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andrewlya
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« on: January 27, 2014, 09:18:30 AM »

Hi dear all, I would just like to share my experience and maybe there are some people on this forum who was also in my position.I used to date a girl who was a Muslim and we had been together for 3 years. When it came to marriage that's when we started debating about how we could reconcile out faith differences.She gave me Quran to read and I was quite scared reading it as I love my Christian faith a lot and I was scared in case this Quran would convert me..but Glory to God the Quran had sent me in the opposite direction because I did not feel the loving and kind G-d that we have in Christianity. Actually, this Quran is so anti Semitic that I'm surprised that it's not banned on racial or anti Semitic reasons.Also, I could not believe that G-d would order to fight the People of the Book I.e. Jews and Christians when these people of G-d. Also, reading the Quran as a non Muslim is not appealing to convert as it really is volatile to not just People of the Book but to non Muslims.There are plenty of other reasons that I did not agree with Islam. I also had a dream about my Granny who I loved so much and who had brought me to G-d and Christ when I was small.Now she's gone to our Father, a few years ago, and I had a dream about her telling me that she believes in Jesus Christ.So for me it was like a confirmation that I was right to have chosen to stay with Christianity. Needless to say, that we split up with that Muslim girl. I've now found a Christian girl who's the best girl I had ever dreamt of. Would be interesting if people can share similar stories or if you came to Christianity from Islam,G-D bless you all:)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 09:22:40 AM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2014, 01:14:03 PM »

Hi dear all, I would just like to share my experience and maybe there are some people on this forum who was also in my position.I used to date a girl who was a Muslim and we had been together for 3 years. When it came to marriage that's when we started debating about how we could reconcile out faith differences.She gave me Quran to read and I was quite scared reading it as I love my Christian faith a lot and I was scared in case this Quran would convert me..but Glory to God the Quran had sent me in the opposite direction because I did not feel the loving and kind G-d that we have in Christianity. Actually, this Quran is so anti Semitic that I'm surprised that it's not banned on racial or anti Semitic reasons.Also, I could not believe that G-d would order to fight the People of the Book I.e. Jews and Christians when these people of G-d. Also, reading the Quran as a non Muslim is not appealing to convert as it really is volatile to not just People of the Book but to non Muslims.There are plenty of other reasons that I did not agree with Islam. I also had a dream about my Granny who I loved so much and who had brought me to G-d and Christ when I was small.Now she's gone to our Father, a few years ago, and I had a dream about her telling me that she believes in Jesus Christ.So for me it was like a confirmation that I was right to have chosen to stay with Christianity. Needless to say, that we split up with that Muslim girl. I've now found a Christian girl who's the best girl I had ever dreamt of. Would be interesting if people can share similar stories or if you came to Christianity from Islam,G-D bless you all:)

Wow thats VERY rare that a muslim family let you date their daughter. i've only seen one imterfaith marriage in all my years. Even then she was Ismali muslim which are much less strict.

Islam also believes in Christ and believes in the virgin birth from God to Marry. But they dont believe in Jesus as a God or Diety. They also dont believe he died on the cross. They are also from the line of Ishmael.

If you like schollarly works and nitpicking rules, Islam is FILLED with scollars, rullings, schools. Etc. there is no religion that has more 'faith culture' than Islam. Nothing else even compares. The songs, dances, practices.

For instance they have tons of Holy grave sites they visit. They have traditions where they recite prayers that are word of mouth only. Like 'oral Torah' that gets passed down. They have strange stuff that goes on in the mosques that most dont realize. Like they'll have nights where they are yelling and jumping around praising God. Then the Shia's are well hated and considered a cult by many muslims. Then there's TONS of sects and unfortunately cults that get political funding. They do all the healing stuff too. They have TONS of cults and sects. You would think they are all the same but their not.

The Quran has so much war stories and fighting though. The Muslims are God fearing and monotheist.

And ultimately, 1.5 Billion people later must mean that God allowed this to happen. Maybe they really did meed this social reform for that region because before then was prostitues, idol worship, immoralism, etc. till this day strange stuff goes on in places like Saudi Arabia, Qutar, Oman, these kinds of places.. Weird stuff youd never ever think muslims do cause keep in mind how recent they are. Many countries are still new to Islam in context. It was Islam that kept the germanics out of the middle east. They did serve a pupose.

From experience Muslims are are 'schollars' more than 'workers'. Lazy. They stuff into Univerities. They love Govt jobs, immigration.. Those are always bad signs to me.

Orthodox are workers and business owners. They dont do well in University and Gov't jobs. They are similar to Jews in that regard but get their hands a bit more dirty doing honest work as compared with the Jewish community who often have more posch jons albiet in the private sector.

Yes and the Quran and muslims hate Jews man.. Wow... They're Imams always have to bring up something about jews.

I just get offended whem they call us 'polytheists'. That offends me. Its like they call Jews as is, then call us 'polytheists'. Im like whaa??
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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2014, 07:33:23 PM »

Hi dear all, I would just like to share my experience and maybe there are some people on this forum who was also in my position.I used to date a girl who was a Muslim and we had been together for 3 years. When it came to marriage that's when we started debating about how we could reconcile out faith differences.She gave me Quran to read and I was quite scared reading it as I love my Christian faith a lot and I was scared in case this Quran would convert me..but Glory to God the Quran had sent me in the opposite direction because I did not feel the loving and kind G-d that we have in Christianity. Actually, this Quran is so anti Semitic that I'm surprised that it's not banned on racial or anti Semitic reasons.Also, I could not believe that G-d would order to fight the People of the Book I.e. Jews and Christians when these people of G-d. Also, reading the Quran as a non Muslim is not appealing to convert as it really is volatile to not just People of the Book but to non Muslims.There are plenty of other reasons that I did not agree with Islam. I also had a dream about my Granny who I loved so much and who had brought me to G-d and Christ when I was small.Now she's gone to our Father, a few years ago, and I had a dream about her telling me that she believes in Jesus Christ.So for me it was like a confirmation that I was right to have chosen to stay with Christianity. Needless to say, that we split up with that Muslim girl. I've now found a Christian girl who's the best girl I had ever dreamt of. Would be interesting if people can share similar stories or if you came to Christianity from Islam,G-D bless you all:)

Wow thats VERY rare that a muslim family let you date their daughter. i've only seen one imterfaith marriage in all my years. Even then she was Ismali muslim which are much less strict.

Islam also believes in Christ and believes in the virgin birth from God to Marry. But they dont believe in Jesus as a God or Diety. They also dont believe he died on the cross. They are also from the line of Ishmael.

If you like schollarly works and nitpicking rules, Islam is FILLED with scollars, rullings, schools. Etc. there is no religion that has more 'faith culture' than Islam. Nothing else even compares. The songs, dances, practices.

For instance they have tons of Holy grave sites they visit. They have traditions where they recite prayers that are word of mouth only. Like 'oral Torah' that gets passed down. They have strange stuff that goes on in the mosques that most dont realize. Like they'll have nights where they are yelling and jumping around praising God. Then the Shia's are well hated and considered a cult by many muslims. Then there's TONS of sects and unfortunately cults that get political funding. They do all the healing stuff too. They have TONS of cults and sects. You would think they are all the same but their not.

The Quran has so much war stories and fighting though. The Muslims are God fearing and monotheist.

And ultimately, 1.5 Billion people later must mean that God allowed this to happen. Maybe they really did meed this social reform for that region because before then was prostitues, idol worship, immoralism, etc. till this day strange stuff goes on in places like Saudi Arabia, Qutar, Oman, these kinds of places.. Weird stuff youd never ever think muslims do cause keep in mind how recent they are. Many countries are still new to Islam in context. It was Islam that kept the germanics out of the middle east. They did serve a pupose.

From experience Muslims are are 'schollars' more than 'workers'. Lazy. They stuff into Univerities. They love Govt jobs, immigration.. Those are always bad signs to me.

Orthodox are workers and business owners. They dont do well in University and Gov't jobs. They are similar to Jews in that regard but get their hands a bit more dirty doing honest work as compared with the Jewish community who often have more posch jons albiet in the private sector.

Yes and the Quran and muslims hate Jews man.. Wow... They're Imams always have to bring up something about jews.

I just get offended whem they call us 'polytheists'. That offends me. Its like they call Jews as is, then call us 'polytheists'. Im like whaa??

Yes, her family was very liberal even though they are Sunni, the strictest branch. Her dad is very westernised and her mum is very traditional, but they were fine with us, but the only thing was that I had to convert to Islam in order to marry her, so I read the Quran and also some Hadiths, and found that it is not a a sequence of Judaism/Christianity...Ive studied it in great details, some of it makes sense, a lot of it doesn't like their belief that Prophet Muhammad will marry Mary, the mother of Jesus.
Also, I can't believe that God's chosen people i.e. would be so much hated by G-d as they are described the most bitter enemies of Muslims and this Hadith, is apparently,taught in Madrasas in Saudi Arabia, and probably, in other Islamic countries as Hadith is taught in Islamic as well as Quran.

Sahih Muslim,
Book 041, Number 6985:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

Also,ive noticed that they have one version of Quran for Muslims and one for non Muslims that is translated less violent i.e. they use different translations, words, to one that's taught to Muslims so it appears more appealing to non Muslims.

And they say that Bible,Torah are distorted and corrupted but at the same time they refer to our Scriptures to justify the prophesy of prophet Muhammad,which is, clearly, not there...
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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2014, 07:39:01 PM »

wOW.

This is some thread. Cackles, keep up the fine work.
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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2014, 07:50:07 PM »

Non-Muslim men are not allowed to be with Muslim women in Islam. Very few exceptions. One such exception is the adoption of Islam on the part of the men.

Here's one tradition I like to share.

Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 6819
Narrated Ibn `Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (ﷺ) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.

Quote from: St. John 7:53-8:11
53 Then they all went home, 8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 07:51:55 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2014, 07:55:17 PM »

]
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 6819
Narrated Ibn `Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (ﷺ) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.

It's seems very Pauline to me. Live by the law, die by the law.
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« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2014, 07:57:49 PM »

]
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 6819
Narrated Ibn `Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (ﷺ) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.

It's seems very Pauline to me. Live by the law, die by the law.

"For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God."
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« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2014, 08:18:06 PM »

]
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 6819
Narrated Ibn `Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (ﷺ) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.

It's seems very Pauline to me. Live by the law, die by the law.

This comment seems very Meccan to me.
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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2014, 08:33:41 PM »

Anything with "Christianity" and "Islam" in it means one thing

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« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2014, 12:52:48 AM »

The Islamic conception of God is not of the highest conceivable being, as he is in Christianity. Islam also denies the death and resurrection of Christ. There are several debates on Youtube featuring people like William Lane Craig (my favorite Evangelical Apologist) debating Muslims. See also the debates with James White.

The Islamic view that Jesus never died on the cross, goes against the consensus of all of modern scholarship. Jesus' death on the cross is considered an historical fact by about 100 percent of New Testament scholars, whether they are conservative or liberal. Islam takes a non-historical approach, which is ludicrous. Also, the Journal of American Medical Society did a study and confirmed in 1985 that Jesus did in fact die by crucifixion. For more on this, read, "The Case For the Resurrection of Jesus," by Habermas and Licona.
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« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2014, 03:40:28 AM »

Non-Muslim men are not allowed to be with Muslim women in Islam. Very few exceptions. One such exception is the adoption of Islam on the part of the men.

Here's one tradition I like to share.

Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 6819
Narrated Ibn `Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (ﷺ) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.

Quote from: St. John 7:53-8:11
53 Then they all went home, 8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
Yes, men are allowed to marry non Muslim women...Men get preferential rights unlike their the women..
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« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2014, 06:16:49 AM »

The Islamic conception of God is not of the highest conceivable being, as he is in Christianity. Islam also denies the death and resurrection of Christ. There are several debates on Youtube featuring people like William Lane Craig (my favorite Evangelical Apologist) debating Muslims. See also the debates with James White.

The Islamic view that Jesus never died on the cross, goes against the consensus of all of modern scholarship. Jesus' death on the cross is considered an historical fact by about 100 percent of New Testament scholars, whether they are conservative or liberal. Islam takes a non-historical approach, which is ludicrous. Also, the Journal of American Medical Society did a study and confirmed in 1985 that Jesus did in fact die by crucifixion. For more on this, read, "The Case For the Resurrection of Jesus," by Habermas and Licona.
Thats a very good post! Apart from historical facts that confirm Jesus's suffering for us ,Quran contradicts the prophesy of the Messaih which in Psalms 22.1. Also, I don't believe that apostates are ordered to be killed like according Islamic law as then there is no chance of that person to revert back...Islam is more of an ideology than a religion which is controlled with an iron fist.
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« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2014, 01:20:19 PM »

Actually, I mean, the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), not the Journal of the American Medical Society.
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« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2014, 01:20:19 PM »

]
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 6819
Narrated Ibn `Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (ﷺ) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.

It's seems very Pauline to me. Live by the law, die by the law.

If you think the Arabs do crazy things now, just imagine before Islam. Thats something to keep in mind.

The Torah has verses to actually stone your son to death in the courtyard infront of all your neighbours if he disobeys his parents or something along those lines.

The Rabbi's have the authority to make up stories and add fabrications to scriptures. It was nothing unusual for the time, and it was also common to have stories cooked up to scare kids and young couples. The Rabbi's acknowledge this universally about these stories.

Stoning was likely a 'harsh' punishment, but it would hard to have it be fatal from pebbles on the ground. To kill somone you would likely hang them to death which was done through most of history, even in the US till recently.

The message of Jesus was a good one - dont pass judgement. If God allowed the Muslims to happen, there must be a reason. It could be, that the middle east would be too peaceful and great if it was all Christians. So God gave us muslims hehehe..

Its POSSIBLE that Mohammed was sent as a profit to get Muslims established for many reasons. But before the Messiah comes, all of humanity must be aware of who he is. We're at a point of the world where they all know the story. Many just within the last 10 years due to the Internet.

He sent Jesus as his son wich eventually started off Islam. Everyone believing in God the creator. The rest dont. God knew how to speak to these people and keep them in line. After all, they were from the line of Ishmael. Go see what the Torah has to say about them you wont believe it they were able to predict this 2000 years before Islam was created.

God wants laypeople to have families and believe in him as the one God the creator above all else. He wants us to excersize free will.

The facts are, Orthodox Christians, Muslims, amd Jews are all in the same boat as far as theology. We're closely related. Its possible God used Mohammed as a profit. They are more monotheist than us and have a WAY LESS dovorce rate over all. Muslims have marriage regardless of looks. They really are closer to God to a large extent.

My beef is I dont like being called polythesit and excluded from the Jewish/Islam circle. The two of them think their both closer to one another because of circumscision, pork, and God. But theres a hate on both sides for one another that neither have for Christians. They think our 'born sinner' theology is blasphomous as well as our Holy Trinity Kabahlla style concept of God which doesnt sit well with me an millions of others pushing for reform.
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« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2014, 01:20:19 PM »

wOW.

This is some thread. Cackles, keep up the fine work.

You mentioned Pauline.. We're a product of that... But...

Well did you ever wonder where the earliest middle eastern Christians went as they fled persacution?

WOW!!!! I dont want to get into heresys or have people get mad at me heheh!!

As I said, when you know the whole story and possibilities, Gods hand must have been at work so now I no longer curse-out Islam and have reserved Judgment on possibilities that I could be cursing Gods will.

Just like how many.. I'd wager MOST Jews secretly hold a 'beleif' that he could have been the Messiah. They'd be silly not to. I too now hold a belief that yes its possible that this Mohommad could have been used by God to setup that empire and keep the germanics and asians out of his oil blessed lands. They also supposedly needed social reform badly.

Only God knows. He had his reasons. And FWIW, theres way more murders in a big city in North/South America than there is in these Muslim countires. Over here you see a movie shots can break out. You honk at the wrong person you can get shot.
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« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2014, 10:14:28 AM »

]
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 6819
Narrated Ibn `Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (ﷺ) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.

It's seems very Pauline to me. Live by the law, die by the law.

If you think the Arabs do crazy things now, just imagine before Islam. Thats something to keep in mind.

The Torah has verses to actually stone your son to death in the courtyard infront of all your neighbours if he disobeys his parents or something along those lines.

The Rabbi's have the authority to make up stories and add fabrications to scriptures. It was nothing unusual for the time, and it was also common to have stories cooked up to scare kids and young couples. The Rabbi's acknowledge this universally about these stories.

Stoning was likely a 'harsh' punishment, but it would hard to have it be fatal from pebbles on the ground. To kill somone you would likely hang them to death which was done through most of history, even in the US till recently.

The message of Jesus was a good one - dont pass judgement. If God allowed the Muslims to happen, there must be a reason. It could be, that the middle east would be too peaceful and great if it was all Christians. So God gave us muslims hehehe..

Its POSSIBLE that Mohammed was sent as a profit to get Muslims established for many reasons. But before the Messiah comes, all of humanity must be aware of who he is. We're at a point of the world where they all know the story. Many just within the last 10 years due to the Internet.

He sent Jesus as his son wich eventually started off Islam. Everyone believing in God the creator. The rest dont. God knew how to speak to these people and keep them in line. After all, they were from the line of Ishmael. Go see what the Torah has to say about them you wont believe it they were able to predict this 2000 years before Islam was created.

God wants laypeople to have families and believe in him as the one God the creator above all else. He wants us to excersize free will.

The facts are, Orthodox Christians, Muslims, amd Jews are all in the same boat as far as theology. We're closely related. Its possible God used Mohammed as a profit. They are more monotheist than us and have a WAY LESS dovorce rate over all. Muslims have marriage regardless of looks. They really are closer to God to a large extent.

My beef is I dont like being called polythesit and excluded from the Jewish/Islam circle. The two of them think their both closer to one another because of circumscision, pork, and God. But theres a hate on both sides for one another that neither have for Christians. They think our 'born sinner' theology is blasphomous as well as our Holy Trinity Kabahlla style concept of God which doesnt sit well with me an millions of others pushing for reform.
What reform? What I don't like about Islam is that this is the most Christian prosecuting religious group in the world (http://m.christianpost.com/news/report-9-out-of-10-top-christian-persecution-countries-due-to-islamic-extremism--112255/) they kidnap and kill Christian priests, kill Christian civilians and even Christian nuns have been kidnapped in Syria! You will say that they are radicals, I say some of them follow the verse literarily I.e. To fight Christians and that Jesus will destroy the Cross etc That's in their Scripture, that's why I don't believe they are G-d sent religion because G-d would not have revealed such a verse as He knows it will create conflicts between so called People of the Book. I don't believe the fact that G-d chose Jews as His people, then changed His mind and ordered Muslims to fight and kill them...There were not supposed to be any more Prophets after the Messaih, apart from the false prophets as according to Jesus.Statisticaly,Christians are the most persecutied religion in the world because we are meant to love our enemy and Muslims are meant to fight and kill the enemies of Islam.On the face of it at 1st Islam may make sense I.e.the way they interpret the Trinity, but the rest is Just a volatile and, in some places,is even immoral. One thing to say there are peace loving Muslims, which most are, another is to say that Islam is a religion of peace, which is clearly not after studying the Quran and some Hadiths.It doesn't exactly promote peace in the world does it?You recognise a tree by its fruits and the fruits are what we see nowadays. Just in my city Volgograd/Stalingrad there were 3 suicide bombings by Muslim terrorists, in a such a civilised city those atrocities are more than shocking.
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« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2014, 10:30:05 AM »

I met my fiance while still Muslim and living in Egypt, and became engaged to him while I was Muslim as well. It happens. Thankfully I am no longer a follower of Islam now.

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« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2014, 11:02:16 AM »

I met my fiance while still Muslim and living in Egypt, and became engaged to him while I was Muslim as well. It happens. Thankfully I am no longer a follower of Islam now.


I really admire people like you! Please, share why you left Islam and joined Orthodoxy, I'd love to know:) G-d bless you!
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« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2014, 11:18:17 AM »

I met my fiance while still Muslim and living in Egypt, and became engaged to him while I was Muslim as well. It happens. Thankfully I am no longer a follower of Islam now.


I really admire people like you! Please, share why you left Islam and joined Orthodoxy, I'd love to know:) G-d bless you!

I posted my little spill about that a while back. I'll look through my old posts in a bit and give a link versus re-typing the whole thing. Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2014, 11:56:19 AM »

I met my fiance while still Muslim and living in Egypt, and became engaged to him while I was Muslim as well. It happens. Thankfully I am no longer a follower of Islam now.


I really admire people like you! Please, share why you left Islam and joined Orthodoxy, I'd love to know:) G-d bless you!

I posted my little spill about that a while back. I'll look through my old posts in a bit and give a link versus re-typing the whole thing. Smiley
Thats great! Thanks a lot, I love reading stories like yours!:)
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« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2014, 06:31:05 PM »

I met my fiance while still Muslim and living in Egypt, and became engaged to him while I was Muslim as well. It happens. Thankfully I am no longer a follower of Islam now.



Praise God. A marriage and a conversion. so many women now cant find men at all. They arent getting married and learning to love themselves. God wants to see you both become one. You arent complete umless you are married and especially have kids. Be a wife and him be a husband in your roles and God will look after you through turbulent times.
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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2014, 01:34:57 PM »

]
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 6819
Narrated Ibn `Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (ﷺ) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.

It's seems very Pauline to me. Live by the law, die by the law.

If you think the Arabs do crazy things now, just imagine before Islam. Thats something to keep in mind.

The Torah has verses to actually stone your son to death in the courtyard infront of all your neighbours if he disobeys his parents or something along those lines.

The Rabbi's have the authority to make up stories and add fabrications to scriptures. It was nothing unusual for the time, and it was also common to have stories cooked up to scare kids and young couples. The Rabbi's acknowledge this universally about these stories.

Stoning was likely a 'harsh' punishment, but it would hard to have it be fatal from pebbles on the ground. To kill somone you would likely hang them to death which was done through most of history, even in the US till recently.

"Pebbles"?!?  Stoning someone wasn't/isn't done with pebbles.  It still happens on this planet and the victim (often a woman) is  killed by having rocks/bricks/large pieces of stone thrown at her.  Yes, this is a harsh and cruel capital punishment.  It is meant to end a life. 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/special-report-the-punishment-was-death-by-stoning-the-crime-having-a-mobile-phone-8846585.html

Quote
Go see what the Torah has to say about them you wont believe it they were able to predict this 2000 years before Islam was created.

Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.

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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2014, 01:40:37 PM »


I'd wager MOST Jews secretly hold a 'beleif' that he could have been the Messiah. They'd be silly not to.


 
On what basis would you make that wager?  Do you know any Jewish people personally and have asked them?
Why would they have been "silly" to not believe that Jesus could have been the Messiah?
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2014, 01:45:26 PM »

Yes, her family was very liberal even though they are Sunni, the strictest branch.

There is nothing especially strict about Sunnis versus other parts of Islam. But then there are about a zillion other factual errors and absurdities in this thread, so why bother?
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2014, 01:55:59 PM »


I'd wager MOST Jews secretly hold a 'beleif' that he could have been the Messiah. They'd be silly not to.


 
On what basis would you make that wager?  Do you know any Jewish people personally and have asked them?
Why would they have been "silly" to not believe that Jesus could have been the Messiah?

Yeah well, 'Jews' mean anything from Atheist to Hasidic hard-heads.
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« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2014, 05:15:54 PM »

]
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 6819
Narrated Ibn `Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (ﷺ) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.

It's seems very Pauline to me. Live by the law, die by the law.

If you think the Arabs do crazy things now, just imagine before Islam. Thats something to keep in mind.

The Torah has verses to actually stone your son to death in the courtyard infront of all your neighbours if he disobeys his parents or something along those lines.

The Rabbi's have the authority to make up stories and add fabrications to scriptures. It was nothing unusual for the time, and it was also common to have stories cooked up to scare kids and young couples. The Rabbi's acknowledge this universally about these stories.

Stoning was likely a 'harsh' punishment, but it would hard to have it be fatal from pebbles on the ground. To kill somone you would likely hang them to death which was done through most of history, even in the US till recently.

"Pebbles"?!?  Stoning someone wasn't/isn't done with pebbles.  It still happens on this planet and the victim (often a woman) is  killed by having rocks/bricks/large pieces of stone thrown at her.  Yes, this is a harsh and cruel capital punishment.  It is meant to end a life. 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/special-report-the-punishment-was-death-by-stoning-the-crime-having-a-mobile-phone-8846585.html

Quote
Go see what the Torah has to say about them you wont believe it they were able to predict this 2000 years before Islam was created.

Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.


Muslims contradict themselves when they say Islam overrides all previous religions and scriptures because they are distorted and corrupted but then use Torah and Injeel verses to show proof of the coming of Islam...
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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2014, 05:19:31 PM »

Yes, her family was very liberal even though they are Sunni, the strictest branch.

There is nothing especially strict about Sunnis versus other parts of Islam. But then there are about a zillion other factual errors and absurdities in this thread, so why bother?
What factual errors?
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« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2014, 09:41:47 AM »

My brothers and sisters, i want that you put attention on this.
We all know that moslems use a massive amount of forgeries and i want to show one of these forgeries that i recently came across.


One moslem i debated with quoted me "Gospel of the Nazorenes, Lection 33, verses 1-2" negating the atonement of Christ and blaming Saint Paul of having corrupted the teachings of Jesus Christ.  He took these bogus infos from imam Abdullah Smith and his article on answering-christianity.com called "the Anti-Christ Paul" (May God forgive them for what they are saying against Saint Paul). 

On internet there are many islamic forums quoting this.
Abdullah Smith says he was a christian who converted to Islam.
In other sources i read that he was a "nominal christian".

Making some research i found that this quotation of the "Gospel of the Nazorenes" is in reality a quote from the "Gospel of the Holy Twelve".  The author of it is the former reverend Gideon Jasper Richard Ouseley (1834–1906).
Ouseley said that he found this essene gospel, written in aramaic, in a buddhist temple in Tibet, preserved from corruption by buddhist monks.
Also this book promotes vegetarianism, as another well known hoax, Szekely's "Essene Gospel of Peace".

Scholar Richard Alan Young, a Professor of New Testament Studies said :

"It appears that Ouseley CREATED The Gospel of the Holy Twelve in support of animal welfare and vegetarianism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_the_Holy_Twelve
www.thenazareneway.com/ght_table_of_contents.htm

So, beware of these mohammedan liars. They are wolves in sheep clothes.

May you all be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves"  Wink
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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2014, 11:34:52 AM »

Quote
What reform? What I don't like about Islam is that this is the most Christian prosecuting religious group in the world (http://m.christianpost.com/news/report-9-out-of-10-top-christian-persecution-countries-due-to-islamic-extremism--112255/) they kidnap and kill Christian priests, kill Christian civilians and even Christian nuns have been kidnapped in Syria! You will say that they are radicals, I say some of them follow the verse literarily I.e. To fight Christians and that Jesus will destroy the Cross etc That's in their Scripture, that's why I don't believe they are G-d sent religion because G-d would not have revealed such a verse as He knows it will create conflicts between so called People of the Book. I don't believe the fact that G-d chose Jews as His people, then changed His mind and ordered Muslims to fight and kill them...There were not supposed to be any more Prophets after the Messaih, apart from the false prophets as according to Jesus.Statisticaly,Christians are the most persecutied religion in the world because we are meant to love our enemy and Muslims are meant to fight and kill the enemies of Islam.On the face of it at 1st Islam may make sense I.e.the way they interpret the Trinity, but the rest is Just a volatile and, in some places,is even immoral. One thing to say there are peace loving Muslims, which most are, another is to say that Islam is a religion of peace, which is clearly not after studying the Quran and some Hadiths.It doesn't exactly promote peace in the world does it?You recognise a tree by its fruits and the fruits are what we see nowadays. Just in my city Volgograd/Stalingrad there were 3 suicide bombings by Muslim terrorists, in a such a civilised city those atrocities are more than shocking.

You are correct on everything you say here.  I remember once I asked a muslim woman if she could sum-up islam in one word, what would it be(?) and she said: "peace."  I almost vomited as I could not believe how cynical such a statement was. 

I bought a copy of the koran a while back and finally began to read it.  From the get-go, it speaks about hatred and punishing those that don't believe.  If I could could sum-up islam more properly in just a few words, I would say: "hate, violence, totalitarianism and war-friendly."

One point I would like to correct.  Muslims/Arabs are also semitic.  It really bothers me how nowadays the phrase "anti-semitic" is wrongly used exclusively for jews.  The Fact is that: Semites are people who speak arabic, hebrew and Aramaic/Syriac.  The word is not exclusively owned by jews.
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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2014, 11:59:11 AM »

Quote
What reform? What I don't like about Islam is that this is the most Christian prosecuting religious group in the world (http://m.christianpost.com/news/report-9-out-of-10-top-christian-persecution-countries-due-to-islamic-extremism--112255/) they kidnap and kill Christian priests, kill Christian civilians and even Christian nuns have been kidnapped in Syria! You will say that they are radicals, I say some of them follow the verse literarily I.e. To fight Christians and that Jesus will destroy the Cross etc That's in their Scripture, that's why I don't believe they are G-d sent religion because G-d would not have revealed such a verse as He knows it will create conflicts between so called People of the Book. I don't believe the fact that G-d chose Jews as His people, then changed His mind and ordered Muslims to fight and kill them...There were not supposed to be any more Prophets after the Messaih, apart from the false prophets as according to Jesus.Statisticaly,Christians are the most persecutied religion in the world because we are meant to love our enemy and Muslims are meant to fight and kill the enemies of Islam.On the face of it at 1st Islam may make sense I.e.the way they interpret the Trinity, but the rest is Just a volatile and, in some places,is even immoral. One thing to say there are peace loving Muslims, which most are, another is to say that Islam is a religion of peace, which is clearly not after studying the Quran and some Hadiths.It doesn't exactly promote peace in the world does it?You recognise a tree by its fruits and the fruits are what we see nowadays. Just in my city Volgograd/Stalingrad there were 3 suicide bombings by Muslim terrorists, in a such a civilised city those atrocities are more than shocking.

You are correct on everything you say here.  I remember once I asked a muslim woman if she could sum-up islam in one word, what would it be(?) and she said: "peace."  I almost vomited as I could not believe how cynical such a statement was. 

I bought a copy of the koran a while back and finally began to read it.  From the get-go, it speaks about hatred and punishing those that don't believe.  If I could could sum-up islam more properly in just a few words, I would say: "hate, violence, totalitarianism and war-friendly."

One point I would like to correct.  Muslims/Arabs are also semitic.  It really bothers me how nowadays the phrase "anti-semitic" is wrongly used exclusively for jews.  The Fact is that: Semites are people who speak arabic, hebrew and Aramaic/Syriac.  The word is not exclusively owned by jews.

True, but another thing I'd like to correct from your post is that most Muslims are not Arabs, and not Semitic. Most Muslims live in South and Southeast Asia.

Most Arabs are Muslims, most Muslims are not Arab though.
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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2014, 04:53:06 PM »

Quote
What reform? What I don't like about Islam is that this is the most Christian prosecuting religious group in the world (http://m.christianpost.com/news/report-9-out-of-10-top-christian-persecution-countries-due-to-islamic-extremism--112255/) they kidnap and kill Christian priests, kill Christian civilians and even Christian nuns have been kidnapped in Syria! You will say that they are radicals, I say some of them follow the verse literarily I.e. To fight Christians and that Jesus will destroy the Cross etc That's in their Scripture, that's why I don't believe they are G-d sent religion because G-d would not have revealed such a verse as He knows it will create conflicts between so called People of the Book. I don't believe the fact that G-d chose Jews as His people, then changed His mind and ordered Muslims to fight and kill them...There were not supposed to be any more Prophets after the Messaih, apart from the false prophets as according to Jesus.Statisticaly,Christians are the most persecutied religion in the world because we are meant to love our enemy and Muslims are meant to fight and kill the enemies of Islam.On the face of it at 1st Islam may make sense I.e.the way they interpret the Trinity, but the rest is Just a volatile and, in some places,is even immoral. One thing to say there are peace loving Muslims, which most are, another is to say that Islam is a religion of peace, which is clearly not after studying the Quran and some Hadiths.It doesn't exactly promote peace in the world does it?You recognise a tree by its fruits and the fruits are what we see nowadays. Just in my city Volgograd/Stalingrad there were 3 suicide bombings by Muslim terrorists, in a such a civilised city those atrocities are more than shocking.

You are correct on everything you say here.  I remember once I asked a muslim woman if she could sum-up islam in one word, what would it be(?) and she said: "peace."  I almost vomited as I could not believe how cynical such a statement was.  

I bought a copy of the koran a while back and finally began to read it.  From the get-go, it speaks about hatred and punishing those that don't believe.  If I could could sum-up islam more properly in just a few words, I would say: "hate, violence, totalitarianism and war-friendly."

One point I would like to correct.  Muslims/Arabs are also semitic.  It really bothers me how nowadays the phrase "anti-semitic" is wrongly used exclusively for jews.  The Fact is that: Semites are people who speak arabic, hebrew and Aramaic/Syriac.  The word is not exclusively owned by jews.
Correct me if Im wrong but prophet Muhammad was a warrior. Initially, he preached Islam peacefully to Meccan pagans,Christians and Jews and when they did not convert all he used force to conquer Mecca and Medina. Muslims used to pray in the direction of Jerusalem, but when Jews did not convert, Muhammad changed the prayer direction towards the Kaaba, the most Holy place of then- pagans.Muhammad also expanded his wealth by raiding caravans and also ordered to kill a few people because they offended him in some way or another as according to the Hadiths. I mean is it really a God's messenger who raided caravans and preached Jihad towards non Muslims? There is so much hatred towards the kuffar in Qur'an, again correct me if im wrong, People of the Book i.e. Christians and Jews in Islam, are also kuffar...

Ive always believed that God is love, and you do come across a lot of love in the Bible, but when I read the Qur'an I didnt feel any love at all...it's based mainly on fear, no asking questions, and also if God has really given us a free will to sin or not to sin then why does Islamic Law say that apostates should be killed? Should not they then be Judged in the after life for changing their religion?Who are men to judge? Also, I also wondered why Qur'an is so repetitive? I mean you can come across the same stories and the same verses so many times in the book over and over again...I think if the same stories had not been repeated themselves, the book would have been a lot smaller,too.

Anjem Choudary (The UK's leader of Sharia for UK campaign) said himself that Islam is not a religion of peace...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eoHMicqnz8
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 05:01:50 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2014, 12:53:49 AM »

The Islamic conception of God is not of the highest conceivable being, as he is in Christianity. Islam also denies the death and resurrection of Christ. There are several debates on Youtube featuring people like William Lane Craig (my favorite Evangelical Apologist) debating Muslims. See also the debates with James White.

The Islamic view that Jesus never died on the cross, goes against the consensus of all of modern scholarship. Jesus' death on the cross is considered an historical fact by about 100 percent of New Testament scholars, whether they are conservative or liberal. Islam takes a non-historical approach, which is ludicrous. Also, the Journal of American Medical Society did a study and confirmed in 1985 that Jesus did in fact die by crucifixion. For more on this, read, "The Case For the Resurrection of Jesus," by Habermas and Licona.

Well.........

It should be known that placing faith in most of the writings of the NT are not a determing factor of being a Christian of getting into heaven. Forma long tome know schollars have known there are many inserted stories that prove likely not to have happened (and most are in John unfortunetly as that Gospel has been an age old problem child for church amd theologans alike).

Whether Jesus died on the cross at that time specifically, or later on is splitting haris and isnt important to the schollar or someone that knows faith very well. But these evangelicals of late have made the whole NT infallible and it was NEVER supposed to be like that. The names of the boos are called 'the gospels ACCORDING to ___'. Now if you try to derive a meaning from a story and you arent absolute literal, people get all emotional and angry. This is a sign people are holding on to idols. Why? Infallibility LEADS TO Idoltary.

So since I know I cant even discuss a topic which has nothing to do in the greater scheme of things, I can say, that for Christianity to have spread the way it did, he must have risen and seen his appostles. They must have been freaked out. We're living proof that Jesus rose from the dead.

Now the question of whether he really didnt die doesn't change anything exept put a lot of egg on our face and change around our view of the story. Does this make Jesus a sinner because he lied? No ot doesnt. The Torrah says nothing about lying. Its only if you lie to sin. If someone asks you for money, you are allowed to lie and say 'oh i dont have any money right now'.

Anyhow I wont finish because people get emotional over this and i could go on and on but it doesnt make him a sinner, doesnt change the fact he was the Messiah, a prophet like Abraham, Moses, and a sinnless 'son' of God. The reserection was required for 2.5 billion people later to become Christians. We know that must have happened. But was he really dead and his body vanished and reapeared, well thats a small technicality. But it does lead people to say he was God himself, which opens up a whole HUGE can of worms which we're still dealing with.
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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2014, 01:05:43 PM »


Correct me if Im wrong but prophet Muhammad was a warrior. Initially, he preached Islam peacefully to Meccan pagans,Christians and Jews and when they did not convert all he used force to conquer Mecca and Medina. Muslims used to pray in the direction of Jerusalem, but when Jews did not convert, Muhammad changed the prayer direction towards the Kaaba, the most Holy place of then- pagans.Muhammad also expanded his wealth by raiding caravans and also ordered to kill a few people because they offended him in some way or another as according to the Hadiths. I mean is it really a God's messenger who raided caravans and preached Jihad towards non Muslims? There is so much hatred towards the kuffar in Qur'an, again correct me if im wrong, People of the Book i.e. Christians and Jews in Islam, are also kuffar...



Sounds about right...   Mohammed is the sole author of the Koran claiming he was given this revelation by one of Allah's Angels...    OTOH, the Bible is a compilation of numerous authors who for the most part agree on their written accounts of Christ's life. 
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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2014, 01:34:04 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
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« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2014, 01:50:16 PM »

So to what does this verse refer to, then?
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« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2014, 01:52:11 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”

The problem with that, is that the idea that Arabs are Ishmaelites (from my understanding anyway) originated with al-Tabari in the 9th century. Al-Tabari based his genealogy on a completely fabricated and baseless chain of events. The historicity of whether the Arabs are related to the Hagarites/Ishmaelites is very weak.
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« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2014, 01:58:33 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?
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« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2014, 02:08:21 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
The historicity of whether the Arabs are related to the Hagarites/Ishmaelites is very weak.
Undoubtedly, but Ishmael's 12 sons are associated with northern Arabian regions, like Havilah (Gen. 25:9-8).

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« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2014, 02:12:03 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
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« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2014, 02:34:23 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
so what religion were they then, Jews?And what are they now, Muslims right?
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« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2014, 02:39:00 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
so what religion were they then, Jews?And what are they now, Muslims right?
They weren't ethnically Jews, because they weren't sons of Jacob/Israel. They were ethnically "Abrahamites". Religiously, at the time, they may have worshipped the same deity Abraham worshipped. Today, their descendants are probably mostly Muslim.
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« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2014, 03:37:23 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
so what religion were they then, Jews?And what are they now, Muslims right?
They weren't ethnically Jews, because they weren't sons of Jacob/Israel. They were ethnically "Abrahamites". Religiously, at the time, they may have worshipped the same deity Abraham worshipped. Today, their descendants are probably mostly Muslim.
So, they could have been so called Hanifs then...Also, if what you are saying is true then Muslims have really been prophesied as a "great nation" in the Old Testament?
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« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2014, 03:53:42 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
so what religion were they then, Jews?And what are they now, Muslims right?
They weren't ethnically Jews, because they weren't sons of Jacob/Israel. They were ethnically "Abrahamites". Religiously, at the time, they may have worshipped the same deity Abraham worshipped. Today, their descendants are probably mostly Muslim.
So, they could have been so called Hanifs then...Also, if what you are saying is true then Muslims have really been prophesied as a "great nation" in the Old Testament?
True, they could be called Hanifs. I think it is a distinct possibility that the Islamic phenomenon was prophesied in the Old Testament.
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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2014, 04:06:32 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
so what religion were they then, Jews?And what are they now, Muslims right?
They weren't ethnically Jews, because they weren't sons of Jacob/Israel. They were ethnically "Abrahamites". Religiously, at the time, they may have worshipped the same deity Abraham worshipped. Today, their descendants are probably mostly Muslim.
So, they could have been so called Hanifs then...Also, if what you are saying is true then Muslims have really been prophesied as a "great nation" in the Old Testament?
True, they could be called Hanifs. I think it is a distinct possibility that the Islamic phenomenon was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Wow, so there is a good possibility our Creator has really intended to create three biggest religions who had got three different views on Abrahamic religion?
But that would mean that the Prophet Muhammad was actually God's sent messenger??
If that's the case, then it may sound unfair then to give the order to Muslims to fight their brothers i.e. Jews and Christians...this sounds too complicated.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 04:28:44 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2014, 04:22:27 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
so what religion were they then, Jews?And what are they now, Muslims right?
They weren't ethnically Jews, because they weren't sons of Jacob/Israel. They were ethnically "Abrahamites". Religiously, at the time, they may have worshipped the same deity Abraham worshipped. Today, their descendants are probably mostly Muslim.
So, they could have been so called Hanifs then...Also, if what you are saying is true then Muslims have really been prophesied as a "great nation" in the Old Testament?
True, they could be called Hanifs. I think it is a distinct possibility that the Islamic phenomenon was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Wow, so there is a good possibility our Creator has really intended to create three biggest religions who had got three different views on Abraham religions?
But that would mean that the Prophet Muhammad was actually God's sent messenger??
If that's the case, then it may sounds unfair then to give the order to Muslims to fight their brothers i.e. Jews and Christians...this sounds too complicated.
I would distinguish these two ideas, as not being identical: (1) the Islamic phenomenon being prophesied in the OT; and (2) God inspiring the prophet Muhammad. The first could be true, without the second being true.
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« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2014, 04:29:54 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
so what religion were they then, Jews?And what are they now, Muslims right?
They weren't ethnically Jews, because they weren't sons of Jacob/Israel. They were ethnically "Abrahamites". Religiously, at the time, they may have worshipped the same deity Abraham worshipped. Today, their descendants are probably mostly Muslim.
So, they could have been so called Hanifs then...Also, if what you are saying is true then Muslims have really been prophesied as a "great nation" in the Old Testament?
True, they could be called Hanifs. I think it is a distinct possibility that the Islamic phenomenon was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Wow, so there is a good possibility our Creator has really intended to create three biggest religions who had got three different views on Abraham religions?
But that would mean that the Prophet Muhammad was actually God's sent messenger??
If that's the case, then it may sounds unfair then to give the order to Muslims to fight their brothers i.e. Jews and Christians...this sounds too complicated.
I would distinguish these two ideas, as not being identical: (1) the Islamic phenomenon being prophesied in the OT; and (2) God inspiring the prophet Muhammad. The first could be true, without the second being true.
Yes, but God referred to Muslims as a GREAT nation...
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« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2014, 04:39:07 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
so what religion were they then, Jews?And what are they now, Muslims right?
They weren't ethnically Jews, because they weren't sons of Jacob/Israel. They were ethnically "Abrahamites". Religiously, at the time, they may have worshipped the same deity Abraham worshipped. Today, their descendants are probably mostly Muslim.
So, they could have been so called Hanifs then...Also, if what you are saying is true then Muslims have really been prophesied as a "great nation" in the Old Testament?
True, they could be called Hanifs. I think it is a distinct possibility that the Islamic phenomenon was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Wow, so there is a good possibility our Creator has really intended to create three biggest religions who had got three different views on Abraham religions?
But that would mean that the Prophet Muhammad was actually God's sent messenger??
If that's the case, then it may sounds unfair then to give the order to Muslims to fight their brothers i.e. Jews and Christians...this sounds too complicated.
I would distinguish these two ideas, as not beingmpor identical: (1) the Islamic phenomenon being prophesied in the OT; and (2) God inspiring the prophet Muhammad. The first could be true, without the second being true.
Yes, but God referred to Muslims as a GREAT nation...

Hmm... The word in Hebrew can mean both.
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« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2014, 04:39:58 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
so what religion were they then, Jews?And what are they now, Muslims right?
They weren't ethnically Jews, because they weren't sons of Jacob/Israel. They were ethnically "Abrahamites". Religiously, at the time, they may have worshipped the same deity Abraham worshipped. Today, their descendants are probably mostly Muslim.
So, they could have been so called Hanifs then...Also, if what you are saying is true then Muslims have really been prophesied as a "great nation" in the Old Testament?
True, they could be called Hanifs. I think it is a distinct possibility that the Islamic phenomenon was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Wow, so there is a good possibility our Creator has really intended to create three biggest religions who had got three different views on Abraham religions?
But that would mean that the Prophet Muhammad was actually God's sent messenger??
If that's the case, then it may sounds unfair then to give the order to Muslims to fight their brothers i.e. Jews and Christians...this sounds too complicated.
I would distinguish these two ideas, as not being identical: (1) the Islamic phenomenon being prophesied in the OT; and (2) God inspiring the prophet Muhammad. The first could be true, without the second being true.
Yes, but God referred to Muslims as a GREAT nation...
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
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« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2014, 04:54:18 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."
so what religion were they then, Jews?And what are they now, Muslims right?
They weren't ethnically Jews, because they weren't sons of Jacob/Israel. They were ethnically "Abrahamites". Religiously, at the time, they may have worshipped the same deity Abraham worshipped. Today, their descendants are probably mostly Muslim.
So, they could have been so called Hanifs then...Also, if what you are saying is true then Muslims have really been prophesied as a "great nation" in the Old Testament?
True, they could be called Hanifs. I think it is a distinct possibility that the Islamic phenomenon was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Wow, so there is a good possibility our Creator has really intended to create three biggest religions who had got three different views on Abraham religions?
But that would mean that the Prophet Muhammad was actually God's sent messenger??
If that's the case, then it may sounds unfair then to give the order to Muslims to fight their brothers i.e. Jews and Christians...this sounds too complicated.
I would distinguish these two ideas, as not being identical: (1) the Islamic phenomenon being prophesied in the OT; and (2) God inspiring the prophet Muhammad. The first could be true, without the second being true.
Yes, but God referred to Muslims as a GREAT nation...
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
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« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2014, 05:02:02 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 05:02:23 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2014, 05:03:58 PM »

Yes, but God referred to Muslims as a GREAT nation...

This would be an anachronism as there were no Muslims at that time.

God only referred to Ishmael's descendants, regardless of their faith.  
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 05:04:24 PM by Theophilos78 » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2014, 05:04:35 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."

Hagar's decendents were a restless and troubled people......Gen. 16:11-12

Once again the Angel of the Lord said to her:
"Behold, you are with child and you shall bear a son.  You shall call his name Ishmael, for the lord has taken notice of your humiliation.  He shall be a rustic man, and his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him. He shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."
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« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2014, 05:05:59 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
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« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2014, 05:07:54 PM »

Yes, but God referred to Muslims as a GREAT nation...

This would be an anachronism as there were no Muslims at that time.

God only referred to Ishmael's descendants, regardless of their faith.  

Exactly, Hagar's offspring was a nation of ( "wonderers" nomads) Arabs not Muslims........Mohammed , not yet a Muslim himself, used Scriptures to design his Faith around Hagar.
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« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2014, 05:07:58 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?
That's similar to what's happening actually between the Muslims and non Muslims

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."

Hagar's decendents were a restless and troubled people......Gen. 16:11-12

Once again the Angel of the Lord said to her:
"Behold, you are with child and you shall bear a son.  You shall call his name Ishmael, for the lord has taken notice of your humiliation.  He shall be a rustic man, and his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him. He shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."
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« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2014, 05:08:27 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..

Yes, very much like Gog and Magog.  Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2014, 05:08:49 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.
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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2014, 05:11:01 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Have you read it?
There is too much violence, when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.
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« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2014, 05:11:36 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 05:16:02 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2014, 05:18:20 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.
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Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2014, 05:19:05 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
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« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2014, 05:20:45 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
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« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2014, 05:25:34 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.
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« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2014, 05:26:16 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.

Ive compiled my own list of violent verses,but this one is more comprehensive...http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.
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« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2014, 05:26:47 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.


Ive compiled my own list of violent verses,but this one is more comprehensive...http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran
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« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2014, 05:27:40 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.

So, are you saying that Prophet Muhammad taught the same God's message that our Dear Lord Jesus Christ had taught?
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« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2014, 05:28:52 PM »

Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature)
Post-menopausal women also have 'no courses'.

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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2014, 05:29:37 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.

So, are you saying that Prophet Muhammad taught the same God's message that our Dear Lord Jesus Christ had taught?
No, the messages are a bit different.
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2014, 05:30:15 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.


Ive compiled my own list of violent verses,but this one is more comprehensive...http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran
The link says: "403 - Forbidden: Access is denied.
You do not have permission to view this directory or page using the credentials that you supplied."
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2014, 05:32:34 PM »

Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature)
Post-menopausal women also have 'no courses'.


Post-menopausal women also have 'no courses'- yes which is the 1st part of the verse "women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months," whereas the 2nd part is about "immature" women...this verse is taken from Quran.com
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« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2014, 05:33:06 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.

So, are you saying that Prophet Muhammad taught the same God's message that our Dear Lord Jesus Christ had taught?
No, the messages are a bit different.

A bit different?? I hope you are not serious...
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« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2014, 05:34:20 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.


Ive compiled my own list of violent verses,but this one is more comprehensive...http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran
The link says: "403 - Forbidden: Access is denied.
You do not have permission to view this directory or page using the credentials that you supplied."

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
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« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2014, 05:39:04 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.

I mean Muslims can't even greet non Muslims and wish them Peace Upon you...

"And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not initiate the greeting of salaam with the Jews and Christians, and when you meet them in the street, force them towards the narrowest part of it.” Narrated by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh, 2167 from the Hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah."... I can't understand how can this be a religion of peace?


« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 05:43:28 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2014, 05:44:06 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.

I mean Muslims can't even greet non Muslims and wish them Peace Upon you...

"And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not initiate the greeting of salaam with the Jews and Christians, and when you meet them in the street, force them towards the narrowest part of it.” Narrated by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh, 2167 from the Hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah."... I can't understand how can this be a religion of peace?




You might be worse than Luciferlover.
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« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2014, 05:46:21 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?
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« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2014, 05:47:11 PM »

....
Actually, God referred to the descendants of Ishmael a 'great nation'. The Arabs, if they are descended from Ishmael, would not necessarily be the only descendants of Ishmael.
Yes, you can say so, but it is a very close call to Muslims..
I see what you mean. I don't think it would be all that strange for God to call any group of people a 'great' nation, if such a group of people had -- or would have in the future -- a 'significant' role in history.
Only though this nation would embrace a quite violent scripture who will be harsh with their brothers of the Book and everyone else..
I don't find the Qur'an particularly violent.

Have you read it?
There is too much violence,revenge,and too much fear...I did not feel any love... when I read the Qur'an I made a lot of notes about the violent verses and hatred towards non Muslims,pagans, especially JEWS, the most hated nation according to Qur'an, and us, Christians..

 Violence and hatred is what put me off Islam when I studied it.

When I read Bible, especially the New Testament, there is so much love and kindness. I can't imagine that Christianity and Islam is about the same God..I prefer Christian God with all my heart.
The Qur'an is not a devotional text, like the New Testament. It's more of a legal text, like the Torah.

But isn't Qur'an a contradiction to our Christian faith? To what Jesus had taught us?
Most Christians would say yes, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a particularly violent text.

I mean Muslims can't even greet non Muslims and wish them Peace Upon you...

"And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not initiate the greeting of salaam with the Jews and Christians, and when you meet them in the street, force them towards the narrowest part of it.” Narrated by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh, 2167 from the Hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah."... I can't understand how can this be a religion of peace?




You might be worse than Luciferlover.

Who is that? I hope not!
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« Reply #76 on: February 13, 2014, 06:10:40 PM »


Who is that? I hope not!

Suggestion: ignore everything said by crookednorm.
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« Reply #77 on: February 13, 2014, 06:12:11 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Yeah. More like commands and prohibitions than laws in a generic sense though.
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« Reply #78 on: February 13, 2014, 06:22:38 PM »


Who is that? I hope not!

Suggestion: ignore everything said by crookednorm.
Ok, thank you
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« Reply #79 on: February 13, 2014, 06:39:20 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
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« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2014, 06:41:15 PM »


Who is that? I hope not!

Suggestion: ignore everything said by crookednorm.
Ok, thank you

You are listening to someone who believes that Arab speaking Orthodox Christians are practicing idolatry, some unbeknownst to themselves other with intent I suppose after he has enlightened them.

Careful who you listen to.
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« Reply #81 on: February 13, 2014, 06:51:48 PM »


Who is that? I hope not!

Suggestion: ignore everything said by crookednorm.
Ok, thank you
Whatcreligion do you follow?

You are listening to someone who believes that Arab speaking Orthodox Christians are practicing idolatry, some unbeknownst to themselves other with intent I suppose after he has enlightened them.

Careful who you listen to.
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« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2014, 06:52:27 PM »


Who is that? I hope not!

Suggestion: ignore everything said by crookednorm.
Ok, thank you

You are listening to someone who believes that Arab speaking Orthodox Christians are practicing idolatry, some unbeknownst to themselves other with intent I suppose after he has enlightened them.

Careful who you listen to.
What religion do you follow?
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« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2014, 07:10:13 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.
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« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2014, 07:19:36 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.
One of the Hadeeth states that Muhammad was 57 when he married Aisha ( He had about 13 wives altogether if im correct), who was 6, and consummated the marriage when she was 9...Islamic teachings are not compatible with Jesus's teachings of morality IMHO..
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 07:23:28 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2014, 07:22:46 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.
One of the Hadeeth states that Muhammad was 57 when he married Aisha ( He had about 13 wives altogether if im correct), who was 6, and consummated the marriage when she was 9...Islamic teachings are not compatible with Jesus's teachings of morality IMHO..

What are your thoughts on this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmbuqjLkwNw
I don't bother with ahadith.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 07:23:09 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2014, 07:24:30 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.
One of the Hadeeth states that Muhammad was 57 when he married Aisha ( He had about 13 wives altogether if im correct), who was 6, and consummated the marriage when she was 9...Islamic teachings are not compatible with Jesus's teachings of morality IMHO..

What are your thoughts on this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmbuqjLkwNw
I don't bother with ahadith.
Please, ignore that youtube link, it's got swearing on it, dont want to be sharing that sort of material on here..
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« Reply #87 on: February 13, 2014, 07:29:18 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.
One of the Hadeeth states that Muhammad was 57 when he married Aisha ( He had about 13 wives altogether if im correct), who was 6, and consummated the marriage when she was 9...Islamic teachings are not compatible with Jesus's teachings of morality IMHO..

What are your thoughts on this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmbuqjLkwNw
I don't bother with ahadith.
Yes, it is best not to..
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« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2014, 07:33:09 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.

The difference is that Judaism does not say it allows to marry young girls, they did it because it was a custom then, but in Islamic teaching there is a specific verse which allows marrying extremely young girls...technically, a mature man can have up to 4 young wives who have not had their menstruations yet...so, this is normal?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 07:33:46 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2014, 07:38:11 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.
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Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2014, 07:44:58 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.
Also, Islam requires Judaism and Christianity to be false. It also requires a bipolar ('good vs evil) worldview. Buddhism isn't really based on this kind of stuff, kind of Existential.
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« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2014, 07:47:29 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.
Also, Islam requires Judaism and Christianity to be false. It also requires a bipolar ('good vs evil) worldview. Buddhism isn't really based on this kind of stuff, kind of Existential.

According to its Western shills, but no.
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« Reply #92 on: February 13, 2014, 07:49:14 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.

The difference is that Judaism does not say it allows to marry young girls, they did it because it was a custom then, but in Islamic teaching there is a specific verse which allows marrying extremely young girls...technically, a mature man can have up to 4 young wives who have not had their menstruations yet...so, this is normal?
The Torah sets no limit on the number of wives a man may have.

Regarding  marrying extremely young girls, the Torah itself apparently does not give a minimum age limit for marriage, and the Babylonian Talmud (regarded as Oral Torah by the Rabbis) allows a girl of age 3 to get married. Jews today, of course, reject this; and many Muslims today would also reject such child-marriages.
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Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2014, 07:51:13 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

I guess it is all more adolescent, though much good comes from adolescence. Just no one tell me another benefit from mindfulness.

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

You two are two of the non-idiots around here and I am not sure if I have ever asked you guys this.

If you want to know about Sufism, don't ask Romaios, cause you will be reading for 18 lifetimes.
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« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2014, 08:30:02 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.
Also, Islam requires Judaism and Christianity to be false. It also requires a bipolar ('good vs evil) worldview. Buddhism isn't really based on this kind of stuff, kind of Existential.

According to its Western shills, but no.

Uh... Yes.

Quote from: Reliance of the Traveller, w4.3, w4.4
Imam Baghawi said: "The Prophet said: 'By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad! Any person of this community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell.' (Sharh al-Sunna 1.104-5) ...

Ibn Kathir says: The faith of the Jews was that of whoever adhered to the Torah and the sunna (tradition) of Moses (peace be upon him) until the coming of Jesus. When Jesus came, whoever held to the Torah, and Sunna of Moses without giving them up and following Jesus, was lost.

The faith of the Christians was that whoever adhered to the gospel, and precepts of Jesus, their faith was valid and acceptable until the coming of Muhammad (Salla allahu alayhi wa salam). Those of them who did not follow Muhammad (sala allahu alayhi wa sallam) and give up the sunnah of Jesus and the gospel, were lost.

The foregoing evidence is not contradicted by the following verse:

"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve." (Koran 2:62)

was followed by Allah revealing:

"And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers." (Qur'an 3:85)

... [the above] merely confirms that no one's way or spiritual works are acceptable unless they conform to the Sacred Law of Muhammad (Sala allahu alayi wa sallam) now that he has been sent with it. (Tafsir al-Qur'an al-Atheem, 1.103)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 08:38:18 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2014, 08:53:29 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

I guess it is all more adolescent, though much good comes from adolescence. Just no one tell me another benefit from mindfulness.

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

You two are two of the non-idiots around here and I am not sure if I have ever asked you guys this.

If you want to know about Sufism, don't ask Romaios, cause you will be reading for 18 lifetimes.
I would suggest Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, by Chogyam Trungpa.

From an online excerpt: "Although the Buddhist way is not theistic it does not contradict the theistic disciplines."
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 08:57:49 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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« Reply #96 on: February 13, 2014, 11:24:36 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

I guess it is all more adolescent, though much good comes from adolescence. Just no one tell me another benefit from mindfulness.

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

You two are two of the non-idiots around here and I am not sure if I have ever asked you guys this.

If you want to know about Sufism, don't ask Romaios, cause you will be reading for 18 lifetimes.
I would suggest Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, by Chogyam Trungpa.

From an online excerpt: "Although the Buddhist way is not theistic it does not contradict the theistic disciplines."

Darn, I've already read that once and looked back at it a few times.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 11:24:45 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #97 on: February 13, 2014, 11:26:08 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.
Also, Islam requires Judaism and Christianity to be false. It also requires a bipolar ('good vs evil) worldview. Buddhism isn't really based on this kind of stuff, kind of Existential.

According to its Western shills, but no.

Uh... Yes.

Quote from: Reliance of the Traveller, w4.3, w4.4
Imam Baghawi said: "The Prophet said: 'By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad! Any person of this community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell.' (Sharh al-Sunna 1.104-5) ...

Ibn Kathir says: The faith of the Jews was that of whoever adhered to the Torah and the sunna (tradition) of Moses (peace be upon him) until the coming of Jesus. When Jesus came, whoever held to the Torah, and Sunna of Moses without giving them up and following Jesus, was lost.

The faith of the Christians was that whoever adhered to the gospel, and precepts of Jesus, their faith was valid and acceptable until the coming of Muhammad (Salla allahu alayhi wa salam). Those of them who did not follow Muhammad (sala allahu alayhi wa sallam) and give up the sunnah of Jesus and the gospel, were lost.

The foregoing evidence is not contradicted by the following verse:

"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve." (Koran 2:62)

was followed by Allah revealing:

"And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers." (Qur'an 3:85)

... [the above] merely confirms that no one's way or spiritual works are acceptable unless they conform to the Sacred Law of Muhammad (Sala allahu alayi wa sallam) now that he has been sent with it. (Tafsir al-Qur'an al-Atheem, 1.103)

What does your butchering of the Koran have to do with Buddhism?
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« Reply #98 on: February 13, 2014, 11:40:10 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.
Also, Islam requires Judaism and Christianity to be false. It also requires a bipolar ('good vs evil) worldview. Buddhism isn't really based on this kind of stuff, kind of Existential.

According to its Western shills, but no.

Uh... Yes.

Quote from: Reliance of the Traveller, w4.3, w4.4
Imam Baghawi said: "The Prophet said: 'By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad! Any person of this community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell.' (Sharh al-Sunna 1.104-5) ...

Ibn Kathir says: The faith of the Jews was that of whoever adhered to the Torah and the sunna (tradition) of Moses (peace be upon him) until the coming of Jesus. When Jesus came, whoever held to the Torah, and Sunna of Moses without giving them up and following Jesus, was lost.

The faith of the Christians was that whoever adhered to the gospel, and precepts of Jesus, their faith was valid and acceptable until the coming of Muhammad (Salla allahu alayhi wa salam). Those of them who did not follow Muhammad (sala allahu alayhi wa sallam) and give up the sunnah of Jesus and the gospel, were lost.

The foregoing evidence is not contradicted by the following verse:

"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve." (Koran 2:62)

was followed by Allah revealing:

"And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers." (Qur'an 3:85)

... [the above] merely confirms that no one's way or spiritual works are acceptable unless they conform to the Sacred Law of Muhammad (Sala allahu alayi wa sallam) now that he has been sent with it. (Tafsir al-Qur'an al-Atheem, 1.103)

What does your butchering of the Koran have to do with Buddhism?

lol Blame the book I was quoting, Reliance of the Traveller, for "butchering the Koran"
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« Reply #99 on: February 14, 2014, 05:45:40 AM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.

The difference is that Judaism does not say it allows to marry young girls, they did it because it was a custom then, but in Islamic teaching there is a specific verse which allows marrying extremely young girls...technically, a mature man can have up to 4 young wives who have not had their menstruations yet...so, this is normal?
The Torah sets no limit on the number of wives a man may have.

Regarding  marrying extremely young girls, the Torah itself apparently does not give a minimum age limit for marriage, and the Babylonian Talmud (regarded as Oral Torah by the Rabbis) allows a girl of age 3 to get married. Jews today, of course, reject this; and many Muslims today would also reject such child-marriages.
This sort of thing still on in conservative Islamic countries where you g girls ARE forced to marry older men..
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« Reply #100 on: February 14, 2014, 05:49:48 AM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.

The difference is that Judaism does not say it allows to marry young girls, they did it because it was a custom then, but in Islamic teaching there is a specific verse which allows marrying extremely young girls...technically, a mature man can have up to 4 young wives who have not had their menstruations yet...so, this is normal?
The Torah sets no limit on the number of wives a man may have.

Regarding  marrying extremely young girls, the Torah itself apparently does not give a minimum age limit for marriage, and the Babylonian Talmud (regarded as Oral Torah by the Rabbis) allows a girl of age 3 to get married. Jews today, of course, reject this; and many Muslims today would also reject such child-marriages.
Do you believe that Christians should follow Prophet Muhammad's teachings?
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« Reply #101 on: February 14, 2014, 08:17:46 AM »


Regarding  marrying extremely young girls, the Torah itself apparently does not give a minimum age limit for marriage,

You are arguing from silence now. The Torah does not saction child brides either.

and the Babylonian Talmud (regarded as Oral Torah by the Rabbis) allows a girl of age 3 to get married. Jews today, of course, reject this; and many Muslims today would also reject such child-marriages.

This is a false analogy since Muslims' prophet had a child bride.

Besides, Talmud cannot justify what Muhammad did or what his followers do today. Two wrongs do not make a right.
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« Reply #102 on: February 14, 2014, 09:13:16 AM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.
Also, Islam requires Judaism and Christianity to be false. It also requires a bipolar ('good vs evil) worldview. Buddhism isn't really based on this kind of stuff, kind of Existential.

According to its Western shills, but no.

Uh... Yes.

Quote from: Reliance of the Traveller, w4.3, w4.4
Imam Baghawi said: "The Prophet said: 'By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad! Any person of this community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell.' (Sharh al-Sunna 1.104-5) ...

Ibn Kathir says: The faith of the Jews was that of whoever adhered to the Torah and the sunna (tradition) of Moses (peace be upon him) until the coming of Jesus. When Jesus came, whoever held to the Torah, and Sunna of Moses without giving them up and following Jesus, was lost.

The faith of the Christians was that whoever adhered to the gospel, and precepts of Jesus, their faith was valid and acceptable until the coming of Muhammad (Salla allahu alayhi wa salam). Those of them who did not follow Muhammad (sala allahu alayhi wa sallam) and give up the sunnah of Jesus and the gospel, were lost.

The foregoing evidence is not contradicted by the following verse:

"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve." (Koran 2:62)

was followed by Allah revealing:

"And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers." (Qur'an 3:85)

... [the above] merely confirms that no one's way or spiritual works are acceptable unless they conform to the Sacred Law of Muhammad (Sala allahu alayi wa sallam) now that he has been sent with it. (Tafsir al-Qur'an al-Atheem, 1.103)

What does your butchering of the Koran have to do with Buddhism?

lol Blame the book I was quoting, Reliance of the Traveller, for "butchering the Koran"

Anyway, I've been to a Buddhist temple before, have read Buddhist literature and have taken classes on Buddhism; if that counts for something. Won't claim to be an expert though.

And if I find that I don't quite like what Christianity has to offer, it'd be my next choice.
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« Reply #103 on: February 14, 2014, 10:06:53 AM »


Regarding  marrying extremely young girls, the Torah itself apparently does not give a minimum age limit for marriage,

You are arguing from silence now. The Torah does not saction child brides either.

and the Babylonian Talmud (regarded as Oral Torah by the Rabbis) allows a girl of age 3 to get married. Jews today, of course, reject this; and many Muslims today would also reject such child-marriages.

This is a false analogy since Muslims' prophet had a child bride.

Besides, Talmud cannot justify what Muhammad did or what his followers do today. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Absolutely spot on.If Torah doesn't specifically prohibit it, it does it mean it's allowed.Muslims are not allowed to drink alcohol but I know a few smoke weed, because it's not specifically forbidden,so if it's not forbidden then taking drugs are OK? Qur'an specifically allows immature girls to be married.
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« Reply #104 on: February 14, 2014, 11:01:42 AM »

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

Assuming you already know the bare basics about Buddhism (Four Noble Truths, etc.), I found that Yin Shun's book The Way to Buddhahood offers a pretty comprehensive, systematic overview of the complete Mahayana teaching as it developed in China. Mind you, it is very flat-footed in its approach but it is BS-free.
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« Reply #105 on: February 14, 2014, 11:51:39 AM »

Do you believe that Christians should follow Prophet Muhammad's teachings?

Better to follow Lord Krishna. 
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« Reply #106 on: February 14, 2014, 12:09:43 PM »

Do you believe that Christians should follow Prophet Muhammad's teachings?

Better to follow Lord Krishna. 
Yeah, yeah I remind myself this is still a Christian site..
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« Reply #107 on: February 14, 2014, 12:43:37 PM »

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

Assuming you already know the bare basics about Buddhism (Four Noble Truths, etc.), I found that Yin Shun's book The Way to Buddhahood offers a pretty comprehensive, systematic overview of the complete Mahayana teaching as it developed in China. Mind you, it is very flat-footed in its approach but it is BS-free.

In the little I've read about Buddhism outside the typical religion for capitalists we get in the West by horrible humans like Suzuki, what I thought most interesting in the basics were the three or four seals. 

I think Jetavans suggestion is a great suggestion for anyone who cares about spiritual stuff as it is one of the more cogent critiques of the hazards of such caring.

Thanks for the suggestion!
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« Reply #108 on: February 14, 2014, 04:25:10 PM »

Never mind Smiley
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« Reply #109 on: February 15, 2014, 06:15:56 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."

Hagar's decendents were a restless and troubled people......Gen. 16:11-12

Once again the Angel of the Lord said to her:
"Behold, you are with child and you shall bear a son.  You shall call his name Ishmael, for the lord has taken notice of your humiliation.  He shall be a rustic man, and his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him. He shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

BINGO!

Do you see how REAL the Bible is now? I'm glad some of you decided to look into this. God is watching you and you are now at a new level of faith and closer towards God. This new level of faith will radiate outwards from you and actually change your outlook closer to how God would like it. Thats how important this is.

Ishmael was a child that was born from Abraham with a sergate mother.. An Egyptian woman. Later, God decided to give Abrahams real wife a child. So the wife decided to cast Hagar and Ishmael away from the tribe.

They set out alone in the dessert. God fealt bad and come down and blessed Ishmael. The place he came down to help them is supposedly Mecca as we know it today. Thats what they say anyway.

Here's what really happened. God had a covenant to pass down. He did NOT see righteousness in Ishmael, or Sarah for that matter. Remember Isaac later on has a rightous wife. We're talking about lineage here.

So God gave Sarah the baby Isaac which was likely a divinely inspired child and not an egyptian. Later on, God saw that he was righteous and hands down the covenant to Abraham and Isaac. Who is NOT there? Ishmael.

This is where the problems start. Because theres an argument which states that only the the father got it, thus it applies to all sons. The other states that it was handed to Abraham and Isaac exclusively.

Many here on the forum, are REAL SONS of Abraham and Isaac. These arent facticious characters and its not a joke. I'm being absolutely serious and believe we will be alive to see the day the DNA will be able to prove the tribe links. Its scary what is going on in that field right now.

If you arent a real son of Abraham and Isaac, then when you are baptised, you become a 'convert' and become a spiritual son of Abraham and Issac which is the same thing and valid with the Bible. Bet ya didnt know that. Its important all of us fall under this lineage for other reasons that I wont get into.

What makes Islam the will of God is very simple: God blessed them. We are living proof that Mohammad must have been something 'special' 1.5 billion people later. Was Mohammad (peace be upon him haha just kidding)  a prophet? At this point in my life and with my knowledge od Islam and my gowing fear of God, i'd say it's possible.

God knows the sons of Ishmael better than we do. The things Mohammad did attracts 'those people'. We might not be able to understand it, but God could have demanded at a certain point that they begin to worship Him, but knew it would take to get them to comply. Mohammad came and did the impossible in my eyes.

The big question is, what would happen if they did NOT become an Islamic? Then I believe the Germans iwould be sitting on that land taking all the oil. But God blessed them with the oil. All this was predicted thousands of years befor Islam even came about or you could do something like drill for oil.

Does God WANT us to intermix with Muslims and live together? NO. they need to stay to their own, we need to stay to ours. Intermixing is essentially secular humanism which God is very apposed to. So just because they were blessed and God allowed them to have Islam, it doesnt mean that our nations should become one nation. The Tower of Babel story demonstrates this as well as many others.

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« Reply #110 on: February 15, 2014, 06:15:56 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.

Buddism and all other 'religions' are based on 'Selfish Motivation'.
Islam, Judaism, and Chrstianity are based on 'Selfless Motivation'.

Big difference. Also the majority od Muslims are God fearing monotheists who are not part of suicide/jihad cults. The women cover their heads. They are wives, mothers. The divorce rate is very low. They have kids and happy families. Feminism has not destroyed their religion.

Personally, I now consider them family.. Like cousins. A cousin is someone you know, but you can make an excuse saying you dont want them to come to your house. They can look for somewhere else to stay. Jews to me are like brothers. If they ask to come to my house, I will open the door. Many will ask them to leave, but those are the non believers who dont believe in family. This paragraph is direved directly from Biblical teachings. Youd be amazed what they say about Jews and Israel. Its unreal how they were able to prohesy all this.
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« Reply #111 on: February 15, 2014, 06:15:57 PM »


I would suggest Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, by Chogyam Trungpa.

I would suggest not to (unless of course you are 'advanced and confident' in your spiritual 'knowledge' and theology).

Quote
From an online excerpt: "Although the Buddhist way is not theistic it does not contradict the theistic disciplines."

Yes it does depending on how you define words (which is what man-made Idol worship always comes down to - word definitions and meanings that loop into having no meaning).

When you look into your own self for answers or peace, you no longer have a need for God. You turn your back on him, he turns his back on you. When you turn back to him, he'll turn back to you. God allows this for 'those people' in those nations to partake in this Idolatry for a reason, it is not kosher and permitted for us to partake in that kind of Idolatry.

We are also not permitted to practice yoga and especially hum or chant. You can strech, but never meditate. It's best to stay away or take a 'kosher' type of yoga with no spiritual aspect. Any kind of meditative channeling is forbidden for laypersons. Attempting to contact the head is forbidden also.

Note: While channeling/meditating to Jahova is is legitimate and very real, it is certainly way out of our realm as laypersons and even most priests. If we try and try eventually spirits will 'intercept' and we will eventually get cursed. This can last a life so laypeople should not try this. The Pope spends 3 hours each morning praying and meditating. Maybe he can channel to God, we'll never know. God does speak to leaders of religious hierarchy. He may be relaying messages to the Pope that we'll never know simply how deep it runs or how close he is to God. Imagine being in his position and meditating to Jehovah. Image all of a sudden seeing images, flashes of things. Voices. Maybe even direct messages on some occasions. We'll never know. That is certainly knowledge that is within the Vatican which is not very good for laypersons.
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« Reply #112 on: February 16, 2014, 08:43:52 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.

The difference is that Judaism does not say it allows to marry young girls, they did it because it was a custom then, but in Islamic teaching there is a specific verse which allows marrying extremely young girls...technically, a mature man can have up to 4 young wives who have not had their menstruations yet...so, this is normal?
The Torah sets no limit on the number of wives a man may have.

Regarding  marrying extremely young girls, the Torah itself apparently does not give a minimum age limit for marriage, and the Babylonian Talmud (regarded as Oral Torah by the Rabbis) allows a girl of age 3 to get married. Jews today, of course, reject this; and many Muslims today would also reject such child-marriages.
Do you believe that Christians should follow Prophet Muhammad's teachings?
Christians should follow Christ.
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« Reply #113 on: February 16, 2014, 08:56:45 PM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

I guess it is all more adolescent, though much good comes from adolescence. Just no one tell me another benefit from mindfulness.

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

You two are two of the non-idiots around here and I am not sure if I have ever asked you guys this.

If you want to know about Sufism, don't ask Romaios, cause you will be reading for 18 lifetimes.
I would suggest Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, by Chogyam Trungpa.

From an online excerpt: "Although the Buddhist way is not theistic it does not contradict the theistic disciplines."

Darn, I've already read that once and looked back at it a few times.
Trungpa's recently published three-volumed teachings on "Hinayana", Mahayana, and Vajrayana (The Path of Individual Liberation; The Bodhisattva Path of Wisdom and Compassion; and The Tantric Path of Indestructible Wakefulness) look very good, too.
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« Reply #114 on: February 16, 2014, 09:04:36 PM »

I also find it quite immoral...i.e. having 4 wives, and Qur'an 65:4 with regards to matters of divorce :"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. "
So, this verse is saying it's ok to marry and divorce young girls who have not even reached puberty...really?
Puberty usually begins about 2 years before menstruation. So, if the verse is translated as you say, the verse is saying that marriage before menstruation (not necessarily before puberty) is allowed. In the ancient world, this was not rare. Jewish law allows girls as young as 12 (which might be before menstruation) to marry.

The difference is that Judaism does not say it allows to marry young girls, they did it because it was a custom then, but in Islamic teaching there is a specific verse which allows marrying extremely young girls...technically, a mature man can have up to 4 young wives who have not had their menstruations yet...so, this is normal?
The Torah sets no limit on the number of wives a man may have.

Regarding  marrying extremely young girls, the Torah itself apparently does not give a minimum age limit for marriage, and the Babylonian Talmud (regarded as Oral Torah by the Rabbis) allows a girl of age 3 to get married. Jews today, of course, reject this; and many Muslims today would also reject such child-marriages.
Do you believe that Christians should follow Prophet Muhammad's teachings?
Christians should follow Christ.
Agree,so should Muslims and everyone else
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« Reply #115 on: February 17, 2014, 10:11:06 AM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

I guess it is all more adolescent, though much good comes from adolescence. Just no one tell me another benefit from mindfulness.

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

You two are two of the non-idiots around here and I am not sure if I have ever asked you guys this.

If you want to know about Sufism, don't ask Romaios, cause you will be reading for 18 lifetimes.
I would suggest Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, by Chogyam Trungpa.

From an online excerpt: "Although the Buddhist way is not theistic it does not contradict the theistic disciplines."

Darn, I've already read that once and looked back at it a few times.
Trungpa's recently published three-volumed teachings on "Hinayana", Mahayana, and Vajrayana (The Path of Individual Liberation; The Bodhisattva Path of Wisdom and Compassion; and The Tantric Path of Indestructible Wakefulness) look very good, too.
Trungpa might be too Tibeto-centric. From a Theravada perspective, I would suggest the classic The Buddha and His Teachings, by Narada Mahathera.
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« Reply #116 on: February 17, 2014, 11:38:00 AM »

So, if I understand this correctly, the Koran is more like a list of laws much like the OT Israelites ie do A, B, C, D, etc and you will get your just rewards.?  Pharisaical  perhaps?

Not really. You could just read it. It really is closer to the religion that most Christians follow than Christianity, including the Odox I've met.

What I would like someone to explain to me: why the western turn toward Buddhism when you have such a middle of the road religion Islam in the West?

Of course Islam shaped a lot of Christian thought, thus allowing people to enjoy its moderating affects on Christianity if they are willing to ignore the Bible and early Christians, which most Christians are happy to do, but why did people go to Buddha, when if you opt for the Quaranist position in Islam you are in more familiar, perhaps that is it. Islam wasn't exotic enough.
Many Americans are attracted to Buddhism's non-theistic perspective. Islam would just offer more theism.

I guess it is all more adolescent, though much good comes from adolescence. Just no one tell me another benefit from mindfulness.

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

You two are two of the non-idiots around here and I am not sure if I have ever asked you guys this.

If you want to know about Sufism, don't ask Romaios, cause you will be reading for 18 lifetimes.
I would suggest Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, by Chogyam Trungpa.

From an online excerpt: "Although the Buddhist way is not theistic it does not contradict the theistic disciplines."

Darn, I've already read that once and looked back at it a few times.
Trungpa's recently published three-volumed teachings on "Hinayana", Mahayana, and Vajrayana (The Path of Individual Liberation; The Bodhisattva Path of Wisdom and Compassion; and The Tantric Path of Indestructible Wakefulness) look very good, too.
Trungpa might be too Tibeto-centric. From a Theravada perspective, I would suggest the classic The Buddha and His Teachings, by Narada Mahathera.

Thanks.
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« Reply #117 on: February 17, 2014, 11:42:12 AM »

Hey, if you (and Iconodule) had to suggest one book about Buddhism, by a Buddhist, etc. that is readily available in (wow Chrome just crashed and it saved my reply) English, what would you suggest.

Assuming you already know the bare basics about Buddhism (Four Noble Truths, etc.), I found that Yin Shun's book The Way to Buddhahood offers a pretty comprehensive, systematic overview of the complete Mahayana teaching as it developed in China. Mind you, it is very flat-footed in its approach but it is BS-free.

I found an electronic copy last night and scanned it. Looks like I am going to have to buy it.
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« Reply #118 on: February 17, 2014, 05:35:35 PM »

....
Would you please tell us which part of the Old Testament you think "predicts" Islam?  Thank you.
He probably is referring to Genesis 21:17-18:

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Biblically, which nation is this verse referred to?

Genesis 25:13-18:

"This is the account of the family line of Abraham’s son Ishmael, whom Sarah’s slave, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them."

Hagar's decendents were a restless and troubled people......Gen. 16:11-12

Once again the Angel of the Lord said to her:
"Behold, you are with child and you shall bear a son.  You shall call his name Ishmael, for the lord has taken notice of your humiliation.  He shall be a rustic man, and his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him. He shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

BINGO!

Do you see how REAL the Bible is now? I'm glad some of you decided to look into this. God is watching you and you are now at a new level of faith and closer towards God. This new level of faith will radiate outwards from you and actually change your outlook closer to how God would like it. Thats how important this is.

Ishmael was a child that was born from Abraham with a sergate mother.. An Egyptian woman. Later, God decided to give Abrahams real wife a child. So the wife decided to cast Hagar and Ishmael away from the tribe.

They set out alone in the dessert. God fealt bad and come down and blessed Ishmael. The place he came down to help them is supposedly Mecca as we know it today. Thats what they say anyway.

Here's what really happened. God had a covenant to pass down. He did NOT see righteousness in Ishmael, or Sarah for that matter. Remember Isaac later on has a rightous wife. We're talking about lineage here.

So God gave Sarah the baby Isaac which was likely a divinely inspired child and not an egyptian. Later on, God saw that he was righteous and hands down the covenant to Abraham and Isaac. Who is NOT there? Ishmael.

This is where the problems start. Because theres an argument which states that only the the father got it, thus it applies to all sons. The other states that it was handed to Abraham and Isaac exclusively.

Many here on the forum, are REAL SONS of Abraham and Isaac. These arent facticious characters and its not a joke. I'm being absolutely serious and believe we will be alive to see the day the DNA will be able to prove the tribe links. Its scary what is going on in that field right now.

If you arent a real son of Abraham and Isaac, then when you are baptised, you become a 'convert' and become a spiritual son of Abraham and Issac which is the same thing and valid with the Bible. Bet ya didnt know that. Its important all of us fall under this lineage for other reasons that I wont get into.

What makes Islam the will of God is very simple: God blessed them. We are living proof that Mohammad must have been something 'special' 1.5 billion people later. Was Mohammad (peace be upon him haha just kidding)  a prophet? At this point in my life and with my knowledge od Islam and my gowing fear of God, i'd say it's possible.

God knows the sons of Ishmael better than we do. The things Mohammad did attracts 'those people'. We might not be able to understand it, but God could have demanded at a certain point that they begin to worship Him, but knew it would take to get them to comply. Mohammad came and did the impossible in my eyes.

The big question is, what would happen if they did NOT become an Islamic? Then I believe the Germans iwould be sitting on that land taking all the oil. But God blessed them with the oil. All this was predicted thousands of years befor Islam even came about or you could do something like drill for oil.

Does God WANT us to intermix with Muslims and live together? NO. they need to stay to their own, we need to stay to ours. Intermixing is essentially secular humanism which God is very apposed to. So just because they were blessed and God allowed them to have Islam, it doesnt mean that our nations should become one nation. The Tower of Babel story demonstrates this as well as many others.


One nation? I dont think Muslims are allowed to live as one and equal nation with non Muslims, just look at Saudi Arabia Christianity is against the law like any other religion..
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« Reply #119 on: February 17, 2014, 05:37:26 PM »

....
One nation? I dont think Muslims are allowed to live as one and equal nation with non Muslims, just look at Saudi Arabia Christianity is against the law like any other religion..
Most American Muslims seem to be quite happy living in one nation, equal under the law, in the U.S.
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« Reply #120 on: February 17, 2014, 05:53:17 PM »

....
One nation? I dont think Muslims are allowed to live as one and equal nation with non Muslims, just look at Saudi Arabia Christianity is against the law like any other religion..
Most American Muslims seem to be quite happy living in one nation, equal under the law, in the U.S.
That's because overall, they are in a minority there, when they increase in numbers then they start to enforce their rules..one example is London..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519519/Muslim-Patrol-jailed-harassing-couple-holding-hands-men-drinking-bid-enforce-Sharia-law-East-London.html
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« Reply #121 on: February 17, 2014, 05:59:11 PM »

....
One nation? I dont think Muslims are allowed to live as one and equal nation with non Muslims, just look at Saudi Arabia Christianity is against the law like any other religion..
Most American Muslims seem to be quite happy living in one nation, equal under the law, in the U.S.
That's because overall, they are in a minority there, when they increase in numbers then they start to enforce their rules..one example is London..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519519/Muslim-Patrol-jailed-harassing-couple-holding-hands-men-drinking-bid-enforce-Sharia-law-East-London.html
The article indicates that the "Muslim Patrol" was inspired by an extremist, not your run-of-the-mill British imam.
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« Reply #122 on: February 17, 2014, 06:08:03 PM »

....
One nation? I dont think Muslims are allowed to live as one and equal nation with non Muslims, just look at Saudi Arabia Christianity is against the law like any other religion..
Most American Muslims seem to be quite happy living in one nation, equal under the law, in the U.S.
That's because overall, they are in a minority there, when they increase in numbers then they start to enforce their rules..one example is London..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519519/Muslim-Patrol-jailed-harassing-couple-holding-hands-men-drinking-bid-enforce-Sharia-law-East-London.html
The article indicates that the "Muslim Patrol" was inspired by an extremist, not your run-of-the-mill British imam.

The article is wrong. The major Islamic organizations in the UK and in the US are run by the Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan al-Muslimoon) organization.

Britain's Islamic Republic (2010)
Terrorists Among Us: Jihad in America (1994)

Things like this
happen in Islamic schools.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 06:09:44 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #123 on: February 17, 2014, 06:11:44 PM »

....
One nation? I dont think Muslims are allowed to live as one and equal nation with non Muslims, just look at Saudi Arabia Christianity is against the law like any other religion..
Most American Muslims seem to be quite happy living in one nation, equal under the law, in the U.S.
That's because overall, they are in a minority there, when they increase in numbers then they start to enforce their rules..one example is London..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519519/Muslim-Patrol-jailed-harassing-couple-holding-hands-men-drinking-bid-enforce-Sharia-law-East-London.html
The article indicates that the "Muslim Patrol" was inspired by an extremist, not your run-of-the-mill British imam.
This is only one of the many similar examples that happen here in the UK...we have big Sikh, Hindus,Jewish large communities they all live in peace,you never hear about any of these communities having extremists doing what Muslims extremists are doing.
Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/islamist-group-march-for-full-sharia-law-in-britain-6797021.html
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/extremist-muslims-to-march-for-sharia-law-243407
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« Reply #124 on: February 17, 2014, 06:20:21 PM »

Christians should follow Christ.

And how exactly do we do this?

This is the big question people want to know. I'm seriously asking you as I'd like to know myself.
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« Reply #125 on: February 17, 2014, 06:26:30 PM »

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??
Christians haven't done similarly?
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« Reply #126 on: February 17, 2014, 06:27:46 PM »

Christians should follow Christ.

And how exactly do we do this?

This is the big question people want to know. I'm seriously asking you as I'd like to know myself.

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=love+one+another&qs_version=DRA

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« Reply #127 on: February 17, 2014, 06:28:38 PM »

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??
Christians haven't done similarly?
You are a very kind person, a real Christian that's all I can say
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« Reply #128 on: February 17, 2014, 06:29:30 PM »

Christians should follow Christ.

And how exactly do we do this?

This is the big question people want to know. I'm seriously asking you as I'd like to know myself.
Pick up the Bible and read it, seriously best way
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« Reply #129 on: February 17, 2014, 06:29:49 PM »

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??
Christians haven't done similarly?

True.
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« Reply #130 on: February 17, 2014, 06:32:03 PM »

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??
Christians haven't done similarly?
Although you surprise me by defending Muslims more than Christians..
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« Reply #131 on: February 17, 2014, 06:57:41 PM »

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??
Christians haven't done similarly?
Do you see or hear about these "Christian patrols" or pro Christian marches in Islamic countries I.e.Saudi Arabia?Or Afganistan? Or Pakistan?etc They would be imprisoned,if not worse,should they do what Muslims do in Christian countries 
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« Reply #132 on: February 17, 2014, 07:01:07 PM »

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??
Christians haven't done similarly?
Do you see or hear about these "Christian patrols" or pro Christian marches in Islamic countries I.e.Saudi Arabia?Or Afganistan? Or Pakistan?etc They would be imprisoned,if not worse,should they do what Muslims do in Christian countries 

Secular countries.
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« Reply #133 on: February 17, 2014, 07:02:02 PM »

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??
Christians haven't done similarly?
Muslims countries are the most Christian persecuting, killings and oppressions are frequent occurances, 9 out of 10 most Christian persecuting countries in the world are Muslim countries and you think this is OK? http://m.christianpost.com/news/report-9-out-of-10-top-christian-persecution-countries-due-to-islamic-extremism--112255/
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« Reply #134 on: February 17, 2014, 07:06:44 PM »

I don't think he said it was okay.
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« Reply #135 on: February 18, 2014, 03:54:42 PM »

....
One nation? I dont think Muslims are allowed to live as one and equal nation with non Muslims, just look at Saudi Arabia Christianity is against the law like any other religion..
Most American Muslims seem to be quite happy living in one nation, equal under the law, in the U.S.
That's because overall, they are in a minority there, when they increase in numbers then they start to enforce their rules..one example is London..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519519/Muslim-Patrol-jailed-harassing-couple-holding-hands-men-drinking-bid-enforce-Sharia-law-East-London.html
The article indicates that the "Muslim Patrol" was inspired by an extremist, not your run-of-the-mill British imam.

The article is wrong. The major Islamic organizations in the UK and in the US are run by the Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan al-Muslimoon) organization.

Britain's Islamic Republic (2010)
Terrorists Among Us: Jihad in America (1994)

Things like this
happen in Islamic schools.
Any sources from print journals?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 03:55:56 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #136 on: February 18, 2014, 03:57:17 PM »

Christians should follow Christ.

And how exactly do we do this?
Love God and love your neighbor.
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Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Jetavan
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« Reply #137 on: February 18, 2014, 03:58:21 PM »

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??
Christians haven't done similarly?
Although you surprise me by defending Muslims more than Christians..
Both Muslims and Christians are human, full of imperfections and grand plans. No one is perfect.
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Jetavan
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« Reply #138 on: February 18, 2014, 04:01:05 PM »

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??
Christians haven't done similarly?
Muslims countries are the most Christian persecuting, killings and oppressions are frequent occurances, 9 out of 10 most Christian persecuting countries in the world are Muslim countries and you think this is OK? http://m.christianpost.com/news/report-9-out-of-10-top-christian-persecution-countries-due-to-islamic-extremism--112255/
Which case/example/policy of persecution do you think is the worse?
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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« Reply #139 on: February 18, 2014, 04:03:30 PM »

....
One nation? I dont think Muslims are allowed to live as one and equal nation with non Muslims, just look at Saudi Arabia Christianity is against the law like any other religion..
Most American Muslims seem to be quite happy living in one nation, equal under the law, in the U.S.
That's because overall, they are in a minority there, when they increase in numbers then they start to enforce their rules..one example is London..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519519/Muslim-Patrol-jailed-harassing-couple-holding-hands-men-drinking-bid-enforce-Sharia-law-East-London.html
The article indicates that the "Muslim Patrol" was inspired by an extremist, not your run-of-the-mill British imam.

The article is wrong. The major Islamic organizations in the UK and in the US are run by the Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan al-Muslimoon) organization.

Britain's Islamic Republic (2010)
Terrorists Among Us: Jihad in America (1994)

Things like this
happen in Islamic schools.
Any sources from print journals?

Court cases. Print journals handling Islam, in this PC culture? Naw.
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"[The Lord] shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3)
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« Reply #140 on: February 18, 2014, 04:27:32 PM »

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??
Christians haven't done similarly?
Muslims countries are the most Christian persecuting, killings and oppressions are frequent occurances, 9 out of 10 most Christian persecuting countries in the world are Muslim countries and you think this is OK? http://m.christianpost.com/news/report-9-out-of-10-top-christian-persecution-countries-due-to-islamic-extremism--112255/
Which case/example/policy of persecution do you think is the worse?
What do you mean? Please, elaborate
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andrewlya
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« Reply #141 on: February 18, 2014, 04:31:48 PM »

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??
Christians haven't done similarly?
Muslims countries are the most Christian persecuting, killings and oppressions are frequent occurances, 9 out of 10 most Christian persecuting countries in the world are Muslim countries and you think this is OK? http://m.christianpost.com/news/report-9-out-of-10-top-christian-persecution-countries-due-to-islamic-extremism--112255/
Which case/example/policy of persecution do you think is the worse?
You probably live somewhere where there are not many Muslims, where I live there is a lot and increasing and I can see things are changing around here...I would not like to see more Mosques than there are Churches, would you..
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Jetavan
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« Reply #142 on: February 18, 2014, 05:04:30 PM »

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??
Christians haven't done similarly?
Muslims countries are the most Christian persecuting, killings and oppressions are frequent occurances, 9 out of 10 most Christian persecuting countries in the world are Muslim countries and you think this is OK? http://m.christianpost.com/news/report-9-out-of-10-top-christian-persecution-countries-due-to-islamic-extremism--112255/
Which case/example/policy of persecution do you think is the worse?
You probably live somewhere where there are not many Muslims, where I live there is a lot and increasing and I can see things are changing around here...I would not like to see more Mosques than there are Churches, would you..
Depends upon the mosque...and the church. I wouldn't mind more Ismaili mosques; I'd prefer that over independent fundamental Baptist.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 05:06:51 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
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Barlaam and Josaphat


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« Reply #143 on: February 18, 2014, 05:05:22 PM »

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??
Christians haven't done similarly?
Muslims countries are the most Christian persecuting, killings and oppressions are frequent occurances, 9 out of 10 most Christian persecuting countries in the world are Muslim countries and you think this is OK? http://m.christianpost.com/news/report-9-out-of-10-top-christian-persecution-countries-due-to-islamic-extremism--112255/
Which case/example/policy of persecution do you think is the worse?
What do you mean? Please, elaborate
Which country has the most egregious, extreme, anti-Christian law, and what law is it?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
andrewlya
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« Reply #144 on: February 18, 2014, 05:46:04 PM »

Why Muslims is the only community that try to enforce their religion on people??
Christians haven't done similarly?
Muslims countries are the most Christian persecuting, killings and oppressions are frequent occurances, 9 out of 10 most Christian persecuting countries in the world are Muslim countries and you think this is OK? http://m.christianpost.com/news/report-9-out-of-10-top-christian-persecution-countries-due-to-islamic-extremism--112255/
Which case/example/policy of persecution do you think is the worse?
What do you mean? Please, elaborate
Which country has the most egregious, extreme, anti-Christian law, and what law is it?
There is a few, the main one i'd Say Saudi were no Churches are allowed to be built or cross is allowed to be worn and where Christians can get arrested even when worshiping in the privacy of their home..
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I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all the people
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