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andrewlya
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« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2014, 04:29:54 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
so what religion were they then, Jews?And what are they now, Muslims right?
They weren't ethnically Jews, because they weren't sons of Jacob/Israel. They were ethnically "Abrahamites". Religiously, at the time, they may have worshipped the same deity Abraham worshipped. Today, their descendants are probably mostly Muslim.
So, they could have been so called Hanifs then...Also, if what you are saying is true then Muslims have really been prophesied as a "great nation" in the Old Testament?
True, they could be called Hanifs. I think it is a distinct possibility that the Islamic phenomenon was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Wow, so there is a good possibility our Creator has really intended to create three biggest religions who had got three different views on Abraham religions?
But that would mean that the Prophet Muhammad was actually God's sent messenger??
If that's the case, then it may sounds unfair then to give the order to Muslims to fight their brothers i.e. Jews and Christians...this sounds too complicated.
I would distinguish these two ideas, as not being identical: (1) the Islamic phenomenon being prophesied in the OT; and (2) God inspiring the prophet Muhammad. The first could be true, without the second being true.
Yes, but God referred to Muslims as a GREAT nation...
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« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2014, 04:39:07 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
so what religion were they then, Jews?And what are they now, Muslims right?
They weren't ethnically Jews, because they weren't sons of Jacob/Israel. They were ethnically "Abrahamites". Religiously, at the time, they may have worshipped the same deity Abraham worshipped. Today, their descendants are probably mostly Muslim.
So, they could have been so called Hanifs then...Also, if what you are saying is true then Muslims have really been prophesied as a "great nation" in the Old Testament?
True, they could be called Hanifs. I think it is a distinct possibility that the Islamic phenomenon was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Wow, so there is a good possibility our Creator has really intended to create three biggest religions who had got three different views on Abraham religions?
But that would mean that the Prophet Muhammad was actually God's sent messenger??
If that's the case, then it may sounds unfair then to give the order to Muslims to fight their brothers i.e. Jews and Christians...this sounds too complicated.
I would distinguish these two ideas, as not beingmpor identical: (1) the Islamic phenomenon being prophesied in the OT; and (2) God inspiring the prophet Muhammad. The first could be true, without the second being true.
Yes, but God referred to Muslims as a GREAT nation...

Hmm... The word in Hebrew can mean both.
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« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2014, 04:39:58 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
so what religion were they then, Jews?And what are they now, Muslims right?
They weren't ethnically Jews, because they weren't sons of Jacob/Israel. They were ethnically "Abrahamites". Religiously, at the time, they may have worshipped the same deity Abraham worshipped. Today, their descendants are probably mostly Muslim.
So, they could have been so called Hanifs then...Also, if what you are saying is true then Muslims have really been prophesied as a "great nation" in the Old Testament?
True, they could be called Hanifs. I think it is a distinct possibility that the Islamic phenomenon was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Wow, so there is a good possibility our Creator has really intended to create three biggest religions who had got three different views on Abraham religions?
But that would mean that the Prophet Muhammad was actually God's sent messenger??
If that's the case, then it may sounds unfair then to give the order to Muslims to fight their brothers i.e. Jews and Christians...this sounds too complicated.
I would distinguish these two ideas, as not being identical: (1) the Islamic phenomenon being prophesied in the OT; and (2) God inspiring the prophet Muhammad. The first could be true, without the second being true.
Yes, but God referred to Muslims as a GREAT nation...
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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andrewlya
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« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2014, 04:54:18 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
so what religion were they then, Jews?And what are they now, Muslims right?
They weren't ethnically Jews, because they weren't sons of Jacob/Israel. They were ethnically "Abrahamites". Religiously, at the time, they may have worshipped the same deity Abraham worshipped. Today, their descendants are probably mostly Muslim.
So, they could have been so called Hanifs then...Also, if what you are saying is true then Muslims have really been prophesied as a "great nation" in the Old Testament?
True, they could be called Hanifs. I think it is a distinct possibility that the Islamic phenomenon was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Wow, so there is a good possibility our Creator has really intended to create three biggest religions who had got three different views on Abraham religions?
But that would mean that the Prophet Muhammad was actually God's sent messenger??
If that's the case, then it may sounds unfair then to give the order to Muslims to fight their brothers i.e. Jews and Christians...this sounds too complicated.
I would distinguish these two ideas, as not being identical: (1) the Islamic phenomenon being prophesied in the OT; and (2) God inspiring the prophet Muhammad. The first could be true, without the second being true.
Yes, but God referred to Muslims as a GREAT nation...
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
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« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2014, 05:02:02 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 05:02:23 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2014, 05:03:58 PM »

Yes, but God referred to Muslims as a GREAT nation...

This would be an anachronism as there were no Muslims at that time.

God only referred to Ishmael's descendants, regardless of their faith.  
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 05:04:24 PM by Theophilos78 » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2014, 05:04:35 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."

Hagar's decendents were a restless and troubled people......Gen. 16:11-12

Once again the Angel of the Lord said to her:
"Behold, you are with child and you shall bear a son.  You shall call his name Ishmael, for the lord has taken notice of your humiliation.  He shall be a rustic man, and his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him. He shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."
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andrewlya
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« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2014, 05:05:59 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
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« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2014, 05:07:54 PM »

Yes, but God referred to Muslims as a GREAT nation...

This would be an anachronism as there were no Muslims at that time.

God only referred to Ishmael's descendants, regardless of their faith.  

Exactly, Hagar's offspring was a nation of ( "wonderers" nomads) Arabs not Muslims........Mohammed , not yet a Muslim himself, used Scriptures to design his Faith around Hagar.
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andrewlya
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« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2014, 05:07:58 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?
That's similar to what's happening actually between the Muslims and non Muslims

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."

Hagar's decendents were a restless and troubled people......Gen. 16:11-12

Once again the Angel of the Lord said to her:
"Behold, you are with child and you shall bear a son.  You shall call his name Ishmael, for the lord has taken notice of your humiliation.  He shall be a rustic man, and his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him. He shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."
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« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2014, 05:08:27 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..

Yes, very much like Gog and Magog.  Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2014, 05:08:49 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.
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Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
andrewlya
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« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2014, 05:11:01 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Have you read it?
There is too much violence, when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.
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« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2014, 05:11:36 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 05:16:02 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2014, 05:18:20 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2014, 05:19:05 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 05:21:01 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2014, 05:20:45 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
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« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2014, 05:25:34 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
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Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2014, 05:26:16 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.

Ive compiled my own list of violent verses,but this one is more comprehensive...http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.
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« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2014, 05:26:47 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.


Ive compiled my own list of violent verses,but this one is more comprehensive...http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran
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« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2014, 05:27:40 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.

So, are you saying that Prophet Muhammad taught the same God's message that our Dear Lord Jesus Christ had taught?
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« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2014, 05:28:52 PM »

Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature)
Post-menopausal women also have 'no courses'.

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Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2014, 05:29:37 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.

So, are you saying that Prophet Muhammad taught the same God's message that our Dear Lord Jesus Christ had taught?
No, the messages are a bit different.
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2014, 05:30:15 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.


Ive compiled my own list of violent verses,but this one is more comprehensive...http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran
The link says: "403 - Forbidden: Access is denied.
You do not have permission to view this directory or page using the credentials that you supplied."
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2014, 05:32:34 PM »

Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature)
Post-menopausal women also have 'no courses'.


Post-menopausal women also have 'no courses'- yes which is the 1st part of the verse "women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months," whereas the 2nd part is about "immature" women...this verse is taken from Quran.com
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« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2014, 05:33:06 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.

So, are you saying that Prophet Muhammad taught the same God's message that our Dear Lord Jesus Christ had taught?
No, the messages are a bit different.

A bit different?? I hope you are not serious...
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« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2014, 05:34:20 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.


Ive compiled my own list of violent verses,but this one is more comprehensive...http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran
The link says: "403 - Forbidden: Access is denied.
You do not have permission to view this directory or page using the credentials that you supplied."

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
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« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2014, 05:39:04 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.

I mean Muslims can't even greet non Muslims and wish them Peace Upon you...

"And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not initiate the greeting of salaam with the Jews and Christians, and when you meet them in the street, force them towards the narrowest part of it.” Narrated by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh, 2167 from the Hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah."... I can't understand how can this be a religion of peace?


« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 05:43:28 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2014, 05:44:06 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.

I mean Muslims can't even greet non Muslims and wish them Peace Upon you...

"And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not initiate the greeting of salaam with the Jews and Christians, and when you meet them in the street, force them towards the narrowest part of it.” Narrated by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh, 2167 from the Hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah."... I can't understand how can this be a religion of peace?




You might be worse than Luciferlover.
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« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2014, 05:46:21 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?
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« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2014, 05:47:11 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.

I mean Muslims can't even greet non Muslims and wish them Peace Upon you...

"And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not initiate the greeting of salaam with the Jews and Christians, and when you meet them in the street, force them towards the narrowest part of it.” Narrated by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh, 2167 from the Hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah."... I can't understand how can this be a religion of peace?




You might be worse than Luciferlover.

Who is that? I hope not!
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« Reply #76 on: February 13, 2014, 06:10:40 PM »


Who is that? I hope not!

Suggestion: ignore everything said by crookednorm.
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« Reply #77 on: February 13, 2014, 06:12:11 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Yeah. More like commands and prohibitions than laws in a generic sense though.
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« Reply #78 on: February 13, 2014, 06:22:38 PM »


Who is that? I hope not!

Suggestion: ignore everything said by crookednorm.
Ok, thank you
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« Reply #79 on: February 13, 2014, 06:39:20 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
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« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2014, 06:41:15 PM »


Who is that? I hope not!

Suggestion: ignore everything said by crookednorm.
Ok, thank you

You are listening to someone who believes that Arab speaking Orthodox Christians are practicing idolatry, some unbeknownst to themselves other with intent I suppose after he has enlightened them.

Careful who you listen to.
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« Reply #81 on: February 13, 2014, 06:51:48 PM »


Who is that? I hope not!

Suggestion: ignore everything said by crookednorm.
Ok, thank you
Whatcreligion do you follow?

You are listening to someone who believes that Arab speaking Orthodox Christians are practicing idolatry, some unbeknownst to themselves other with intent I suppose after he has enlightened them.

Careful who you listen to.
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« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2014, 06:52:27 PM »


Who is that? I hope not!

Suggestion: ignore everything said by crookednorm.
Ok, thank you

You are listening to someone who believes that Arab speaking Orthodox Christians are practicing idolatry, some unbeknownst to themselves other with intent I suppose after he has enlightened them.

Careful who you listen to.
What religion do you follow?
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« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2014, 07:10:13 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 07:10:45 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
andrewlya
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« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2014, 07:19:36 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.
One of the Hadeeth states that Muhammad was 57 when he married Aisha ( He had about 13 wives altogether if im correct), who was 6, and consummated the marriage when she was 9...Islamic teachings are not compatible with Jesus's teachings of morality IMHO..
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 07:23:28 PM by andrewlya » Logged

I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all the people
Jetavan
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Barlaam and Josaphat


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« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2014, 07:22:46 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.
One of the Hadeeth states that Muhammad was 57 when he married Aisha ( He had about 13 wives altogether if im correct), who was 6, and consummated the marriage when she was 9...Islamic teachings are not compatible with Jesus's teachings of morality IMHO..

What are your thoughts on this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmbuqjLkwNw
I don't bother with ahadith.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 07:23:09 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
andrewlya
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« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2014, 07:24:30 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.
One of the Hadeeth states that Muhammad was 57 when he married Aisha ( He had about 13 wives altogether if im correct), who was 6, and consummated the marriage when she was 9...Islamic teachings are not compatible with Jesus's teachings of morality IMHO..

What are your thoughts on this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmbuqjLkwNw
I don't bother with ahadith.
Please, ignore that youtube link, it's got swearing on it, dont want to be sharing that sort of material on here..
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andrewlya
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« Reply #87 on: February 13, 2014, 07:29:18 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.
One of the Hadeeth states that Muhammad was 57 when he married Aisha ( He had about 13 wives altogether if im correct), who was 6, and consummated the marriage when she was 9...Islamic teachings are not compatible with Jesus's teachings of morality IMHO..

What are your thoughts on this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmbuqjLkwNw
I don't bother with ahadith.
Yes, it is best not to..
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andrewlya
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Christian all my life and still learning


« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2014, 07:33:09 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.

The difference is that Judaism does not say it allows to marry young girls, they did it because it was a custom then, but in Islamic teaching there is a specific verse which allows marrying extremely young girls...technically, a mature man can have up to 4 young wives who have not had their menstruations yet...so, this is normal?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 07:33:46 PM by andrewlya » Logged

I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all the people
Jetavan
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Barlaam and Josaphat


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« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2014, 07:38:11 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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