Forgiveness Vespers

[Jennifer]

Today was my first forgiveness vespers.  What a cool liturgy!  I certainly didn't need to do any cardio today after that workout.   

Do all Orthodox churches do forgiveness vespers and is it usually well attended?  My church is mostly convert so pretty much everyone was there.  Do they do forgiveness vespers in the Eastern Catholic churches? 

I certainly can't imagine people prostrating themselves in front of each other and asking for forgiveness at much churches I've attended.  I also have to say that as a lifelong Roman Catholic, no priest has ever asked me for forgiveness before so that was an interesting change. 

And in keeping with the spirit of the day, please forgive me if I've offended you, which I'm sure I have as my tongue (or rather, fingers in this case) is a bit too sharp. 

[Anastasios]

God forgives. Please forgive me.

1) In my former EC Church, yes we did it.

2) At SVS we don't do full prostrations in front of all as there are over 100 people there, but we do do the bend over touch the ground type [i.e. what Russians would call a poklon, I believe].

3) Forgiveness Vespers is always celebrated but the rite died out in some local traditions. it is making a comeback.

Anastasios

[Veniamin]

God forgives; please forgive me.  Today was my first Forgiveness Vespers, as well.  We actually had it immediately after Liturgy, right before the blini luncheon, which ensured a sizable attendance.  We didn't do prostrations, I assume due to numbers.  Even without prostrations, though, it was still a far better way to start Lent than Ash Wednesday ever was. 

[Bono Vox]

My brothers and sisters in Christ; for the sake of Christ please forgive me, a sinner, for offending any of you.

Bagpiper

[Elisha]

2) At SVS we don't do full prostrations in front of all as there are over 100 people there, but we do do the bend over touch the ground type [i.e. what Russians would call a poklon, I believe].

We probably had around 100 and mostly everyone prostrated.

[BrotherAidan]

At my parish it is making a comeback (I requested it when I converted - he he!)
we ask each other's forgiveness as we pass down the line and we kiss each other on the cheek 3 times
attendance is rather small - this is our second year of the "comeback"

Jennifer
if you like forgiveness vespers ,be sure to attend a St. Andrew of Crete matins this week!

[ania]

At SVS we don't do full prostrations in front of all as there are over 100 people there, but we do do the bend over touch the ground type [i.e. what Russians would call a poklon, I believe].

Dustin, Russians call that a payesnoy paklon, a full prostration is zemnoy paklon. 
Unfortunately I haven't made it to Forgiveness Vespers for the last 2 years.  This year due to it being at 8PM in Jordanville, and if I had stayed I would have gotten back to DC at about 4AM.  There they do vespers at 3PM, and then Povecheriya (how do you translate that?) at 8PM so that everyone has time to go out and have their last pig-out meal, etc.  After Povecheriya they pretty much officially consider it lent.  In Jodanville it's one of my favorite services of the year, and there are always around 100 people there.  Let me tell ya, my knees, abs hurt like the dickens every Clean Monday.  :-) 
Anyway, if I've offended anyone, please forgive me. 

[Jennifer]

if you like forgiveness vespers ,be sure to attend a St. Andrew of Crete matins this week!

I've been every night this week so far (ah, the benefits of being underemployed!).  My poor legs are killing me! 

[choirfiend]

I pulled my quad yesterday during like the 3rd prostration that I was in attendance for. So, I figured God was sending me a message and just stayed down.

[BrotherAidan]

my knees ache a bit to - I think the Lord may be telling me to shed some off the mid-section
I was barely getting back up in time to do teh next prostration!

[BrotherAidan]

Maybe we should all start doing some deep knee bends and other exercising next year   about a month before cheesefare to get in shape for lent!

[choirfiend]

Sounds like a good idea to me! Our bodies are the temples, we should at least try to keep them from falling apart if we can

[Fr. George]

We should call it "Ephraim-a-cise"... it would get a great attendance around here at the seminary, where far too many of us gain too much weight on the lenten menu around here (pasta and/or rice as part of almost every lunch and dinner... its too much)

[aurelia]

I havent been to one yet...but it sounds like this is another one not to take the little kids to (the 6yr old HAD to come to Salutations with me...she made it through, but oh man )!

 

I pulled my quad yesterday during like the 3rd prostration that I was in attendance for. So, I figured God was sending me a message and just stayed down.

LMAO!!!  makes sense to me!

[choirfiend]

Little kids SHOULD come to a lenten service or two, if not all of them. When they get used to being in the Church, they learn a lot and behave just as well as any other 2 hour long situation. Since the church is darkened, it's a pretty cool experience. Take any of your kids that you can!

[aurelia]

I agree, choirfiend, in theory, but i think part of the problem was that I had never been to one either, and this time it was pretty much all Greek, plus i had no idea what was going on...and then we stayed of course for the discussion afterwards.  I think the older ones would be able to handle it a bit better.  Next time I'm gonna sit by my (soon to be) nouna  !  It ended up being that I told the little one she could sit down when the altarboys did.  haha.

*actually, seriously, for things like that...standing for two odd hours when you are 6 is a loooong time, how much leniency is there for sitting to rest considering the age of the child?  You would think folks would understand, but i didnt know so she had to stay up.*

[jmbejdl]

Aurelia,

I think that usually there is a fair degree of leniency with regard to standing for the whole liturgy, especially with regards to children, the elderly and the sick. If you went to a church in one of the 'old countries', say Romania, you'd see chairs or benches around the walls of the church for this purpose (though they don't seem to get used much in my experience). This isn't always the case in the west, though. I can't speak for Greek practices or the attitudes of your fellow parishioners, but I don't think you'd have to worry too much about your children sitting down for a while if they get tired.

James

[choirfiend]

Yes, same here.
It's not a RULE you have to follow. We sat down a lot as kids. My mother gave us these guidelines:

You stand whenever the priest comes out of the altar
You stand during the Gospel reading
You stand during the Our Father and Creed
You DEFINITELY stand during the epiclesis (the prayer during the consecration of the Gifts)
And she said that from the epiclesis on, you stand because you are in the prescence of the Eucharist
And you don't sit down after you receive Communion because other people are still receiving.

So, while we were allowed to sit, we still HAD to stand at certain points if nothing else, and there are good reasons for that standing. But giving little legs a rest is very much ok!

I'm sorry that it was in mostly Greek. That does make it hard, and nearly nullifies the teaching aspect of the services for your children. It's really hard for them to grow up with an Orthodox understanding of theology if they never hear anything in English.

There's a really sweet little book you can get from Concilliar Press that describes what is happening in the Liturgy and has some children's prayer. We had it as kids and I think it's a great gift to give to anyone at a birth, baptism, etc.
http://conciliarpress.bizhosting.com/guardian_angel_children_s_prayer_book.html

[choirfiend]

PS.

I spent last weekend in a women's monastery. Monasteries celebrate ALL the church services. Vigil and Matins are long when completely done and filled with prayers that aren't normally read in a parish celebration. There were specific times (during the readings separated by a brief sung prayer) when the nuns sat. Standing isn't supposed to kill you. If you're thinking more about your feet than worship, sit your booty down!

[choirfiend]

But another anecdote for you:

I was reading a person's tale of some short term missions work in the Old country (I think this was in Romania, perhaps). They were a group of young, 20something energetic and strong people traveling around the country and doing service work. They were in a church vigil service (that was REALLY following all the Vigil--it was several services one right after another) and it ended up being over 6 hours, through the dark hours of the night.

This group of young, strong adults did tire, fidget from foot to foot, and finally need to periodically sit down as their bodies proved weaker than they thought.

But there was one other person in the church for this service-A greatly aged little old woman in her headcovering. And the 20somethings could not believe it, but she stood there quietly throughout the entire service without moving at all as they dropped one by one. They were awed at her strength and reverence even as their own strength gave out.

Amazing things are possible with God.

[aurelia]

We have a lovely old lady like that in out church, she just radiates extreme strength even though her body is very bent and she is very slow to get about.

Thanks for the insight about the sitting, i figured as much, but with mostly Greek, i didnt exactly know which parts were which. Dummy me sat up closer than usual to see what was going on, and of course nobody came to sit in front of me so there was nobody to copy! Usually we get a lot of English, but since the crowd was mostly the older old country folks that night, we got greek. They had the little books, so i at least got to read it in english, even if I wasnt in the right place, lol!

And thank you for the link, I'll see if our parish bookstore has it on hand, you never know with them. They got the monastary cookbook i had just ordered about a week after it arrived at my house.   edit: I just looked at the link and yes indeedy they have a copy there, i have seen it! I'll see about it on Sunday

[BrotherAidan]

A friend of mine told me about an old Greek woman she knows who by day works in her sons' pizza shop. In the evening and at night she goes home and prays and sleeps only a few hours, if at all. She also requires very little food.

I think these people are far advanced on the path of theosis/deification!

[jmbejdl]

I can vouch for the existence of little old ladies (and men) that put us youngsters to shame with their stamina also. My wife's grandparents are a very good example. Actually, this also reminds me of a scene from Fr. Ted (a '90s sitcom about a group of Roman Catholic priests in Ireland). At one point Ted thinks that an old lady has been told by God that he is responsible for her grandson's hospitalisation. He turns to another priest and says that old ladies have the direct line to God and that 'they're much closer to Our Lord than we'll ever be.' Of course, this is just a joke from a sitcom, but it does have the ring of truth to it.

James

[aurelia]

I LOVE father ted! *and he's right, you now!*

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