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Author Topic: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me  (Read 12516 times) Average Rating: 0
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Maria
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« Reply #360 on: January 26, 2014, 02:53:05 AM »

The one woman in the white long sleeve shirt is dressed very conservatively. She is also really very beautiful. I think her beauty is far more distracting than the tiny holes in her sleeves.

I agree! 

If church looked more like this, things would be better:



Lord have mercy. I would be a basket case trying not to laugh in one of those shopping bags.
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« Reply #361 on: January 26, 2014, 02:53:47 AM »

Quote
I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  

You still have shown no interest in overcoming your "weakness", other than to prevail upon women to conform to a state of "modesty" which is practically monastic. You're putting the burden on them, not on yourself. If a glimpse of "back flesh" brings you down, then nothing short of a monastic habit or a burqa will do for you. And that ain't gonna happen.

LBK, there is always a third way. He could go all Scriptural like he claims to be and:

Quote
Mattityahu 18:9
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
9 And if your eye causes a michshol for you, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter Chayyim one-eyed than, having two eyes, to be cast into the Gehinnom HaEish.
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« Reply #362 on: January 26, 2014, 02:54:39 AM »

The one woman in the white long sleeve shirt is dressed very conservatively. She is also really very beautiful. I think her beauty is far more distracting than the tiny holes in her sleeves.

I agree!  

If church looked more like this, things would be better:



But we would have to outlaw embellishing or blinging out those paper bags. Wink And of course only brown would be allowed. And we would have to have a length requirement.

Seconded. And no skin of any sort showing, not even hands. Crossing oneself would need to be done under the bag, so as not to inflame the passions.  Tongue

But think of the time saved on dressing for Liturgy....this -could- have the positive side effect of making people a bit earlier....some might even arrive for the Gospel reading!!!!!  Wink

Oh, the big sneeze! Off with the bag, my nose is itching!
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« Reply #363 on: January 26, 2014, 02:55:12 AM »

Quote
I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  

You still have shown no interest in overcoming your "weakness", other than to prevail upon women to conform to a state of "modesty" which is practically monastic. You're putting the burden on them, not on yourself. If a glimpse of "back flesh" brings you down, then nothing short of a monastic habit or a burqa will do for you. And that ain't gonna happen.

LBK, there is always a third way. He could go all Scriptural like he claims to be and:

Quote
Mattityahu 18:9
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
9 And if your eye causes a michshol for you, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter Chayyim one-eyed than, having two eyes, to be cast into the Gehinnom HaEish.

Nah, that's Theophilos' shtick.  Wink
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« Reply #364 on: January 26, 2014, 02:56:11 AM »

The one woman in the white long sleeve shirt is dressed very conservatively. She is also really very beautiful. I think her beauty is far more distracting than the tiny holes in her sleeves.

I agree!  

If church looked more like this, things would be better:



But we would have to outlaw embellishing or blinging out those paper bags. Wink And of course only brown would be allowed. And we would have to have a length requirement.

Seconded. And no skin of any sort showing, not even hands. Crossing oneself would need to be done under the bag, so as not to inflame the passions.  Tongue

But think of the time saved on dressing for Liturgy....this -could- have the positive side effect of making people a bit earlier....some might even arrive for the Gospel reading!!!!!  Wink

Oh, the big sneeze! Off with the bag, my nose is itching!

Ah, my dear Maria! Be strong, and fight that passion! Fight it!  Wink
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« Reply #365 on: January 26, 2014, 02:58:29 AM »

It has been explained to me that the dress code for the Goldendale Monastery, as well as the AZ monastery my daughter's godmother attended school at is as much for safety/comfort as anything else. In Yakima rattlesnakes are a particular danger during certain seasons. And it is much easier to do prostrations modestly when you wear a long/full skirt.

Sometimes.

During prostrations, when the entire church is in the aisles making prostrations, there have been times when a man or another woman would accidentally step on a women's long skirt (with an elastic waist), and she was almost exposed. Usually Antiochian and OCA churches make the prostrations. Greek parishes typically do not, but stay in their pews and kneel.

It all depends.
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« Reply #366 on: January 26, 2014, 03:02:00 AM »

Ah, we don't have pews.
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« Reply #367 on: January 26, 2014, 03:20:15 AM »

If you think those are skin tight clothes, you've never seen the college co-eds in Seattle wearing yoga pants so tight you can almost see the yeast infections growing.

 Shocked Huh Shocked Huh

*spills coffee*

I don't know if I'm supposed to be aroused by that or disgusted, or both...
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« Reply #368 on: January 26, 2014, 03:22:35 AM »

if God is without sin and would not lust after his children, WHO is that dress code for and WHO does it protect, and why?

Talking about clothing women in various ways as a form of protection is disgusting.

Yeah it is. That's like cutting someone's ear off to "protect" them from an ear infection or circumcising your son to "protect" him from dirty foreskin when all it takes is 10 seconds in the shower every morning.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #369 on: January 26, 2014, 03:33:51 AM »

Ethiopians are often barefoot in services, and they are often very covered. So I don't think the rules are just about modesty.

Different jurisdictions do things different.  I believe in that one they do so because "they are on holy ground", as Moses was told to take of his sandals.

Exactly.

In Hawaii, people are expected to take their shoes off when entering the Orthodox Church. It was a new experience for me.

 Huh

You visited Hawaii? I thought that you couldn't travel much due to allergies and other health related issues?

I imagine it was expensive. My friend told me that McDonalds is thrice as expensive in Hawaii as it is over here.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #370 on: January 26, 2014, 03:36:13 AM »

So is the woman whose "back flesh" you saw peeking from under the buttons of her dress at fault?

To be fair, if Justin Timberlake has taught us anything, it's to never underestimate the sexual nature of the back.
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« Reply #371 on: January 26, 2014, 03:39:31 AM »

Actually, that dress code is about being respectful TO God, in his house.  Not about protection, more about perhaps not being vain and superficial.

Not entirely

You're on the right track, but still not quite correct.

Such thinking is actually anti-Incarnational in that it presupposes a chasm between mankind and God that Christ ultimately removed. I mean, if we can receive God into our mouths, kiss an Icon of Him, call Him "Father" in the Lord's Prayer among other things, then I don't see why we would have to cover our bodies in front of Him. It kinda echoes the whole Jewish "ritual purity" thing.
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« Reply #372 on: January 26, 2014, 10:54:23 AM »

I am exploring the depths of sin,

How one should understand that?

No,

The point is the person who WANTS to bring attention to herself through a veil is wrong, and those who fall for it are wrong.

I do not think anyone would like to bring your attention to her taking into account your view on women. Stop daydreaming they do it fr you.

Also consider, if EO nuns wear make up.  You should ask one why not.

Because they are nuns. You seem to have a problem differentiating between nuns and normal women.

If makeup is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

I personally actually do not like heavy make up.

I think you need to re-read what I posted, you are demonizing what I said totally.  I said that "It is my weakness" and I do not judge them.  I was hoping to make some women aware at how easily weak men like myself can fall.

Typical OC.net, the thread turned into bikinis, LGBT, and masturbation.

I was hoping to shed light on my struggle, and the fact that many men may struggle with the same thing.

Your weakness. Not shared or even understood by anyone else.
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« Reply #373 on: January 26, 2014, 11:14:14 AM »

If makeup is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

I personally actually do not like heavy make up.


I'm with you. A little goes a long way.
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« Reply #374 on: January 26, 2014, 11:21:26 AM »

On a lighter note, as kid I lived for a while with some extended family who spoke often only in Pig Latin.

I spent a good portion of my childhood with cousins who would speak fluent Pig Latin among themselves.  How many of us are out there?

My parents and aunts and uncles all frequently spoke Pig Latin so that we children wouldn't understand what they were saying. It worked great until an older cousin helped us crack the code.
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« Reply #375 on: January 26, 2014, 02:03:04 PM »

My parents and aunts and uncles all frequently spoke Pig Latin so that we children wouldn't understand what they were saying. It worked great until an older cousin helped us crack the code.

In my family, the gibberish of choice for preserving secrecy was Hindi, not Pig Latin. 
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« Reply #376 on: January 26, 2014, 02:10:07 PM »

So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  Wink

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

So was circumcision.  And kosher laws.  And a bunch of other things that you likely do not observe as God commanded them.  The only difference between you and me is that I prefer the Church's measuring rod in such matters, and you prefer your own.  And therein lies the relevance of Galatians 5.12 if you have ears to hear. 
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« Reply #377 on: January 26, 2014, 02:11:58 PM »

You're putting the burden on them, not on yourself.

Matthew 23.4
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« Reply #378 on: January 26, 2014, 02:13:00 PM »

...circumcising your son to "protect" him from dirty foreskin when all it takes is 10 seconds in the shower every morning.

That long?
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« Reply #379 on: January 26, 2014, 03:33:49 PM »

This thread points out several truths.

Like medication, self administered religion can be dangerous in ways not intended by the manufacturer.

Narcissism seems to blend together with an odd mixture of self loathing and guilt.

It is far easier to blame others for one's own weaknesses and shortcomings than to accept any personal responsibility.

I do not believe in the God some of you seem to have invented, that one being a god who created physical beauty, natural beauty, good food and fine wines for the sole and devious purpose of leading us to fail in our spiritual lives. 

Kudos here to Mor and LBK.
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« Reply #380 on: January 26, 2014, 03:46:33 PM »

Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Like Galatians 5.12?  ISTM that would kill two birds with one stone.  

So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  Wink

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

There are wonderful and beautiful things in Orthodoxy, but there are some wrong things too.  If you skip the fact that there were powerful and manipulative men in charge at times and go directly to the commands from God, you can see the errors in practice.   It's a dead horse here I know.  We'll probably never agree.  But who knows?

On to the thread, I think I've made my point.   I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  It's their choice though, and my sin is before me.

Can you confess your back flesh fascination to a Mennonite priest given that you're so willing to share this with an Internet forum?   Huh
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« Reply #381 on: January 26, 2014, 04:50:50 PM »

This thread points out several truths.

Like medication, self administered religion can be dangerous in ways not intended by the manufacturer.

Narcissism seems to blend together with an odd mixture of self loathing and guilt.

It is far easier to blame others for one's own weaknesses and shortcomings than to accept any personal responsibility.

I do not believe in the God some of you seem to have invented, that one being a god who created physical beauty, natural beauty, good food and fine wines for the sole and devious purpose of leading us to fail in our spiritual lives. 

Kudos here to Mor and LBK.

Indeed!
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« Reply #382 on: January 26, 2014, 05:00:06 PM »

Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Like Galatians 5.12?  ISTM that would kill two birds with one stone.  

So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  Wink

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

There are wonderful and beautiful things in Orthodoxy, but there are some wrong things too.  If you skip the fact that there were powerful and manipulative men in charge at times and go directly to the commands from God, you can see the errors in practice.   It's a dead horse here I know.  We'll probably never agree.  But who knows?

On to the thread, I think I've made my point.   I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  It's their choice though, and my sin is before me.

Can you confess your back flesh fascination to a Mennonite priest given that you're so willing to share this with an Internet forum?   Huh
Mennonites don't have priests and even some Mennonite ministers would state he has internal issues that are his own responsibility.
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« Reply #383 on: January 26, 2014, 05:07:47 PM »

Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Like Galatians 5.12?  ISTM that would kill two birds with one stone.  

So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  Wink

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

There are wonderful and beautiful things in Orthodoxy, but there are some wrong things too.  If you skip the fact that there were powerful and manipulative men in charge at times and go directly to the commands from God, you can see the errors in practice.   It's a dead horse here I know.  We'll probably never agree.  But who knows?

On to the thread, I think I've made my point.   I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  It's their choice though, and my sin is before me.

Can you confess your back flesh fascination to a Mennonite priest given that you're so willing to share this with an Internet forum?   Huh
Mennonites don't have priests and even some Mennonite ministers would state he has internal issues that are his own responsibility.

Other Mennonite males may share the same problem with yeshuaisiam.  If back flesh fascinations are too powerful to deal with alone, having the support of others is crucial.
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« Reply #384 on: January 26, 2014, 05:56:29 PM »

Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Like Galatians 5.12?  ISTM that would kill two birds with one stone.  

So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  Wink

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

There are wonderful and beautiful things in Orthodoxy, but there are some wrong things too.  If you skip the fact that there were powerful and manipulative men in charge at times and go directly to the commands from God, you can see the errors in practice.   It's a dead horse here I know.  We'll probably never agree.  But who knows?

On to the thread, I think I've made my point.   I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  It's their choice though, and my sin is before me.

Can you confess your back flesh fascination to a Mennonite priest given that you're so willing to share this with an Internet forum?   Huh
Mennonites don't have priests and even some Mennonite ministers would state he has internal issues that are his own responsibility.

Other Mennonite males may share the same problem with yeshuaisiam.  If back flesh fascinations are too powerful to deal with alone, having the support of others is crucial.

A bigger issue is a twisted and unhealthy view of sex and people's bodies. If they were raised to have a healthy view of these things, even with women dressing modestly, they would have fewer issues in this area.
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« Reply #385 on: January 26, 2014, 06:26:11 PM »

If makeup is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

I personally actually do not like heavy make up.


I'm with you. A little goes a long way.

I disagree. I like heavy makeup on a woman because it gives her a somewhat glamorous look that I go crazy for. As to how much makeup a woman wears at Church, I really don't care. Have you seen how seriously some women take their makeup? I sure wouldn't want to be the one to tell them "you can't come like that."
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« Reply #386 on: January 26, 2014, 06:26:24 PM »

Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Like Galatians 5.12?  ISTM that would kill two birds with one stone.  

So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  Wink

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

There are wonderful and beautiful things in Orthodoxy, but there are some wrong things too.  If you skip the fact that there were powerful and manipulative men in charge at times and go directly to the commands from God, you can see the errors in practice.   It's a dead horse here I know.  We'll probably never agree.  But who knows?

On to the thread, I think I've made my point.   I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  It's their choice though, and my sin is before me.

Can you confess your back flesh fascination to a Mennonite priest given that you're so willing to share this with an Internet forum?   Huh
Mennonites don't have priests and even some Mennonite ministers would state he has internal issues that are his own responsibility.

Other Mennonite males may share the same problem with yeshuaisiam.  If back flesh fascinations are too powerful to deal with alone, having the support of others is crucial.

A bigger issue is a twisted and unhealthy view of sex and people's bodies. If they were raised to have a healthy view of these things, even with women dressing modestly, they would have fewer issues in this area.

Amen to that.

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« Reply #387 on: January 27, 2014, 04:19:43 PM »

if God is without sin and would not lust after his children, WHO is that dress code for and WHO does it protect, and why?

Talking about clothing women in various ways as a form of protection is disgusting.

Yeah it is. That's like cutting someone's ear off to "protect" them from an ear infection or circumcising your son to "protect" him from dirty foreskin when all it takes is 10 seconds in the shower every morning.

But yet nobody has any reason at all for the dress code of the monastery.

It's an argument ender.  It's because the scriptures speak of women being modest, the monastery wants women to be modest, and OC.net people, don't seem so much.

My argument has been twisted and contorted so much.   The women in my OP - I was just sharing my own personal weakness.   It's my own sin.

Sisters and brothers should protect each other though, and if women dress to make men fall that is wrong.  I am not accusing the women in my OP.

However, the bikini women, it goes against scripture.   I don't believe Christ intended his baptism to have women dressed in lewdness diving in after him. 
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« Reply #388 on: January 27, 2014, 04:52:36 PM »

No offense, but the reference to women being baptized in bikinis seems like a bit if a distraction.  Much like the clown masses that are often mentioned.

I wonder, if you didn't insist your wife dress so plainly, would your mind stray as much?  Maybe you would be more excited to look at you wife. 

For some reason this reminds me of a Rita Hayworth movie called Miss Sadie Thompson. 
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« Reply #389 on: January 27, 2014, 04:54:12 PM »

Thought this thread was locked since I hadn't seen it in a few hours.
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« Reply #390 on: January 27, 2014, 05:29:21 PM »

Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Like Galatians 5.12?  ISTM that would kill two birds with one stone.  

So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  Wink

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

There are wonderful and beautiful things in Orthodoxy, but there are some wrong things too.  If you skip the fact that there were powerful and manipulative men in charge at times and go directly to the commands from God, you can see the errors in practice.   It's a dead horse here I know.  We'll probably never agree.  But who knows?

On to the thread, I think I've made my point.   I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  It's their choice though, and my sin is before me.

Can you confess your back flesh fascination to a Mennonite priest given that you're so willing to share this with an Internet forum?   Huh
Mennonites don't have priests and even some Mennonite ministers would state he has internal issues that are his own responsibility.

Other Mennonite males may share the same problem with yeshuaisiam.  If back flesh fascinations are too powerful to deal with alone, having the support of others is crucial.

A bigger issue is a twisted and unhealthy view of sex and people's bodies. If they were raised to have a healthy view of these things, even with women dressing modestly, they would have fewer issues in this area.

Amen to that.



Following goat kidding season, if I have time, I'm will unearth some Orthodox books and writings on some of you that will show how un-Eastern Orthodox your arguments and beliefs are.

But for now, I'll leave it with scripture (even though I know from users here, that scriptures themselves aren't respected much).

1 Timothy 2:9
Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

(I don't know the intent of bikini clad women.... oh no I don't.  LOL)

Or the women in completely see through clothings and breasts hanging out in the Theophany.
http://www.demotix.com/photo/561183/orthodox-epiphany-celebrations-ukraine
Excuses.... Reasons...   Yeah I know, keep making them up folks.

No intent at all.  Even though women were told to dress modestly in the scriptures.


Oh wait, so many of you say "it is my own sin" and did not even recognize that people can cause others to sin.  1 Corinthians 8:  9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/visitorguide.php
* Orthodox clergy must wear a cassock (raso) in the Monastery and an outer cassock (exoraso) in the services.
* Men must wear long pants and long-sleeved shirts
*Women must wear long skirts, long-sleeved blouses, and scarves. (Please, no pants/slacks (unless worn under skirt), no tight-fitting clothing, no skirts with slits, hats, low-cut blouses, or sheer or small scarves)
* Shoes/sandals must be worn with socks at all times. Please do not wear sheer stockings. Please wear practical and comfortable flat shoes while at the Monastery as it is desert terrain and the pathways are of rough flagstone. Please wear flat shoes— No high heels, platform shoes or open-toed sandals.

Okay, so they have this dress code because of _______?  Typical thread answer "They don't know her intent".   LOL

Loose fitting clothing because of..... ?
Low-cut blouses because of...... ?
NO TIGHT FITTING CLOTHING because of...... ? 

You guys need to learn Orthodoxy 101, seriously.  Your own monasteries speak to my argument, while some of you try to rip me apart for the very reasons monks post these rules.


Not Isolated, let's try Mt. Athos:
Quote from: http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2011/07/should-women-be-allowed-on-holy-mount-athos/
Throughout Christian history, many religious communities of men and women have chosen to live apart to focus their lives on their spiritual mission. The monks’ lives of devotion to God include the practices of scarcity and asceticism as well as virginity, seeking to remove any barriers, including sexual desire, to their pursuit of spiritual peace and holiness.

So they don't want women to cause them to fall into sexual desire.   But the consensus of this thread is "That's not her fault it's your fault and you don't know her intent."   So part of the monks banning women, INCLUDES sexual desire on part of the monks!

Do some of you still want to argue?

http://www.panagiaprousiotissa.org/dresscode.html
Men are asked to wear long pants and long-sleeved shirts. Women are asked to wear ankle-length skirts, long-sleeved shirts, and are to have their heads covered with a veil or scarf. Please DO NOT wear hats (unless over a scarf), shear scarves, pants (unless under a skirt), shorts, pant-skirts, mini-skirts, sleeveless blouses, short-sleeved shirts, etc. Everyone is asked to wear socks (especially when wearing sandals).

Ah HA, there is a shear scarf mentioned as I did in my OP.

Here's another link talking about women being turned away from church because of dress codes.... "The monks are only human..."  "Chose a life of celibacy..."   (Of course it's not her fault or intent right?)
http://www.kurskroot.com/orthodox_dress_code.html

So here we have your Eastern Orthdox Brothers in Christ turning away women from their monastery because they don't dress right - because they don't want to LUST for them.  Even down to sheer scarves.  In the dress codes posted, "sheer" was spelled differently, thus most likely typed out and not a simple copy/paste.

So tell me if I'm so wrong in my argument, why is it that the well versed Eastern Orthodoxy Christians somewhat side with what I'm saying?  If I'm wrong then why do the scriptures say we can cause each other to stumble?  If I'm wrong why do monks see sheer scarves outside of their dress code?  If I'm wrong why do monks see tight clothes (in my OP) as a no-no.  If I'm wrong why don't pants conform?   If I'm wrong why does a slit in the back of a dress not work for an Orthodox environment in the eyes of Orthodox Christians?

The point is, men stumble, and women can cause them to stumble both with intent or not.   A sister in Christ should be concerned about this for her brothers, OR be turned away (as the monasteries do) in the Eastern Orthodox church.

So please, the arguments I'm hearing from many of you are against the scriptures and your own Eastern Orthodox brothers/clergy.

If a woman can be called out and turned back at a monastery (despite HER INTENT) then certainly any man can recognize the depths of his own lust and small things that make him fall.  She shows up in a sheer scarf, the monks know they may gawk at it and fall into lust, despite her intent.




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« Reply #391 on: January 27, 2014, 05:47:47 PM »

Would u please stop posting pictures of Orthodox women to incite public shaming and ridicule ?

Look, most here would not dress like that and I doubt it is a common occurrence.  You can find anything in the Internet.  But we are not going to join you in picking up stones to throw at her.
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« Reply #392 on: January 27, 2014, 05:49:45 PM »

I don't believe Christ intended his baptism to have women dressed in lewdness diving in after him.

Well, they could always be baptized naked with Deaconesses blocking the Priest's vision, which is what the ancient Church did IIRC.

Our sensitivity over nudity or near-nudity is actually a newer convention unfounded in ancient history,
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« Reply #393 on: January 27, 2014, 05:55:52 PM »

I don't believe Christ intended his baptism to have women dressed in lewdness diving in after him.

Well, they could always be baptized naked with Deaconesses blocking the Priest's vision, which is what the ancient Church did IIRC.

Our sensitivity over nudity or near-nudity is actually a newer convention unfounded in ancient history,

Exactly what I was thinking...people used to be baptised in the nude.
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« Reply #394 on: January 27, 2014, 05:56:19 PM »

I don't believe Christ intended his baptism to have women dressed in lewdness diving in after him.

Well, they could always be baptized naked with Deaconesses blocking the Priest's vision, which is what the ancient Church did IIRC.

Our sensitivity over nudity or near-nudity is actually a newer convention unfounded in ancient history,

Yes, the lady in YiM's last picture is probably getting baptized and not participating in a 'fetch the cross' Theophany contest (she wouldn't be the only one taking her clothes off).

No, deaconesses were not supposed to "block the Priest's vision", since - obviously - he couldn't perform the baptism blindfolded.
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« Reply #395 on: January 27, 2014, 05:56:42 PM »

No intent at all.  Even though women were told to dress modestly in the scriptures.

I think a problem here is that "modesty" is subjective and defined by society. People often think that modesty means 19th century or something when in reality what is modest depends on what culture deems modest at the time.

That being said, maybe I'm not as easily aroused as you are, but I don't find the female in this picture that immodest. It's average swimwear by today's standards. There is nothing exceptionally immodest about it. If the Priests in the photo cannot handle it, then that is their problem. They need to learn to, otherwise they shouldn't be clerics.

I think that putting a heavier burden on the woman in question by demanding that she dress in something different is very inconsiderate. How many young women do you see today that are actually religious? Not many, at least IME. I'd commend any female for even going to Church and accepting Baptism regardless of what she was wearing, out of ekonomia.
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« Reply #396 on: January 27, 2014, 06:02:41 PM »

I'd commend any female for even going to Church and accepting Baptism regardless of what she was wearing, out of ekonomia.

This one deserves a medal for putting up with the cold water.
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« Reply #397 on: January 27, 2014, 06:02:52 PM »

Yes,  she's obviously not undergoing infant baptism so maybe wasn't raised with any faith instruction.  So good for her for being baptized!  And is that on frozen ice?  Not sure I could do that, I'd wait till summer if possible. Or find a church in Miami.
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« Reply #398 on: January 27, 2014, 06:08:00 PM »


No intent at all.  Even though women were told to dress modestly in the scriptures.

I would be doing what that Bishop is doing in the picture...staring at the icewater and imagining that it is actually Nancy Pelosi getting nakie.  Otherwise, I might think some sinful thoughts.
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« Reply #399 on: January 27, 2014, 06:11:59 PM »

So you are back to showing us the -most outrageous- picture you can find, and claiming that since we have questioned your focus on tiny details as being tempting, that we approve of the outrageous picture by default.


really?  


You showed us pictures of very sensibly dressed for church ladies, and told us how you would still be tempted by little things in their outfits.  

No one ever said, people should dress immodestly to attend church or go anywhere else.  


You keep returning to the idea that the rest of us have -no- standards when someone argues that your examples are not immodest.  Rather the standard is not 'absolutely zero temptation to any man on earth', but rather reasonably modest.

That is why several MEN have replied and told you that there is an issue with the level of temptation you have...if even modestly clothed women are such a huge constant lure.

You then reply with another scandalous unclad female picture and accuse us of being accepting of 'anything'.

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« Reply #400 on: January 27, 2014, 06:17:53 PM »

So you are back to showing us the -most outrageous- picture you can find, and claiming that since we have questioned your focus on tiny details as being tempting, that we approve of the outrageous picture by default.


really?  


You showed us pictures of very sensibly dressed for church ladies, and told us how you would still be tempted by little things in their outfits.  

No one ever said, people should dress immodestly to attend church or go anywhere else.  


You keep returning to the idea that the rest of us have -no- standards when someone argues that your examples are not immodest.  Rather the standard is not 'absolutely zero temptation to any man on earth', but rather reasonably modest.

That is why several MEN have replied and told you that there is an issue with the level of temptation you have...if even modestly clothed women are such a huge constant lure.

You then reply with another scandalous unclad female picture and accuse us of being accepting of 'anything'.



I really don't find her attire scandalous. It is bathing clothes. She is going into water. They are modest clothes for the situation.

And this attempt to scandalize to make a point is not without precedent here: clown masses.
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« Reply #401 on: January 27, 2014, 06:20:25 PM »

So you are back to showing us the -most outrageous- picture you can find, and claiming that since we have questioned your focus on tiny details as being tempting, that we approve of the outrageous picture by default.

I don't find the photo "outrageous" by any standard. She's getting into the water--what should she be wearing? An ankle-length dress? She's modest by the standards of today.
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« Reply #402 on: January 27, 2014, 06:24:42 PM »

So you are back to showing us the -most outrageous- picture you can find, and claiming that since we have questioned your focus on tiny details as being tempting, that we approve of the outrageous picture by default.

I don't find the photo "outrageous" by any standard. She's getting into the water--what should she be wearing? An ankle-length dress? She's modest by the standards of today.

This thread is nothing more than a study of the importance of context.

If she were naked, I wouldn't give a fig so to speak. Now if she had on other attire, I might actually be "tempted".

Naked and appropriately (according the general norm) dressed women just don't cause much of a reaction that could even be considered lust for me, unless I am in a relationship with them.

It's probably the only healthy part of my psyche and I am sticking to it.
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« Reply #403 on: January 27, 2014, 06:40:28 PM »

Oh wait, so many of you say "it is my own sin" and did not even recognize that people can cause others to sin.

People can accept/reject temptation.  It's called free will.  You allow the sight of back flesh to tempt you; you have as much power to reject that temptation and not allow the distraction to affect you.

You guys need to learn Orthodoxy 101, seriously.

You first.   Wink
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« Reply #404 on: January 27, 2014, 06:42:49 PM »

Oh wait, so many of you say "it is my own sin" and did not even recognize that people can cause others to sin.

People can accept/reject temptation.  It's called free will.  You allow the sight of back flesh to tempt you; you have as much power to reject that temptation and not allow the distraction to affect you.

That is absolutely not the case writ general. Maybe you have some personal infos about YiM, but that is not the teaching on sin nor sinful acts. Orthodoxy isn't Tony Robbins.
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