without violating any Holy Canons?
That's a red herring, Maria. I've said nothing good or bad about what actually happened in Brussels, for I don't know what really happened there. They may have violated the Canons; they may not have. I simply do not know. All I'm saying here to you is that I find the case you have presented thus far very weak and unconvincing. To join you in judging this event as a violation of the Canons, I'm going to need much more evidence than you have provided.
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« Reply #230 on: February 01, 2014, 07:31:23 PM »

It is interesting how all these photos of the Ecumenical Vespers Service have been taken by a person who has been able to get excellent close up shots and who is obviously enamored with ecumenism. He obviously had permission to take all these photos. Note that his photo album does not have any anti-ecumenicist rhetoric, so for anyone to jump to conclusions that the photos have been photo-shopped is ludicrous and absolutely hysterical.

It is interesting how one can equate taking good photos of an event, the skill of photography itself, with being 'obviously enamored' with anything, be it ecumenism, republicanism, hippy-ism, or any other ism.  Capturing an event effectively does not automatically equate with 'agreement with the sentiment of the event'

The lack of anti ecumenist rhetoric, again, is indicative of nothing in particular, because guess what, there isn't -any- rhetoric at all in the album, seeing that NONE of the pictures have descriptions or comments at all. So there is neither anti, nor pro, nor apathetic rhetoric.
For all we know, this person, is tasked with taking pictures for various events and parishes and is not taking them to -personally- promote any agenda other than 'as our official photographer, please document all events'.

I am not arguing or getting into whether the event is right, wrong, or anything else.  There is just a logical fallacy in saying what the photographers pictures indicate in terms of motivation or personal support.
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« Reply #231 on: February 01, 2014, 07:33:36 PM »

It is interesting how all these photos of the Ecumenical Vespers Service have been taken by a person who has been able to get excellent close up shots and who is obviously enamored with ecumenism. He obviously had permission to take all these photos. Note that his photo album does not have any anti-ecumenicist rhetoric, so for anyone to jump to conclusions that the photos have been photo-shopped is ludicrous and absolutely hysterical.

It is interesting how one can equate taking good photos of an event, the skill of photography itself, with being 'obviously enamored' with anything, be it ecumenism, republicanism, hippy-ism, or any other ism.  Capturing an event effectively does not automatically equate with 'agreement with the sentiment of the event'

The lack of anti ecumenist rhetoric, again, is indicative of nothing in particular, because guess what, there isn't -any- rhetoric at all in the album, seeing that NONE of the pictures have descriptions or comments at all. So there is neither anti, nor pro, nor apathetic rhetoric.
For all we know, this person, is tasked with taking pictures for various events and parishes and is not taking them to -personally- promote any agenda other than 'as our official photographer, please document all events'.

I am not arguing or getting into whether the event is right, wrong, or anything else.  There is just a logical fallacy in saying what the photographers pictures indicate in terms of motivation or personal support.
In fact, Denise, a most logical explanation to me is that he was paid to take photos at this event and was just doing the job he was paid to do.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:33:58 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #232 on: February 01, 2014, 07:35:50 PM »

It is interesting how all these photos of the Ecumenical Vespers Service have been taken by a person who has been able to get excellent close up shots and who is obviously enamored with ecumenism. He obviously had permission to take all these photos. Note that his photo album does not have any anti-ecumenicist rhetoric, so for anyone to jump to conclusions that the photos have been photo-shopped is ludicrous and absolutely hysterical.

It is interesting how one can equate taking good photos of an event, the skill of photography itself, with being 'obviously enamored' with anything, be it ecumenism, republicanism, hippy-ism, or any other ism.  Capturing an event effectively does not automatically equate with 'agreement with the sentiment of the event'

The lack of anti ecumenist rhetoric, again, is indicative of nothing in particular, because guess what, there isn't -any- rhetoric at all in the album, seeing that NONE of the pictures have descriptions or comments at all. So there is neither anti, nor pro, nor apathetic rhetoric.
For all we know, this person, is tasked with taking pictures for various events and parishes and is not taking them to -personally- promote any agenda other than 'as our official photographer, please document all events'.

I am not arguing or getting into whether the event is right, wrong, or anything else.  There is just a logical fallacy in saying what the photographers pictures indicate in terms of motivation or personal support.
In fact, Denise, the most logical explanation to me is that he was paid to take photos at this event and was just doing the job he was paid to do.

Very possible.  His username OrthoBel, i assume for Orthodox Belgium, could indeed mean that, as opposed to it being a personal account.  But even if he is a volunteer, it still doesn't ascribe a personal motivation to the photographer from the pictures.
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« Reply #233 on: February 01, 2014, 07:40:36 PM »

Here is another photo taken by the same photographer:

Ecumenical Worship in the Luxemburg Orthodox Cathedral - January 19th, 2014



Here is a close up of the booklet from which they are praying. Notice that the Roman Catholic prelate holds the microphone while he is is praying.



A protestant minister reading from the Bible during this Ecumenical "Worship."



Here is a close up from the booklet in English, French, and another language not very visible, so you can see what they are reading.



Notice: Roman Catholic and Orthodox hierarchs give blessings simultaneously. Was this planned or was it a spontaneous event?

« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:42:27 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #234 on: February 01, 2014, 07:44:19 PM »

Maria, you're going to have stop posting photos and start exploring other ways to present your case. Your photo evidence by itself is totally unconvincing, and your attempts to read your own explanations into the photos when you were obviously not there at the event only works against you.
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« Reply #235 on: February 01, 2014, 07:44:29 PM »

It is interesting how all these photos of the Ecumenical Vespers Service have been taken by a person who has been able to get excellent close up shots and who is obviously enamored with ecumenism. He obviously had permission to take all these photos. Note that his photo album does not have any anti-ecumenicist rhetoric, so for anyone to jump to conclusions that the photos have been photo-shopped is ludicrous and absolutely hysterical.

It is interesting how one can equate taking good photos of an event, the skill of photography itself, with being 'obviously enamored' with anything, be it ecumenism, republicanism, hippy-ism, or any other ism.  Capturing an event effectively does not automatically equate with 'agreement with the sentiment of the event'

The lack of anti ecumenist rhetoric, again, is indicative of nothing in particular, because guess what, there isn't -any- rhetoric at all in the album, seeing that NONE of the pictures have descriptions or comments at all. So there is neither anti, nor pro, nor apathetic rhetoric.
For all we know, this person, is tasked with taking pictures for various events and parishes and is not taking them to -personally- promote any agenda other than 'as our official photographer, please document all events'.

I am not arguing or getting into whether the event is right, wrong, or anything else.  There is just a logical fallacy in saying what the photographers pictures indicate in terms of motivation or personal support.
In fact, Denise, a most logical explanation to me is that he was paid to take photos at this event and was just doing the job he was paid to do.

Possibly, so there is no indication that he would photoshop any of his official photos.
Again, there is no anti-ecumenist rhetoric, so it is straight from the horse's mouth.
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« Reply #236 on: February 01, 2014, 07:44:47 PM »

This picture below was also taken by the same photographer. Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014



This photo shows the same Metropolitan praying with the heterodox. Look at the photo album for more shots. https://picasaweb.google.com/103992193156016737396/EcumenicalWorshipInTheAnglicanChurchInKnokkeJanuary242014

Quote
Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014 - with the participation of His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras of Belgium and Oikonomos Bernard Peckstadt
It looks as if there might have been some wrongdoing, but if you want us to join you in condemning what happened in these photos, you're going to have to present a much stronger case than you have so far.

Apparently, clergy in "World" Orthodox can pray with heterodox in a "sacred" space without violating any Holy Canons?

I am going to have to point out there is no such thing as "World" Orthodoxy (see my comments to Arachne about the use of scare quotes). There is Orthodoxy and there is heterodoxy, heretical bodies, schismatic bodies, and I guess those completely outside anything attempting to claim to be Christian.

Either you are Orthodox and in communion with the Orthodox Church or you are in a body described as above. Using terms like "World" Orthodoxy might sound good in niche corners of the internet where people discuss how to mock up an iconostasis in a two car garage, but elsewhere the term carries no meaning other than here where it is simply a way for those outside Orthodoxy to call those inside Orthodoxy schismatics.
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« Reply #237 on: February 01, 2014, 07:47:56 PM »

Maria, you're going to have stop posting photos and start exploring other ways to present your case. Your photo evidence by itself is totally unconvincing.

Says who?

And I am documenting that these ecumenical events are taking place in flagrant violation of the Holy Canons saying that we should not be praying with the heterodox. There have been FOUR events in January 2014 so far involving this one Metropolitan.

Would you like to see a video of another ecumenical event that just took place this month in Russia?
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« Reply #238 on: February 01, 2014, 07:56:56 PM »

Maria, you're going to have stop posting photos and start exploring other ways to present your case. Your photo evidence by itself is totally unconvincing.

Says who?
Says the people you're trying to convince.

And I am documenting that these ecumenical events are taking place in flagrant violation of the Holy Canons saying that we should not be praying with the heterodox.
Thank you for explaining so clearly your agenda in starting this thread. If these events really are happening as you say they are, then I might join you in condemning them as violations of the Canons. However, the case you have presented so far that these alleged prayer gatherings are actually happening has been extremely weak.

There have been FOUR events in January 2014 so far involving this one Metropolitan.

Would you like to see a video of another ecumenical event that just took place this month in Russia?
Not from you, I wouldn't. I really don't care to join you in this crusade against these alleged violations of the Canons in a far off land. I have much better things to do with my time than serve as prosecutor, judge, and jury in a kangaroo court.
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« Reply #239 on: February 01, 2014, 07:58:40 PM »

Maria, you're going to have stop posting photos and start exploring other ways to present your case. Your photo evidence by itself is totally unconvincing.

Says who?

And I am documenting that these ecumenical events are taking place in flagrant violation of the Holy Canons saying that we should not be praying with the heterodox. There have been FOUR events in January 2014 so far involving this one Metropolitan.

Would you like to see a video of another ecumenical event that just took place this month in Russia?

You use we while separating yourself from those in the photos. You can't have it both ways.

And just a peek at the canons would show that more than a few people praying together is not done according to letter and often spirit in them.
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« Reply #240 on: February 01, 2014, 08:08:15 PM »

Here's a description of the January 23 event from the Anglican church European website:

http://europe.anglican.org/news/news/post/618-ecumenical-signatures-in-belgium

Here's another description of the January 23 event, in French, from the regional ecumenical body for Belgium website:

https://comiteinterecclesialbruxelles.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/echos-de-la-veillee-oecumenique-de-priere-du-23012014/
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« Reply #241 on: February 01, 2014, 11:46:05 PM »

Here's a description of the January 23 event from the Anglican church European website:

http://europe.anglican.org/news/news/post/618-ecumenical-signatures-in-belgium

Here's another description of the January 23 event, in French, from the regional ecumenical body for Belgium website:

https://comiteinterecclesialbruxelles.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/echos-de-la-veillee-oecumenique-de-priere-du-23012014/

This is helpful.  If I'm reading these correctly, then the RC archbishop's homily, the other ministers' prayers, readings, speeches, etc., the signing of whatever that document was, all happened within the Vespers service, and not afterwards. 
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« Reply #242 on: February 02, 2014, 12:00:58 AM »

Here's a description of the January 23 event from the Anglican church European website:

http://europe.anglican.org/news/news/post/618-ecumenical-signatures-in-belgium

Here's another description of the January 23 event, in French, from the regional ecumenical body for Belgium website:

https://comiteinterecclesialbruxelles.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/echos-de-la-veillee-oecumenique-de-priere-du-23012014/

This is helpful.  If I'm reading these correctly, then the RC archbishop's homily, the other ministers' prayers, readings, speeches, etc., the signing of whatever that document was, all happened within the Vespers service, and not afterwards. 

Neither link specifies when the RC archbishop's homily and the signing of the document occurred.
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« Reply #243 on: February 02, 2014, 12:12:44 AM »

This picture below was also taken by the same photographer. Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014



This photo shows the same Metropolitan praying with the heterodox. Look at the photo album for more shots. https://picasaweb.google.com/103992193156016737396/EcumenicalWorshipInTheAnglicanChurchInKnokkeJanuary242014

Quote
Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014 - with the participation of His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras of Belgium and Oikonomos Bernard Peckstadt
It looks as if there might have been some wrongdoing, but if you want us to join you in condemning what happened in these photos, you're going to have to present a much stronger case than you have so far.

Apparently, clergy in "World" Orthodox can pray with heterodox in a "sacred" space without violating any Holy Canons?

I am going to have to point out there is no such thing as "World" Orthodoxy (see my comments to Arachne about the use of scare quotes). There is Orthodoxy and there is heterodoxy, heretical bodies, schismatic bodies, and I guess those completely outside anything attempting to claim to be Christian.

Either you are Orthodox and in communion with the Orthodox Church or you are in a body described as above. Using terms like "World" Orthodoxy might sound good in niche corners of the internet where people discuss how to mock up an iconostasis in a two car garage, but elsewhere the term carries no meaning other than here where it is simply a way for those outside Orthodoxy to call those inside Orthodoxy schismatics.

Wow, clearly stated and we agree. Huh....
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« Reply #244 on: February 02, 2014, 12:38:25 AM »

This picture below was also taken by the same photographer. Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014



This photo shows the same Metropolitan praying with the heterodox. Look at the photo album for more shots. https://picasaweb.google.com/103992193156016737396/EcumenicalWorshipInTheAnglicanChurchInKnokkeJanuary242014

Quote
Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014 - with the participation of His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras of Belgium and Oikonomos Bernard Peckstadt
It looks as if there might have been some wrongdoing, but if you want us to join you in condemning what happened in these photos, you're going to have to present a much stronger case than you have so far.

Apparently, clergy in "World" Orthodox can pray with heterodox in a "sacred" space without violating any Holy Canons?

I am going to have to point out there is no such thing as "World" Orthodoxy (see my comments to Arachne about the use of scare quotes). There is Orthodoxy and there is heterodoxy, heretical bodies, schismatic bodies, and I guess those completely outside anything attempting to claim to be Christian.

Either you are Orthodox and in communion with the Orthodox Church or you are in a body described as above. Using terms like "World" Orthodoxy might sound good in niche corners of the internet where people discuss how to mock up an iconostasis in a two car garage, but elsewhere the term carries no meaning other than here where it is simply a way for those outside Orthodoxy to call those inside Orthodoxy schismatics.

Wow, clearly stated and we agree. Huh....
I don't agree. Orthonorm pulled his punch in the final italicized portion. Those who use the term "World" Orthodox clearly mean heretics, the schismatics are all those guys in the other groups they're not in communion with that broke off from each other after they all decided that "World" Orthodoxy had become infested with the "heresies" of "ecumenicism", "sergianism", and that most despicable of groups "Novo Calendariis". 
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« Reply #245 on: February 02, 2014, 12:39:10 AM »

This is helpful.  If I'm reading these correctly, then the RC archbishop's homily, the other ministers' prayers, readings, speeches, etc., the signing of whatever that document was, all happened within the Vespers service, and not afterwards. 

Neither link specifies when the RC archbishop's homily and the signing of the document occurred.

If I'm reading the French in the second link correctly, Vespers appears to have proceeded normally until the OT readings.  

After mentioning the readings, the article talks about the sermon of the RC archbishop, followed by the mention of an offering of some prayers ("intentions") entrusted to the Lord's benevolence.  

Then the article says the Greek Metropolitan blessed the bread, followed by the Song of Simeon and the troparion of the day.  

Only after this came the signing of the documents (I made a mistake in my last post by lumping it with the sermon).    

Based on this account, the only way the RC archbishop's sermon and the ecumenical prayer was not in the middle of Vespers is if the writer of the article intentionally misrepresented the order of the ecumenical events while making sure to get the order of Vespers correct.  
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« Reply #246 on: February 02, 2014, 12:42:55 AM »

Here's a description of the January 23 event from the Anglican church European website:

http://europe.anglican.org/news/news/post/618-ecumenical-signatures-in-belgium

Here's another description of the January 23 event, in French, from the regional ecumenical body for Belgium website:

https://comiteinterecclesialbruxelles.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/echos-de-la-veillee-oecumenique-de-priere-du-23012014/

This is helpful.  If I'm reading these correctly, then the RC archbishop's homily, the other ministers' prayers, readings, speeches, etc., the signing of whatever that document was, all happened within the Vespers service, and not afterwards.  

Neither link specifies when the RC archbishop's homily and the signing of the document occurred.

The second link (excuse the poor Google translate):

Quote
Celebrated in memory of Saint Gregory the Theologian, vigil has resonated Psalms and litanies of peace or Cantiles sung in Greek, before offering the faithful reading of the Word from the Book of Proverbs and the Book of Wisdom before to suggest verses 1-17 1 st chapter of the First Letter to the Corinthians: Christ been divided  ? In his homily, Archbishop Léonard has referred to the scenario imagined by Vladimir Soloviev: that of a reunited Church at the time of the Parousia. Will it take the eschatological purposes for the coming of the visible Unity Churches? Without being able to answer the question, Bishop Leonard wished to see Christianity respond today to a double temptation: that of a Christianity without Christ, made ​​"values" more or less evangelical, and the unique thought that evacuate any idea of Christianity culturally incorrect ...

After a series of goodwill assigned to the intentions of the Lord, celebrants and the choir have called for the peace of God can reach each of the faithful present. Archbishop Athenagoras then blessed the bread before closing celebration by the Song of Simeon and the Troparion of St. Gregory the Theologian.
Finally worship, Bishop Léonard, Archbishop Athenagoras, Pastor Steven Leak and Canon Robert Innes jointly signed renewal of association of the Consultation of Christian Churches in Belgium, the 25th anniversary of the organization. An act which coincides with the 50th anniversary of the historic meeting between Pope Paul VI and the Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras in Jerusalem.

That certainly sounds like it's attempting to describe the event chronologically to some degree, putting the homily during the service. Interestingly, it also earlier refers to the service as "based on the model of Vespers Orthodox vigil." So was it even a vespers or something else altogether?
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« Reply #247 on: February 02, 2014, 12:56:57 AM »

This is good news:

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In addition to several recent joint pronouncements on issues of Belgian public life (most notably the proposed law authorising the euthanasia of children, which all the Churches strenuously oppose), the Concertation and the Comité work closely together in the area of religious education in schools, which is supported by the State in Belgium.

http://europe.anglican.org/news/news/post/618-ecumenical-signatures-in-belgium

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« Reply #248 on: February 02, 2014, 12:59:38 AM »

This is helpful.  If I'm reading these correctly, then the RC archbishop's homily, the other ministers' prayers, readings, speeches, etc., the signing of whatever that document was, all happened within the Vespers service, and not afterwards.  

Neither link specifies when the RC archbishop's homily and the signing of the document occurred.

If I'm reading the French in the second link correctly, Vespers appears to have proceeded normally until the OT readings.  

After mentioning the readings, the article talks about the sermon of the RC archbishop, followed by the mention of an offering of some prayers ("intentions") entrusted to the Lord's benevolence.  

Then the article says the Greek Metropolitan blessed the bread, followed by the Song of Simeon and the troparion of the day.  

Only after this came the signing of the documents (I made a mistake in my last post by lumping it with the sermon).    

Based on this account, the only way the RC archbishop's sermon and the ecumenical prayer was not in the middle of Vespers is if the writer of the article intentionally misrepresented the order of the ecumenical events while making sure to get the order of Vespers correct.  

If the article were written by a non-Orthodox,  then of course, he would be confused and give a somewhat distorted account of the events as they unfolded.

Greeks tend to give sermons at the end of the Divine Liturgy (after the prayers at the Ambo), or after the concluding prayers of Vespers. However, the concluding prayers may have confused a non-Orthodox clergyman or lay man as there is the initial exclamation: Let us conclude our prayers to the Lord, yet after this exclamation, the service goes on for at least 15 more minutes.
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« Reply #249 on: February 02, 2014, 01:16:49 AM »

This is helpful.  If I'm reading these correctly, then the RC archbishop's homily, the other ministers' prayers, readings, speeches, etc., the signing of whatever that document was, all happened within the Vespers service, and not afterwards. 

Neither link specifies when the RC archbishop's homily and the signing of the document occurred.

If I'm reading the French in the second link correctly, Vespers appears to have proceeded normally until the OT readings.  

After mentioning the readings, the article talks about the sermon of the RC archbishop, followed by the mention of an offering of some prayers ("intentions") entrusted to the Lord's benevolence.  

Then the article says the Greek Metropolitan blessed the bread, followed by the Song of Simeon and the troparion of the day.  

Only after this came the signing of the documents (I made a mistake in my last post by lumping it with the sermon).    

Based on this account, the only way the RC archbishop's sermon and the ecumenical prayer was not in the middle of Vespers is if the writer of the article intentionally misrepresented the order of the ecumenical events while making sure to get the order of Vespers correct.  

I've never seen an Epistle reading and a sermon during Vespers.
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« Reply #250 on: February 02, 2014, 01:34:54 AM »

I've never seen an Epistle reading and a sermon during Vespers.

An epistle (or three) is called for on some occasions, but usually, if there are readings, they are from the OT.  I suppose they switched out one of the three OT readings and substituted an epistle in its place because the theme of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity was from that passage and the preacher was likely going to speak on that. 

And if you're going to preach on a passage of Scripture, why not after it's been read?  Even if it's not much done nowadays, or required by the rubrics, it's not as if there's no precedent for preaching at Vespers.  There's certainly no prohibition that I can think of. 
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« Reply #251 on: February 02, 2014, 01:37:35 AM »

I've never seen an Epistle reading and a sermon during Vespers.

An epistle (or three) is called for on some occasions, but usually, if there are readings, they are from the OT.  I suppose they switched out one of the three OT readings and substituted an epistle in its place because the theme of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity was from that passage and the preacher was likely going to speak on that. 

And if you're going to preach on a passage of Scripture, why not after it's been read?  Even if it's not much done nowadays, or required by the rubrics, it's not as if there's no precedent for preaching at Vespers.  There's certainly no prohibition that I can think of. 
I have seen an Epistle reading during Vespers. In fact, the Vespers for the feast of the Ss. Peter and Paul has three readings from the First Epistle of St. Peter.
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« Reply #252 on: February 02, 2014, 01:42:03 AM »

I have seen an Epistle reading during Vespers. In fact, the Vespers for the feast of the Ss. Peter and Paul has three readings from the First Epistle of St. Peter.

I think some of the other apostles' feasts have it, especially if they contributed to the NT.  Certainly it occurs during Holy Week.  NT readings are rarer for Vespers than readings from the OT, but it happens. 
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« Reply #253 on: February 02, 2014, 01:42:21 AM »

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I've never seen an Epistle reading and a sermon during Vespers.

The feast of Apostles Peter and Paul has three readings from I Peter, instead of OT readings at vespers. IIRC the feasts of other apostles also feature epistle readings instead of OT readings.
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« Reply #254 on: February 02, 2014, 01:46:31 AM »

I've never seen an Epistle reading and a sermon during Vespers.

An epistle (or three) is called for on some occasions, but usually, if there are readings, they are from the OT.  I suppose they switched out one of the three OT readings and substituted an epistle in its place because the theme of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity was from that passage and the preacher was likely going to speak on that. 

And if you're going to preach on a passage of Scripture, why not after it's been read?  Even if it's not much done nowadays, or required by the rubrics, it's not as if there's no precedent for preaching at Vespers.  There's certainly no prohibition that I can think of. 
I have seen an Epistle reading during Vespers. In fact, the Vespers for the feast of the Ss. Peter and Paul has three readings from the First Epistle of St. Peter.

I forgot although when you attend a Vespers for the feast day of Sts. Peter & Paul only once or twice, forgetfulness can easily set in.   Embarrassed
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« Reply #255 on: February 02, 2014, 01:47:56 AM »

I've never seen an Epistle reading and a sermon during Vespers.

An epistle (or three) is called for on some occasions, but usually, if there are readings, they are from the OT.  I suppose they switched out one of the three OT readings and substituted an epistle in its place because the theme of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity was from that passage and the preacher was likely going to speak on that. 

And if you're going to preach on a passage of Scripture, why not after it's been read?  Even if it's not much done nowadays, or required by the rubrics, it's not as if there's no precedent for preaching at Vespers.  There's certainly no prohibition that I can think of. 

In that case, I never had an objection to the RC Archbishop giving the homily during the Vespers service rather than afterward.
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« Reply #256 on: February 02, 2014, 01:49:01 AM »

In that case, I never had an objection to the RC Archbishop giving the homily during the Vespers service rather than afterward.

And there's at least one bishop who agrees with you.  Wink
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« Reply #257 on: February 02, 2014, 01:53:38 AM »

Further to the above:

The feast for St John the Evangelist has Vespers readings from 1 John; that of Apostle Andrew from 1 Peter. They're likely not the only ones to have epistle readings appointed for their feasts.
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« Reply #258 on: February 02, 2014, 02:05:10 AM »

Of those two links, one is be the Ecumenical community and the other one is Anglican. The only Orthodox text we have seen about it is the press release.
So unless someone comes up with either a video of the whole ceremony or the entire text of the booklet, everything here is mere speculation.
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« Reply #259 on: February 02, 2014, 02:09:19 AM »

Of those two links, one is be the Ecumenical community and the other one is Anglican. The only Orthodox text we have seen about it is the press release.
So unless someone comes up with either a video of the whole ceremony or the entire text of the booklet, everything here is mere speculation.

Are you suggesting that Ecumenical/Anglican sources aren't credible because they're not Orthodox?
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« Reply #260 on: February 02, 2014, 02:06:40 PM »

Are you suggesting that Ecumenical/Anglican sources aren't credible because they're not Orthodox?

I am suggesting that they are not familiar with the details of Orthodox liturgics.
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« Reply #261 on: February 02, 2014, 02:32:49 PM »

Are you suggesting that Ecumenical/Anglican sources aren't credible because they're not Orthodox?

I am suggesting that they are not familiar with the details of Orthodox liturgics.

But they got the basic order of Great Vespers correct.  It makes no sense for them, not being familiar with Orthodox liturgy, to get that correct but to mess up the order of sermons and ecumenical interventions which are probably more familiar to them. 

Besides, it is reasonable to presume that the order of the service was printed in full in the booklet handed out for the occasion: there is at least one photo of the deacon reading a litany out of that booklet rather than out of his own liturgical book.  If you have a document to refer back to when writing down your recollections for publishing on a website, then what?     
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« Reply #262 on: February 02, 2014, 02:38:28 PM »

They were using several languages in that service, so it makes sense to print it all out, with each part in the language that is to be used.

But again, I cannot swear that things where in one or another way. What I am doing though is urging caution against speculation.
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« Reply #263 on: February 02, 2014, 02:48:27 PM »

They were using several languages in that service, so it makes sense to print it all out, with each part in the language that is to be used.

I don't disagree with you, it's a sensible thing to do.  But it does mean that anyone who attended the service and wanted to write about it had access to a document with the full order of service, whether or not they were Orthodox.  Suggesting that the non-Orthodox may get things wrong because they are not familiar with Orthodox liturgics would be more convincing if they didn't have access to such a document which they could consult both at the event and afterwards. 

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But again, I cannot swear that things where in one or another way. What I am doing though is urging caution against speculation.

That cuts both ways.
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« Reply #264 on: February 03, 2014, 08:43:41 AM »

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« Reply #265 on: February 05, 2014, 10:12:33 AM »

Maria, you're going to have stop posting photos and start exploring other ways to present your case.

Taking a break from the internet is also a possibly worth considering IMO.  Smiley
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« Reply #266 on: February 05, 2014, 11:41:41 AM »

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Two photos of a Cardinal standing at the Holy Altar and giving a homily at this service:

Anyone can see he is standing on the solea, which is in the nave. He's clearly NOT in the altar, or at the Holy Table.

Maria, there is no need to add your own distortions to what happened there.  Angry

Well, excuse me, but the Greek Orthodox Priest said that the top of the stairs was considered part of the Holy Altar, and that neither laity nor heterodox were supposed to ascend that part. Have you ever seen Altar Boys go up those steps? No.

Maria, the iconostasis separates the nave from the altar area. The area the cardinal is standing on is called the ambon.

Please, stop embarrassing yourself.

I would not let non Orthodox clergy stand on the ambon. Even a deacon when he reads the Gospel does not stand on the ambon.
Of course, I would not participate in such a service to begin with, especially with a woman clergyperson. One of the objections that the Orthodox have had at the meetings of the World Council of Churches was the participation of women clergy. Because of this a pan Orthodox meeting agreed not to participate in so called ecumenical worship. I know that in America, the Bishops of the Antiochian Archdiocese forbid their clergy from participating in a service like the one pictured. It is in violation of the canons, and also sends the wrong message that a degree of unity exists between us and non-Orthodox that does not in fact exist.

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« Reply #267 on: February 05, 2014, 12:00:14 PM »

This picture below was also taken by the same photographer. Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014



This photo shows the same Metropolitan praying with the heterodox. Look at the photo album for more shots. https://picasaweb.google.com/103992193156016737396/EcumenicalWorshipInTheAnglicanChurchInKnokkeJanuary242014

Quote
Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014 - with the participation of His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras of Belgium and Oikonomos Bernard Peckstadt
It looks as if there might have been some wrongdoing, but if you want us to join you in condemning what happened in these photos, you're going to have to present a much stronger case than you have so far.

Apparently, clergy in "World" Orthodox can pray with heterodox in a "sacred" space without violating any Holy Canons?

No they cannot. Metropolitan Philip and the Bishops of the North American Antiochian Arcdhdiocese refuse to participate in such events. Years ago after the disaster at the World Council of Churches meeting in Australia, a pan-Orthodox meeting called by the Ecumenical Patriarch agreed that Orthodox would not participate in so-called ecumenical worship. We may witness the worship of others, and invite them to witness our services, but we do not concelebrate. I represented the Orthodox Church during the North American Orthodox Lutehran Orthodox Dialogue. Sometimes the Lutherans did a service and we watched, other times we did a service and the Lutherans watched, but we did not do services together. We were even very careful in the official press releases not to give the impression that we had concelebrated services. Serving together with non-Orthodox is not only in violation of the canons, but also gives the wrong impression that a union exists that does not exist. If Orthodox clergy lead a service together with a woman minister, that also gives the impression that we recognize the ordination of women.

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« Reply #268 on: February 05, 2014, 12:04:11 PM »

As I've said multiple times, the canons don't merely forbid "serving" with heretics, but any kind of prayer with them. That makes the picture Maria posted just one example of violating those canons.
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« Reply #269 on: February 05, 2014, 12:06:08 PM »

I was not sure if he were an Anglican prelate or a Roman Catholic Cardinal. Nevertheless, he sports a red "beanie" or skull cap.

What would an Anglican bishop be doing in Belgium?

They have Anglican Churches all over Europe. Americans and British have established Churches under an American Episcopal Bishop and Churches under an English Bishop. When I was a student in Frankfurt, I was still an Episcopalian, and attended an Episcopal Church to hear English once a week.

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