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Author Topic: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me  (Read 11918 times) Average Rating: 0
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Quinault
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« Reply #135 on: January 24, 2014, 06:50:46 PM »

We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?
I never notice the bodies in church because I am constantly blinded by the heavenly glory of the angelic hosts present at the liturgy.

Or maybe because I'm spending the entire time praying my kids make it through another service without breaking anything.

One of those.

Yeah, that.
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« Reply #136 on: January 24, 2014, 07:22:26 PM »

For your reference: sex≠masturbation

For your information, I haven't punched the clown in 95 days and counting, thanks to this darn religion stuff not letting me enjoy my body and all.
LOL! It was worth readin through 3 pages of  this nonsense just to hear you say that James.

Well said. Grin
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« Reply #137 on: January 24, 2014, 08:31:36 PM »

I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 Undecided


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.
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« Reply #138 on: January 24, 2014, 08:48:44 PM »

On the original topic (I think), I have seen the flesh of a female buttock while "it" was approaching the Holy Gifts.  Maybe some middle ground is needed between that and the Little House on the Prairie attire. 

I can top that...I once saw a married couple in the middle of what can only be described as foreplay as they walked up to the chalice. 
me too, i've seen some heavy petting like that here in the us. in romania that wouldn't have happened (in church) for a host of reasons. I wasn't scandalized but i thought it was silly.

Wow.  I honestly thought I would hold the top prize for longer than that.  I concede that "heavy petting" beats "flesh of a buttock."   

Thank you for your honesty.  I don't believe men to be drooling and bumbling who "can't help it".   I do believe we can actively try to keep our minds focused.   There are men here that won't and apparently don't ever have their minds wander at all....

I guess I'm just not like that.  I most likely would have noticed the flesh of a buttock too.... But I may be worse, as I may notice tight shirts, tight dresses, and low cut shirts too.  Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

The thing I'm disagreeing with several people here about is when they blame the "man" for all of it.   Women *DO* sometimes try to bring attention to themselves in this manner.  We all know this.  In the scriptures it is said that people can cause others to sin.  I absolutely believe this.   

So I'm delving deep into the subject and taking the head covering issue further (which is why it seems radical).   When a woman wears a head covering in a manner to bring glory to herself as a style, this wasn't the intent of the head covering.

I agree that it doesn't have to be Little House on the Prairie.   But women should not be in competition with one another... Sisters in Christ should be concerned about their brothers in Christ falling.  Sisters in Christ should wear their head covering as the headship veiling of submission to God, and to save their glory for their worldly head, their husband.  The Mennonites are SORT OF similar to the nuns (from all of my observation being part of Orthodoxy for decades and being married to a Mennonite).  From my wife's testimony, there is no competition of clothing and that the sisters do speak to one another about modesty or if one sister seems to be getting "more liberal".  Like this, Nuns are not in competition and would certainly speak to their sisters if they got "more liberal".  The Mennonite women I can only say oddly seems to be like "family / mothers / wives" but kind of like nuns in an odd way.

For the Orthodox Christians, there are many laywomen like this who do indeed recognize the importance of modesty and not being in competition with their sisters.  In no way am I advocating that "Mennonites have dress right and EO wrong".   There are many Mennonites that dress more liberal.  It was an example of dress from a conservative group.  The Old Believer Orthodox would be another example.  I've also seen a lot of ROCOR photos where women dressed very respectfully and not in a luring way.

I will tell you though that the "little house on the prairie" look, often comes because they want to look similar and unchanging, non worldly, and from materials and labor from the USA.  They find it ironic to go beg God for mercy, yet wear clothes made by others who are "enslaved" financially.

Again, I do not judge the women in the photos that I posted, but merely making an observance.    The link photos are racy. (in fact there are way worse ones).
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« Reply #139 on: January 24, 2014, 08:51:11 PM »

We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?
I never notice the bodies in church because I am constantly blinded by the heavenly glory of the angelic hosts present at the liturgy.

Or maybe because I'm spending the entire time praying my kids make it through another service without breaking anything.

One of those.

Yeah, that.

Do the children participate in the liturgy?    Do they cause you not to be able to experience liturgy as you believe an EO Christian should?

It is amazing what a good spanking can do.  Just saying, from one parent (I have 5 children) to another.
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« Reply #140 on: January 24, 2014, 09:17:32 PM »

We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?
I never notice the bodies in church because I am constantly blinded by the heavenly glory of the angelic hosts present at the liturgy.

Or maybe because I'm spending the entire time praying my kids make it through another service without breaking anything.

One of those.

Yeah, that.

Do the children participate in the liturgy?    Do they cause you not to be able to experience liturgy as you believe an EO Christian should?

It is amazing what a good spanking can do.  Just saying, from one parent (I have 5 children) to another.
Of course they participate. But toddlers are squirmy nonetheless. I experience the liturgy just fine.

As it is, this is actually much less of an issue than perhaps I implied. Hyperbole and all that.

But it's funny that you as someone who advocates nonviolence as a primary Christian virtue would take such a position as to teach children that hitting is OK if you have the power.
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« Reply #141 on: January 24, 2014, 09:23:54 PM »

Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

This is where you're losing me, to be honest. I don't know what you're referring to, but I don't think it's wrong to notice someone else's attractiveness. I don't think you CAN help that. If you walk by someone who is attractive and you think, "Oh! He/she is attractive!", then you're just noticing something that just is, in the same way you might notice that they have brown hair or a red shirt on. That, I think, is different than noticing someone attractive and letting your imagination wander into lust.

My point is, if you have the first scenario in mind, then I think you're setting yourself up for failure.
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« Reply #142 on: January 24, 2014, 10:02:57 PM »

We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?
I never notice the bodies in church because I am constantly blinded by the heavenly glory of the angelic hosts present at the liturgy.

Or maybe because I'm spending the entire time praying my kids make it through another service without breaking anything.

One of those.

Yeah, that.

Do the children participate in the liturgy?    Do they cause you not to be able to experience liturgy as you believe an EO Christian should?

It is amazing what a good spanking can do.  Just saying, from one parent (I have 5 children) to another.

I have 6, and I disagree. Spanking isn't a catch all punishment. And spanking a child into behaving during liturgy is a baaaaaddddd idea.
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« Reply #143 on: January 24, 2014, 10:06:49 PM »

We have 6 kids between 12-0. I spend most of the liturgy walking our almost 2 year old around the Nave. The 12, 8, 6, and 4 year olds behave very well (in fact, I can trust them to behave alone while I tend to the baby/toddler in the cry room). The 8 month old just wants meal breaks every 2 hours on the dot. The 2 year old wants to kiss everything in his zeal. This isn't something I will punish him for. But it isn't something he is allowed to do at random. Kids belong in the Nave during liturgy. If you do it  correctly, your children won't want to be taken out of liturgy. And it won't be because they don't want a spank.
 
My goal isn't to make my children obedient or submissive. My goal is to teach my children what is proper behavior. There is a distinct difference between teaching, and making your child submissive. Teaching with only negative/physical/painful correction doesn't work with any living being, animal or human.
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« Reply #144 on: January 24, 2014, 10:08:51 PM »

Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

This is where you're losing me, to be honest. I don't know what you're referring to, but I don't think it's wrong to notice someone else's attractiveness. I don't think you CAN help that. If you walk by someone who is attractive and you think, "Oh! He/she is attractive!", then you're just noticing something that just is, in the same way you might notice that they have brown hair or a red shirt on. That, I think, is different than noticing someone attractive and letting your imagination wander into lust.

My point is, if you have the first scenario in mind, then I think you're setting yourself up for failure.

I agree. You can notice the beauty of a flower without having to fight all compulsion to pluck it. Noticing beauty isn't sinful.
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« Reply #145 on: January 24, 2014, 10:12:09 PM »

Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

This is where you're losing me, to be honest. I don't know what you're referring to, but I don't think it's wrong to notice someone else's attractiveness. I don't think you CAN help that. If you walk by someone who is attractive and you think, "Oh! He/she is attractive!", then you're just noticing something that just is, in the same way you might notice that they have brown hair or a red shirt on. That, I think, is different than noticing someone attractive and letting your imagination wander into lust.

My point is, if you have the first scenario in mind, then I think you're setting yourself up for failure.

I agree. You can notice the beauty of a flower without having to fight all compulsion to pluck it. Noticing beauty isn't sinful.

Seconded!

All too often, the real voices of sanity and reason here come from women like Quinault, ZZ, Liza Symonenko, and the two Katherines. Keep up the good work, ladies!
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« Reply #146 on: January 24, 2014, 10:21:09 PM »

And spanking a child into behaving during liturgy is a baaaaaddddd idea.
I dunno. Maybe there's something to helping a child make an unconscious connection between the liturgy and being verily smote.
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« Reply #147 on: January 24, 2014, 10:26:23 PM »

And spanking a child into behaving during liturgy is a baaaaaddddd idea.
I dunno. Maybe there's something to helping a child make an unconscious connection between the liturgy and being verily smote.


By his own admission yeshuaisiam was raised Orthodox. Maybe we know the source of the problem now Wink
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« Reply #148 on: January 24, 2014, 11:02:34 PM »

You could have pleasure possibly just for yourself.

That's really all I want, tbh. I'm hedonistic and not ashamed to admit it. Everyone else can keep all that emotional lovey-dovey romanticist stuff.
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« Reply #149 on: January 24, 2014, 11:11:53 PM »

You could have pleasure possibly just for yourself.

That's really all I want, tbh. I'm hedonistic and not ashamed to admit it. Everyone else can keep all that emotional lovey-dovey romanticist stuff.

Heh. In the not-too-distant future, you'll look back on what you've said here and cringe mightily.  Cheesy
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« Reply #150 on: January 24, 2014, 11:28:55 PM »

JamesR, if what you write is indeed the truth; you have greater problems than just hedoism. You should investigate whether or not you are sociopathic, or possibly have anti-social personality disorder. Although I suspect that you overstate your views for dramatic effect.
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« Reply #151 on: January 24, 2014, 11:44:12 PM »

You could have pleasure possibly just for yourself.

That's really all I want, tbh. I'm hedonistic and not ashamed to admit it. Everyone else can keep all that emotional lovey-dovey romanticist stuff.

This is not a novelty for a 17 year old male.
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« Reply #152 on: January 25, 2014, 12:03:01 AM »

On the original topic (I think), I have seen the flesh of a female buttock while "it" was approaching the Holy Gifts.  Maybe some middle ground is needed between that and the Little House on the Prairie attire. 

I can top that...I once saw a married couple in the middle of what can only be described as foreplay as they walked up to the chalice. 
me too, i've seen some heavy petting like that here in the us. in romania that wouldn't have happened (in church) for a host of reasons. I wasn't scandalized but i thought it was silly.

Wow.  I honestly thought I would hold the top prize for longer than that.  I concede that "heavy petting" beats "flesh of a buttock."   

Thank you for your honesty.  I don't believe men to be drooling and bumbling who "can't help it".   I do believe we can actively try to keep our minds focused.   There are men here that won't and apparently don't ever have their minds wander at all....

I guess I'm just not like that.  I most likely would have noticed the flesh of a buttock too.... But I may be worse, as I may notice tight shirts, tight dresses, and low cut shirts too.  Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

The thing I'm disagreeing with several people here about is when they blame the "man" for all of it.   Women *DO* sometimes try to bring attention to themselves in this manner.  We all know this.  In the scriptures it is said that people can cause others to sin.  I absolutely believe this.   

So I'm delving deep into the subject and taking the head covering issue further (which is why it seems radical).   When a woman wears a head covering in a manner to bring glory to herself as a style, this wasn't the intent of the head covering.

I agree that it doesn't have to be Little House on the Prairie.   But women should not be in competition with one another... Sisters in Christ should be concerned about their brothers in Christ falling.  Sisters in Christ should wear their head covering as the headship veiling of submission to God, and to save their glory for their worldly head, their husband.  The Mennonites are SORT OF similar to the nuns (from all of my observation being part of Orthodoxy for decades and being married to a Mennonite).  From my wife's testimony, there is no competition of clothing and that the sisters do speak to one another about modesty or if one sister seems to be getting "more liberal".  Like this, Nuns are not in competition and would certainly speak to their sisters if they got "more liberal".  The Mennonite women I can only say oddly seems to be like "family / mothers / wives" but kind of like nuns in an odd way.

For the Orthodox Christians, there are many laywomen like this who do indeed recognize the importance of modesty and not being in competition with their sisters.  In no way am I advocating that "Mennonites have dress right and EO wrong".   There are many Mennonites that dress more liberal.  It was an example of dress from a conservative group.  The Old Believer Orthodox would be another example.  I've also seen a lot of ROCOR photos where women dressed very respectfully and not in a luring way.

I will tell you though that the "little house on the prairie" look, often comes because they want to look similar and unchanging, non worldly, and from materials and labor from the USA.  They find it ironic to go beg God for mercy, yet wear clothes made by others who are "enslaved" financially.

Again, I do not judge the women in the photos that I posted, but merely making an observance.    The link photos are racy. (in fact there are way worse ones).

Given your avatar photo of the western macho man who could possibly elicit a less than pure thought even from under a headscarf, I find your post to be kind of funny.  I admit when I was younger that there was one cowboy with sky blue eyes who left me speechless with sheer masculine beauty.  Wholesome hardworking all weather tall strong and quiet good natured man with big muscles, high and tight blonde hair kind of stuck down with sweat when he pulled his hat off, mm, mm, mm.  Sigh.  Is it a sin to think about that?


Less funny though is that one of the ladies critiqued in your photo line-up could stumble into this thread and be hurt by it. 

Similar things have happened more than once on this forum. 

I also hope one of their fathers and brothers doesn't find it then want to kill you, or maybe run you down on horseback, rope you by the neck, throw you to the ground and tie you up for branding and that other activity that cowboys do to the calves (not heifers) come spring.  That would be a grave sin according to the Gospel, one that you led them into.

You've said such nice things about your wife on these forums, I'm glad you found a wife you are happy with.  Hope you can worry less about what other women are doing.  Maybe once your testosterone simmers down things will get easier for you.

Happy trails! 
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« Reply #153 on: January 25, 2014, 12:08:31 AM »

That's really all I want, tbh. I'm hedonistic and not ashamed to admit it. Everyone else can keep all that emotional lovey-dovey romanticist stuff.

I can suggest a couple books on ancient hedonists that are so incredibly boring that it will probably sour you to the entire concept, if you'd like to "cure yourself".  Tongue
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« Reply #154 on: January 25, 2014, 02:34:31 AM »

JamesR, if what you write is indeed the truth; you have greater problems than just hedoism. You should investigate whether or not you are sociopathic, or possibly have anti-social personality disorder. Although I suspect that you overstate your views for dramatic effect.

I don't think I'm overstating my views for dramatic affect, thank you very much. Yes, I do have greater problems than hedonism. I appreciate the concern. I have very many problems, mostly coming from my parents and my background. In fact, I recently moved out of my parents' home and I'm now living with my grandparents because I got tired of my mom unyieldingly slapping me across the face after an argument. I'm a very detached, somewhat cold person. Yes, I have trouble sympathizing with others, understanding my feelings, and dealing with emotion. This is especially true in regards to the opposite sex, where developing an "emotional" relationship with a woman seems about as odd and painful as tying anchors to each of my ears and jumping in the sea. Speaking out loud here, it's a shame that Shiny was banned. His views on women were true in many regards, at least from my unfortunate experiences with them. I probably am sociopathic and need to overcome my emotional barriers and detachment toward women. I am however working on this in therapy.
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« Reply #155 on: January 25, 2014, 03:17:30 AM »

I don't think you are nearly as detached or unfeeling as you think you are. You are just going thru a difficult time. And the sociopathic people I have met are much more functional than you are. I know that sounds like an insult, but really it isn't. There was an old poster on this site Greek is Christian that pulled off appearing sociopathic far better than you do. And even he wasn't a sociopath. You care far too much to really be as bad off as you seem to think you are. The sad part is that you sell yourself as an unfeeling and cruel automaton, and you really are anything but. If anything, I suspect that you feel certain things too strongly given your posting history.

I was given leave by numerous social workers and counselors to leave my home, and get emancipated. They were all willing to back me up in court. But in the end, toughing it out and moving out at 18 was just easier. I already lived with my grandmother since my parents lived with my grandmother, so I didn't have any other options. I am 35, and the relationship with my mother/step father is worse than it was as a teen, so we haven't spoken in two years since they started to be abusive to my kids. In short; I know dysfunctional parental relationships very well.

I hope you will stop making yourself out to be such a jerk, because really you aren't nearly as bad as you make yourself out to be . If I seem impatient and rude, it is because I have met, known, and even loved sociopathic people. I am even related to a few. And as much as you playact being emotionless, you are anything but. My patience for people that claim to be awful is just nil. You are a veritable lamb with a halo compared to the people I have known.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 03:22:36 AM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #156 on: January 25, 2014, 06:00:41 AM »

It may be fashionable to call the Pacific Northwest 'liberal' like it's a dirty word, but the Seattle Times ran an impressive story a couple of years ago, on headcoverings across religious and cultural traditions. If anything, it's made clear that there's no such thing as 'one size fits all'.

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« Reply #157 on: January 25, 2014, 06:25:04 AM »

I'd say around 1/3 of the women cover at some point in our parish. I used to wear a head covering. But when I am pregnant it is just too hot, even in the winter to wear a headcovering no matter how light it is. Liturgy is physical for most people at certain times of the year. Imagine how much hotter I am holding 1-2 kids the entire time! Smiley I'd like to get back to wearing a cover. But I can't do a long sleeve shirt and a cover, I get so hot I feel faint. I am too prone to heat exhaustion to risk it.
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« Reply #158 on: January 25, 2014, 07:06:27 AM »

I'd say around 1/3 of the women cover at some point in our parish. I used to wear a head covering. But when I am pregnant it is just too hot, even in the winter to wear a headcovering no matter how light it is. Liturgy is physical for most people at certain times of the year. Imagine how much hotter I am holding 1-2 kids the entire time! Smiley I'd like to get back to wearing a cover. But I can't do a long sleeve shirt and a cover, I get so hot I feel faint. I am too prone to heat exhaustion to risk it.

I wear a lacy headcovering. Now, some here have said that lacy=sexy, but at least the lacy headcovering can breathe, so I can tolerate the heat better. Furthermore, my headcovering does not have bling on it, and it is long so that it fully covers my head and hair.
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« Reply #159 on: January 25, 2014, 07:52:07 AM »

I've tried cotton gauze, as well as laces. Everything is just too hot. My hair is almost waist length, so that certainly factors in too though.
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« Reply #160 on: January 25, 2014, 10:06:46 AM »

JamesR, if what you write is indeed the truth; you have greater problems than just hedoism. You should investigate whether or not you are sociopathic, or possibly have anti-social personality disorder. Although I suspect that you overstate your views for dramatic effect.

You think? I raised three kids, drama is a major tool in any teen arsenal. Wink
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« Reply #161 on: January 25, 2014, 10:08:43 AM »

I've tried cotton gauze, as well as laces. Everything is just too hot. My hair is almost waist length, so that certainly factors in too though.

I never realized my grandmother had waist length hair until she had a stroke and was in the hospital. It was always in a tight, braided bun thing....
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« Reply #162 on: January 25, 2014, 10:53:09 AM »

JamesR, if what you write is indeed the truth; you have greater problems than just hedoism. You should investigate whether or not you are sociopathic, or possibly have anti-social personality disorder. Although I suspect that you overstate your views for dramatic effect.

You think? I raised three kids, drama is a major tool in any teen arsenal. Wink

Not that they would admit it, of course... Wink
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« Reply #163 on: January 25, 2014, 12:33:15 PM »

I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 Undecided


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.

If I find a good article, I'll try to remember to send you one.  The idea is that there is something inherently "dirty" or "sinful" about sex, to the point where the lusts of sex are somewhat of a necessary evil to propagate children, but in so doing, because of the act of sex, it propagates Original Sin as well.  Thus, his answer to why Christ was born of a Virgin was so that He would be born without Original Sin.  It's a very dark view, and not something you would read from a consensus of Church fathers at the time.  But given his past, one would sympathize with the view, but not necessarily agree with it.
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« Reply #164 on: January 25, 2014, 04:23:09 PM »

I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 Undecided


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.

If I find a good article, I'll try to remember to send you one.  The idea is that there is something inherently "dirty" or "sinful" about sex, to the point where the lusts of sex are somewhat of a necessary evil to propagate children, but in so doing, because of the act of sex, it propagates Original Sin as well.  Thus, his answer to why Christ was born of a Virgin was so that He would be born without Original Sin.  It's a very dark view, and not something you would read from a consensus of Church fathers at the time.  But given his past, one would sympathize with the view, but not necessarily agree with it.

That sounds about right. I just sold our complete works of Augustine, otherwise I would look it up and post quotes.
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« Reply #165 on: January 25, 2014, 05:04:33 PM »

Yes, over the course of the thirty five years of our camp, and I am sure at Antiochian Village as well, kids have been caught behaving inappropriately and have been sent home. Not many, but a few. So what? This proves exactly what I might ask?
Podkarpatska,

Church camps are known for being places where repressed teens hook up. This is not saying anything of Antiochian Village specifically (which I'm sure is somehow exempt from such regular indiscretions...) 

This is not due to a failure to maintain the fundamentals of church camp. This is a foreseeable and regular part of church camp; one might even say a necessary function of church camp in many American churches.
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« Reply #166 on: January 25, 2014, 05:13:24 PM »

Yes, over the course of the thirty five years of our camp, and I am sure at Antiochian Village as well, kids have been caught behaving inappropriately and have been sent home. Not many, but a few. So what? This proves exactly what I might ask?
Podkarpatska,

Church camps are known for being places where repressed teens hook up. This is not saying anything of Antiochian Village specifically (which I'm sure is somehow exempt from such regular indiscretions...) 

This is not due to a failure to maintain the fundamentals of church camp. This is a foreseeable and regular part of church camp; one might even say a necessary function of church camp in many American churches.

Male on male rape shouldn't be discounted nor male on male torture. I witnessed both at church camp. And I am pretty sure a few rather young girls were "deflowered" at the same camp by some of my peers against their will.

Good times. Then again, this wasn't really a church camp phenomenon per se as much as a small rural town phenomenon. Similar things went on in the schools I attended, the parties, etc. The sorta world those who watch Duck Dynasty romanticize. I am sure if the church camp had had animals, bestiality wold have happened as well.

I remember reading Lord of the Flies under duress and thinking it was rather underwhelming.

I guess hats were what were missing in the social order.
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« Reply #167 on: January 25, 2014, 07:10:21 PM »

I've tried cotton gauze, as well as laces. Everything is just too hot. My hair is almost waist length, so that certainly factors in too though.

Oh, yes.

I keep my hair shoulder length. Several times when it was longer, I got tangled in bed with it and my husband had to set me free, especially since he was lying on a few of my precious locks.  Grin
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« Reply #168 on: January 25, 2014, 07:28:03 PM »

Yes, over the course of the thirty five years of our camp, and I am sure at Antiochian Village as well, kids have been caught behaving inappropriately and have been sent home. Not many, but a few. So what? This proves exactly what I might ask?
Podkarpatska,

Church camps are known for being places where repressed teens hook up. This is not saying anything of Antiochian Village specifically (which I'm sure is somehow exempt from such regular indiscretions...) 

This is not due to a failure to maintain the fundamentals of church camp. This is a foreseeable and regular part of church camp; one might even say a necessary function of church camp in many American churches.

I acknowledged that in my prior post. But I would say it is more a function of teen angst and hormones than a 'necessary function of church camp in  many American churches.'
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« Reply #169 on: January 25, 2014, 07:35:34 PM »

I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 Undecided


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.

If I find a good article, I'll try to remember to send you one.  The idea is that there is something inherently "dirty" or "sinful" about sex, to the point where the lusts of sex are somewhat of a necessary evil to propagate children, but in so doing, because of the act of sex, it propagates Original Sin as well.  Thus, his answer to why Christ was born of a Virgin was so that He would be born without Original Sin.  It's a very dark view, and not something you would read from a consensus of Church fathers at the time.  But given his past, one would sympathize with the view, but not necessarily agree with it.

Is the bolded portion accurate?  I have rarely seen positive views on sex expressed by the early Church fathers.  It seems from what I've read that the "sex within marriage is a beautiful, almost sacred thing" view is more modern, at least in what has been written.  Perhaps I'm mistaken though.
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« Reply #170 on: January 25, 2014, 08:07:40 PM »

I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 Undecided


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.

If I find a good article, I'll try to remember to send you one.  The idea is that there is something inherently "dirty" or "sinful" about sex, to the point where the lusts of sex are somewhat of a necessary evil to propagate children, but in so doing, because of the act of sex, it propagates Original Sin as well.  Thus, his answer to why Christ was born of a Virgin was so that He would be born without Original Sin.  It's a very dark view, and not something you would read from a consensus of Church fathers at the time.  But given his past, one would sympathize with the view, but not necessarily agree with it.

Is the bolded portion accurate?  I have rarely seen positive views on sex expressed by the early Church fathers.  It seems from what I've read that the "sex within marriage is a beautiful, almost sacred thing" view is more modern, at least in what has been written.  Perhaps I'm mistaken though.
At the very least, the propagation of Original Sin as a result of sex is something I haven't come across a lot.  Usually, the Virgin birth was because Christ becoming the "first born of a new creation", not to "avoid Original Sin".

I understand the idea of "virginity" symbolizing "purity" is very common, but I don't think the idea of "sex" equating "sin" is.
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« Reply #171 on: January 25, 2014, 09:38:30 PM »

I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 Undecided


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.

If I find a good article, I'll try to remember to send you one.  The idea is that there is something inherently "dirty" or "sinful" about sex, to the point where the lusts of sex are somewhat of a necessary evil to propagate children, but in so doing, because of the act of sex, it propagates Original Sin as well.  Thus, his answer to why Christ was born of a Virgin was so that He would be born without Original Sin.  It's a very dark view, and not something you would read from a consensus of Church fathers at the time.  But given his past, one would sympathize with the view, but not necessarily agree with it.

Is the bolded portion accurate?  I have rarely seen positive views on sex expressed by the early Church fathers.  It seems from what I've read that the "sex within marriage is a beautiful, almost sacred thing" view is more modern, at least in what has been written.  Perhaps I'm mistaken though.
At the very least, the propagation of Original Sin as a result of sex is something I haven't come across a lot.  Usually, the Virgin birth was because Christ becoming the "first born of a new creation", not to "avoid Original Sin".

I understand the idea of "virginity" symbolizing "purity" is very common, but I don't think the idea of "sex" equating "sin" is.

Read Psalm 50 prayed at Sunday Matins or during the Paraclesis to the Theotokos:  "In sins did my mother conceive me."
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« Reply #172 on: January 25, 2014, 09:54:04 PM »

I've tried cotton gauze, as well as laces. Everything is just too hot. My hair is almost waist length, so that certainly factors in too though.

Oh, yes.

I keep my hair shoulder length. Several times when it was longer, I got tangled in bed with it and my husband had to set me free, especially since he was lying on a few of my precious locks.  Grin

When we were first married 17 years ago, my dear husband had long hair too. We often woke with our hair tangled together, which isn't nearly as romantic as it might sound. I wear my hair braided to bed now.
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« Reply #173 on: January 25, 2014, 10:24:37 PM »

We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?
I never notice the bodies in church because I am constantly blinded by the heavenly glory of the angelic hosts present at the liturgy.

Or maybe because I'm spending the entire time praying my kids make it through another service without breaking anything.

One of those.

Yeah, that.

Do the children participate in the liturgy?    Do they cause you not to be able to experience liturgy as you believe an EO Christian should?

It is amazing what a good spanking can do.  Just saying, from one parent (I have 5 children) to another.

I have 6, and I disagree. Spanking isn't a catch all punishment. And spanking a child into behaving during liturgy is a baaaaaddddd idea.

Great, so you disagree with me, yet you bold out and agree that your children are bad during liturgy and you don't want them to break something.

No sense in arguing.
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« Reply #174 on: January 25, 2014, 10:35:13 PM »

On the original topic (I think), I have seen the flesh of a female buttock while "it" was approaching the Holy Gifts.  Maybe some middle ground is needed between that and the Little House on the Prairie attire. 

I can top that...I once saw a married couple in the middle of what can only be described as foreplay as they walked up to the chalice. 
me too, i've seen some heavy petting like that here in the us. in romania that wouldn't have happened (in church) for a host of reasons. I wasn't scandalized but i thought it was silly.

Wow.  I honestly thought I would hold the top prize for longer than that.  I concede that "heavy petting" beats "flesh of a buttock."   

Thank you for your honesty.  I don't believe men to be drooling and bumbling who "can't help it".   I do believe we can actively try to keep our minds focused.   There are men here that won't and apparently don't ever have their minds wander at all....

I guess I'm just not like that.  I most likely would have noticed the flesh of a buttock too.... But I may be worse, as I may notice tight shirts, tight dresses, and low cut shirts too.  Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

The thing I'm disagreeing with several people here about is when they blame the "man" for all of it.   Women *DO* sometimes try to bring attention to themselves in this manner.  We all know this.  In the scriptures it is said that people can cause others to sin.  I absolutely believe this.   

So I'm delving deep into the subject and taking the head covering issue further (which is why it seems radical).   When a woman wears a head covering in a manner to bring glory to herself as a style, this wasn't the intent of the head covering.

I agree that it doesn't have to be Little House on the Prairie.   But women should not be in competition with one another... Sisters in Christ should be concerned about their brothers in Christ falling.  Sisters in Christ should wear their head covering as the headship veiling of submission to God, and to save their glory for their worldly head, their husband.  The Mennonites are SORT OF similar to the nuns (from all of my observation being part of Orthodoxy for decades and being married to a Mennonite).  From my wife's testimony, there is no competition of clothing and that the sisters do speak to one another about modesty or if one sister seems to be getting "more liberal".  Like this, Nuns are not in competition and would certainly speak to their sisters if they got "more liberal".  The Mennonite women I can only say oddly seems to be like "family / mothers / wives" but kind of like nuns in an odd way.

For the Orthodox Christians, there are many laywomen like this who do indeed recognize the importance of modesty and not being in competition with their sisters.  In no way am I advocating that "Mennonites have dress right and EO wrong".   There are many Mennonites that dress more liberal.  It was an example of dress from a conservative group.  The Old Believer Orthodox would be another example.  I've also seen a lot of ROCOR photos where women dressed very respectfully and not in a luring way.

I will tell you though that the "little house on the prairie" look, often comes because they want to look similar and unchanging, non worldly, and from materials and labor from the USA.  They find it ironic to go beg God for mercy, yet wear clothes made by others who are "enslaved" financially.

Again, I do not judge the women in the photos that I posted, but merely making an observance.    The link photos are racy. (in fact there are way worse ones).

Given your avatar photo of the western macho man who could possibly elicit a less than pure thought even from under a headscarf, I find your post to be kind of funny.  I admit when I was younger that there was one cowboy with sky blue eyes who left me speechless with sheer masculine beauty.  Wholesome hardworking all weather tall strong and quiet good natured man with big muscles, high and tight blonde hair kind of stuck down with sweat when he pulled his hat off, mm, mm, mm.  Sigh.  Is it a sin to think about that?


Less funny though is that one of the ladies critiqued in your photo line-up could stumble into this thread and be hurt by it. 

Similar things have happened more than once on this forum. 

I also hope one of their fathers and brothers doesn't find it then want to kill you, or maybe run you down on horseback, rope you by the neck, throw you to the ground and tie you up for branding and that other activity that cowboys do to the calves (not heifers) come spring.  That would be a grave sin according to the Gospel, one that you led them into.

You've said such nice things about your wife on these forums, I'm glad you found a wife you are happy with.  Hope you can worry less about what other women are doing.  Maybe once your testosterone simmers down things will get easier for you.

Happy trails! 

This makes no sense.  My avatar, you don't even see a face or skin in???  I simply chose it because I live on a farm.

The photos, why would their relatives care?  They are all over the internet, some on famous news sites!

Also trust me, at my age, my testosterone is plenty simmered down.   I am exploring the depths of sin, and how sisters in Christ can purposely dress for attention and cause brothers to stray or be distracted.

But yes, I am very happy with my wife. Smiley
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« Reply #175 on: January 25, 2014, 10:38:11 PM »

Yes, over the course of the thirty five years of our camp, and I am sure at Antiochian Village as well, kids have been caught behaving inappropriately and have been sent home. Not many, but a few. So what? This proves exactly what I might ask?
Podkarpatska,

Church camps are known for being places where repressed teens hook up. This is not saying anything of Antiochian Village specifically (which I'm sure is somehow exempt from such regular indiscretions...) 

This is not due to a failure to maintain the fundamentals of church camp. This is a foreseeable and regular part of church camp; one might even say a necessary function of church camp in many American churches.

Male on male rape shouldn't be discounted nor male on male torture. I witnessed both at church camp. And I am pretty sure a few rather young girls were "deflowered" at the same camp by some of my peers against their will.

Good times. Then again, this wasn't really a church camp phenomenon per se as much as a small rural town phenomenon. Similar things went on in the schools I attended, the parties, etc. The sorta world those who watch Duck Dynasty romanticize. I am sure if the church camp had had animals, bestiality wold have happened as well.

I remember reading Lord of the Flies under duress and thinking it was rather underwhelming.

I guess hats were what were missing in the social order.

WHAT?   What kind of church camp did you go to?  That's disturbing.
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« Reply #176 on: January 25, 2014, 10:40:34 PM »

I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 Undecided


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.

If I find a good article, I'll try to remember to send you one.  The idea is that there is something inherently "dirty" or "sinful" about sex, to the point where the lusts of sex are somewhat of a necessary evil to propagate children, but in so doing, because of the act of sex, it propagates Original Sin as well.  Thus, his answer to why Christ was born of a Virgin was so that He would be born without Original Sin.  It's a very dark view, and not something you would read from a consensus of Church fathers at the time.  But given his past, one would sympathize with the view, but not necessarily agree with it.

I believe that the sin of lust goes much further than people can imagine.  However, desiring one's spouse, I draw the line there.   So long as it is for mutuality and in love.  I would view a pregnancy as the gift and reward of that love within a marriage.
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« Reply #177 on: January 25, 2014, 10:44:04 PM »

I'd say around 1/3 of the women cover at some point in our parish. I used to wear a head covering. But when I am pregnant it is just too hot, even in the winter to wear a headcovering no matter how light it is. Liturgy is physical for most people at certain times of the year. Imagine how much hotter I am holding 1-2 kids the entire time! Smiley I'd like to get back to wearing a cover. But I can't do a long sleeve shirt and a cover, I get so hot I feel faint. I am too prone to heat exhaustion to risk it.

I wear a lacy headcovering. Now, some here have said that lacy=sexy, but at least the lacy headcovering can breathe, so I can tolerate the heat better. Furthermore, my headcovering does not have bling on it, and it is long so that it fully covers my head and hair.

I would not see lacy as sexy, but how the lacy is worn.  If it is meant to draw attention from men, then  would you see that as wrong?  (I doubt you would as you are married and all, but just saying)  If it is simply meant as a tool for "coolness" but you are honestly covering for the right reasons, that's wonderful!
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« Reply #178 on: January 25, 2014, 10:47:25 PM »

Quote
I would not see lacy as sexy, but how the lacy is worn.  If it is meant to draw attention from men, then  would you see that as wrong?  

And how does one discern for what effect "how the lace is worn"?

That's right, it's in the eye of the beholder. To the pure, all things are pure ....
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« Reply #179 on: January 25, 2014, 10:48:44 PM »

I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 Undecided


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.

If I find a good article, I'll try to remember to send you one.  The idea is that there is something inherently "dirty" or "sinful" about sex, to the point where the lusts of sex are somewhat of a necessary evil to propagate children, but in so doing, because of the act of sex, it propagates Original Sin as well.  Thus, his answer to why Christ was born of a Virgin was so that He would be born without Original Sin.  It's a very dark view, and not something you would read from a consensus of Church fathers at the time.  But given his past, one would sympathize with the view, but not necessarily agree with it.

Is the bolded portion accurate?  I have rarely seen positive views on sex expressed by the early Church fathers.  It seems from what I've read that the "sex within marriage is a beautiful, almost sacred thing" view is more modern, at least in what has been written.  Perhaps I'm mistaken though.
At the very least, the propagation of Original Sin as a result of sex is something I haven't come across a lot.  Usually, the Virgin birth was because Christ becoming the "first born of a new creation", not to "avoid Original Sin".

I understand the idea of "virginity" symbolizing "purity" is very common, but I don't think the idea of "sex" equating "sin" is.

Ok.  Actually, my first reply had something about "The Original Sin part of your comment aside, I have rarely seen positive views on sex expressed..."  So that makes more sense in this context.  I still think most fathers tended to speak negatively about sex though, making Augustine's view--again, excepting the Original Sin issue--less of an outlying position on this.
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