Christianity and Islam

[xOrthodox4Christx]

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.

Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

Also, Islam requires Judaism and Christianity to be false. It also requires a bipolar ('good vs evil) worldview. Buddhism isn't really based on this kind of stuff, kind of Existential.

[orthonorm]

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.

Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

Also, Islam requires Judaism and Christianity to be false. It also requires a bipolar ('good vs evil) worldview. Buddhism isn't really based on this kind of stuff, kind of Existential.

According to its Western shills, but no.

[Jetavan]

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?

Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.

The difference is that Judaism does not say it allows to marry young girls, they did it because it was a custom then, but in Islamic teaching there is a specific verse which allows marrying extremely young girls...technically, a mature man can have up to 4 young wives who have not had their menstruations yet...so, this is normal?

The Torah sets no limit on the number of wives a man may have.

Regarding  marrying extremely young girls, the Torah itself apparently does not give a minimum age limit for marriage, and the Babylonian Talmud (regarded as Oral Torah by the Rabbis) allows a girl of age 3 to get married. Jews today, of course, reject this; and many Muslims today would also reject such child-marriages.

[orthonorm]

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.

Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

I guess it is all more adolescent, though much good comes from adolescence. Just no one tell me another benefit from mindfulness.

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

You two are two of the non-idiots around here and I am not sure if I have ever asked you guys this.

If you want to know about Sufism, don't ask Romaios, cause you will be reading for 18 lifetimes.

[xOrthodox4Christx]

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.

Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

Also, Islam requires Judaism and Christianity to be false. It also requires a bipolar ('good vs evil) worldview. Buddhism isn't really based on this kind of stuff, kind of Existential.

According to its Western shills, but no.

Uh... Yes.

Imam Baghawi said: "The Prophet said: 'By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad! Any person of this community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell.' (Sharh al-Sunna 1.104-5) ...

Ibn Kathir says: The faith of the Jews was that of whoever adhered to the Torah and the sunna (tradition) of Moses (peace be upon him) until the coming of Jesus. When Jesus came, whoever held to the Torah, and Sunna of Moses without giving them up and following Jesus, was lost.

The faith of the Christians was that whoever adhered to the gospel, and precepts of Jesus, their faith was valid and acceptable until the coming of Muhammad (Salla allahu alayhi wa salam). Those of them who did not follow Muhammad (sala allahu alayhi wa sallam) and give up the sunnah of Jesus and the gospel, were lost.

The foregoing evidence is not contradicted by the following verse:

"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve." (Koran 2:62)

was followed by Allah revealing:

"And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers." (Qur'an 3:85)

... [the above] merely confirms that no one's way or spiritual works are acceptable unless they conform to the Sacred Law of Muhammad (Sala allahu alayi wa sallam) now that he has been sent with it. (Tafsir al-Qur'an al-Atheem, 1.103)

[Jetavan]

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.

Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

I guess it is all more adolescent, though much good comes from adolescence. Just no one tell me another benefit from mindfulness.

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

You two are two of the non-idiots around here and I am not sure if I have ever asked you guys this.

If you want to know about Sufism, don't ask Romaios, cause you will be reading for 18 lifetimes.

I would suggest Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, by Chogyam Trungpa.

From an online excerpt: "Although the Buddhist way is not theistic it does not contradict the theistic disciplines."

[orthonorm]

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.

Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

I guess it is all more adolescent, though much good comes from adolescence. Just no one tell me another benefit from mindfulness.

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

You two are two of the non-idiots around here and I am not sure if I have ever asked you guys this.

If you want to know about Sufism, don't ask Romaios, cause you will be reading for 18 lifetimes.

I would suggest Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, by Chogyam Trungpa.

From an online excerpt: "Although the Buddhist way is not theistic it does not contradict the theistic disciplines."

Darn, I've already read that once and looked back at it a few times.

[orthonorm]

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.

Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

Also, Islam requires Judaism and Christianity to be false. It also requires a bipolar ('good vs evil) worldview. Buddhism isn't really based on this kind of stuff, kind of Existential.

According to its Western shills, but no.

Uh... Yes.

Imam Baghawi said: "The Prophet said: 'By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad! Any person of this community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell.' (Sharh al-Sunna 1.104-5) ...

Ibn Kathir says: The faith of the Jews was that of whoever adhered to the Torah and the sunna (tradition) of Moses (peace be upon him) until the coming of Jesus. When Jesus came, whoever held to the Torah, and Sunna of Moses without giving them up and following Jesus, was lost.

The faith of the Christians was that whoever adhered to the gospel, and precepts of Jesus, their faith was valid and acceptable until the coming of Muhammad (Salla allahu alayhi wa salam). Those of them who did not follow Muhammad (sala allahu alayhi wa sallam) and give up the sunnah of Jesus and the gospel, were lost.

The foregoing evidence is not contradicted by the following verse:

"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve." (Koran 2:62)

was followed by Allah revealing:

"And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers." (Qur'an 3:85)

... [the above] merely confirms that no one's way or spiritual works are acceptable unless they conform to the Sacred Law of Muhammad (Sala allahu alayi wa sallam) now that he has been sent with it. (Tafsir al-Qur'an al-Atheem, 1.103)

What does your butchering of the Koran have to do with Buddhism?

[xOrthodox4Christx]

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.

Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

Also, Islam requires Judaism and Christianity to be false. It also requires a bipolar ('good vs evil) worldview. Buddhism isn't really based on this kind of stuff, kind of Existential.

According to its Western shills, but no.

Uh... Yes.

Imam Baghawi said: "The Prophet said: 'By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad! Any person of this community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell.' (Sharh al-Sunna 1.104-5) ...

Ibn Kathir says: The faith of the Jews was that of whoever adhered to the Torah and the sunna (tradition) of Moses (peace be upon him) until the coming of Jesus. When Jesus came, whoever held to the Torah, and Sunna of Moses without giving them up and following Jesus, was lost.

The faith of the Christians was that whoever adhered to the gospel, and precepts of Jesus, their faith was valid and acceptable until the coming of Muhammad (Salla allahu alayhi wa salam). Those of them who did not follow Muhammad (sala allahu alayhi wa sallam) and give up the sunnah of Jesus and the gospel, were lost.

The foregoing evidence is not contradicted by the following verse:

"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve." (Koran 2:62)

was followed by Allah revealing:

"And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers." (Qur'an 3:85)

... [the above] merely confirms that no one's way or spiritual works are acceptable unless they conform to the Sacred Law of Muhammad (Sala allahu alayi wa sallam) now that he has been sent with it. (Tafsir al-Qur'an al-Atheem, 1.103)

What does your butchering of the Koran have to do with Buddhism?

lol Blame the book I was quoting, Reliance of the Traveller, for "butchering the Koran"

[andrewlya]

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?

Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.

The difference is that Judaism does not say it allows to marry young girls, they did it because it was a custom then, but in Islamic teaching there is a specific verse which allows marrying extremely young girls...technically, a mature man can have up to 4 young wives who have not had their menstruations yet...so, this is normal?

The Torah sets no limit on the number of wives a man may have.

Regarding  marrying extremely young girls, the Torah itself apparently does not give a minimum age limit for marriage, and the Babylonian Talmud (regarded as Oral Torah by the Rabbis) allows a girl of age 3 to get married. Jews today, of course, reject this; and many Muslims today would also reject such child-marriages.

This sort of thing still on in conservative Islamic countries where you g girls ARE forced to marry older men..

[andrewlya]

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?

Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.

The difference is that Judaism does not say it allows to marry young girls, they did it because it was a custom then, but in Islamic teaching there is a specific verse which allows marrying extremely young girls...technically, a mature man can have up to 4 young wives who have not had their menstruations yet...so, this is normal?

The Torah sets no limit on the number of wives a man may have.

Regarding  marrying extremely young girls, the Torah itself apparently does not give a minimum age limit for marriage, and the Babylonian Talmud (regarded as Oral Torah by the Rabbis) allows a girl of age 3 to get married. Jews today, of course, reject this; and many Muslims today would also reject such child-marriages.

Do you believe that Christians should follow Prophet Muhammad's teachings?

[Theophilos78]

Regarding  marrying extremely young girls, the Torah itself apparently does not give a minimum age limit for marriage,

You are arguing from silence now. The Torah does not saction child brides either.

and the Babylonian Talmud (regarded as Oral Torah by the Rabbis) allows a girl of age 3 to get married. Jews today, of course, reject this; and many Muslims today would also reject such child-marriages.

This is a false analogy since Muslims' prophet had a child bride.

Besides, Talmud cannot justify what Muhammad did or what his followers do today. Two wrongs do not make a right.

[xOrthodox4Christx]

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.

Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

Also, Islam requires Judaism and Christianity to be false. It also requires a bipolar ('good vs evil) worldview. Buddhism isn't really based on this kind of stuff, kind of Existential.

According to its Western shills, but no.

Uh... Yes.

Imam Baghawi said: "The Prophet said: 'By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad! Any person of this community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell.' (Sharh al-Sunna 1.104-5) ...

Ibn Kathir says: The faith of the Jews was that of whoever adhered to the Torah and the sunna (tradition) of Moses (peace be upon him) until the coming of Jesus. When Jesus came, whoever held to the Torah, and Sunna of Moses without giving them up and following Jesus, was lost.

The faith of the Christians was that whoever adhered to the gospel, and precepts of Jesus, their faith was valid and acceptable until the coming of Muhammad (Salla allahu alayhi wa salam). Those of them who did not follow Muhammad (sala allahu alayhi wa sallam) and give up the sunnah of Jesus and the gospel, were lost.

The foregoing evidence is not contradicted by the following verse:

"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve." (Koran 2:62)

was followed by Allah revealing:

"And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers." (Qur'an 3:85)

... [the above] merely confirms that no one's way or spiritual works are acceptable unless they conform to the Sacred Law of Muhammad (Sala allahu alayi wa sallam) now that he has been sent with it. (Tafsir al-Qur'an al-Atheem, 1.103)

What does your butchering of the Koran have to do with Buddhism?

lol Blame the book I was quoting, Reliance of the Traveller, for "butchering the Koran"

Anyway, I've been to a Buddhist temple before, have read Buddhist literature and have taken classes on Buddhism; if that counts for something. Won't claim to be an expert though.

And if I find that I don't quite like what Christianity has to offer, it'd be my next choice.

[andrewlya]

Regarding  marrying extremely young girls, the Torah itself apparently does not give a minimum age limit for marriage,

You are arguing from silence now. The Torah does not saction child brides either.

and the Babylonian Talmud (regarded as Oral Torah by the Rabbis) allows a girl of age 3 to get married. Jews today, of course, reject this; and many Muslims today would also reject such child-marriages.

This is a false analogy since Muslims' prophet had a child bride.

Besides, Talmud cannot justify what Muhammad did or what his followers do today. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Absolutely spot on.If Torah doesn't specifically prohibit it, it does it mean it's allowed.Muslims are not allowed to drink alcohol but I know a few smoke weed, because it's not specifically forbidden,so if it's not forbidden then taking drugs are OK? Qur'an specifically allows immature girls to be married.

[Iconodule]

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

Assuming you already know the bare basics about Buddhism (Four Noble Truths, etc.), I found that Yin Shun's book The Way to Buddhahood offers a pretty comprehensive, systematic overview of the complete Mahayana teaching as it developed in China. Mind you, it is very flat-footed in its approach but it is BS-free.

[Mor Ephrem]

Do you believe that Christians should follow Prophet Muhammad's teachings?

Better to follow Lord Krishna. 

[andrewlya]

Do you believe that Christians should follow Prophet Muhammad's teachings?

Better to follow Lord Krishna. 

Yeah, yeah I remind myself this is still a Christian site..

[orthonorm]

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

Assuming you already know the bare basics about Buddhism (Four Noble Truths, etc.), I found that Yin Shun's book The Way to Buddhahood offers a pretty comprehensive, systematic overview of the complete Mahayana teaching as it developed in China. Mind you, it is very flat-footed in its approach but it is BS-free.

In the little I've read about Buddhism outside the typical religion for capitalists we get in the West by horrible humans like Suzuki, what I thought most interesting in the basics were the three or four seals. 

I think Jetavans suggestion is a great suggestion for anyone who cares about spiritual stuff as it is one of the more cogent critiques of the hazards of such caring.

Thanks for the suggestion!

[Eastern Mind]

Never mind

[Cackles]

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.

He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”

Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."

Hagar's decendents were a restless and troubled people......Gen. 16:11-12

Once again the Angel of the Lord said to her:
"Behold, you are with child and you shall bear a son.  You shall call his name Ishmael, for the lord has taken notice of your humiliation.  He shall be a rustic man, and his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him. He shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

BINGO!

Do you see how REAL the Bible is now? I'm glad some of you decided to look into this. God is watching you and you are now at a new level of faith and closer towards God. This new level of faith will radiate outwards from you and actually change your outlook closer to how God would like it. Thats how important this is.

Ishmael was a child that was born from Abraham with a sergate mother.. An Egyptian woman. Later, God decided to give Abrahams real wife a child. So the wife decided to cast Hagar and Ishmael away from the tribe.

They set out alone in the dessert. God fealt bad and come down and blessed Ishmael. The place he came down to help them is supposedly Mecca as we know it today. Thats what they say anyway.

Here's what really happened. God had a covenant to pass down. He did NOT see righteousness in Ishmael, or Sarah for that matter. Remember Isaac later on has a rightous wife. We're talking about lineage here.

So God gave Sarah the baby Isaac which was likely a divinely inspired child and not an egyptian. Later on, God saw that he was righteous and hands down the covenant to Abraham and Isaac. Who is NOT there? Ishmael.

This is where the problems start. Because theres an argument which states that only the the father got it, thus it applies to all sons. The other states that it was handed to Abraham and Isaac exclusively.

Many here on the forum, are REAL SONS of Abraham and Isaac. These arent facticious characters and its not a joke. I'm being absolutely serious and believe we will be alive to see the day the DNA will be able to prove the tribe links. Its scary what is going on in that field right now.

If you arent a real son of Abraham and Isaac, then when you are baptised, you become a 'convert' and become a spiritual son of Abraham and Issac which is the same thing and valid with the Bible. Bet ya didnt know that. Its important all of us fall under this lineage for other reasons that I wont get into.

What makes Islam the will of God is very simple: God blessed them. We are living proof that Mohammad must have been something 'special' 1.5 billion people later. Was Mohammad (peace be upon him haha just kidding)  a prophet? At this point in my life and with my knowledge od Islam and my gowing fear of God, i'd say it's possible.

God knows the sons of Ishmael better than we do. The things Mohammad did attracts 'those people'. We might not be able to understand it, but God could have demanded at a certain point that they begin to worship Him, but knew it would take to get them to comply. Mohammad came and did the impossible in my eyes.

The big question is, what would happen if they did NOT become an Islamic? Then I believe the Germans iwould be sitting on that land taking all the oil. But God blessed them with the oil. All this was predicted thousands of years befor Islam even came about or you could do something like drill for oil.

Does God WANT us to intermix with Muslims and live together? NO. they need to stay to their own, we need to stay to ours. Intermixing is essentially secular humanism which God is very apposed to. So just because they were blessed and God allowed them to have Islam, it doesnt mean that our nations should become one nation. The Tower of Babel story demonstrates this as well as many others.

[Cackles]

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.

Buddism and all other 'religions' are based on 'Selfish Motivation'.
Islam, Judaism, and Chrstianity are based on 'Selfless Motivation'.

Big difference. Also the majority od Muslims are God fearing monotheists who are not part of suicide/jihad cults. The women cover their heads. They are wives, mothers. The divorce rate is very low. They have kids and happy families. Feminism has not destroyed their religion.

Personally, I now consider them family.. Like cousins. A cousin is someone you know, but you can make an excuse saying you dont want them to come to your house. They can look for somewhere else to stay. Jews to me are like brothers. If they ask to come to my house, I will open the door. Many will ask them to leave, but those are the non believers who dont believe in family. This paragraph is direved directly from Biblical teachings. Youd be amazed what they say about Jews and Israel. Its unreal how they were able to prohesy all this.

[Cackles]

I would suggest Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, by Chogyam Trungpa.

I would suggest not to (unless of course you are 'advanced and confident' in your spiritual 'knowledge' and theology).

From an online excerpt: "Although the Buddhist way is not theistic it does not contradict the theistic disciplines."

Yes it does depending on how you define words (which is what man-made Idol worship always comes down to - word definitions and meanings that loop into having no meaning).

When you look into your own self for answers or peace, you no longer have a need for God. You turn your back on him, he turns his back on you. When you turn back to him, he'll turn back to you. God allows this for 'those people' in those nations to partake in this Idolatry for a reason, it is not kosher and permitted for us to partake in that kind of Idolatry.

We are also not permitted to practice yoga and especially hum or chant. You can strech, but never meditate. It's best to stay away or take a 'kosher' type of yoga with no spiritual aspect. Any kind of meditative channeling is forbidden for laypersons. Attempting to contact the head is forbidden also.

Note: While channeling/meditating to Jahova is is legitimate and very real, it is certainly way out of our realm as laypersons and even most priests. If we try and try eventually spirits will 'intercept' and we will eventually get cursed. This can last a life so laypeople should not try this. The Pope spends 3 hours each morning praying and meditating. Maybe he can channel to God, we'll never know. God does speak to leaders of religious hierarchy. He may be relaying messages to the Pope that we'll never know simply how deep it runs or how close he is to God. Imagine being in his position and meditating to Jehovah. Image all of a sudden seeing images, flashes of things. Voices. Maybe even direct messages on some occasions. We'll never know. That is certainly knowledge that is within the Vatican which is not very good for laypersons.

[Jetavan]

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?

Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.

The difference is that Judaism does not say it allows to marry young girls, they did it because it was a custom then, but in Islamic teaching there is a specific verse which allows marrying extremely young girls...technically, a mature man can have up to 4 young wives who have not had their menstruations yet...so, this is normal?

The Torah sets no limit on the number of wives a man may have.

Regarding  marrying extremely young girls, the Torah itself apparently does not give a minimum age limit for marriage, and the Babylonian Talmud (regarded as Oral Torah by the Rabbis) allows a girl of age 3 to get married. Jews today, of course, reject this; and many Muslims today would also reject such child-marriages.

Do you believe that Christians should follow Prophet Muhammad's teachings?

Christians should follow Christ.

[Jetavan]

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.

Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

I guess it is all more adolescent, though much good comes from adolescence. Just no one tell me another benefit from mindfulness.

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

You two are two of the non-idiots around here and I am not sure if I have ever asked you guys this.

If you want to know about Sufism, don't ask Romaios, cause you will be reading for 18 lifetimes.

I would suggest Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, by Chogyam Trungpa.

From an online excerpt: "Although the Buddhist way is not theistic it does not contradict the theistic disciplines."

Darn, I've already read that once and looked back at it a few times.

Trungpa's recently published three-volumed teachings on "Hinayana", Mahayana, and Vajrayana (The Path of Individual Liberation; The Bodhisattva Path of Wisdom and Compassion; and The Tantric Path of Indestructible Wakefulness) look very good, too.

[andrewlya]

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?

Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.

The difference is that Judaism does not say it allows to marry young girls, they did it because it was a custom then, but in Islamic teaching there is a specific verse which allows marrying extremely young girls...technically, a mature man can have up to 4 young wives who have not had their menstruations yet...so, this is normal?

The Torah sets no limit on the number of wives a man may have.

Regarding  marrying extremely young girls, the Torah itself apparently does not give a minimum age limit for marriage, and the Babylonian Talmud (regarded as Oral Torah by the Rabbis) allows a girl of age 3 to get married. Jews today, of course, reject this; and many Muslims today would also reject such child-marriages.

Do you believe that Christians should follow Prophet Muhammad's teachings?

Christians should follow Christ.

Agree,so should Muslims and everyone else

[Jetavan]

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.

Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

I guess it is all more adolescent, though much good comes from adolescence. Just no one tell me another benefit from mindfulness.

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

You two are two of the non-idiots around here and I am not sure if I have ever asked you guys this.

If you want to know about Sufism, don't ask Romaios, cause you will be reading for 18 lifetimes.

I would suggest Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, by Chogyam Trungpa.

From an online excerpt: "Although the Buddhist way is not theistic it does not contradict the theistic disciplines."

Darn, I've already read that once and looked back at it a few times.

Trungpa's recently published three-volumed teachings on "Hinayana", Mahayana, and Vajrayana (The Path of Individual Liberation; The Bodhisattva Path of Wisdom and Compassion; and The Tantric Path of Indestructible Wakefulness) look very good, too.

Trungpa might be too Tibeto-centric. From a Theravada perspective, I would suggest the classic The Buddha and His Teachings, by Narada Mahathera.

[orthonorm]

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.

Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

I guess it is all more adolescent, though much good comes from adolescence. Just no one tell me another benefit from mindfulness.

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

You two are two of the non-idiots around here and I am not sure if I have ever asked you guys this.

If you want to know about Sufism, don't ask Romaios, cause you will be reading for 18 lifetimes.

I would suggest Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, by Chogyam Trungpa.

From an online excerpt: "Although the Buddhist way is not theistic it does not contradict the theistic disciplines."

Darn, I've already read that once and looked back at it a few times.

Trungpa's recently published three-volumed teachings on "Hinayana", Mahayana, and Vajrayana (The Path of Individual Liberation; The Bodhisattva Path of Wisdom and Compassion; and The Tantric Path of Indestructible Wakefulness) look very good, too.

Trungpa might be too Tibeto-centric. From a Theravada perspective, I would suggest the classic The Buddha and His Teachings, by Narada Mahathera.

Thanks.

[orthonorm]

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

Assuming you already know the bare basics about Buddhism (Four Noble Truths, etc.), I found that Yin Shun's book The Way to Buddhahood offers a pretty comprehensive, systematic overview of the complete Mahayana teaching as it developed in China. Mind you, it is very flat-footed in its approach but it is BS-free.

I found an electronic copy last night and scanned it. Looks like I am going to have to buy it.

[andrewlya]

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.

He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”

Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."

Hagar's decendents were a restless and troubled people......Gen. 16:11-12

Once again the Angel of the Lord said to her:
"Behold, you are with child and you shall bear a son.  You shall call his name Ishmael, for the lord has taken notice of your humiliation.  He shall be a rustic man, and his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him. He shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

BINGO!

Do you see how REAL the Bible is now? I'm glad some of you decided to look into this. God is watching you and you are now at a new level of faith and closer towards God. This new level of faith will radiate outwards from you and actually change your outlook closer to how God would like it. Thats how important this is.

Ishmael was a child that was born from Abraham with a sergate mother.. An Egyptian woman. Later, God decided to give Abrahams real wife a child. So the wife decided to cast Hagar and Ishmael away from the tribe.

They set out alone in the dessert. God fealt bad and come down and blessed Ishmael. The place he came down to help them is supposedly Mecca as we know it today. Thats what they say anyway.

Here's what really happened. God had a covenant to pass down. He did NOT see righteousness in Ishmael, or Sarah for that matter. Remember Isaac later on has a rightous wife. We're talking about lineage here.

So God gave Sarah the baby Isaac which was likely a divinely inspired child and not an egyptian. Later on, God saw that he was righteous and hands down the covenant to Abraham and Isaac. Who is NOT there? Ishmael.

This is where the problems start. Because theres an argument which states that only the the father got it, thus it applies to all sons. The other states that it was handed to Abraham and Isaac exclusively.

Many here on the forum, are REAL SONS of Abraham and Isaac. These arent facticious characters and its not a joke. I'm being absolutely serious and believe we will be alive to see the day the DNA will be able to prove the tribe links. Its scary what is going on in that field right now.

If you arent a real son of Abraham and Isaac, then when you are baptised, you become a 'convert' and become a spiritual son of Abraham and Issac which is the same thing and valid with the Bible. Bet ya didnt know that. Its important all of us fall under this lineage for other reasons that I wont get into.

What makes Islam the will of God is very simple: God blessed them. We are living proof that Mohammad must have been something 'special' 1.5 billion people later. Was Mohammad (peace be upon him haha just kidding)  a prophet? At this point in my life and with my knowledge od Islam and my gowing fear of God, i'd say it's possible.

God knows the sons of Ishmael better than we do. The things Mohammad did attracts 'those people'. We might not be able to understand it, but God could have demanded at a certain point that they begin to worship Him, but knew it would take to get them to comply. Mohammad came and did the impossible in my eyes.

The big question is, what would happen if they did NOT become an Islamic? Then I believe the Germans iwould be sitting on that land taking all the oil. But God blessed them with the oil. All this was predicted thousands of years befor Islam even came about or you could do something like drill for oil.

Does God WANT us to intermix with Muslims and live together? NO. they need to stay to their own, we need to stay to ours. Intermixing is essentially secular humanism which God is very apposed to. So just because they were blessed and God allowed them to have Islam, it doesnt mean that our nations should become one nation. The Tower of Babel story demonstrates this as well as many others.

One nation? I dont think Muslims are allowed to live as one and equal nation with non Muslims, just look at Saudi Arabia Christianity is against the law like any other religion..

[Jetavan]

....
One nation? I dont think Muslims are allowed to live as one and equal nation with non Muslims, just look at Saudi Arabia Christianity is against the law like any other religion..

Most American Muslims seem to be quite happy living in one nation, equal under the law, in the U.S.

[andrewlya]

....
One nation? I dont think Muslims are allowed to live as one and equal nation with non Muslims, just look at Saudi Arabia Christianity is against the law like any other religion..

Most American Muslims seem to be quite happy living in one nation, equal under the law, in the U.S.

That's because overall, they are in a minority there, when they increase in numbers then they start to enforce their rules..one example is London..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519519/Muslim-Patrol-jailed-harassing-couple-holding-hands-men-drinking-bid-enforce-Sharia-law-East-London.html

[Jetavan]

....
One nation? I dont think Muslims are allowed to live as one and equal nation with non Muslims, just look at Saudi Arabia Christianity is against the law like any other religion..

Most American Muslims seem to be quite happy living in one nation, equal under the law, in the U.S.

That's because overall, they are in a minority there, when they increase in numbers then they start to enforce their rules..one example is London..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519519/Muslim-Patrol-jailed-harassing-couple-holding-hands-men-drinking-bid-enforce-Sharia-law-East-London.html

The article indicates that the "Muslim Patrol" was inspired by an extremist, not your run-of-the-mill British imam.

[xOrthodox4Christx]

....
One nation? I dont think Muslims are allowed to live as one and equal nation with non Muslims, just look at Saudi Arabia Christianity is against the law like any other religion..

Most American Muslims seem to be quite happy living in one nation, equal under the law, in the U.S.

That's because overall, they are in a minority there, when they increase in numbers then they start to enforce their rules..one example is London..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519519/Muslim-Patrol-jailed-harassing-couple-holding-hands-men-drinking-bid-enforce-Sharia-law-East-London.html

The article indicates that the "Muslim Patrol" was inspired by an extremist, not your run-of-the-mill British imam.

The article is wrong. The major Islamic organizations in the UK and in the US are run by the Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan al-Muslimoon) organization.

Britain's Islamic Republic (2010)
Terrorists Among Us: Jihad in America (1994)

Things like this happen in Islamic schools.

[andrewlya]

....
One nation? I dont think Muslims are allowed to live as one and equal nation with non Muslims, just look at Saudi Arabia Christianity is against the law like any other religion..

Most American Muslims seem to be quite happy living in one nation, equal under the law, in the U.S.

That's because overall, they are in a minority there, when they increase in numbers then they start to enforce their rules..one example is London..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519519/Muslim-Patrol-jailed-harassing-couple-holding-hands-men-drinking-bid-enforce-Sharia-law-East-London.html

The article indicates that the "Muslim Patrol" was inspired by an extremist, not your run-of-the-mill British imam.

This is only one of the many similar examples that happen here in the UK...we have big Sikh, Hindus,Jewish large communities they all live in peace,you never hear about any of these communities having extremists doing what Muslims extremists are doing.
Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/islamist-group-march-for-full-sharia-law-in-britain-6797021.html
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/extremist-muslims-to-march-for-sharia-law-243407

[Cackles]

Christians should follow Christ.

And how exactly do we do this?

This is the big question people want to know. I'm seriously asking you as I'd like to know myself.

[Jetavan]

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??

Christians haven't done similarly?

[biro]

Christians should follow Christ.

And how exactly do we do this?

This is the big question people want to know. I'm seriously asking you as I'd like to know myself.

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=love+one+another&qs_version=DRA

 

[andrewlya]

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??

Christians haven't done similarly?

You are a very kind person, a real Christian that's all I can say

[andrewlya]

Christians should follow Christ.

And how exactly do we do this?

This is the big question people want to know. I'm seriously asking you as I'd like to know myself.

Pick up the Bible and read it, seriously best way

[xOrthodox4Christx]

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??

Christians haven't done similarly?

True.

[andrewlya]

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??

Christians haven't done similarly?

Although you surprise me by defending Muslims more than Christians..

[andrewlya]

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??

Christians haven't done similarly?

Do you see or hear about these "Christian patrols" or pro Christian marches in Islamic countries I.e.Saudi Arabia?Or Afganistan? Or Pakistan?etc They would be imprisoned,if not worse,should they do what Muslims do in Christian countries 

[xOrthodox4Christx]

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??

Christians haven't done similarly?

Do you see or hear about these "Christian patrols" or pro Christian marches in Islamic countries I.e.Saudi Arabia?Or Afganistan? Or Pakistan?etc They would be imprisoned,if not worse,should they do what Muslims do in Christian countries 

Secular countries.

[andrewlya]

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??

Christians haven't done similarly?

Muslims countries are the most Christian persecuting, killings and oppressions are frequent occurances, 9 out of 10 most Christian persecuting countries in the world are Muslim countries and you think this is OK? http://m.christianpost.com/news/report-9-out-of-10-top-christian-persecution-countries-due-to-islamic-extremism--112255/

[biro]

I don't think he said it was okay.

[Tags:]

OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion > Topic: Christianity and Islam