Author Topic: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014  (Read 27953 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #180 on: January 31, 2014, 05:48:27 PM »

No, you cannot, Maria. Just because you've actually seen people do something in one location does not mean that some other people did exactly the same thing in another location. You cannot accuse me of robbing a bank in Portland, OR, just because you saw an Orthodox Christian man rob a bank in L.A.
Apples and oranges.
No. Oranges and oranges.

The two Patriarchial Ecumenical Greek and English Vespers Services that I attended were identical. Thus, I have every reason to believe that the Patriarchial Ecumenical Vespers Service in Brussels other than being in Greek and in the vernacular language is almost the same service.
No, you do not, Maria, for you were not at the service in Brussels. You do not know what went on there.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 05:51:37 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,712
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #181 on: January 31, 2014, 06:09:46 PM »

No, you cannot, Maria. Just because you've actually seen people do something in one location does not mean that some other people did exactly the same thing in another location. You cannot accuse me of robbing a bank in Portland, OR, just because you saw an Orthodox Christian man rob a bank in L.A.
Apples and oranges.
No. Oranges and oranges.

I ask for forgiveness in advance, but I simply cannot resist.

http://youtu.be/ZrXGnwhZ58c
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #182 on: January 31, 2014, 06:12:05 PM »

No, you cannot, Maria. Just because you've actually seen people do something in one location does not mean that some other people did exactly the same thing in another location. You cannot accuse me of robbing a bank in Portland, OR, just because you saw an Orthodox Christian man rob a bank in L.A.
Apples and oranges.
No. Oranges and oranges.

The two Patriarchial Ecumenical Greek and English Vespers Services that I attended were identical. Thus, I have every reason to believe that the Patriarchial Ecumenical Vespers Service in Brussels other than being in Greek and in the vernacular language is almost the same service.
No, you do not, Maria, for you were not at the service in Brussels. You do not know what went on there.

Since the Orthodox Christian Church follows certain traditions, and since this was a PATRIARCHIAL ECUMENICAL VESPERS service, the likelihood of any deviation is slim. Except for different feast days and the resulting different troparia and readings, these Vespers service would be very similar following the Greek custom.

I have served as a Greek chanter, so I know how to prepare for these Vespers services.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 06:13:58 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #183 on: January 31, 2014, 06:15:15 PM »

No, you cannot, Maria. Just because you've actually seen people do something in one location does not mean that some other people did exactly the same thing in another location. You cannot accuse me of robbing a bank in Portland, OR, just because you saw an Orthodox Christian man rob a bank in L.A.
Apples and oranges.
No. Oranges and oranges.

I ask for forgiveness in advance, but I simply cannot resist.

http://youtu.be/ZrXGnwhZ58c


I beg your pardon, but I will not indulge.
You are on my ignore list.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,712
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #184 on: January 31, 2014, 06:17:29 PM »

No, you cannot, Maria. Just because you've actually seen people do something in one location does not mean that some other people did exactly the same thing in another location. You cannot accuse me of robbing a bank in Portland, OR, just because you saw an Orthodox Christian man rob a bank in L.A.
Apples and oranges.
No. Oranges and oranges.

I ask for forgiveness in advance, but I simply cannot resist.

http://youtu.be/ZrXGnwhZ58c


I beg your pardon, but I will not indulge.
You are on my ignore list.


It's not a very good list if you answer me just to tell me you are ignoring me.  That's a 5 year old type of ignoring.   Adults just don't speak to people when they don't want to.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Gorazd

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,160
  • Faith: 7 Councils
  • Jurisdiction: First without Equals
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #185 on: January 31, 2014, 06:23:02 PM »
These were not Patriarchal vespers in Belgium, the Patriarch was not present. The responsibility was with the metropolitan, who was present and presiding.

(As for LA, again, I have no idea what happened there.)

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,732
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #186 on: January 31, 2014, 06:23:18 PM »

No, you cannot, Maria. Just because you've actually seen people do something in one location does not mean that some other people did exactly the same thing in another location. You cannot accuse me of robbing a bank in Portland, OR, just because you saw an Orthodox Christian man rob a bank in L.A.
Apples and oranges.
No. Oranges and oranges.

I ask for forgiveness in advance, but I simply cannot resist.

http://youtu.be/ZrXGnwhZ58c


Obviously part of a Hellenic plot to take over the world, one bottle of Windex at a time..... ;)

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,712
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #187 on: January 31, 2014, 06:24:52 PM »

No, you cannot, Maria. Just because you've actually seen people do something in one location does not mean that some other people did exactly the same thing in another location. You cannot accuse me of robbing a bank in Portland, OR, just because you saw an Orthodox Christian man rob a bank in L.A.
Apples and oranges.
No. Oranges and oranges.

I ask for forgiveness in advance, but I simply cannot resist.

http://youtu.be/ZrXGnwhZ58c


Obviously part of a Hellenic plot to take over the world, one bottle of Windex at a time..... ;)


Maybe we can just spray the Ambo with it.....
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,587
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #188 on: January 31, 2014, 06:36:00 PM »

I ask for forgiveness in advance, but I simply cannot resist.

http://youtu.be/ZrXGnwhZ58c


Obviously part of a Hellenic plot to take over the world, one bottle of Windex at a time..... ;)


Maybe we can just spray the Ambo with it.....

Great idea! That'll get rid of those nasty ecumenistic germs ....  :laugh:
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 06:37:00 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,343
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to FOCOF
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #189 on: January 31, 2014, 07:18:56 PM »
I understand your position to be that established liturgical practice must be followed even if there is no canon about it. (And that does seem to me like "stare decisis" in common law.)
Do I understand you correctly? If not, what else did you mean?

I don't know enough about civil law to say anything about "stare decisis", but basically yes, established liturgical practice must be followed even if there is no canon.  In a sense, it has "the force of law".  But more than that, established liturgical practice has dogmatic significance in the Orthodox Church because liturgy itself has such significance--the liturgy itself is, in a sense, canonical (cf. St Basil, De Spiritu Sancto, 27) and a source of our theology.  

Economy (by definition a derogation from the standard) may be applied in certain situations, but not just for any reason at all.  Even when it is applied, it does not "overturn" the law because the "law" itself is rooted in principles of faith.  

Now...

OK, so which is it?  Do we need a canon to justify a practice, or is precedent sufficiently binding?  

The strange thing is: You only seem to count precedent that speaks in favour of your position. Why would not the precedent of the Patriarch be binding, or the precent of the parishes with mixed choirs I mentioned, from three different patriarchates?

Since economy doesn't represent a change in the law anymore than it implies a change in the faith which undergirds it, "precedent", like "economy", has to harmonise with the rest of the tradition in order for it to be legitimate.  It's not simply a matter of saying "Well, Patriarch X has done Y a few times, so it must be OK".  In deciding if/how to apply economy in a particular situation within his diocese, a Metropolitan may look to the precedent set by his Patriarch (naturally), but that alone doesn't absolve him of responsibility to consider the matter for himself in the context of the entire tradition of the Church.  That's why I have a problem with a comment you made earlier:

"...the only precedent I would consider binding to Metropolitan Athinagoras is that of his own Patriarch, his all-holiness Bartholomew."

In terms of the responsible exercise of his episcopal ministry within his local Church as its father and shepherd, as a point of unity within the local Church, and as the one through whom its communion with all the other local Churches is maintained, the local bishop cannot limit himself merely to the precedent set by his own primate.  He is ordained for the service of the Church, not for service to a particular patriarch.  Usually, such a limited focus is only useful for avoiding trouble, currying favour, and other "short term" benefits.  It may, but does not necessarily, harmonise with the received tradition.  

Quote
To argue against "legalistic obsessions" in Orthodoxy and in support of the ability of bishops to apply economy in favour of X even if/when a canon explicitly prohibits X, you paraphrased a Scriptural passage about "grace".  Never mind that you ripped it out of context (we're not talking about the Mosaic Law in this thread), that's beside the point: in Orthodoxy, "grace" is linked to "faith" and "truth", not opposed to them.    
I did mean that we must in fact be careful that the canons don't become a new law in the Mosaic sense, i.e. one our salvation depends on. Because that is what our Old Calendarists seem to think: One canonical regulation is not followed, and we're a "sinking ship" with "false bishops".

It's not my place to defend "your Old Calendarists", but my own discussions with them lead me to believe that this is a convenient caricature.  Sure, there are people among them who believe such ridiculous things, but such people are found even in the "canonical Church".  When I speak with them, the sense I get is that it's not the violation of one canonical regulation which makes a Church a "sinking ship with false bishops", but rather the repeated violation and dismissal as irrelevant of many canonical principles when, even within living memory, it was not always so.  You and they can argue over all that until the Parousia, but theirs is a more nuanced conviction than you are willing to admit.  

Quote
Canons are guidelines for Church practice but ikonomia does in fact enable a bishop to act otherwise.

If that statement, as you've worded it, is understood properly, it's fine (and I've said as much).  
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 07:22:43 PM by Mor Ephrem »

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,343
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to FOCOF
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #190 on: January 31, 2014, 07:19:51 PM »
I ask for forgiveness in advance, but I simply cannot resist.

http://youtu.be/ZrXGnwhZ58c


Obviously part of a Hellenic plot to take over the world, one bottle of Windex at a time..... ;)


Maybe we can just spray the Ambo with it.....

 ;)

Offline Gorazd

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,160
  • Faith: 7 Councils
  • Jurisdiction: First without Equals
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #191 on: January 31, 2014, 07:31:11 PM »
Mor Ephrem,

I was speaking about common law, which has stare decisis, not civil law, which has jurisprudence constante.

But back to the Brussels ecumenical event: First of all, there was no liturgy. Second, even if you use the term liturgy to include vespers, those were unaltered and celebrated by Orthodox clergy. Only after their completion did non-Orthodox address the people present.

How, for Pete's sake, does something that happens after vespers break liturgical tradition That just so fails to get into my head.

Offline Nephi

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,829
  • A non-Chalcedonian in Chalcedonian clothing.
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #192 on: January 31, 2014, 07:36:23 PM »
But back to the Brussels ecumenical event: First of all, there was no liturgy. Second, even if you use the term liturgy to include vespers, those were unaltered and celebrated by Orthodox clergy. Only after their completion did non-Orthodox address the people present.
I don't think you have any way to claim this absolutely.

Quote
How, for Pete's sake, does something that happens after vespers break liturgical tradition That just so fails to get into my head.
I have no idea how Mor's posts are hard at all to understand.

Offline FormerCalvinist

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #193 on: January 31, 2014, 07:51:06 PM »
Personally I feel it's not a good idea to pay too much attention to these things. In the past, information could not spread in the way that it does today. People were not aware of some possibly problematic events going on halfway around the world. I have to wonder just how much strange stuff went on in parishes in the past, when those who knew of it were limited to just the people present when it occurred, and news of it couldn't spread to the ends of the earth overnight. Being able to see all of these things the way we can today may create a distorted view of the state of the Church for some people. It's an unprecedented state, and you can end up worrying too much about things far away than caring for things close to you. I think that Roman Catholics are running into this problem as well, with the media surrounding the Pope. In the past people did not know everything that the Pope did or said on a daily basis and now that we do it is causing trouble for many people. Don't worry too much about these controversies and pay attention to your own salvation. Don't allow yourself to be scandalized. I'm not trying to stifle discussion or anything, though. Just throwing my opinion out there.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #194 on: January 31, 2014, 08:01:56 PM »

How, for Pete's sake, does something that happens after vespers break liturgical tradition That just so fails to get into my head.

The whole idea of an Patriarchial Ecumenical Vespers is novel and something new introduced during the 20th century; worse is having the participation of Protestant and Catholic ministers during that Vespers Service when we should not be praying with heretics at all.

Here is the deacon incensing during that Vespers' service:



Below is a Protestant Minister reading a prayer/scripture from his booklet during Vespers following soon after that deacon.



Here is the Deacon incensing, which follows that prayer from the Protestant Minister during Vespers



Here is another shot of the Deacon incensing. This time he faces the Metropolitan. And this is obviously still during Vespers. The service has not yet ended, and yet several Protestant Ministers have said prayers or readings.



Here is the Metropolitan during said Vespers:



Here are some Catholic clergy clearly following along in their booklets during said Vespers.



Here is another heterodox minister (probably Catholic or Anglican) reading from the Bible or saying one of the appointed prayers at this Vespers' service.



Here is that female Minister also reading an appointed prayer from Vespers.



Here is the Catholic Prelate addressing the congregation from the Ambo.



Here is a picture of the Metropolitan still at his throne presiding during Vespers:



And here is the deacon leading a concluding prayer from Vespers. Notice his orarion held high?



And here is the conclusion of Vespers



With the blessing of the Metropolitan concluding it:



More concluding prayers from the parish priest:



And here is a speech given AFTER VESPERS on the SOLEA by a Protestant Minister just before the signing of some booklets.



How is this so hard to understand?

I have seen the exact same ceremonies and procedures at St. Sophia Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Los Angeles, once when the current EP visited us and also when Archbishop Sypridon came.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 08:08:07 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,343
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to FOCOF
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #195 on: January 31, 2014, 08:02:30 PM »
Mor Ephrem,

I was speaking about common law, which has stare decisis, not civil law, which has jurisprudence constante.

But back to the Brussels ecumenical event: First of all, there was no liturgy. Second, even if you use the term liturgy to include vespers, those were unaltered and celebrated by Orthodox clergy. Only after their completion did non-Orthodox address the people present.

How, for Pete's sake, does something that happens after vespers break liturgical tradition That just so fails to get into my head.

Gorazd,

Respectfully, I would suggest that if you studied theology as well as you seem to have studied law, it would make sense.  It's not like I haven't explained my argument and the theological principles I base it on.  If my amateur's reference to civil law led you to clarify for me the difference between it and common law, perhaps that just underscores the problem: we are using terms differently.    

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #196 on: January 31, 2014, 08:11:43 PM »
Mor Ephrem,

I was speaking about common law, which has stare decisis, not civil law, which has jurisprudence constante.

But back to the Brussels ecumenical event: First of all, there was no liturgy. Second, even if you use the term liturgy to include vespers, those were unaltered and celebrated by Orthodox clergy. Only after their completion did non-Orthodox address the people present.

How, for Pete's sake, does something that happens after vespers break liturgical tradition That just so fails to get into my head.

Gorazd,

Respectfully, I would suggest that if you studied theology as well as you seem to have studied law, it would make sense.  It's not like I haven't explained my argument and the theological principles I base it on.  If my amateur's reference to civil law led you to clarify for me the difference between it and common law, perhaps that just underscores the problem: we are using terms differently.    

I have attended many Vespers services both Great Vespers and All Night Vigil which included Great Vespers, on Saturdays and on Feast Days.

The Ecumenical Vespers' Service is not like Great Vespers as there are many extra prayers included for Christian Unity, also I recall more scripture readings. It is novel, something invented for the 20th century Ecumenical Movement.

If I may be so bold, I would characterize the Ecumenical Vespers as a Catholic "Clown Mass."
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 08:13:39 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #197 on: January 31, 2014, 08:18:00 PM »

How, for Pete's sake, does something that happens after vespers break liturgical tradition That just so fails to get into my head.

The whole idea of an Patriarchial Ecumenical Vespers is novel and something new introduced during the 20th century; worse is having the participation of Protestant and Catholic ministers during that Vespers Service when we should not be praying with heretics at all.

Here is the deacon incensing during that Vespers' service:

*** (pictures removed to reduce post length)

How is this so hard to understand?

I have seen the exact same ceremonies and procedures at St. Sophia Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Los Angeles, once when the current EP visited us and also when Archbishop Sypridon came.


I notice, Maria, that you gave an explanation of every photo you presented to us. How can you possibly know what was going on in each photo without having been at the Brussels service yourself? Again, just because you've seen one "patriarchal ecumenical vespers" doesn't mean you've seen them all.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 08:19:43 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #198 on: January 31, 2014, 08:23:53 PM »

How, for Pete's sake, does something that happens after vespers break liturgical tradition That just so fails to get into my head.

The whole idea of an Patriarchial Ecumenical Vespers is novel and something new introduced during the 20th century; worse is having the participation of Protestant and Catholic ministers during that Vespers Service when we should not be praying with heretics at all.

Here is the deacon incensing during that Vespers' service:

*** (pictures removed to reduce post length)

How is this so hard to understand?

I have seen the exact same ceremonies and procedures at St. Sophia Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Los Angeles, once when the current EP visited us and also when Archbishop Sypridon came.


I notice, Maria, that you gave an explanation of every photo you presented to us. How can you possibly know what was going on in each photo without having been at the Brussels service yourself? Again, just because you've seen one "patriarchal ecumenical vespers" doesn't mean you've seen them all.

The two Ecumenical Vespers  I witnessed were the same ones. I know the procedure. I sang in the choir and we were briefed repeatedly.

I followed the pictures as posted as anyone with any decent education could do.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 08:25:10 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,343
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to FOCOF
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #199 on: January 31, 2014, 08:25:29 PM »
The whole idea of an Patriarchial Ecumenical Vespers is novel and something new introduced during the 20th century;

Maria,

Let's not talk about something that, in this thread, only you claim to have seen.  First of all, it's not the subject of the thread.  Second, we have no idea what it is: there is no "Patriarchal Ecumenical Vespers" in the liturgical books of any Orthodox Church, nor canons describing such a thing, and we don't know the circumstances surrounding what you claim to have experienced.     

Quote
worse is having the participation of Protestant and Catholic ministers during that Vespers Service when we should not be praying with heretics at all.

This is an overreach.  There's no prohibition, as far as I know, on non-Orthodox people attending Orthodox services.  Even the strictest reading of the canons would allow them to attend everything except the Liturgy of the Faithful during the Divine Liturgy, even if only from the narthex.   
   
Regarding the photos you posted, two points:

1.  I don't know if we can assume that the order in which they appear on the website is the order in which the events took place.  Clearly it's all happening in the church, but that's about it.  For all we know, Gorazd could be correct that the "ecumenical" stuff happened after Vespers.  I don't think he's proven that, but I don't think you're proving the opposite just by posting photos in a particular order. 

2.  Your captions appear to be accurate in certain cases, but in others there's a lot you're presuming which has yet to be proven.  That's not helping any argument you're trying to make.  For example:

Quote
Below is a Protestant Minister reading a prayer/scripture from his booklet during Vespers following soon after that deacon.

Here is another shot of the Deacon incensing. This time he faces the Metropolitan. And this is obviously still during Vespers. The service has not yet ended, and yet several Protestant Ministers have said prayers or readings.

Here is another heterodox minister (probably Catholic or Anglican) reading from the Bible or saying one of the appointed prayers at this Vespers' service.

Here is that female Minister also reading an appointed prayer from Vespers.

Every single thing in bold face is an assumption you're making.  I gather that much even from the way you've worded it, without knowing anything about what happened in Belgium. 


Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #200 on: January 31, 2014, 08:27:55 PM »

How, for Pete's sake, does something that happens after vespers break liturgical tradition That just so fails to get into my head.

The whole idea of an Patriarchial Ecumenical Vespers is novel and something new introduced during the 20th century; worse is having the participation of Protestant and Catholic ministers during that Vespers Service when we should not be praying with heretics at all.

Here is the deacon incensing during that Vespers' service:

*** (pictures removed to reduce post length)

How is this so hard to understand?

I have seen the exact same ceremonies and procedures at St. Sophia Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Los Angeles, once when the current EP visited us and also when Archbishop Sypridon came.


I notice, Maria, that you gave an explanation of every photo you presented to us. How can you possibly know what was going on in each photo without having been at the Brussels service yourself? Again, just because you've seen one "patriarchal ecumenical vespers" doesn't mean you've seen them all.

The services I witnessed were the same ones. I know the procedure. I sang in the choir and we were briefed repeatedly.
You cannot make a hasty generalization from your limited experience and expect anyone to buy it.

I followed the pictures as posted as anyone with any decent education could do.
Where did you get the information that you supplied as an explanation for the photos? You were never in Brussels. Again, your assertion that the service in Brussels must have been identical to the ones you claim to have seen in L.A. is a hasty generalization I just cannot take seriously.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 08:52:09 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #201 on: January 31, 2014, 08:30:17 PM »
The truth is hard to swallow at times, isn't it.

If I am the only one who has ever sung at two Ecumenical Vespers services, then the rest of you should do the same to be educated about what is really going on.

After all, these Ecumenical Vespers' services have been going on since at least the early 1960s, if not starting in the 1920's with EP Meletios.
And yes, these services are novel and can be compared with clown masses celebrated by Roman Catholics.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #202 on: January 31, 2014, 08:33:09 PM »
Perhaps this is why Retired Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald) was so bold as to make an announcement that none of his clergy or choir members were to participate or sing at one of those Ecumenical Vespers services. He knew exactly what they were.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #203 on: January 31, 2014, 08:34:17 PM »
The truth is hard to swallow at times, isn't it.
Is that why you keep dodging it?

If I am the only one who has ever sung at two Ecumenical Vespers services, then the rest of you should do the same to be educated about what is really going on.
And yet I'd be willing to bet that it would still give us no insight into what specifically happened in Brussels. Just because you've seen such a service in one place does not mean that those who put on such a service in Brussels even followed the same rubrics. You. Just. Cannot. Make. Generalizations. Like. That.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #204 on: January 31, 2014, 08:35:23 PM »
Perhaps this is why Retired Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald) was so bold as to make an announcement that none of his clergy or choir members were to participate or sing at one of those Ecumenical Vespers services. He knew exactly what they were.
He can speak as an authority on what he's seen, but neither he nor you can speak as an authority on something you haven't seen. You didn't see the Brussels service, for you were not there.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #205 on: January 31, 2014, 08:36:48 PM »
The truth is hard to swallow at times, isn't it.
Is that why you keep dodging it?

If I am the only one who has ever sung at two Ecumenical Vespers services, then the rest of you should do the same to be educated about what is really going on.
And yet I'd be willing to bet that it would still give us no insight into what specifically happened in Brussels. Just because you've seen such a service in one place does not mean that those who put on such a service in Brussels even followed the same rubrics. You. Just. Cannot. Make. Generalizations. Like. That.

Have you ever attended ONE Ecumenical Patriarchial Vespers?

Just ONE? If so, did Protestants and Catholics just sit in silence, or did they go up to the Solea or Ambo to deliver prayers, read scriptures, or give a speech?

Goodnight all. Time to fix dinner.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 08:38:18 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #206 on: January 31, 2014, 08:42:56 PM »
The truth is hard to swallow at times, isn't it.
Is that why you keep dodging it?

If I am the only one who has ever sung at two Ecumenical Vespers services, then the rest of you should do the same to be educated about what is really going on.
And yet I'd be willing to bet that it would still give us no insight into what specifically happened in Brussels. Just because you've seen such a service in one place does not mean that those who put on such a service in Brussels even followed the same rubrics. You. Just. Cannot. Make. Generalizations. Like. That.

Have you ever attended ONE Ecumenical Patriarchial Vespers?
Does it really matter whether I have? I sincerely doubt that my attendance at an Ecumenical Patriarchal Vespers (if there even is such a thing) in L.A. or in Portland, OR, would give me any insight into what happened specifically at the recent service in Brussels. Unlike you, I don't assume that they're the same.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 08:50:43 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,343
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to FOCOF
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #207 on: January 31, 2014, 08:44:59 PM »
The truth is hard to swallow at times, isn't it.

If I am the only one who has ever sung at two Ecumenical Vespers services, then the rest of you should do the same to be educated about what is really going on.

After all, these Ecumenical Vespers' services have been going on since at least the early 1960s, if not starting in the 1920's with EP Meletios.
And yes, these services are novel and can be compared with clown masses celebrated by Roman Catholics.

Maria,

In the liturgical practice of the Eastern Orthodox Church, I'm familiar with:

a) Daily Vespers
b) Small Vespers
c) Great Vespers

along with variations during Lent, Holy Week, and Pascha. 

There's no such thing as "Ecumenical Vespers".  Now, I can understand a Vespers in conjunction with an ecumenical event, named "Ecumenical Vespers" by some guy who may or may not know better, but that will most likely reflect one of the above orders of service and not be its own thing.  And if it is its own thing, you'll have to prove that with more than just your say-so.   

Nor is there a service called "Ecumenical Patriarchal Vespers", unless everything an Ecumenical Patriarch does gets to have "Ecumenical Patriarchal" attached to the name (e.g., "Ecumenical Patriarchal Tea Time", "Ecumenical Patriarchal Pizza Night", "Ecumenical Patriarchal Trip to the Mall", "Ecumenical Patriarchal Bathroom Break", "Ecumenical Patriarchal Doctor's Visit", etc.).  Of course, this is silly, useless, and proves nothing of what you think. 

You're really going to have to put forward more information than what you have here in order to justify your claims.  "The truth is hard to swallow at times, isn't it" isn't going to cut it when you're not forthcoming with truth. 

Offline Gorazd

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,160
  • Faith: 7 Councils
  • Jurisdiction: First without Equals
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #208 on: January 31, 2014, 09:44:11 PM »
I admit that I have not proven that the "ecumenical stuff" happened after vespers. However, everything I am saying is based on the official press release.

If the press release makes incorrect statements, I have nothing to do with that. But I guess we can consider a press release by an Orthodox Metropolis to be correct until proven wrong.

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,732
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #209 on: January 31, 2014, 10:09:42 PM »
Actually, I have attended one Hierarchical Divine Liturgy presided by HAH Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew at Madison Square Garden in New York a few years back. It was a lot of things -  it was really long, there were very poor acoustics, it was seemingly disorganized and it abruptly ended (I recall a priest taking the microphone during the celebrants' communion and telling us (maybe 8,000 or so in the stands) in the arena that we needed to leave as quickly as possible after communion as the liturgy was running late and the Archdiocese would incur a $50,000 penalty if we weren't out by one pm since the Garden had an ice hockey game that evening. It was surreal.), but one thing it was not was "ecumenical" as there were no non Orthodox clergy to be seen nor any horrible idol worshipping pan heresy stuff in view except maybe the scoreboard.....) (And I have to admit, the Russians would have orchestrated a "better show."  ;) )

Offline Velsigne

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,043
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #210 on: February 01, 2014, 05:36:06 AM »
So, you're saying it's okay to be a paranoid fanatic if some random layperson on a website isn't really sure what all is going on, or at least hesitates to make snap judgments against bishops in a church across the pond?  

It's less than honest to try to understand what was taking place and to analyze it with the information at hand?

I don't think it's OK to be a paranoid fanatic at all.  But if my response to someone who disagrees with me is to dismiss them as a nut when they are not nutty at all, nothing good comes from that.  

I don't remember calling anyone by any derogatory terms.  I described things as they appear to be.


By all means, try to get all the facts and understand what happened, but why should one or the other person be allowed to ignore facts they don't like?  Nothing good comes from that either.  


Not 'ignoring facts they don't like'.  Simply stating that there isn't sufficient information to draw the conclusions that it seems Maria would like  us to draw, vindicated by her referring to it as a ‘clown Mass’.  




Quote
Getting upset doesn't seem a wise course of action since:

1) I have no control over any of it
Sure, but you could extend that to a lot of things about which we get upset even though we have no control over them.  And I'm not even sure what "upset" means here.  I'm not sitting in my home weeping about a Vespers in Belgium, that would be stupid.  But it's not stupid to have questions.


I didn’t say it is stupid to have questions, but no one here has any answers.  

Quote
2) Do not have enough information to clearly understand to my satisfaction

That's why people ask questions...?
See above.

Quote
3) Believe it was only posted as a political pot shot at canonical EO by an member of an old calendarist group

Nothing in the OP suggests anything other than that the person posted a news story about an ecumenical service accompanied by some pictures captioned with a brief explanation of what is depicted.  You are reading all of the above into it when it is not necessarily so.  


Given all Jonathan Gress' and Maria's comments, you still want to maintain that?

Quote
4) I never, ever see this stuff occur in my regular parish, where my real life is lived, though we have shared prayer at a funeral of a woman with the Ethiopian Orthodox community.  They came to pray for her.  Not sure what canon that falls under, but they are like family because of her.   I didn't realize until your comments that you felt something negative about "EO" people.  I'm very sorry to hear that.  

 

Wait...what are you talking about?


About how everything isn’t perfect in real life; about how living in the rarified air of an idealized world can lead to that dead sort of no-faith trap.  Things happen, like a funeral, and two communities not in Communion with one another set aside differences and pray together.

It is also about your comments earlier in this thread.
It is also about the validity of one person saying "I experienced this so it must be true of everywhere at all times."  Another person saying "I have not experienced that so it must be true everywhere at all times."  Which one is true?  I was pointing out the fallacies in Maria's thinking.  

Quote
5)  In a way you are right with to be careful with the little things to be worthy of the larger things.  But then there are two kinds of zeal St. Isaac the Syrian talks about in Homily 51 & 55.  Also, striking a balance among various expressions of Orthodoxy seems normal to me, i.e., the monastics inspire us and teach us how to push on toward our goal, Christ Himself.  

6) There probably isn't any church that does everything perfectly every time.  Criticism of that can fall under the Homily 51 part and also a study of ecclesiastical history.  Some of those old village churches back in the day, maybe still today, were not much more than a stone hut.  

I'm not sure what you're talking about or its relevance...sorry.  

The first is the topic of misguided zeal about which Saints and Fathers have written.  St. Nektarios sums it up very well.  Gorazd brought up ikonomia, and you pressed the point that where one person stood was not in the correct place, and that sends a larger signal to the entire world that the Greek and Russian Orthodox have caved into the Papacy.  There has to be a balance between zeal expressed as demand for idealized perfection and ikonomia.   St. Isaac addresses these issues in his homilies, so I gave you references, but there are probably better ones.

Second part, you seem very concerned with the exact details of where someone is standing and indicating that this can be globalized into a major problem, or signal of some type, if you will.  

The local churches have had major differences from area to area in many details and traditions throughout time.  I don't think where he was standing is a tradition, but I don't know for sure.  But I'm pretty sure it doesn't signal a cave in to the Papacy.

I am not maintaining that there is no possibility that something might have been done in poor judgement, or that something might have just happened as a mistake, or any number of other possibilities we can't know unless we ask the Metropolitan to explain.   This isn’t ‘smoke and mirrors’ it’s called being fair and thoughtful and circumspect about judging a Bishop.


Quote
7) It will not further my salvation.  I just hope the hooks and jabs don't cause people younger in the Orthodox faith to fall away, which I've read as a stated goal by some.  


Again, to what are you referring?

To people just starting out, like lovesupreme, who early on came onto this thread and expressed uncertainty and that he was disturbed by this thread, or any other number of people who might look in and feel confused by the hysteria of it all and zinging all the hot words around, 'heretics!' 'ecumenists' etc.  





Quote

"... Sailing alongside the Ark of the Church are certain pirate ships. The largest one has the Pope as its captain, who has been trying to take over the Ark of Orthodoxy and become captain by expelling Christ. Next to it are other pirate ships and rafts. Among them there is a string of 5-10 small fishing boats (that is how many its larger groups are), then there is the rotten ship of Zealotism with its black flag that says "Orthodoxy or Death" on it. The Zealots' profession is fishing, which is why it has to take place in the dark and is therefore always nocturnal. The fish that they catch are those who slip out of the Ark of the canonical Church. They become dizzy from the tempests caused by the scandals of the Church; they lose their balance and fall into the water. Then the trawler that is tailing them fishes them out. It promises them that it will take them directly to Paradise and that it was a stroke of good fortune that they had fallen out of the Ark of the Church."

Excerpt from the book "The Crisis of the Church in Greece: The Trap of Zealotism", by Monk Michael.

I'm not sure why everyone thinks I'm an Old Calendarist Zealot, it's really odd...

Not sure who ‘everyone’ is, but I don't think you are, as far as I know, but then I don't know much about you.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 05:59:21 AM by Velsigne »
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline Velsigne

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,043
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #211 on: February 01, 2014, 05:46:41 AM »
Personally I feel it's not a good idea to pay too much attention to these things. In the past, information could not spread in the way that it does today. People were not aware of some possibly problematic events going on halfway around the world. I have to wonder just how much strange stuff went on in parishes in the past, when those who knew of it were limited to just the people present when it occurred, and news of it couldn't spread to the ends of the earth overnight. Being able to see all of these things the way we can today may create a distorted view of the state of the Church for some people. It's an unprecedented state, and you can end up worrying too much about things far away than caring for things close to you. I think that Roman Catholics are running into this problem as well, with the media surrounding the Pope. In the past people did not know everything that the Pope did or said on a daily basis and now that we do it is causing trouble for many people. Don't worry too much about these controversies and pay attention to your own salvation. Don't allow yourself to be scandalized. I'm not trying to stifle discussion or anything, though. Just throwing my opinion out there.

That's a very good observation.
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,732
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #212 on: February 01, 2014, 09:18:01 AM »
Post 210 by Velsigne offers a rare breath of clarity in thought in approaching a contentious and emotional subject. Greatly appreciated.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 14,807
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #213 on: February 01, 2014, 12:16:16 PM »
The RC archbishop should not have been allowed to do what he was doing, whatever it was. Yes, this is ecumenism gone wrong. No, I do not believe it represents a general cancer of heresy infecting the Church. Knowing the history of the Church, and how complicated and ambiguous the lines of communion have sometimes been over the centuries between us and the RC's, it is difficult for such a little thing to make me panic. Canonical breaches were routinely made and ignored well before the term "ecumenism" came into existence. But I would agree that splitting hairs as to whether he was really standing at the altar or not is not particularly meaningful.

Yeah, if this were the only event of its kind, never to have occurred before or subsequently, I might be able to write it off as a freak accident. But as we all know, this is not the case.

And my point was not that it is an isolated incident, but that it does not represent some grave doctrinal shift in the Church. Again, we have centuries of precedents without anyone breaking away to form Old Calendarist groups. This schism-at-the-drop-of-a-hat attitude is modern.

Sure it represents a grave doctrinal shift. The heterodox are outside the Church: to pray with them entails accepting that they are somehow in the Church. That's it.

If it's that simple, then it already happened centuries ago and your sect as the same problem as the Orthodox Church does.

Huh?

Not only joint prayer, but communion with heterodox has happened in some places in the Orthodox Church for centuries, without the repercussions you would expect.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,343
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to FOCOF
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #214 on: February 01, 2014, 04:24:41 PM »
I don't remember calling anyone by any derogatory terms.  I described things as they appear to be.

I never alleged such a thing, so I'm not sure why you thought so. 

Quote
Not 'ignoring facts they don't like'.  Simply stating that there isn't sufficient information to draw the conclusions that it seems Maria would like  us to draw, vindicated by her referring to it as a ‘clown Mass’.  

If there's not sufficient information to draw the conclusions Maria appears to have been drawing (and I agree, which is why I called her out on it), it's also true that there wasn't sufficient information for many of the defences that were made against such conclusions.  A careful reading of the entire thread will reveal that. 

A careful reading of the thread will also reveal other gems: for example, the first person to mention "clown Mass" in the context of this thread was yourself (reply #28).  After this, Maria did indeed make the comparison you allege above, but that was one hundred and sixty-eight posts later (#196), even though she was not silent in the interim and a lot was said by many in that time.  Should I conclude from this that you and perhaps others were attempting to provoke a reaction?     

Quote
I didn’t say it is stupid to have questions, but no one here has any answers.  

I would concede this point if the entire thread focused exclusively on the event in Brussels: no one here seems to have any certain knowledge of what happened other than an official press release and some photos. 

But a lot of the discussion dealt with individual elements and "If X, then Y"...at least, I've been careful in my contributions to make my points in this way.  And when the discussion then turns into a disagreement over whether X really means/implies Y in Orthodox tradition, "prove it from canons", etc., I do not at all concede that there are no answers.  None of us here invented Orthodoxy within the past year, we have at least two thousand years of information to work with.  That doesn't mean that everything is black and white, but neither is it hopelessly confusing and not worth the bother. 

Quote
Quote
3) Believe it was only posted as a political pot shot at canonical EO by an member of an old calendarist group

Nothing in the OP suggests anything other than that the person posted a news story about an ecumenical service accompanied by some pictures captioned with a brief explanation of what is depicted.  You are reading all of the above into it when it is not necessarily so.  


Given all Jonathan Gress' and Maria's comments, you still want to maintain that?

Yes, I will continue to maintain that.  Nothing in the OP suggests anything other than that Maria posted a news story about an ecumenical service accompanied by some pictures captioned with a brief explanation of what is depicted.  Anything else has to be read into it by others, and that's exactly what happened: "canonical EO" were the first to impute to Maria motives that are not evident from the OP or to understand the event as an example of inappropriate ecumenical activity. 

I do not accept everything in the comments by Maria and Jonathan.  I think Maria has shown herself in this thread to be imprecise on details, too dependent on her own unsubstantiated recollections of unrelated events in the past, and too ready to draw hasty conclusions.  Nor I do not condone some of the pointed language Jonathan has used in his posts, not only because I don't agree with all the conclusions he draws but also because disagreements can be expressed agreeably while remaining disagreements. 

That said, I do believe that some of their points were valid and reflected normative Orthodox teaching and practice even within the "canonical EO", and that rather than discuss issues on this level, others were quick to point out their ecclesiastical status as disqualifying anything they had to say, suggesting unnecessary doubts (e.g., whether this was actually a Vespers, whether the press release/photos can be trusted since these things can be faked quite easily), and imputing to them motivations that were unfounded based on the information available at the time of such comments.  If, in that context, their comments escalated to an unhealthy place, I will not excuse them, but neither am I going to blame them and them alone for poisoning the well.

Quote
Quote
4) I never, ever see this stuff occur in my regular parish, where my real life is lived, though we have shared prayer at a funeral of a woman with the Ethiopian Orthodox community.  They came to pray for her.  Not sure what canon that falls under, but they are like family because of her.   I didn't realize until your comments that you felt something negative about "EO" people.  I'm very sorry to hear that.  

 

Wait...what are you talking about?


About how everything isn’t perfect in real life; about how living in the rarified air of an idealized world can lead to that dead sort of no-faith trap.  Things happen, like a funeral, and two communities not in Communion with one another set aside differences and pray together.

It is silly to equate the pastoral circumstances presented by a death in a community with the pastoral circumstances of "ecumenical Vespers".  I believe that a canonical case for "strictness" can be made even in such difficult situations as funerals (and in fact, IIRC at least one of your own "canonical EO" jurisdictions has made that case on paper, as seen in documents I provided above), but my personal opinion on such matters is much more lenient and I would personally advocate such leniency in certain situations.  Even so, an "ecumenical Vespers" is just not the same kind of pastoral circumstance as a funeral, and so it's not useful to bring it up here.   

Quote
It is also about your comments earlier in this thread.

Which ones?  I'm not sure which comments of mine led you to conclude I have negative feelings about Eastern Orthodoxy. 

Quote
It is also about the validity of one person saying "I experienced this so it must be true of everywhere at all times."  Another person saying "I have not experienced that so it must be true everywhere at all times."  Which one is true?  I was pointing out the fallacies in Maria's thinking.  

But Maria and those being lumped in with her are not the only ones "guilty" of such a "fallacy". 

Quote
Gorazd brought up ikonomia, and you pressed the point that where one person stood was not in the correct place, and that sends a larger signal to the entire world that the Greek and Russian Orthodox have caved into the Papacy.  

Second part, you seem very concerned with the exact details of where someone is standing and indicating that this can be globalized into a major problem, or signal of some type, if you will.

The local churches have had major differences from area to area in many details and traditions throughout time.  I don't think where he was standing is a tradition, but I don't know for sure.  But I'm pretty sure it doesn't signal a cave in to the Papacy

I absolutely reject such an interpretation of my words.  No where did I say--no where would I say--such patently idiotic things.  But if this is how you interpreted my posts in this thread, it only confirms my personal suspicion of what exactly is going on in this thread.   
 
Quote
I am not maintaining that there is no possibility that something might have been done in poor judgement, or that something might have just happened as a mistake, or any number of other possibilities we can't know unless we ask the Metropolitan to explain.   This isn’t ‘smoke and mirrors’ it’s called being fair and thoughtful and circumspect about judging a Bishop.

At least one "canonical EO" poster suggested early on that this service might not have been a Vespers, but that if it was in fact a Vespers, "swift and decisive action should, and must, be taken, against the errant bishop and who authorized and participated in it".  But now that we are sure that this was in fact a Vespers, no such reiteration or call to action has been made by that poster, but rather a combination of suggested doubts, silence, and this scaled back comment: "If it was indeed an Orthodox vespers service (which I doubt), then if no-one lodges a formal complaint, then nothing will be done."  That's not "being fair and thoughtful and circumspect about judging a Bishop", that's trying to put the most positive spin possible on something that evidently requires spin because it's not normative practice.  I don't ascribe malicious intent to that person or anyone else, but these are just not good arguments, and I don't have to be in full ecclesiastical communion with anyone in this thread in order to recognise that.   

Quote
To people just starting out, like lovesupreme, who early on came onto this thread and expressed uncertainty and that he was disturbed by this thread, or any other number of people who might look in and feel confused by the hysteria of it all and zinging all the hot words around, 'heretics!' 'ecumenists' etc.  

That could easily be said about any number of threads here.  That's a larger issue and better addressed elsewhere and in other ways than in this thread. 

All I will say is that these things can be confusing and can arouse strong feelings, which is why we should all try to discuss it in a calm, reasonable manner.  I don't like to toot my own horn, but I do believe I've tried my best to do just that.  But the "hysteria" is not just coming from one side: if the "Old Calendarists" are hysterical, I think at least some of the "canonical EO" have shown themselves to be equally so.  None of that is helpful. 

Quote
I'm not sure why everyone thinks I'm an Old Calendarist Zealot, it's really odd...

Not sure who ‘everyone’ is, but I don't think you are, as far as I know, but then I don't know much about you.  ;)


Count your blessings.  ;)

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #215 on: February 01, 2014, 06:35:59 PM »
Look carefully at this picture from the Ecumenical Vespers Service:



Notice where the booklet is opened? This indicates that Vespers has obviously not ended, yet here she is reading and praying from that booklet and standing on the Solea in front of a mic.

Look at her body language ... she is praying attentively and reading from that booklet while holding it tightly.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 06:37:16 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,574
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #216 on: February 01, 2014, 06:49:26 PM »
Look carefully at this picture from the Ecumenical Vespers Service:

Notice where the booklet is opened? This indicates that Vespers has obviously not ended, yet here she is reading and praying from that booklet and standing on the Solea in front of a mic.

Look at her body language ... she is praying attentively and reading from that booklet while holding it tightly.

Thanks for telling us the obvious except that vain repetitions are not necessary.   :o

Offline Gorazd

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,160
  • Faith: 7 Councils
  • Jurisdiction: First without Equals
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #217 on: February 01, 2014, 06:57:06 PM »
Notice where the booklet is opened? This indicates that Vespers has obviously not ended, yet here she is reading and praying from that booklet and standing on the Solea in front of a mic.

Look at her body language ... she is praying attentively and reading from that booklet while holding it tightly.

Seems towards the end of the booklet. Probably the booklet included both the actual service and words of greetings or whatever (God forbid, it might even have been a Psalm) afterwards to be said by the non-Orthodox.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #218 on: February 01, 2014, 06:59:32 PM »

Smoke and mirrors. I see a vested RC bishop speaking from the ambo while the bishop is throned. And the event is billed as "ecumenical vespers". That's enough for me.

As I said earlier, the canons forbid ANY prayer with heretics. It doesn't matter whether the mutual prayer occurs inside or outside a particular service, or even where it occurs. What you are seeking is proof that the event is NOT what it plainly appears to be; YOU are the one grasping at straws.
No, Jonathan, you have rendered a verdict based solely on what you see in a few photos. Photos are too easily falsified and can be made to show things that the context in which they were taken would disprove if we knew it. Before we render our own verdict, we need proof from more than just photos that the event IS what the photos make it appear to be.

Seriously?! Have you actually looked at the entire album? Or read the announcement on the Belgian Archdiocese's webpage, where it clearly states the non-Orthodox attendees "assisted" in the service? Are you seriously suggesting the Archdiocese went to such lengths to make itself look ecumenist when it was actually being Orthodox?

The allegation of doctoring the photos might wash if we just had one or two photos and only a second-hand report from a hostile source. This stuff, however, is straight from the horse's mouth.

It is interesting how all these photos of the Ecumenical Vespers Service have been taken by a person who has been able to get excellent close up shots and who is obviously enamored with ecumenism. He obviously had permission to take all these photos. Note that his photo album does not have any anti-ecumenicist rhetoric, so for anyone to jump to conclusions that the photos have been photo-shopped is ludicrous and absolutely hysterical.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #219 on: February 01, 2014, 07:00:31 PM »
Notice where the booklet is opened? This indicates that Vespers has obviously not ended, yet here she is reading and praying from that booklet and standing on the Solea in front of a mic.

Look at her body language ... she is praying attentively and reading from that booklet while holding it tightly.

Seems towards the end of the booklet. Probably the booklet included both the actual service and words of greetings or whatever (God forbid, it might even have been a Psalm) afterwards to be said by the non-Orthodox.

Oh, come on, GET REAL. Look at the rest of the pictures.
There you will see the deacon censing, and he has about the same pages left in his booklet.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:01:31 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #220 on: February 01, 2014, 07:03:37 PM »
Look carefully at this picture from the Ecumenical Vespers Service:



Notice where the booklet is opened? This indicates that Vespers has obviously not ended, yet here she is reading and praying from that booklet and standing on the Solea in front of a mic.
1. If you weren't interpreting the photo for us, I would have no idea what that booklet even is, for the photo doesn't zoom in enough to show clearly the text on the book's cover. It's you who's telling us that the book is a service book. Are we just to take that on your authority?
2. Not knowing what that booklet is, and not assuming that it's a service book as you say it is, there's no way of knowing whether she's in the middle of the prayers or merely reading something from a booklet before or after the service.
3. The photo is focused so much on the woman that it's hard for me to see where she is in the church. The photo needs to show a more panoramic shot of the church for me to see context.
4. The only thing that's clearly correct in your points above is that she's standing in front of a mic.

Look at her body language ... she is praying attentively and reading from that booklet while holding it tightly.
You like to read a lot into one's body language, Maria. The only thing I can see in her body language is that she's holding a booklet and reading it, probably aloud and into the mic. Anything beyond that is your own personal interpretation, which you seem to enjoy putting forth as evidence of the worst possible scenario.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,587
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #221 on: February 01, 2014, 07:06:28 PM »
Quote
excellent close up shots

Modern non-SLR digital cameras, can have impressive zoom capacities. It is not at all difficult to take "excellent closeup shots" like those from the back of a church, all without the need for a bazooka lens.

*back to our scheduled programming*
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #222 on: February 01, 2014, 07:08:15 PM »

Smoke and mirrors. I see a vested RC bishop speaking from the ambo while the bishop is throned. And the event is billed as "ecumenical vespers". That's enough for me.

As I said earlier, the canons forbid ANY prayer with heretics. It doesn't matter whether the mutual prayer occurs inside or outside a particular service, or even where it occurs. What you are seeking is proof that the event is NOT what it plainly appears to be; YOU are the one grasping at straws.
No, Jonathan, you have rendered a verdict based solely on what you see in a few photos. Photos are too easily falsified and can be made to show things that the context in which they were taken would disprove if we knew it. Before we render our own verdict, we need proof from more than just photos that the event IS what the photos make it appear to be.

Seriously?! Have you actually looked at the entire album? Or read the announcement on the Belgian Archdiocese's webpage, where it clearly states the non-Orthodox attendees "assisted" in the service? Are you seriously suggesting the Archdiocese went to such lengths to make itself look ecumenist when it was actually being Orthodox?

The allegation of doctoring the photos might wash if we just had one or two photos and only a second-hand report from a hostile source. This stuff, however, is straight from the horse's mouth.

It is interesting how all these photos of the Ecumenical Vespers Service have been taken by a person who has been able to get excellent close up shots and who is obviously enamored with ecumenism. He obviously had permission to take all these photos. Note that his photo album does not have any anti-ecumenicist rhetoric, so for anyone to jump to conclusions that the photos have been photo-shopped is ludicrous and absolutely hysterical.
I'm not aware that anyone has drawn any conclusion that those photos have been Photoshopped, Maria, and you presume a lot to assume that the photographer is "obviously enamored with ecumenism" just because he took a lot of photos at this event.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:09:58 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #223 on: February 01, 2014, 07:11:09 PM »
Look carefully at this picture from the Ecumenical Vespers Service:



Notice where the booklet is opened? This indicates that Vespers has obviously not ended, yet here she is reading and praying from that booklet and standing on the Solea in front of a mic.
1. If you weren't interpreting the photo for us, I would have no idea what that booklet even is, for the photo doesn't zoom in enough to show clearly the text on the book's cover. It's you who's telling us that the book is a service book. Are we just to take that on your authority?
2. Not knowing what that booklet is, and not assuming that it's a service book as you say it is, there's no way of knowing whether she's in the middle of the prayers or merely reading something from a booklet before or after the service.
3. The photo is focused so much on the woman that it's hard for me to see where she is in the church. The photo needs to show a more panoramic shot of the church for me to see context.
4. The only thing that's clearly correct in your points above is that she's standing in front of a mic.

Look at her body language ... she is praying attentively and reading from that booklet while holding it tightly.
You like to read a lot into one's body language, Maria. The only thing I can see in her body language is that she's holding a booklet and reading it, probably aloud and into the mic. Anything beyond that is your own personal interpretation, which you seem to enjoy putting forth as evidence of the worst possible scenario.

Worst possible scenario?

What horrible descriptions did I make?

I studied verbal and non-verbal communications, communication disorders, sociolinguistics, psycholinguistics, body language, head movements, and hand gestures extensively while I was an undergraduate and graduate student as part of my M.A. degree in Linguistics.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #224 on: February 01, 2014, 07:17:44 PM »
Look carefully at this picture from the Ecumenical Vespers Service:



Notice where the booklet is opened? This indicates that Vespers has obviously not ended, yet here she is reading and praying from that booklet and standing on the Solea in front of a mic.
1. If you weren't interpreting the photo for us, I would have no idea what that booklet even is, for the photo doesn't zoom in enough to show clearly the text on the book's cover. It's you who's telling us that the book is a service book. Are we just to take that on your authority?
2. Not knowing what that booklet is, and not assuming that it's a service book as you say it is, there's no way of knowing whether she's in the middle of the prayers or merely reading something from a booklet before or after the service.
3. The photo is focused so much on the woman that it's hard for me to see where she is in the church. The photo needs to show a more panoramic shot of the church for me to see context.
4. The only thing that's clearly correct in your points above is that she's standing in front of a mic.

Look at her body language ... she is praying attentively and reading from that booklet while holding it tightly.
You like to read a lot into one's body language, Maria. The only thing I can see in her body language is that she's holding a booklet and reading it, probably aloud and into the mic. Anything beyond that is your own personal interpretation, which you seem to enjoy putting forth as evidence of the worst possible scenario.

Worst possible scenario?
What else do you want us to believe? It seems pretty clear to me that you're trying to make a case that this event was a heretical prayer service. Am I wrong? If so, how?

What horrible descriptions did I make?
What convincing descriptions have you made? I have yet to see any.

I studied verbal and non-verbal communications, communication disorders, sociolinguistics, psycholinguistics, body language, head movements, and hand gestures extensively while I was an undergraduate and graduate student as part of my M.A. degree in Linguistics.
Your credentials, which I notice you throwing around a lot lately, mean nothing if you misuse them.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:19:06 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.