Author Topic: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014  (Read 8550 times)

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Offline Maria

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https://picasaweb.google.com/103992193156016737396/EcumenicalVespersInTheArchangelsOrthodoxCathedralInBrusselJanuary232014#

Quote
Ecumenical Vespers in the Archangels Orthodox Cathedral in Brussel - January 23, 2014 - presided by His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras of Belgium (Ecumenical Patriarchate), with the participation of Archbishop Simon, Bishop Maximos of Evmenia, and in the presence of representatives of the Roman-Catholic, Protestant, Anglican and Armenian Churches.

Here are some pictures of the Ecumenical Vespers Service:

Two photos of a Cardinal standing at the Holy Altar and giving a homily at this service:





A female minister participating at the Ecumenical Vespers service:



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Offline Maria

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Another photo showing His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras listening to the homily from his throne:

« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 03:56:25 PM by Maria »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Kick them out into the street.  ::)

The canons of both churches prohibit 'inter-denominatonal' praying.
Not everything I type or have typed in the past is reflective of the teaching of the Orthodox Church, or may not reflect my contemporary views on a subject. (4/6/2015)

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Offline LBK

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Quote
Two photos of a Cardinal standing at the Holy Altar and giving a homily at this service:

Anyone can see he is standing on the solea, which is in the nave. He's clearly NOT in the altar, or at the Holy Table.

Maria, there is no need to add your own distortions to what happened there.  >:(
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 06:12:17 PM by LBK »
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Offline augustin717

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Quote
Two photos of a Cardinal standing at the Holy Altar and giving a homily at this service:

Anyone can see he is standing on the solea, which is in the nave. He's clearly NOT in the altar, or at the Holy Table.

Maria, there is no need to add your own distortions to what happened there.
if ocnetters had more real life influence, even this would be unthinkable.

Offline Maria

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Quote
Two photos of a Cardinal standing at the Holy Altar and giving a homily at this service:

Anyone can see he is standing on the solea, which is in the nave. He's clearly NOT in the altar, or at the Holy Table.

Maria, there is no need to add your own distortions to what happened there.  >:(

Well, excuse me, but the Greek Orthodox Priest said that the top of the stairs was considered part of the Holy Altar, and that neither laity nor heterodox were supposed to ascend that part. Have you ever seen Altar Boys go up those steps? No.
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Offline LBK

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Quote
Two photos of a Cardinal standing at the Holy Altar and giving a homily at this service:

Anyone can see he is standing on the solea, which is in the nave. He's clearly NOT in the altar, or at the Holy Table.

Maria, there is no need to add your own distortions to what happened there.  >:(

Well, excuse me, but the Greek Orthodox Priest said that the top of the stairs was considered part of the Holy Altar, and that neither laity nor heterodox were supposed to ascend that part. Have you ever seen Altar Boys go up those steps? No.

Maria, the iconostasis separates the nave from the altar area. The area the cardinal is standing on is called the ambon.

Please, stop embarrassing yourself.
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Offline Maria

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Quote
Two photos of a Cardinal standing at the Holy Altar and giving a homily at this service:

Anyone can see he is standing on the solea, which is in the nave. He's clearly NOT in the altar, or at the Holy Table.

Maria, there is no need to add your own distortions to what happened there.  >:(

Well, excuse me, but the Greek Orthodox Priest said that the top of the stairs was considered part of the Holy Altar, and that neither laity nor heterodox were supposed to ascend that part. Have you ever seen Altar Boys go up those steps? No.

Maria, the iconostasis separates the nave from the altar area. The area the cardinal is standing on is called the ambon.


Thanks for reminding me about the ambon. Only the priest is supposed to stand on the ambon, especially when he says the prayers on the ambon at the end of the Divine Liturgy.

When a Catholic layman who was looking into Orthodoxy walked on the solea and stood on the ambon to get a better look at Holy Altar, the Greek Orthodox Priest told him to step down, that only Orthodox Priests could stand there at the Holy Altar. Furthermore, the priest explained that only the faithful who were coming to receive Holy Communion could step on the solea, but not on the steps leading up to the Holy Altar.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 06:35:02 PM by Maria »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Quote
Two photos of a Cardinal standing at the Holy Altar and giving a homily at this service:

Anyone can see he is standing on the solea, which is in the nave. He's clearly NOT in the altar, or at the Holy Table.

Maria, there is no need to add your own distortions to what happened there.  >:(

Well, excuse me, but the Greek Orthodox Priest said that the top of the stairs was considered part of the Holy Altar, and that neither laity nor heterodox were supposed to ascend that part. Have you ever seen Altar Boys go up those steps? No.

Maria, the iconostasis separates the nave from the altar area. The area the cardinal is standing on is called the ambon.

LBK,

To be fair to Maria, there is a difference between preaching from "the floor" and preaching from the ambon, at least based on EO praxis I've observed throughout the years: preaching from the ambon is reserved to EO clergy.  We have the same practice in our Church.  So it's a little strange to see a Bishop of the Roman Church vested and preaching from a place where an Orthodox subdeacon could not preach.      

EDIT: he doesn't appear to be a Cardinal...
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 06:39:31 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline augustin717

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Two photos of a Cardinal standing at the Holy Altar and giving a homily at this service:

Anyone can see he is standing on the solea, which is in the nave. He's clearly NOT in the altar, or at the Holy Table.

Maria, there is no need to add your own distortions to what happened there.  >:(

Well, excuse me, but the Greek Orthodox Priest said that the top of the stairs was considered part of the Holy Altar, and that neither laity nor heterodox were supposed to ascend that part. Have you ever seen Altar Boys go up those steps? No.

Maria, the iconostasis separates the nave from the altar area. The area the cardinal is standing on is called the ambon.

LBK,

To be fair to Maria, there is a difference between preaching from "the floor" and preaching from the ambon, at least based on EO praxis I've observed throughout the years: preaching from the ambon is reserved to EO clergy.  We have the same practice in our Church.  So it's a little strange to see a Cardinal of the Roman Church vested and preaching from a place where an Orthodox subdeacon could not preach.     
A cardinal of the Roman church is a bishop, a subdeacon is not. Maybe that's all it is.

Offline LBK

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2014, 06:42:00 PM »
Quote
Two photos of a Cardinal standing at the Holy Altar and giving a homily at this service:

Anyone can see he is standing on the solea, which is in the nave. He's clearly NOT in the altar, or at the Holy Table.

Maria, there is no need to add your own distortions to what happened there.  >:(

Well, excuse me, but the Greek Orthodox Priest said that the top of the stairs was considered part of the Holy Altar, and that neither laity nor heterodox were supposed to ascend that part. Have you ever seen Altar Boys go up those steps? No.

Maria, the iconostasis separates the nave from the altar area. The area the cardinal is standing on is called the ambon.

LBK,

To be fair to Maria, there is a difference between preaching from "the floor" and preaching from the ambon, at least based on EO praxis I've observed throughout the years: preaching from the ambon is reserved to EO clergy.  We have the same practice in our Church.  So it's a little strange to see a Bishop of the Roman Church vested and preaching from a place where an Orthodox subdeacon could not preach.      

EDIT: he doesn't appear to be a Cardinal...

I took issue with Maria's comment of the cardinal "standing at the altar". A non-Orthodox clergyman there is indeed a gross violation, and is justifiably prohibited. However, this is clearly not what the RC cleric was doing.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2014, 06:43:49 PM »
A cardinal of the Roman church is a bishop, a subdeacon is not. Maybe that's all it is.

Sure, he's a bishop, but not of the Orthodox Church.  But if you're right about the intent, I wish they'd just come out and say "We recognise Roman Catholic orders as equivalent in every way to Orthodox orders" rather than trying to have it both ways as deemed convenient.  
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Offline Maria

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2014, 06:51:00 PM »
Quote
Two photos of a Cardinal standing at the Holy Altar and giving a homily at this service:

Anyone can see he is standing on the solea, which is in the nave. He's clearly NOT in the altar, or at the Holy Table.

Maria, there is no need to add your own distortions to what happened there.  >:(

Well, excuse me, but the Greek Orthodox Priest said that the top of the stairs was considered part of the Holy Altar, and that neither laity nor heterodox were supposed to ascend that part. Have you ever seen Altar Boys go up those steps? No.

Maria, the iconostasis separates the nave from the altar area. The area the cardinal is standing on is called the ambon.

LBK,

To be fair to Maria, there is a difference between preaching from "the floor" and preaching from the ambon, at least based on EO praxis I've observed throughout the years: preaching from the ambon is reserved to EO clergy.  We have the same practice in our Church.  So it's a little strange to see a Bishop of the Roman Church vested and preaching from a place where an Orthodox subdeacon could not preach.      

EDIT: he doesn't appear to be a Cardinal...

I was not sure if he were an Anglican prelate or a Roman Catholic Cardinal. Nevertheless, he sports a red "beanie" or skull cap.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 06:51:37 PM by Maria »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2014, 06:54:12 PM »
I took issue with Maria's comment of the cardinal "standing at the altar". A non-Orthodox clergyman there is indeed a gross violation, and is justifiably prohibited. However, this is clearly not what the RC cleric was doing.

It's a distinction without a difference, IMO.  It's outside the iconostasis, but subject to similar restrictions as the area behind the iconostasis (arguably, it's even more restricted). 

Interestingly, a Protestant minister who spoke at this event did not stand and speak from the ambon, but from the floor:



I doubt the non-Orthodox clergy are themselves picking where they want to speak, probably members of the host church are placing mics when and where needed. 
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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2014, 07:12:16 PM »
Let's make this thread even better. More pictures of other events that the person uploaded:


Quote
Ecumenical Worship in the Anglican Church in Knokke - January 24, 2014 - with the participation of His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras of Belgium and Oikonomos Bernard Peckstadt


Quote
Ecumenical Worship in the Luxemburg Orthodox Cathedral - January 19th, 2014 - copresided by His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras of Belgium, His Excellency Archbishop Hollerich (catholic) and representatives of the Protestant and Anglican Churches.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2014, 07:19:36 PM »
That's a really nice green chasuble Her Reverence is wearing.  I can't say the same for the stole of the priest all the way to the left in the first photo. 
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Offline mike

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2014, 08:39:42 PM »
but the Greek Orthodox Priest said that the top of the stairs was considered part of the Holy Altar, and that neither laity nor heterodox were supposed to ascend that part. Have you ever seen Altar Boys go up those steps? No.

I see. And I did. And never heard of those strange things you write here.

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2014, 08:39:42 PM »
I was not sure if he were an Anglican prelate or a Roman Catholic Cardinal. Nevertheless, he sports a red "beanie" or skull cap.

What would an Anglican bishop be doing in Belgium?

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2014, 08:39:42 PM »
https://www.facebook.com/athenagoras

Here you can complain to the bishop in question.

Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2014, 11:04:46 PM »
These forums must be rubbing off of me. Some of these photos made me slightly uneasy.

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2014, 11:12:12 PM »
What would be most useful is to find a sound recording (or video with sound) to find out just what was being read/chanted/sung at this gathering. Despite the caption on the Flickr site, the gathering might not have been a vespers service at all.

If it was, then swift and decisive action should, and must, be taken, against the errant bishop and who authorized and participated in it.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2014, 11:14:13 PM »
These forums must be rubbing off of me. Some of these photos made me slightly uneasy.

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.
Not everything I type or have typed in the past is reflective of the teaching of the Orthodox Church, or may not reflect my contemporary views on a subject. (4/6/2015)

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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2014, 11:18:15 PM »
These forums must be rubbing off of me. Some of these photos made me slightly uneasy.

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.

I don't think I would object to pictures of an Anglican or Catholic service. And I definitely wouldn't object to pictures of an Orthodox service. But when you cross the streams... nothing feels right anymore!

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2014, 11:19:00 PM »
Guys, calm down, there was no common eucharist or whatever, just some speeches and prayers.

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2014, 11:20:15 PM »
What would be most useful is to find a sound recording (or video with sound) to find out just what was being read/chanted/sung at this gathering. Despite the caption on the Flickr site, the gathering might not have been a vespers service at all.

If it was, then swift and decisive action should, and must, be taken, against the errant bishop and who authorized and participated in it.

There were two EP bishops (one a metropolitan) and a MP archbishop. I doubt anything'll happen to them.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 11:21:58 PM by Nephi »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2014, 11:22:31 PM »
Guys, calm down, there was no common eucharist or whatever, just some speeches and prayers.

LOL.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2014, 11:23:00 PM »
What would be most useful is to find a sound recording (or video with sound) to find out just what was being read/chanted/sung at this gathering. Despite the caption on the Flickr site, the gathering might not have been a vespers service at all.

If it was, then swift and decisive action should, and must, be taken, against the errant bishop and who authorized and participated in it.

There were two EP bishops and a MP archbishop. I doubt anything'll happen to them.

Like I said: we don't know from the pictures just what this gathering was about. If it was indeed an Orthodox vespers service (which I doubt), then if no-one lodges a formal complaint, then nothing will be done.
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2014, 11:42:06 PM »
Does anyone know what Belgium requires from churches, synagogues, mosques that are recognized by the State?

From the US State Department report on religious freedom in Belgium (slightly dated, but hey, it's the US government)

'...The government accords "recognized" status to Catholicism, Protestantism (including evangelicals and Pentecostals), Judaism, Anglicanism (separately from other Protestant groups), Islam, and Orthodox (Greek and Russian) Christianity. Representative bodies for these religious groups receive subsidies from the federal, regional, and local governments. The government also supports the freedom to participate in secular organizations. These secular humanist groups serve as a seventh recognized philosophical community, and their organizing body, the Central Council of Non-Religious Philosophical Communities of Belgium, receives funds and benefits similar to those accorded other recognized religious groups.

In 2010 the federal government paid $126.9 million (105.8 million euro) to recognized religious groups. This sum included $17.4 million (14.5 million euro) to lay organizations and $4.9 million (4.1 million euro) to Islamic religious groups. For 2009, the federal budget outlays totaled $127.2 million (106 million euro). The government appropriated $127.7 million (106.4 million euro) in 2009. Subsidies to the Buddhist secretariat amounted to $259,200 (216,000 euro) in 2010 and to $199,000 (180,000 euro) in 2009.

According to the Ministry of Justice, the federal government made salary payments to 2,712 Catholic priests, 118 Protestant/Evangelical and 12 Anglican ministers, 33 rabbis, 48 Orthodox priests, 285 lay consultants, and 23 Muslim imams, including clerical staff of the Muslim Executive. According to the Inter-University Center for Permanent Education research institute, total outlays by all levels of government, excluding religious education, amounted to $312 million (240.1 million euro) in 2008. With pensions and tax waivers included, the total subsidy amounted to $384.7 million (320.6 million euro). The government awarded 85 percent of all budget outlays for religion to the Catholic Church....'

The government apparently doesn't keep statistic on religious affiliation.  Catholics are estimated by more informal surveys to be 60%, non-believers 31%, etc. with 'other Christians' lumped together at around 3%.


http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148917.htm

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"Diplomacy in Action"  !!!

 :P
...
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 12:06:24 AM by Velsigne »

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2014, 11:49:25 PM »
These forums must be rubbing off of me. Some of these photos made me slightly uneasy.

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.

I don't think I would object to pictures of an Anglican or Catholic service. And I definitely wouldn't object to pictures of an Orthodox service. But when you cross the streams... nothing feels right anymore!

But then if you look at threads like this: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,56319.0.html

one can see that throwing up the most shocking pictures can be a person's way of expressing any number of things, like frustration, anger, militancy, whatever. 

I seriously doubt every Catholic parish has a clown Mass, but the traditionalists will throw it out there. 

Seems to be a Catholic polemic or way of thinking about things, 'I'm a traditionalist!'. 

Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy.  Sometimes things look bad, but the ship always rights itself.

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2014, 11:55:45 PM »
What would be most useful is to find a sound recording (or video with sound) to find out just what was being read/chanted/sung at this gathering. Despite the caption on the Flickr site, the gathering might not have been a vespers service at all.

If it was, then swift and decisive action should, and must, be taken, against the errant bishop and who authorized and participated in it.

Yes, but if the government then lists them as a sect, it might be a downward spiral for Orthodox presence in Belgium. 

I agree, it looks strange though, and maybe participation with the State isn't worth it.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2014, 02:04:09 AM »
Not very non-official religion is considered a sect. They are free to organise as associations. But what would be the point of that? You wouldn't get priests' salaries paid by the government then, near have the opportunity to teach a religion course at state school.

And btw, holding ecumenical prayer meetings is not a condition for being an official religion in Belgium. So there was no complusion involved. And Metropolitan Athinagoras is both a theologian and a lawyer (!), he also was a vicar bishop for 10 years before becoming a metropolitan. I am sure that he knew what he was doing and that there is nothing wrong with it.

As Orthodox Christians, we reject heresies. But that's not something we do because those are evil, impure people and we are the greatest, best and most pious. (We are not pharisees!)
We reject heresies because they obscure our way to theosis. However, that must never prevent us from dealing with non-Orthodox people in love!

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2014, 02:38:36 AM »
Not very non-official religion is considered a sect. They are free to organise as associations. But what would be the point of that? You wouldn't get priests' salaries paid by the government then, near have the opportunity to teach a religion course at state school.

And btw, holding ecumenical prayer meetings is not a condition for being an official religion in Belgium. So there was no complusion involved. And Metropolitan Athinagoras is both a theologian and a lawyer (!), he also was a vicar bishop for 10 years before becoming a metropolitan. I am sure that he knew what he was doing and that there is nothing wrong with it.

As Orthodox Christians, we reject heresies. But that's not something we do because those are evil, impure people and we are the greatest, best and most pious. (We are not pharisees!)
We reject heresies because they obscure our way to theosis. However, that must never prevent us from dealing with non-Orthodox people in love!


Thank you for clarifying. 

Offline mike

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2014, 08:34:41 AM »
Like I said: we don't know from the pictures just what this gathering was about. If it was indeed an Orthodox vespers service (which I doubt), then if no-one lodges a formal complaint, then nothing will be done.

Week of Prayers of Christian Unity. It is traditional to have such joint services and allow ministers from other confessions to preach. It happens whether you like it or not.

Yes, but if the government then lists them as a sect, it might be a downward spiral for Orthodox presence in Belgium. 

I agree, it looks strange though, and maybe participation with the State isn't worth it.

I'm not seeing logical sequence between the pictures and what you wrote.

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2014, 09:42:38 AM »
Like I said: we don't know from the pictures just what this gathering was about. If it was indeed an Orthodox vespers service (which I doubt), then if no-one lodges a formal complaint, then nothing will be done.

Week of Prayers of Christian Unity. It is traditional to have such joint services and allow ministers from other confessions to preach. It happens whether you like it or not.

Yes, but if the government then lists them as a sect, it might be a downward spiral for Orthodox presence in Belgium. 

I agree, it looks strange though, and maybe participation with the State isn't worth it.

I'm not seeing logical sequence between the pictures and what you wrote.

It wasn't comments from the pictures so much as trying to understand what they are doing in the pictures, and how the State addresses religion (why are they doing what they are doing in the pictures).  If members of a religion were doing things contrary to what they should be doing because the State provides for 48 priests, then maybe its better to not be involved.

If they aren't doing anything out of bounds, then it's a bonus to be recognized by the State.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2014, 09:58:59 AM »
Just so we're all clear, ANY prayer between Orthodox and heterodox is forbidden by the canons, and clerics who do so are liable for deposition. It doesn't matter whether the heterodox cleric was standing inside or outside the altar.

And of course nothing will be done about it. Nothing is ever done about it. The only option is for the Orthodox to sever communion with such heretics.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2014, 10:12:39 AM »
Just so we're all clear, ANY prayer between Orthodox and heterodox is forbidden by the canons, and clerics who do so are liable for deposition. It doesn't matter whether the heterodox cleric was standing inside or outside the altar.

And of course nothing will be done about it. Nothing is ever done about it. The only option is for the Orthodox to sever communion with such heretics.

It's in Catholic canons also, so...

Quote from: Catholic Code of Canon Law, 1917
1258. Haud licitum est fidelibus quovis modo active assistere seu partem habere in sacris acatholicorum.
 §2. Tolerari potest praesentia passiva seu mere materialis, civilis officii vel honoris causa, ob gravem rationem ab Episcopo in casu dubii probandam, in acatholicorum funeribus, nuptiis similibusque sollemniis, dummodo perversionis et scandali periculum absit.

1258. It is not lawful for the faithful to assist in any way actively, or to take part in the sacred rites of non-Catholics.
  § 2. A passive or merely material presence can be tolerated, of civil office or for honor's sake, for a grave reason by the Bishop in case of doubt, prepared in a non-Catholic funerals, the solemnities of the marriage and such-like, so long as the danger of the perversion and scandal far from it.

It's Google translated, so it may not be totally accurate. I corrected some of the grammar also.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 10:16:01 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2014, 10:20:38 AM »
Just so we're all clear, ANY prayer between Orthodox and heterodox is forbidden by the canons, and clerics who do so are liable for deposition. It doesn't matter whether the heterodox cleric was standing inside or outside the altar.

And of course nothing will be done about it. Nothing is ever done about it. The only option is for the Orthodox to sever communion with such heretics.

It's in Catholic canons also, so...

Quote from: Catholic Code of Canon Law, 1917
1258. Haud licitum est fidelibus quovis modo active assistere seu partem habere in sacris acatholicorum.
 §2. Tolerari potest praesentia passiva seu mere materialis, civilis officii vel honoris causa, ob gravem rationem ab Episcopo in casu dubii probandam, in acatholicorum funeribus, nuptiis similibusque sollemniis, dummodo perversionis et scandali periculum absit.

1258. It is not lawful for the faithful to assist in any way actively, or to take part in the sacred rites of non-Catholics.
  § 2. A passive or merely material presence can be tolerated, of civil office or for honor's sake, for a grave reason by the Bishop in case of doubt, prepared in a non-Catholic funerals, the solemnities of the marriage and such-like, so long as the danger of the perversion and scandal far from it.

It's Google translated, so it may not be totally accurate. I corrected some of the grammar also.

Good thing I know Latin. The first clause is correctly translated; the second one is better translated like this:

Quote
A passive or merely material presence can be tolerated, for the sake of civil office or honor, for a grave reason to be determined by the Bishop in case of doubt, in non-Catholic funerals, marriage and similar solemnities, so long as the danger of perversion and scandal is absent.

Offline monkvasyl

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2014, 10:33:16 AM »
What would be most useful is to find a sound recording (or video with sound) to find out just what was being read/chanted/sung at this gathering. Despite the caption on the Flickr site, the gathering might not have been a vespers service at all.

If it was, then swift and decisive action should, and must, be taken, against the errant bishop and who authorized and participated in it.

There were two EP bishops and a MP archbishop. I doubt anything'll happen to them.

Like I said: we don't know from the pictures just what this gathering was about. If it was indeed an Orthodox vespers service (which I doubt), then if no-one lodges a formal complaint, then nothing will be done.

Before converting to Orthodoxy, I attended several of these services.  They were simply a generic prayer service and not a vespers service.  Generally, the one who preached was from a different denomination. 
The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2014, 10:43:50 AM »
Like I said: we don't know from the pictures just what this gathering was about. If it was indeed an Orthodox vespers service (which I doubt), then if no-one lodges a formal complaint, then nothing will be done.

What makes you doubt it's Vespers?  The photos depict appropriately vested ministers, an entrance (as at Vespers), and the blessing of loaves.  And even if English is not the primary language of Belgium, there's nothing to suggest that their English is so bad they had no idea what to call this service: other events are labelled "ecumenical worship", but this is specifically called Vespers. 
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Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2014, 10:59:32 AM »
Like I said: we don't know from the pictures just what this gathering was about. If it was indeed an Orthodox vespers service (which I doubt), then if no-one lodges a formal complaint, then nothing will be done.

What makes you doubt it's Vespers?  The photos depict appropriately vested ministers, an entrance (as at Vespers), and the blessing of loaves.  And even if English is not the primary language of Belgium, there's nothing to suggest that their English is so bad they had no idea what to call this service: other events are labelled "ecumenical worship", but this is specifically called Vespers. 

Whether or not it's called Vespers or Matins or Service of Kumbaya, we still have Orthodox priests and bishops praying with heretics.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2014, 11:36:19 AM »
As for Orthodox Christians joining in prayer with heretics, I understand that "heretics", at the time this canon was made, referred to non-trinitarians. Using it against prayer with Roman Catholics is at best a decontaxtualisation.

As for Roman Catholic canons, the CIC of 1917 has been replaced by the one from 1983.

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2014, 11:47:17 AM »
As for Orthodox Christians joining in prayer with heretics, I understand that "heretics", at the time this canon was made, referred to non-trinitarians. Using it against prayer with Roman Catholics is at best a decontaxtualisation.

As for Roman Catholic canons, the CIC of 1917 has been replaced by the one from 1983.

You understand wrong. Heresy means holding to any false doctrine.

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2014, 12:52:10 PM »
If members of a religion were doing things contrary to what they should be doing because the State provides for 48 priests, then maybe its better to not be involved.

If they aren't doing anything out of bounds, then it's a bonus to be recognized by the State.

And how did you come to that?

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Re: Ecumenical Vespers: Archangel Orthodox Cathedral, Brussels, Jan. 23, 2014
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2014, 12:52:10 PM »
Quote
Two photos of a Cardinal standing at the Holy Altar and giving a homily at this service:

Anyone can see he is standing on the solea, which is in the nave. He's clearly NOT in the altar, or at the Holy Table.

Maria, there is no need to add your own distortions to what happened there.  >:(

Well, excuse me, but the Greek Orthodox Priest said that the top of the stairs was considered part of the Holy Altar, and that neither laity nor heterodox were supposed to ascend that part. Have you ever seen Altar Boys go up those steps? No.

Maria, the iconostasis separates the nave from the altar area. The area the cardinal is standing on is called the ambon.

LBK,

To be fair to Maria, there is a difference between preaching from "the floor" and preaching from the ambon, at least based on EO praxis I've observed throughout the years: preaching from the ambon is reserved to EO clergy.  We have the same practice in our Church.  So it's a little strange to see a Cardinal of the Roman Church vested and preaching from a place where an Orthodox subdeacon could not preach.     
A cardinal of the Roman church is a bishop, a subdeacon is not. Maybe that's all it is.

Not always.  A cardinal may be an archbishop, bishop, priest or archdeacon.
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