Author Topic: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches  (Read 14821 times)

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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2012, 01:50:17 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Thank you.

I see it is just this term "ordained" which is being thrown around a bit to freely in the community and literature then which adds to the confusion.  Again, in the Ethiopian tradition our lesser orders or not "ordained" but are indeed set aside, but ordination is reserved solely for the clergies, be they Deacons, Priests, or Bishops, and all ordained clergy are given the due respect and reverence, hence why this confusion is important.  I wouldn't want to over-revere a non-ordained yet special laity, and further I wouldn't want to disrespect an ordained and rightfully reverend clergy :)

stay blessed,
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2012, 02:03:12 PM »
i've got nothing against that...

Offline Hiwot

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2012, 02:25:00 PM »
Johnatan thank you for that post, I really enjoyed reading this thread.
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Offline witega

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2012, 04:29:03 PM »
Nuns stay in the convent and are devoted to prayer, while deaconesses (and consecrated servants), live in the world, usually communally, and serve socially (more like post-vatican II RC nuns). This is a recent development. The order of deaconess had fallen into disuse and was revived.

Approximately when did this revival occur? Curious because when the subject of reviving 'deaconesses' comes up in EO circles, one of the points that regularly gets brought up is that St. Nectarios of Aegina ordained several deaconesses at the monastery he was spiritual father too. This was in 1911 or so. And as we have recently been informed, St. Nectarios was on very good terms with the Coptic Chuch while he was Metropolitan of Pentapolis.
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Offline countertenor

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2012, 10:04:36 PM »
The order of deaconesses (ordained) exists in Syriac Orthodox Church. We have TKSO (Liturgy) for it. But it is no longer practiced even in Malankara.

My son's godmother is Malankara Orthodox, and while she was living somewhere with only a Syriac Orthodox parish, she was ordained a deaconess, by the Syriac Bishop, with the permission of the Malankara bishop, who said to keep it quiet, because the bishops were still trying to figure out how to reintroduce Deaconesses to the Malankara faithful in India.


Offline Jonathan

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2012, 10:15:53 PM »
Nuns stay in the convent and are devoted to prayer, while deaconesses (and consecrated servants), live in the world, usually communally, and serve socially (more like post-vatican II RC nuns). This is a recent development. The order of deaconess had fallen into disuse and was revived.

Approximately when did this revival occur? Curious because when the subject of reviving 'deaconesses' comes up in EO circles, one of the points that regularly gets brought up is that St. Nectarios of Aegina ordained several deaconesses at the monastery he was spiritual father too. This was in 1911 or so. And as we have recently been informed, St. Nectarios was on very good terms with the Coptic Chuch while he was Metropolitan of Pentapolis.

I believe much more recently than that.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/479/spec1.htm

"Such regulations are enshrined in the Code for Consecrated Deaconesses, which was drawn up in 1992 by the Holy Synod, headed by Pope Shenouda III"

"a doctor who became a consecrated deaconess in 1980,"

Found it, http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/coptic_1.shtml

"The early Church had women deacons but abandoned this in the 13th century. The Church resumed the ordination of women as deaconesses in 1981 and there are now at least 400 consecrated deaconesses in the Coptic church. Traditionally, a deaconess is either a virgin or a widow."

Offline witega

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2012, 10:54:10 PM »
"The early Church had women deacons but abandoned this in the 13th century. The Church resumed the ordination of women as deaconesses in 1981 and there are now at least 400 consecrated deaconesses in the Coptic church. Traditionally, a deaconess is either a virgin or a widow."

That certainly seems to preclude Coptic influence on St. Nectarios action, but it introduces a new question to me. 1981 (which is in living memory for a lot of us) and already up to 400+? That seems surprisingly fast, at least for any change among Orthoeox. Was there any particular impetus that anyone's aware not only for the Copts to revive the order but seemingly to do with such enthusiasm?
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Offline Jonathan

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2012, 11:02:32 PM »
400 doesn't seem that fast among 10 000 000. There are thousands of monks and nuns, some of whom do end up serving in the world even though that isn't their role, and probably more living ascetic lives in the world who are called to celibacy, but do not wish to leave the world. I would think there would be enough pressure from these two sides.

Offline dhinuus

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #53 on: December 25, 2014, 12:23:55 PM »




NULL

Offline Salpy

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #54 on: December 25, 2014, 12:54:55 PM »
What is it?  Can you link the source?

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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2016, 07:54:13 PM »
So, there's a Syriac parish in São Paulo where a deaconess seems to actually be the female counterpart of a deacon. Her name appears in every pamphlet of the parish aside the priest's, and, although I don't have videos to be sure, she seems to have liturgical functions* from the pictures. Since Thomas Daniel said they were only chantresses nowadays, I'm curious about how usual this is inside the SOC.

* I'm not 100% sure about what the expression "liturgical functions" implies (like, I imagine we could say acolytes have liturgical functions) so keep in mind that all my reference are pictures like the following and I'm not trying to imply anything





« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 07:55:18 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2016, 08:00:12 PM »
how big is that church that he needs a microphone?

Something about the flyer (and not the deaconess) rubs me very wrong..the wording is so -evangelical-
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2016, 08:10:51 PM »
Something about the flyer (and not the deaconess) rubs me very wrong..the wording is so -evangelical-
Agreed, some Orthodox here using this approach. I don't see anything particularly wrong with it, but it's weird.
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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2016, 09:48:17 PM »
So, there's a Syriac parish in São Paulo where a deaconess seems to actually be the female counterpart of a deacon. Her name appears in every pamphlet of the parish aside the priest's, and, although I don't have videos to be sure, she seems to have liturgical functions* from the pictures. Since Thomas Daniel said they were only chantresses nowadays, I'm curious about how usual this is inside the SOC.

The "vestments" look like a variation on what Syrian deaconesses ("chantresses") wear elsewhere, but I don't recognise the liturgical actions in either of the last two photos. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2016, 12:45:42 AM »
So, there's a Syriac parish in São Paulo where a deaconess seems to actually be the female counterpart of a deacon. Her name appears in every pamphlet of the parish aside the priest's, and, although I don't have videos to be sure, she seems to have liturgical functions* from the pictures. Since Thomas Daniel said they were only chantresses nowadays, I'm curious about how usual this is inside the SOC.

The "vestments" look like a variation on what Syrian deaconesses ("chantresses") wear elsewhere, but I don't recognise the liturgical actions in either of the last two photos.

Interesting also that in the advert she has her stole across the right shoulder, but across the left in the last picture. I seem to recall reading that Armenian deaconesses were vested like the men except for covered hair and wearing their stole on the opposite shoulder.
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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2016, 02:20:30 AM »
The "vestments" look like a variation on what Syrian deaconesses ("chantresses") wear elsewhere, but I don't recognise the liturgical actions in either of the last two photos. 

In the second one she looks like she carries something for the priest. A bottle with chrism maybe?

Not something untypical for altars serves to do. Maybe not carrying chrism but carrying stuff for priests in general.
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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2016, 03:27:43 AM »
Is this a canonical Syrian Orthodox community or a vagante one? Who is the bishop?
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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2016, 10:52:46 AM »
So, there's a Syriac parish in São Paulo where a deaconess seems to actually be the female counterpart of a deacon. Her name appears in every pamphlet of the parish aside the priest's, and, although I don't have videos to be sure, she seems to have liturgical functions* from the pictures. Since Thomas Daniel said they were only chantresses nowadays, I'm curious about how usual this is inside the SOC.

The "vestments" look like a variation on what Syrian deaconesses ("chantresses") wear elsewhere, but I don't recognise the liturgical actions in either of the last two photos.

Interesting also that in the advert she has her stole across the right shoulder, but across the left in the last picture. I seem to recall reading that Armenian deaconesses were vested like the men except for covered hair and wearing their stole on the opposite shoulder.

I don't think the vesture for deaconesses is consistent among the Syrians today.  In some places, it appears to be a white robe and a type of stole.  In others, it looks more like a choir robe and a scarf.  In still others, it looks like some bizarre Star Wars costume.  The variety makes me wonder if there ever was any consistency (I'm not sure what the practice was in India, I'll have to check).  In any case, since they are chanters, they would not be entitled to wear a stole in the first place. 

I've never noticed Armenian deaconesses wearing their stoles on the opposite shoulder.  The only difference I've observed was the use of the veil.   
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2016, 10:54:33 AM »
The "vestments" look like a variation on what Syrian deaconesses ("chantresses") wear elsewhere, but I don't recognise the liturgical actions in either of the last two photos. 

In the second one she looks like she carries something for the priest. A bottle with chrism maybe?

Not something untypical for altars serves to do. Maybe not carrying chrism but carrying stuff for priests in general.

It's possible, though chrism is not under any circumstance to be handled by non-priests.
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2016, 10:59:36 AM »
It's possible, though chrism is not under any circumstance to be handled by non-priests.

Is deacon a priest? Or is not? Is it chrism or something else?

So many quesions.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 11:00:47 AM by mike »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2016, 11:35:03 AM »
Is this a canonical Syrian Orthodox community or a vagante one? Who is the bishop?
Canonical. They have pictures with Mor Titos (Tuza), delegate for Mor José (Efrém), and are listed in the official website: https://igrejasirianortodoxa.com/paroquiascomunidades/sao-paulo/


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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2016, 11:42:44 AM »
It's possible, though chrism is not under any circumstance to be handled by non-priests.

Is deacon a priest? Or is not?

For our purposes here, suffice it to say that only qashishe and efisqufe may handle chrism, mshamshone may not, mshamshonyotho may not, etc. 

Quote
Is it chrism or something else?

In that photo, I can't say for sure.  It appeared to me to be a small prayer rope like the one she has around her wrist in other photos. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #68 on: August 26, 2016, 01:22:24 PM »
Quote
Canonical. They have pictures with Mor Titos (Tuza), delegate for Mor José (Efrém), and are listed in the official website: https://igrejasirianortodoxa.com/paroquiascomunidades/sao-paulo/ 

I am having aproblem opening up your link.  Are others having the same problem or is it just me?

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2016, 01:27:25 PM »
It works for me.
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2016, 01:44:43 PM »
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." (Psalm 90:1)

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2016, 01:46:30 PM »



I just noticed the times...

are evening DL's common?
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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2016, 01:59:16 PM »

I just noticed the times...

are evening DL's common?
Among Brazilian Syriacs, yes. Never seen it among other groups, let's see if our OO fellows know if they're common elsewhere. Maybe the SOC in this country will need more visits from foreign clergy to normalise their practices for good. They even used to have Latin rite (which I believe to have been changed to Antiochian in all parishes).
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 02:02:08 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2016, 02:15:05 PM »
are evening DL's common?

They're not uncommon.  In the Indian Church, for example, evening Liturgies may be celebrated

a) the night before certain feasts if a morning Liturgy would prevent more people from attending
b) by a priest who serves two parishes, so that each could have the Liturgy (e.g., one on Sunday morning, the other on Sunday-evening-which-is-technically-Monday)
c) in countries where Sunday is a working day (e.g., the Middle East)
d) in consultation with the bishop if pastoral needs require it (e.g., mission parishes), etc.

Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2016, 02:16:54 PM »
are evening DL's common?

They're not uncommon.  In the Indian Church, for example, evening Liturgies may be celebrated

a) the night before certain feasts if a morning Liturgy would prevent more people from attending
b) by a priest who serves two parishes, so that each could have the Liturgy (e.g., one on Sunday morning, the other on Sunday-evening-which-is-technically-Monday)
c) in countries where Sunday is a working day (e.g., the Middle East)
d) in consultation with the bishop if pastoral needs require it (e.g., mission parishes), etc.



cool....I was just curious, not scandalised... ;)

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #75 on: August 26, 2016, 02:28:36 PM »
I fear the case there is just Latin influence, they are the only Syriac parish in São Paulo.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Deaconess in Coptic and other oriental churches
« Reply #76 on: August 26, 2016, 02:52:38 PM »
There are two different groups in the Syriac Orthodox Church in Brazil:
1.  The immigrants and their families which are called the "traditional" group
2.  The mission group comprised of convert RC priests and their missions.

Converts:
Quote
"The return of missionary Antiochene mind even contradicted by some persons belonging to the churches of Cologne, led the Patriarch, a synodal decision to separate the archdiocese in Brazil in two branches: a "colony" or "traditional" under the direct administration the patriarch, and another missionary, under the episcopal administration Mor Chrysostomos Salama. Assim, a Igreja Sirian Ortodoxa de Antioquia no Brasil , por conta de sua índole missionária e de estar aberta à evangelização dos brasileiros, foi então intitulada de “Igreja de Missão” e, consequentemente, acrescido ao nome o termo Missionária . Thus, the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch in Brazil, because of its nature missionary and to be open to evangelization of Brazil, was then titled "Church Mission" and thus added to the name of the Missionary term. "

And problems:

Quote
"Identity and Enculturation
Because of the missionary perspective of the Holy See Syriac Antioch and because the "Mission Church" in Brazil have initially received some priests and faithful of the Roman Church and mainly because of enculturation, some Fathers of the Church (Missionary) Sirian Orthodox in Brazil ended (in some communities) allowing, in some contexts, the use of three-dimensional images of saints (statues), different icons traditionally used by the Orthodox Churches, clothing (vestments) Roman Catholic (Latin rite), mainly because these materials were not produced in Brazil and its import was very costly. Essa situação desenvolveu-se, principalmente porque, após o falecimento de Mor Crisóstomos Salama em 1996, a Igreja ficou por um período de 11 anos sem nenhuma delegacia patriarcal. This situation has developed, mainly because after the death of Mor Chrysostomos Salama in 1996, the Church was for a period of 11 years without any patriarchal station. ...Over a long period, "Missionary Church" in Brazil was monitored and observed, as noted in sequential order below for several patriarchal representatives, whose reports were, from time to time, sent to the Holy See of Antioch Syriac."
 

Google translate from the official Church web page:

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=pt-BR&u=https://igrejasirianortodoxa.com/igreja-no-brasil/historia-da-igreja-no-brasil/&usg=ALkJrhioy2AKqn5E-kAQ8Z9gGAcMDnneQQ