Author Topic: The hate of the New Atheists  (Read 3102 times)

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Offline lotharson

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The hate of the New Atheists
« on: January 24, 2014, 02:02:22 PM »
The New Atheists (also called anti-theists or militant atheists) are a particular group of atheists who advocate the use of emotional bullying, mockery and ridicule towards every religious believer.

I think we have strong grounds for concluding they are a hate group with a far right ideology.


We also have good evidence that they are people who have had a very bad (often traumatic) experience with religious fundamentalists.

Did you yourself had interactions with them?

If so, do you have advice to share about the best way to handle these bigots?


Friendly greetings from Europe.

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2014, 02:11:30 PM »
I know a pretty vocal atheist-we used to hang out but never talked religion. Anyways he's also a pretty old fashioned leftist (communist) so that mitigates some of his atheistic  zeal a bit , as today people most likely to respond to socialist propaganda are also some sort of religious believers .
As for the new atheists yes, they are virtually all supporters of the most inhuman varieties of capitalism.
Engage them with mockery, pointing out to the ivory tower it takes to sustain those beliefs. poor people aren't paragons of virtue and ascesis (thank God) but they aren't atheists either, since atheism tends to be a luxury good.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2014, 02:19:50 PM »
I've brought this up before, but you should really check out the findings in the book "Coming Apart" by Charles Murray. One really interesting finding is that church attendance has fallen most dramatically among the lower class in the US (he's looking only at whites). Now, church attendance is not the same as self-reported religious affiliation, but he does show that the stereotype of lower class people being more religious than upper class people is problematic.

EDIT: I should add that not only has lower class church attendance fallen more dramatically since the 1960s, but is also lower in absolute terms than middle or upper class attendance.

http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Not-Clinging-to-Religion-Thomas-Kidd-03-22-2012.html
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 02:22:57 PM by Jonathan Gress »

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2014, 02:26:12 PM »
I've brought this up before, but you should really check out the findings in the book "Coming Apart" by Charles Murray. One really interesting finding is that church attendance has fallen most dramatically among the lower class in the US (he's looking only at whites). Now, church attendance is not the same as self-reported religious affiliation, but he does show that the stereotype of lower class people being more religious than upper class people is problematic.
Yes, going to church regularly has little to do with one's belief in God. I'd never buy books written by self-described libertarians, but I'd pick it up from the dumpster were I to find it there.
The point was that consistent and vocal  atheism is more likely among people that are economically secure/privileged.
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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2014, 02:28:22 PM »
English is a second language for me, sorry for the misspellings.

Oh my, I had so much bad experience with Atheists, they mock you, insult you, think they are the only smart people on earth, and that you are stupid because you believe in God, and the list goes on and on. Their arrogance make me sick in the stomach. disgusting disgusting arrogance.

I gave up any discussions with Atheists, it is pointless, very pointless. Why talk to people think they are superior, why talk to people who are so hypocrite, mock you, insults you, and they expect you to shut up about it.

Also, they attack you because you use the Bible or Tradition to defend your faith, BUT hey, it is okay for them to use what Dawkins said in his The God Delusion book.

Okay, I better stop, because I have so much bad stories about discussions with Atheists, so I think you got my point.


« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 02:29:53 PM by Raylight »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2014, 02:30:15 PM »
Remember that politics should only be posted in the Politics subforum.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2014, 02:31:20 PM »
they mock you, insult you, think they are the only smart people on earth, and that you are stupid because you believe in [fill in any position]

Sounds like your average debate on just about everything.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 02:32:06 PM by Cyrillic »
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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2014, 02:32:01 PM »
Remember that politics should only be posted in the Politics subforum.
I don't think we've veered into politics yet. Just discussing the demographics of atheism.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2014, 02:33:15 PM »
Remember that politics should only be posted in the Politics subforum.
I don't think we've veered into politics yet. Just discussing the demographics of atheism.

It was just a friendly reminder.
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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2014, 02:34:31 PM »
they mock you, insult you, think they are the only smart people on earth, and that you are stupid because you believe in [fill in any position

Sounds like your average debate on just about everything.

Yep, you got it  ;)

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2014, 02:35:12 PM »
I've brought this up before, but you should really check out the findings in the book "Coming Apart" by Charles Murray. One really interesting finding is that church attendance has fallen most dramatically among the lower class in the US (he's looking only at whites). Now, church attendance is not the same as self-reported religious affiliation, but he does show that the stereotype of lower class people being more religious than upper class people is problematic.
Yes, going to church regularly has little to do with one's belief in God. I'd never buy books written by self-described libertarians, but I'd pick it up from the dumpster were I to find it there.
The point was that consistent and vocal  atheism is more likely among people that are economically secure/privileged.

I'm glad that you are so open to reading about opposing viewpoints. Your education has served you well.

But I (partly) agree with the second part. We can distinguish between ideological atheism and practical atheism. Ideological atheism requires a lot of time committed to intellectual inquiry, which you generally only see among more privileged types. But really there is no reason to think of the poor as religious, when they don't attend church or even live by their faith's tenets. The statistics show how misleading self-reported affiliation can be with respect to actual religious behavior.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2014, 03:13:17 PM »
Remember that politics should only be posted in the Politics subforum.

Why did you post this?
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2014, 03:14:03 PM »
I know a pretty vocal atheist-we used to hang out but never talked religion. Anyways he's also a pretty old fashioned leftist (communist) so that mitigates some of his atheistic  zeal a bit , as today people most likely to respond to socialist propaganda are also some sort of religious believers .
As for the new atheists yes, they are virtually all supporters of the most inhuman varieties of capitalism.
Engage them with mockery, pointing out to the ivory tower it takes to sustain those beliefs. poor people aren't paragons of virtue and ascesis (thank God) but they aren't atheists either, since atheism tends to be a luxury good.

That's really good stuff augustin.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2014, 03:18:54 PM »
Remember that politics should only be posted in the Politics subforum.
I don't think we've veered into politics yet. Just discussing the demographics of atheism.

 As I said, and Shiny would rip me off, I find it odd that a place that so fetishizes the Greeks could imagine anything human without it.

I guess we remain barbarians in public.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2014, 03:29:28 PM »
Remember that politics should only be posted in the Politics subforum.

Why did you post this?

Aren't you always complaining when threads get moved into Politics?
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2014, 03:46:04 PM »
Remember that politics should only be posted in the Politics subforum.

Why did you post this?

Aren't you always complaining when threads get moved into Politics?

I don't think so. If you look at my post history I would wager fewer than 0.001% of my posts are about "Politics" as you call it.

But every post of mine in fact political as is everyone else's here, but I asking why you were posting what you were. So I answered your question, now answer mine.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Online Asteriktos

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2014, 04:50:58 PM »
The New Atheists (also called anti-theists or militant atheists) are a particular group of atheists who advocate the use of emotional bullying, mockery and ridicule towards every religious believer.

They do tend to go a bit overboard in their rhetoric... sort of like your own post ;)

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2014, 05:02:17 PM »
Atheists also try to tell you what you believe, because, you know, you don't really know what you believe, only unbelievers know.
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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2014, 05:09:15 PM »
[fill in a random group] also try to tell you what you believe, because, you know, you don't really know what you believe

Sounds like your average debate on just about everything.
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Offline Valekhai

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2014, 06:07:12 PM »
Atheists also try to tell you what you believe, because, you know, you don't really know what you believe, only unbelievers know.
That is something that always peeves me. How much can somebody respect you as a thinking person if they act like they know what's going on in your own head better than you do? It's like they're calling you stupid and dishonest at the same time.

Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2014, 06:13:53 PM »
I have a new atheist friend. She doesn't get too bad with me, but with everyone else she does xD I don't know if I am just 'dorable or what.
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^^^ It's been so long since I've been here I literally have no idea what that is even referring to o_O

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2014, 06:41:00 PM »
I have a new atheist friend. She doesn't get too bad with me, but with everyone else she does xD I don't know if I am just 'dorable or what.

Lol, I guess so.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2014, 06:47:39 PM »
OK, call me an idiot and keep me that way if you feel kind, but do people actually call themselves "new atheists"?

You got to be kidding.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Romaios

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2014, 07:09:27 PM »
Do people actually call themselves "new atheists"?

It's an exonym, obviously.

In Romania (and only here, as far as I can tell) we call Baptists, Pentecostals and other American brands of Christianity "neoprotestants". They usually don't take kindly to it.

Offline Valekhai

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2014, 07:10:11 PM »
OK, call me an idiot and keep me that way if you feel kind, but do people actually call themselves "new atheists"?

You got to be kidding.


In my experience, not really, no. Mostly because nobody's really sure what it means.

Offline FormerCalvinist

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2014, 07:45:35 PM »
OK, call me an idiot and keep me that way if you feel kind, but do people actually call themselves "new atheists"?

You got to be kidding.


Some of them call themselves Brights.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 07:46:49 PM by FormerCalvinist »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2014, 07:59:04 PM »
Do people actually call themselves "new atheists"?

It's an exonym, obviously.

In this world of self branding nothing is obvious to me anymore.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2014, 07:59:55 PM »
OK, call me an idiot and keep me that way if you feel kind, but do people actually call themselves "new atheists"?

You got to be kidding.


Some of them call themselves Brights.

Sounds gay.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline JamesR

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2014, 08:22:20 PM »
It's a shame that Hitchens' legacy was hijacked by the whole "New Atheist" thing.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2014, 08:23:55 PM »
It's a shame that Hitchens' legacy was hijacked by the whole "New Atheist" thing.

He was the idiot who allowed it with all his stupid debates with his lessors. His pre-9/11 legacy be remembered.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2014, 08:34:16 PM »
The New Atheists (also called anti-theists or militant atheists) are a particular group of atheists who advocate the use of emotional bullying, mockery and ridicule towards every religious believer.

 Alrighty, let's see just how tough they are;  I say they start the tour in Mecca.

 
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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2014, 08:44:05 PM »
Except for the 40-odd people who attend St. Bishoy COC here, and one cousin who describes herself as Roman Catholic (I think mostly because she married a Polish guy), basically everyone I know is an atheist or agnostic. None of them describe themselves as "new atheists" (or "brights"...I'd never heard that before right now). These names sound like bad marketing campaigns for philosophical choices. I have to be honest and say I don't know any hateful atheists in real (read: non-internet) life, either. No doubt they're out there, but I must not be doing my job as a Christian from the internet, as I have yet to attract them. Meh. For most of the West, religion seems to be irrelevant no matter what your personal take on it is (to say nothing of the idea of either religion or irreligion as a communal identifier, which is fraught with problems in today's bright and shiny post-everything world). I wouldn't call any kind of atheists a "hate group" because I don't believe in giving people who may indeed wish to do harm to other people for their differing life choices (if this is what the "new atheists" are about; again, I doubt it, but I don't know anyone who describes themselves that way) any more free publicity than their own shouting can muster.

That said, I find people like Dawkins, Hitchens, et. al. (and most of the Christians on the other side of these debates, whose names I don't know because I try not to pay attention to these debates) to be insufferable and tiresome. They're all very smart and/or clever, but not terribly engaging or personable. If it is wrong, as many have said, to pick a president based on who you'd like to have a beer with, then I would have to guess that it's just a wrong to pick an (anti-)spiritual leader based on who has "owned" his opponent in a more consistently patronizing and arrogant fashion. Sadly, that is what passes for dialogue or debate in much of the Western world now, from both Christians and anti-religious people. It's a shame.

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2014, 08:48:00 PM »
Sadly, that is what passes for dialogue or debate in much of the Western world now, from both Christians and anti-religious people. It's a shame.

The ones mentioned in the thread so far happen to get the most attention, but I wouldn't say they are the best non-believers to go to for some kind of interesting discussion or understanding of what it's all about. Going to Dawkins and Hitchens to find out what atheists (new or otherwise) think would be like going to Brother Nathanael and F. Schaffer to find out what the Orthodox Church believes.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 08:48:22 PM by Asteriktos »

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2014, 08:53:39 PM »
I agree, Asterikos, but society as a whole seems to reward mediocrity with the most attention. I feel the same way whenever one of the infamous debates between Ahmed Deedat and Jimmy Swaggart (or was it Pat Robertson? I don't remember; I try to block them out of my mind) is suggested to me by Youtube after I watch anything Coptic-related...I dunno...perhaps these are the most-watched/listened to kinds of debates because they're the easiest to process, what with broad ideological strokes being drawn by both sides... :-\

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2014, 09:20:57 PM »
Sadly, that is what passes for dialogue or debate in much of the Western world now, from both Christians and anti-religious people. It's a shame.

The ones mentioned in the thread so far happen to get the most attention, but I wouldn't say they are the best non-believers to go to for some kind of interesting discussion or understanding of what it's all about. Going to Dawkins and Hitchens to find out what atheists (new or otherwise) think would be like going to Brother Nathanael and F. Schaffer to find out what the Orthodox Church believes.

Atheism is not a system of dogma. Individual athiests have many different ideologies. What the individual atheist might believe personally on any number of topics is not necessarily indicative of atheism. I know of communist atheists, global warming denying/agreeing atheists, atheists who actually subscribe to homeopathy, ghosts, conspiracy theories and any number of things that one might be sceptical about.
One thing they are all united on is a rejection of belief in any deity. That and that alone is what makes them an atheist.
Some of them are quite aggressive in this denial - just as some theists are aggressive in their belief system. Those who are defensive or aggressive are usually those who have escaped from a bad religious situation and have had to defend their right to disbelief within a religious family setting. Others have taken personal offence at what religions have done throughout history and make it a crusade to convince others that religion is a bad thing. Even if one believes them to be wrong, one can't fault them on the personal convictions that brings them to the conclusion that religion is dangerous. Freedom of speech and all that.    
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 09:21:49 PM by Riddikulus »
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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2014, 09:29:41 PM »
but then again, plenty of x-ians deserve all hate they get. and many times it ain't hate, but a mild form of contempt.
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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2014, 09:48:35 PM »
but then again, plenty of x-ians deserve all hate they get. and many times it ain't hate, but a mild form of contempt.

Yes, but I wasn't confining my comments to the rejection of the Christian faith. I guess a lot of x-<insert religion here> are particularly anti what they have left behind. Whenever one is converted to a new mindset, hating the previous one and becoming rather outspoken against it, seems to go with the territory. Such are the pitfalls of *enlightenment*. :)
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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2014, 11:01:00 PM »
OK, call me an idiot and keep me that way if you feel kind, but do people actually call themselves "new atheists"?

You got to be kidding.


Some of them call themselves Brights.

They are the intellectuals, the free thinkers, the smarter, the defenders of human rights, and are they are the brights!! What is next ?

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2014, 11:58:44 PM »
I've paid less attention over the years to this stuff, but I think it was Daniel Dennett* who remarked that "brights" was supposed to be a positive label for people, not a negative shot at others. In other words, at least as he saw it, it was about embracing a label that could be associated with something positive (reason and learning), rather than a label focused on a negative or non-belief (a-theist, anti-religious, etc.), and it also was not meant to imply that those who disagreed with the brights were "dim".

*I didn't find Dennett's critique of religion and its origin especially helpful, but overall I like him the most of the four most prominent atheists around today. He seems to me, by far, to be the most thoughtful and amicable of the four horsemen of the atheist apocalypse.

...

Anyway, to repost my list...

Where the new non-religious rank on my all-time list of non-religious:

4) Neil deGrasse Tyson
147) Adam Savage
246) James Randi
271) Michael Shermer
294) Daniel Dennett
722) Lawrence Krauss
4532) Victor Stenger
4637) Richard Dawkins
4901) Christopher Hitchens
4987) Dan Barker
10302) Sam Harris

TBD) Stephen Pinker
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 12:11:57 AM by Asteriktos »

Online Asteriktos

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2014, 11:59:32 PM »
Atheism is not a system of dogma. Individual athiests have many different ideologies. What the individual atheist might believe personally on any number of topics is not necessarily indicative of atheism. I know of communist atheists, global warming denying/agreeing atheists, atheists who actually subscribe to homeopathy, ghosts, conspiracy theories and any number of things that one might be sceptical about. One thing they are all united on is a rejection of belief in any deity. That and that alone is what makes them an atheist.

Next time an argument erupts over this I'm PMing you for some support.  :angel:

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2014, 12:37:28 AM »
Atheism is not a system of dogma. Individual athiests have many different ideologies. What the individual atheist might believe personally on any number of topics is not necessarily indicative of atheism. I know of communist atheists, global warming denying/agreeing atheists, atheists who actually subscribe to homeopathy, ghosts, conspiracy theories and any number of things that one might be sceptical about. One thing they are all united on is a rejection of belief in any deity. That and that alone is what makes them an atheist.

Next time an argument erupts over this I'm PMing you for some support.  :angel:

 :laugh: I'm here to help!
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Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
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Offline Papist

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2014, 03:55:18 PM »


That said, I find people like Dawkins, Hitchens, et. al. (and most of the Christians on the other side of these debates, whose names I don't know because I try not to pay attention to these debates) to be insufferable and tiresome.
Agreed. They are either ignorant or intentionally dishonest. For example, Dawkins' understanding of Aquinas' Five Ways is entirely deficient. Now, either he just doesn't really know what the arguments are, or he is purposely misrepresenting them for the sake of his cause. In either case, Dawkins is severely undermining his own quest to make us all into "Brights."
There are other atheists who are much more interesting, such Nietzsche or Sartre. While I don't agree with their philosophical positions, I would take the arguments of thinkers such as these two over the New Atheists any day. At least Nietzsche and Sartre present real challenges worthy of response.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline lotharson

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2014, 03:57:11 PM »
Papist: I entirely agree.

As I pointed it out in posts (linked above), the New Atheists are a shame and an embarrassment for atheism which has a respectable intellectual tradition.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 03:57:37 PM by lotharson »

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2014, 04:19:22 PM »
OK, call me an idiot and keep me that way if you feel kind, but do people actually call themselves "new atheists"?

You got to be kidding.


Some of them call themselves Brights.

They are the intellectuals, the free thinkers, the smarter, the defenders of human rights, and are they are the brights!! What is next ?

Don't all adherents of any form of (ir)religion/ideology/whatever believe themselves to be just that?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 04:22:54 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline lotharson

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Re: The hate of the New Atheists
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2014, 06:19:12 PM »
Cyriĺic: probably, but there are different degrees.

The New Atheists are convinced to be right and that they ought to ridicule everyone disagreeing.

It is fair to call them hateful extremists and anyone having interacted with them knows I am not exaggerating.