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Author Topic: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me  (Read 12486 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #180 on: January 25, 2014, 10:51:36 PM »

And spanking a child into behaving during liturgy is a baaaaaddddd idea.
I dunno. Maybe there's something to helping a child make an unconscious connection between the liturgy and being verily smote.


By his own admission yeshuaisiam was raised Orthodox. Maybe we know the source of the problem now Wink

Yes, because my dad stopped the divine liturgy, left the altar,  came all the way back into the pews and whooped me.   Either that or he stopped the divine liturgy, brought me on the side of the table of oblation, and gave me some licks. Cheesy

Look, you take the child out of the church, let them know that they are to sit still and pay attention, spank them for not, then bring them back.   I've seen it work countless times.  

Funny, I don't worry about my children breaking things in church.  If they act up they get it.   Oddly they mostly sing along and pay attention.  Wonder what I'm doing wrong?
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« Reply #181 on: January 25, 2014, 10:53:22 PM »

I think it was de Lubac that said "the Fathers are the Church's diary when she was 17". 17 yo write down many embarrassing things.
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« Reply #182 on: January 25, 2014, 10:53:52 PM »

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Funny, I don't worry about my children breaking things in church.

Given the church you attend isn't Orthodox, there would be precious little in it to break.  Tongue
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #183 on: January 25, 2014, 10:54:57 PM »

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I would not see lacy as sexy, but how the lacy is worn.  If it is meant to draw attention from men, then  would you see that as wrong?  

And how does one discern for what effect "how the lace is worn"?

That's right, it's in the eye of the beholder. To the pure, all things are pure ....

YOU DON'T discern.

She discerns.

If she wears to bring attention to herself that is wrong.
The man is wrong too for falling.

The point of this thread was to point out my weakness, hoping that it would shed light on how some men can fall, (even in small ways).   If a sister is looking for attention through her veil, that is not the proper use of one (or her outfit) in church (or anywhere for that matter).
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« Reply #184 on: January 25, 2014, 10:55:53 PM »

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Funny, I don't worry about my children breaking things in church.

Given the church you attend isn't Orthodox, there would be precious little in it to break.  Tongue

Except the thing often lacking in the Orthodox Church, Bibles widely available. Tongue
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« Reply #185 on: January 25, 2014, 10:56:25 PM »

Can you please explain what you mean by falling in small ways? I honestly don't know what you mean.
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« Reply #186 on: January 25, 2014, 11:00:18 PM »

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If she wears to bring attention to herself that is wrong.

Yet the person who perceives it as such is the person who is looking at her. In other words, you, not her.

This is the point you have been missing. With all your obsessive examination of what women wear, you need help, and lots of it. This fixation of yours is unhealthy, to say the least.
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« Reply #187 on: January 25, 2014, 11:00:52 PM »

Can you please explain what you mean by falling in small ways? I honestly don't know what you mean.

Hard to articulate in text.    My opinion on the matter:

My best shot:
You catch yourself looking and being physically attracted and stop.  
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress -----get back to focus.
Fast glances that "just happen".

Falling heavier would be staring and continue to not correct yourself and letting your mind wander a lot, and it goes downhill from there.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #188 on: January 25, 2014, 11:04:32 PM »

Quote
If she wears to bring attention to herself that is wrong.

Yet the person who perceives it as such is the person who is looking at her. In other words, you, not her.

This is the point you have been missing. With all your obsessive examination of what women wear, you need help, and lots of it. This fixation of yours is unhealthy, to say the least.

No,

The point is the person who WANTS to bring attention to herself through a veil is wrong, and those who fall for it are wrong.

The person who wears the veil "honestly", would not be purposely causing another to fall, I think that is wonderful.

Hence if the woman wears a veil that is lacy, matches her outfit, hair drawn all around it, with bling, and the lace matches the lace of her bust cover and SHE WORE IT ON PURPOSE that way to attract male attention, that is sinful for her.   The men who look that is sinful to them.

Perception has nothing to do with it.  In the photos I posted, that is my own weakness.  I was just trying to illustrate how some people can fall to that stuff.

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« Reply #189 on: January 25, 2014, 11:05:46 PM »

Hard to articulate in text.    My opinion on the matter:

My best shot:
You catch yourself looking and being physically attracted and stop.  
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress -----get back to focus.
Fast glances that "just happen".

Falling heavier would be staring and continue to not correct yourself and letting your mind wander a lot, and it goes downhill from there.


I don't think that sounds like falling in small ways. I think that sounds like life. That is along the lines of what I had in mind when I said this:

Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

This is where you're losing me, to be honest. I don't know what you're referring to, but I don't think it's wrong to notice someone else's attractiveness. I don't think you CAN help that. If you walk by someone who is attractive and you think, "Oh! He/she is attractive!", then you're just noticing something that just is, in the same way you might notice that they have brown hair or a red shirt on. That, I think, is different than noticing someone attractive and letting your imagination wander into lust.

My point is, if you have the first scenario in mind, then I think you're setting yourself up for failure.

I think you're being too hard on yourself.
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« Reply #190 on: January 25, 2014, 11:08:56 PM »

Hard to articulate in text.    My opinion on the matter:

My best shot:
You catch yourself looking and being physically attracted and stop.  
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress -----get back to focus.
Fast glances that "just happen".

Falling heavier would be staring and continue to not correct yourself and letting your mind wander a lot, and it goes downhill from there.


I don't think that sounds like falling in small ways. I think that sounds like life. That is along the lines of what I had in mind when I said this:

Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

This is where you're losing me, to be honest. I don't know what you're referring to, but I don't think it's wrong to notice someone else's attractiveness. I don't think you CAN help that. If you walk by someone who is attractive and you think, "Oh! He/she is attractive!", then you're just noticing something that just is, in the same way you might notice that they have brown hair or a red shirt on. That, I think, is different than noticing someone attractive and letting your imagination wander into lust.

My point is, if you have the first scenario in mind, then I think you're setting yourself up for failure.

I think you're being too hard on yourself.

I want to agree with you.  I really do.

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« Reply #191 on: January 25, 2014, 11:10:18 PM »

Some of you folks may be taking this modesty stuff too seriously. As long as she's not wearing boy-shorts then I can control myself. Usually I'm too busy thinking about food during Liturgy than I am sex because of the pre-Eucharist fast.
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« Reply #192 on: January 25, 2014, 11:11:01 PM »

Quote
If she wears to bring attention to herself that is wrong.

Yet the person who perceives it as such is the person who is looking at her. In other words, you, not her.

This is the point you have been missing. With all your obsessive examination of what women wear, you need help, and lots of it. This fixation of yours is unhealthy, to say the least.

No,

The point is the person who WANTS to bring attention to herself through a veil is wrong, and those who fall for it are wrong.

The person who wears the veil "honestly", would not be purposely causing another to fall, I think that is wonderful.

Hence if the woman wears a veil that is lacy, matches her outfit, hair drawn all around it, with bling, and the lace matches the lace of her bust cover and SHE WORE IT ON PURPOSE that way to attract male attention, that is sinful for her.   The men who look that is sinful to them.

Perception has nothing to do with it.  In the photos I posted, that is my own weakness.  I was just trying to illustrate how some people can fall to that stuff.



Perception has EVERYTHING to do with it! You are perceiving the intention of the woman, whether that intention on her part is true or not! You have no idea whether she is intentionally being provocative, or simply dressing well. The giveaway in all of this is this comment of yours:

Quote
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress

My goodness, if this isn't obsessive behavior ...

 Shocked Roll Eyes Tongue Tongue Tongue
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« Reply #193 on: January 25, 2014, 11:12:59 PM »

If a woman comes into a parish wearing a covering, when all the other women are not wearing a cover, they draw attention to themselves. My physical presence with 6 children in tow often draws attention to me even when they are well behaved. When I carry two kids at once, that REALLY draws attention to me.

Having attention drawn to you, doesn't mean that you are automatically sinful.

When a lovely black woman attends services in an almost all white parish, she draws attention to herself whether she desires to or not.
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« Reply #194 on: January 25, 2014, 11:14:21 PM »

How about men dressing modestly as to not distract the womenfolk? I had to stop wearing my Chanel Allure: Homme Sport cologne to keep the middle-aged ladies at bay  Cheesy We should also button up every button on our shirts so that the women aren't aroused by the chest hair.
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« Reply #195 on: January 25, 2014, 11:15:28 PM »

Chest hair has a similar effect to ipecac for me. Back hair more so. That is why I have an Amerindian hubby!
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« Reply #196 on: January 25, 2014, 11:19:20 PM »

Here's the thing. Just because someone is attractive, and is noticed by others, doesn't mean they are sinful and desiring said attention.

My husband drives a bus. The majority of his co-workers are fat and hideous. My husband is really, very, attractive. I have in the past, ridden his bus. About 50% of the women flirt with my husband. I don't fault my husband for this.

When I worked in a salon, my co-workers were 3 gay men. I had many male clients that chose me so they could flirt and make sexual comments at me (which they later regretted...I won't go into that). But it wasn't my fault that these male clients decided to flirt with me.

Blaming an attractive person for being noticed is missing the point entirely.
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« Reply #197 on: January 25, 2014, 11:20:00 PM »

Chest hair has a similar effect to ipecac for me. Back hair more so. That is why I have an Amerindian hubby!
James wouldn't  be a match then.
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« Reply #198 on: January 25, 2014, 11:20:10 PM »

Chest hair has a similar effect to ipecac for me. Back hair more so. That is why I have an Amerindian hubby!

Do Amerindians have to shave? I'm a quarter or so Navajo from my paternal grandmother's side and I still have to shave every morning.
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« Reply #199 on: January 25, 2014, 11:22:29 PM »

Many Indians can't grow much in the way of facial/body hair. It took my father almost a decade to get anything even approaching a goatee, it took my father-in-law a couple years to get his little goatee too.a

SW Indians tend to have more in the way of body hair I think. Mexicans are known for having more body/facial hair (male or female) from what I recall from beauty school.
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« Reply #200 on: January 25, 2014, 11:23:08 PM »

Quote
If she wears to bring attention to herself that is wrong.

Yet the person who perceives it as such is the person who is looking at her. In other words, you, not her.

This is the point you have been missing. With all your obsessive examination of what women wear, you need help, and lots of it. This fixation of yours is unhealthy, to say the least.

No,

The point is the person who WANTS to bring attention to herself through a veil is wrong, and those who fall for it are wrong.

The person who wears the veil "honestly", would not be purposely causing another to fall, I think that is wonderful.

Hence if the woman wears a veil that is lacy, matches her outfit, hair drawn all around it, with bling, and the lace matches the lace of her bust cover and SHE WORE IT ON PURPOSE that way to attract male attention, that is sinful for her.   The men who look that is sinful to them.

Perception has nothing to do with it.  In the photos I posted, that is my own weakness.  I was just trying to illustrate how some people can fall to that stuff.



Perception has EVERYTHING to do with it! You are perceiving the intention of the woman, whether that intention on her part is true or not! You have no idea whether she is intentionally being provocative, or simply dressing well. The giveaway in all of this is this comment of yours:

Quote
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress

My goodness, if this isn't obsessive behavior ...

 Shocked Roll Eyes Tongue Tongue Tongue

Heh, I'm speaking of two people, not the man judging the woman's perception.

IF the woman, on her own, intentionally uses a veil for attracting men, that is her sin.

If a man under his own will lusts for that woman, it is his own sin.

The man doesn't judge if she is doing it for her own attractiveness.    Of course, sometimes it's more obvious than not, but still he should not judge that was her intent - he should worry about himself.

That's what I mean.

To add:
I TRULY believe that MOST women know if what they are wearing is geared at attracting men....  Women are most often way more keen and alert to styles, highlights, decor, and detail oriented than men.  They generally KNOW when it comes to clothing.  

So if they are purposely trying to draw lustful attention, even in small ways, I believe that is a sin on their own.   A man who falls for that, it's a sin too.  A man who lusts after a woman who is NOT trying to dress for her attention, it's a sin as well.  

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« Reply #201 on: January 25, 2014, 11:25:17 PM »

Mennonite temptations even when made public are as juicy as cardboard. Let's move on.
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« Reply #202 on: January 25, 2014, 11:25:37 PM »

So would you deem wearing make-up immodest?
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« Reply #203 on: January 25, 2014, 11:26:02 PM »

Many Indians can't grow much in the way of facial/body hair. It took my father almost a decade to get anything even approaching a goatee, it took my father-in-law a couple years to get his little goatee too.

So, I take it that Amerindian women have smooth legs at all times? I can dig that.

My husband drives a bus.

Wow! Another bus driver?!

My paternal grand-pappy put in upwards of 30 years of service to AC Transit before being fired for storing Jack Daniels on board.

They originally didn't want to give him his retirement benefits due to the fact, but since he was Union, they caved in  Wink

He's a legend 'round these parts among bus drivers. He even made the newspaper after the unfortunate alcohol incident.

Er, back to the subject of things, I would agree that a person can't help it if they are attractive. I mean, as long as they aren't exotically dancing in front of us and aren't dressed unreasonably indecent, then I don't think anyone has any right to complain about immodesty.
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« Reply #204 on: January 25, 2014, 11:26:29 PM »

Here's the thing. Just because someone is attractive, and is noticed by others, doesn't mean they are sinful and desiring said attention.

My husband drives a bus. The majority of his co-workers are fat and hideous. My husband is really, very, attractive. I have in the past, ridden his bus. About 50% of the women flirt with my husband. I don't fault my husband for this.

When I worked in a salon, my co-workers were 3 gay men. I had many male clients that chose me so they could flirt and make sexual comments at me (which they later regretted...I won't go into that). But it wasn't my fault that these male clients decided to flirt with me.

Blaming an attractive person for being noticed is missing the point entirely.

Were you trying to attract the male clients or men in general by your attire?  

That's my point.

If you were then you are promoting them making such comments.  If not, then you didn't contribute to their behavior.

Your husband being attractive -
Did he wear something or act in a flirting manner to prompt such flirtation?

If not he didn't do anything wrong.  If so, he's part guilty.  
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« Reply #205 on: January 25, 2014, 11:28:11 PM »

So would you deem wearing make-up immodest?

No; although high-heeled shoes perhaps.
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« Reply #206 on: January 25, 2014, 11:28:23 PM »

I think I kind of get what he is getting at. He is so used to every woman he is around being fully covered in a "modest" manner that he finds all other forms of dress distracting. But this is his personal issue, not one for society at large. Of course a man raised in the 1900's would find clothing very immodest if he was suddenly plunged into society today.
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« Reply #207 on: January 25, 2014, 11:32:03 PM »

So would you deem wearing make-up immodest?

Smiley

Not immodest, but wrong, and against the writings of some early Christian authors who --- spoke of Roman women who wore their hair broided, with their faces painted with the juices of berries, and their bosoms partially exposed.  

I will have to find this writing, as I'm not exactly saying it right.... I have it in a book somewhere...

Also consider, if EO nuns wear make up.  You should ask one why not.

Also it's quite freaky.   Honestly, pork fat in lipstick, crushed snake shells for powder, and bat feces for mascara?   Why not be happy with who God made you to be, rather than buying into a wordly mentality of beauty?  (Not speaking to YOU directly, but in general).

It also goes along with jewelry, (costly array).
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« Reply #208 on: January 25, 2014, 11:32:56 PM »

Here's the thing. Just because someone is attractive, and is noticed by others, doesn't mean they are sinful and desiring said attention.

My husband drives a bus. The majority of his co-workers are fat and hideous. My husband is really, very, attractive. I have in the past, ridden his bus. About 50% of the women flirt with my husband. I don't fault my husband for this.

When I worked in a salon, my co-workers were 3 gay men. I had many male clients that chose me so they could flirt and make sexual comments at me (which they later regretted...I won't go into that). But it wasn't my fault that these male clients decided to flirt with me.

Blaming an attractive person for being noticed is missing the point entirely.

Were you trying to attract the male clients or men in general by your attire?  

That's my point.

If you were then you are promoting them making such comments.  If not, then you didn't contribute to their behavior.

Your husband being attractive -
Did he wear something or act in a flirting manner to prompt such flirtation?

If not he didn't do anything wrong.  If so, he's part guilty.  

You're still assUming you know the intent of others, and blaming your own weakness on it. How can you know what goes on in the mind of another person who's simply standing in church and not talking to you? That's right, you can't. Only God can.
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« Reply #209 on: January 25, 2014, 11:33:05 PM »

I think I kind of get what he is getting at. He is so used to every woman he is around being fully covered in a "modest" manner that he finds all other forms of dress distracting. But this is his personal issue, not one for society at large. Of course a man raised in the 1900's would find clothing very immodest if he was suddenly plunged into society today.


I live near Dallas Texas and am exposed to women all the time who don't dress Mennonite.  I believe men look more than you can possibly imagine.
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« Reply #210 on: January 25, 2014, 11:35:49 PM »

Here's the thing. Just because someone is attractive, and is noticed by others, doesn't mean they are sinful and desiring said attention.

My husband drives a bus. The majority of his co-workers are fat and hideous. My husband is really, very, attractive. I have in the past, ridden his bus. About 50% of the women flirt with my husband. I don't fault my husband for this.

When I worked in a salon, my co-workers were 3 gay men. I had many male clients that chose me so they could flirt and make sexual comments at me (which they later regretted...I won't go into that). But it wasn't my fault that these male clients decided to flirt with me.

Blaming an attractive person for being noticed is missing the point entirely.

Were you trying to attract the male clients or men in general by your attire?  

That's my point.

If you were then you are promoting them making such comments.  If not, then you didn't contribute to their behavior.

Your husband being attractive -
Did he wear something or act in a flirting manner to prompt such flirtation?

If not he didn't do anything wrong.  If so, he's part guilty.  

You're still assUming you know the intent of others, and blaming your own weakness on it. How can you know what goes on in the mind of another person who's simply standing in church and not talking to you? That's right, you can't. Only God can.

I don't know the intent of others at all and don't assume it at all.

I'm that people know their own intent.

If a woman sets out on her own, with her own intent do cause people to lust for her it is her own sin.

If a man lusts for her, it is his sin.
If he does not lust for her, there is no sin.

It has nothing to do with perception.
The man never knows the intent.  But the woman does know her intent. 

Hopefully this clarifies.
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« Reply #211 on: January 25, 2014, 11:39:00 PM »

Here's the thing. Just because someone is attractive, and is noticed by others, doesn't mean they are sinful and desiring said attention.

My husband drives a bus. The majority of his co-workers are fat and hideous. My husband is really, very, attractive. I have in the past, ridden his bus. About 50% of the women flirt with my husband. I don't fault my husband for this.

When I worked in a salon, my co-workers were 3 gay men. I had many male clients that chose me so they could flirt and make sexual comments at me (which they later regretted...I won't go into that). But it wasn't my fault that these male clients decided to flirt with me.

Blaming an attractive person for being noticed is missing the point entirely.

Were you trying to attract the male clients or men in general by your attire?  

That's my point.

If you were then you are promoting them making such comments.  If not, then you didn't contribute to their behavior.

Your husband being attractive -
Did he wear something or act in a flirting manner to prompt such flirtation?

If not he didn't do anything wrong.  If so, he's part guilty.  

You're still assUming you know the intent of others, and blaming your own weakness on it. How can you know what goes on in the mind of another person who's simply standing in church and not talking to you? That's right, you can't. Only God can.

I don't know the intent of others at all and don't assume it at all.

I'm that people know their own intent.

If a woman sets out on her own, with her own intent do cause people to lust for her it is her own sin.

If a man lusts for her, it is his sin.
If he does not lust for her, there is no sin.

It has nothing to do with perception.
The man never knows the intent.  But the woman does know her intent. 

Hopefully this clarifies.

No, it does not. You have a pathological view of what is modest/sinful attire, borne out of your obsession with it. Seriously, you need help.
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« Reply #212 on: January 25, 2014, 11:39:51 PM »

He is so used to every woman he is around being fully covered in a "modest" manner that he finds all other forms of dress distracting.

See, this is why every man should watch pornography. The long term affects will de-sensitize a man to the distraction that comes from seeing a naked or nearly naked woman in real life  Wink

Just kidding

In reality, I live in the Bay Area where North Faces and Ugg boots are the standard almost all year long, so there aren't much distractions, and in the few hot days of the year where there are distractions, no one wants to look because we're all hideously untanned.
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« Reply #213 on: January 25, 2014, 11:40:00 PM »

If makeup is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

You can't set me up like that.
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« Reply #214 on: January 25, 2014, 11:40:11 PM »

I think I kind of get what he is getting at. He is so used to every woman he is around being fully covered in a "modest" manner that he finds all other forms of dress distracting. But this is his personal issue, not one for society at large. Of course a man raised in the 1900's would find clothing very immodest if he was suddenly plunged into society today.


I live near Dallas Texas and am exposed to women all the time who don't dress Mennonite.  I believe men look more than you can possibly imagine.

Your original post was that you noticed things more after being around Mennonite dressed women. You seem to interpret this as sinful for some reason.

People can live in a nudist society, and still find themselves attracted to fully dressed women. So it has nothing to do with skin in those cases.


I personally don't like make-up. It makes me feel claustrophobic. I was educated in applying it very well, and even attained a license as an esthetician. But I still don't like it much. I will teach our daughters to apply it correctly. But since I don't wear make-up, I doubt they will. Clean and clear skin is better than any make-up. Besides, they all have such long/thick lashes that I doubt they could open their eyes if they wore mascara! LOL
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« Reply #215 on: January 25, 2014, 11:41:07 PM »

In reality, I live in the Bay Area where North Faces and Ugg boots are the standard almost all year long, so there aren't much distractions, and in the few hot days of the year where there are distractions, no one wants to look because we're all hideously untanned.

LOL!!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #216 on: January 25, 2014, 11:41:38 PM »

And no one has dealt with my observations/questions relating to prisons and internet dating.
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« Reply #217 on: January 25, 2014, 11:41:56 PM »

Why not be happy with who God made you to be, rather than buying into a wordly mentality of beauty?

Normally I'd agree, but given that I myself am attracted to expensive watches, colognes, and shoes when I have money, I'd be a hypocrite to call anyone else out on it.
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« Reply #218 on: January 25, 2014, 11:44:55 PM »

In reality, I live in the Bay Area where North Faces and Ugg boots are the standard almost all year long, so there aren't much distractions, and in the few hot days of the year where there are distractions, no one wants to look because we're all hideously untanned.

LOL!!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

It's true.

The whole Beach Boy, Surfer, perpetual Summer stereotype has really ruined California. For the most part, we're a pretty cold, cloudy state that's almost always Fall, at least in the Bay and northward. The Central Valley is a bit hotter, but it's depressing, full of career criminals on parole, and there are no beaches.

I can't speak on behalf of SoCal however.
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« Reply #219 on: January 25, 2014, 11:47:14 PM »

And no one has dealt with my observations/questions relating to prisons and internet dating.

What the heck? I'll play.

Yeah, you can be aroused just from talking to someone without even seeing them, occasionally not even hearing them.

When I lived in the Central Valley for Freshman year back in 2010, I was away from all my friends and only kept up with them via text and phone. I still felt very aroused and distracted when that certain someone would text me. It becomes a habit.
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« Reply #220 on: January 25, 2014, 11:47:36 PM »

You keep bringing it back to nuns for some reason I can not comprehend. Laity aren't called to monasticism. You wouldn't require that all men dress like monks in man-dresses. Why would you want female laity to dress like nuns?
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« Reply #221 on: January 25, 2014, 11:50:02 PM »

Precisely James. Arousal doesn't require being in the physical presence of the other person. Nor do they even have to write anything that is sexual. You are attracted because you are attracted.

As to sex drive; perfectly heterosexual people are sexually active in prisons without the presence of people of the opposite sex. Sometimes arousal has everything to do with the sex drive of the individual person, and nothing to do with the attractiveness of the people present.
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« Reply #222 on: January 25, 2014, 11:50:14 PM »

I think I kind of get what he is getting at. He is so used to every woman he is around being fully covered in a "modest" manner that he finds all other forms of dress distracting. But this is his personal issue, not one for society at large. Of course a man raised in the 1900's would find clothing very immodest if he was suddenly plunged into society today.


I live near Dallas Texas and am exposed to women all the time who don't dress Mennonite.  I believe men look more than you can possibly imagine.

Your original post was that you noticed things more after being around Mennonite dressed women. You seem to interpret this as sinful for some reason.

People can live in a nudist society, and still find themselves attracted to fully dressed women. So it has nothing to do with skin in those cases.


I personally don't like make-up. It makes me feel claustrophobic. I was educated in applying it very well, and even attained a license as an esthetician. But I still don't like it much. I will teach our daughters to apply it correctly. But since I don't wear make-up, I doubt they will. Clean and clear skin is better than any make-up. Besides, they all have such long/thick lashes that I doubt they could open their eyes if they wore mascara! LOL

Yes, after being around Mennonites for a good time period, I realized how much of a distraction there really was.  Not that the looks increased, but "started again".

When a woman wears a tight shirt, men look.  If 5 women wear tight shirts, men STILL look.
When no woman around wears a tight shirt, men often don't notice or not nearly as much.

When I went back into "the real world" - suddenly - it was a realization of how much I looked.

That's what I was getting at.

On the other subject:
I'm sure your daughters are the handwork of God,  and would have no need to paint up their faces.  I have 3 daughters, one a teen, and they too are the handwork of God - they have no need to let Barbie or fashion magazines convince them they are not pretty enough.  Smiley
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« Reply #223 on: January 25, 2014, 11:50:49 PM »

So would you deem wearing make-up immodest?

Smiley

Not immodest, but wrong, and against the writings of some early Christian authors who --- spoke of Roman women who wore their hair broided, with their faces painted with the juices of berries, and their bosoms partially exposed.  



So basically if you consider makeup wrong....are you not perhaps ascribing your opinion of it, to the motive of the wearer?

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« Reply #224 on: January 25, 2014, 11:52:29 PM »

So would you deem wearing make-up immodest?

Smiley

Not immodest, but wrong, and against the writings of some early Christian authors who --- spoke of Roman women who wore their hair broided, with their faces painted with the juices of berries, and their bosoms partially exposed.  



So basically if you consider makeup wrong....are you not perhaps ascribing your opinion of it, to the motive of the wearer?



Indeed.  Roll Eyes Tongue
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