Author Topic: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me  (Read 81195 times)

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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #90 on: January 23, 2014, 10:33:55 PM »
Or perhaps the emotional fall-out from making such a choice at too young an age

There's nothing emotional about sex. It's no different than eating or drinking coffee. I could have sex with ten women and I wouldn't feel anything. Why do you think most of the world was polygamous prior to Christianity?

You have no idea what you would be like after sex, never having had it. Why do you think polygamous = no emotion? What a non sequitur.

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...or when the relationship inevitably goes awry and he doesn't want to see her hurt

She would be hurt regardless of whether or not she had sex

Probably. More-so if she did.

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...or any other out of the plethora of reasons a father might not want his teenage daughter to be sexually active.

Like what men think of her?


I have no idea what you're driving at here. You'll have to elaborate. Or don't. Either is fine.

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Offline JamesR

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #91 on: January 23, 2014, 10:35:31 PM »
There's nothing emotional about sex. It's no different than eating or drinking coffee. I could have sex with ten women and I wouldn't feel anything.
Aren't you a virgin?

Yeah, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that I wouldn't feel any emotion at all if I had sex with a woman--unless I already loved her, which is something I struggle to do given that I have a crazy mother and all.

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And while I'll pass the chance for a glib comment about eating, how the heck are you drinking coffee?

In a large mug, french pressed, with a sugar cube and powdered creamer, browsing the forums of oc.net from my grandmother's garage.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #92 on: January 23, 2014, 10:36:54 PM »
For your reference: sex≠masturbation

For your information, I haven't punched the clown in 95 days and counting, thanks to this darn religion stuff not letting me enjoy my body and all.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #93 on: January 23, 2014, 10:39:47 PM »
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For your reference: sex≠masturbation
the difference isn't all that radical either. a matter of number of hands. sometimes.
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Offline Quinault

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #94 on: January 23, 2014, 10:40:13 PM »
My point is that masturbation has no emotional effect (well, outside of possibly guilt I guess). Sex, has an emotional component. You can theorize that it doesn't, but that doesn't mean it is true.

My brother likes to play flight sims. He tried to go about learning to drive like he did flight sims. In theory, driving/flying in a video game can be very similar. In practice they aren't even close to the same. Teaching my brother to drive was frustrating precisely because he refused to think that sim driving and actual driving are different.

Offline Etsi

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2014, 10:40:57 PM »
It's not an obsession to raise your child with values and morals. It's not obsession to try and keep up with what is going on with your child, whether it be sexual activity or drug use or simply who they are hanging around. Yes, a parent has a right to know those things. In fact, according to various laws, parents are EXPECTED to know these things. Yes, the distasteful descriptions you gave of CERTAIN parents is obsessive and signals other issues. However, to presume that any parent that is concerned about their child or is actually involved in their child's life as a proactive parent is on the same level as such control-freaks is so far out there that I have to wonder what the heck is wrong with you to think that a parent has to be totally hands off and leave a thirteen year old's sexuality completely to themselves with no discussion or guidance. Did I say anything about worrying over a certain part of their anatomy? No. I stated that a parent should know what is going on with their child. No thirteen year old should be having sex. If they are then the parent NEEDS to know about it. If the parent doesn't want to know about it or doesn't care about it, then a) no wonder the thirteen year old might be having sex and b) what the heck is wrong with that parent?

Offline JamesR

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #96 on: January 23, 2014, 10:41:04 PM »
You have no idea what you would be like after sex, never having had it. Why do you think polygamous = no emotion? What a non sequitur.

You think that King Solomon cared about the emotions and feelings he had for his 700 something wives? No. He was simply looking for a fun time. Same goes for most extra-marital flings, polygamous societies, and all casual sexual encounters today.

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Probably. More-so if she did.

True; you're right there.

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I have no idea what you're driving at here. You'll have to elaborate. Or don't. Either is fine.

The point I'm driving is that I think this fatherly obsession over their daughters' virginity is a misogynistic convention that reduces her self-worth down to that of what men will think of her, as men--especially in religious circles--seem to have this fetish for virgins. I say up with these conventions. I don't want my daughter's self worth to be based off what men think of her.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #97 on: January 23, 2014, 10:42:05 PM »
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And while I'll pass the chance for a glib comment about eating, how the heck are you drinking coffee?

In a large mug, french pressed, with a sugar cube and powdered creamer, browsing the forums of oc.net from my grandmother's garage.
That is just like sex.  
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Offline Quinault

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #98 on: January 23, 2014, 10:42:15 PM »
Part of the problem with pornography and masturbation is it alters the way you approach sex. Masturbation/porn aren't akin to sex. Sex outside of marriage isn't the same as sex within marriage either in my experience.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #99 on: January 23, 2014, 10:44:52 PM »
Powdered creamer? That is a great way to destroy a good cup of coffee. Although if you are drinking pond scum like Gevalia, Starbucks, or Folgers, I guess you need something to mask the horrible taste. But powdered creamer? Ew!

Offline JamesR

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #100 on: January 23, 2014, 10:45:03 PM »
My point is that masturbation has no emotional effect (well, outside of possibly guilt I guess). Sex, has an emotional component. You can theorize that it doesn't, but that doesn't mean it is true.

How do you explain the casual sex that most of the West indulges in? No emotion there. I imagine the same attitude was prevalent in polygamous societies where people only cared about physical beauty and/or wealth and status. The notion of "soul-mates" and "love" and "emotional sex" is a rather new invention.

I'm 99% that I wouldn't feel any emotion. However, I concede that there is a tiny, tiiiny 0.1% chance that it might just strike some emotional cord inside of me and I'd break down in tears, but I highly doubt it.

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My brother likes to play flight sims. He tried to go about learning to drive like he did flight sims. In theory, driving/flying in a video game can be very similar. In practice they aren't even close to the same. Teaching my brother to drive was frustrating precisely because he refused to think that sim driving and actual driving are different.

The former was probably better than the real thing.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #101 on: January 23, 2014, 10:46:14 PM »
. Sex outside of marriage isn't the same as sex within marriage either in my experience.
i've only experience the outside of marriage variety. and  flings were more intense than ltr.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #102 on: January 23, 2014, 10:46:37 PM »
Part of the problem with pornography and masturbation is it alters the way you approach sex. Masturbation/porn aren't akin to sex.

Only I haven't been doing those things in upwards of 90 days so I'm not seeing your point.

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Sex outside of marriage isn't the same as sex within marriage either in my experience.

It's still sex though so what's the point here? I'm sensing that the No True Scotsman is peeking its eery head.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #103 on: January 23, 2014, 10:47:02 PM »
What bothers me about this whole thread is that we are  speculating as to their ability to induce lustful thoughts girls who are somebody's daughters, that is, real people, who do not deserve to be the topic of this kind of conversation.  They probably never asked to have their photos put on the Internet and they certainly didn't ask to have their photos submitted to us for our approval of their apparel.  

Sometimes we get so used to the Internet that we lose all sense of appropriateness.

I agree! That's what I was trying to say earlier when I said it was uncomfortable to read, but you said it much better.

First you guys are Orthodox, that means you are in communion with these people.  You should be concerned about what your brothers and sisters are up to.

Secondly, I don't see the point of the internet photo thing.  If they were willing to be like that in front of their church, it probably doesn't matter.

For the sake of rules, I didn't post the photo of the lady at the epiphany who wore a white shirt with nothing underneath.  Full reveal of everything, right there in front of her church.

We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.  In fact, this thread is a spin off of another thread that holds scrutiny of tradition.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #104 on: January 23, 2014, 10:47:18 PM »
But powdered creamer? Ew!

It's much better than that refrigerated half-n-half stuff that only makes the coffee cold.

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #105 on: January 23, 2014, 10:49:44 PM »
You think that King Solomon cared about the emotions and feelings he had for his 700 something wives? No. He was simply looking for a fun time.

I have no idea what he thought about them, but I think you'd be wrong if you think he felt nothing for any of them.

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Same goes for most extra-marital flings, polygamous societies, and all casual sexual encounters today.

I'd venture to guess that most extra-marital flings are very emotional, first of all. And I don't think you can classify a polygamous marriage with a casual sexual encounter. But even there, sex complicates things. What starts out as casual can quickly become emotional.

Frankly: you're wrong that sex isn't emotional. You don't know that you're wrong yet, but you will one day.


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The point I'm driving is that I think this fatherly obsession over their daughters' virginity is a misogynistic convention that reduces her self-worth down to that of what men will think of her, as men--especially in religious circles--seem to have this fetish for virgins. I say up with these conventions. I don't want my daughter's self worth to be based off what men think of her.

As well you shouldn't. I think it is possible that it's misogynistic in some cases, as I said. I think in most cases, it has nothing to do with misogyny or fear of how men will perceive her, but actually comes from *gasp!* caring about his daughter.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #106 on: January 23, 2014, 10:50:21 PM »
I think I'm going to add a new variant of Orthodox Godwin's law, specific to OC.net:

The longer a discussion about "modesty" continues on OC.net, the closer the probability masturbation will come up approaches 1.


We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.
We should care about our own sins and not give two thoughts to what some parish in Russia is doing.

You had to go looking for that. Which is the worse offense, the one who doesn't meet a certain modicum of modesty, or the one who goes out of their way to point it out for no sake other than to judge?
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #107 on: January 23, 2014, 10:51:07 PM »
Although if you are drinking pond scum like Gevalia, Starbucks, or Folgers, I guess you need something to mask the horrible taste. But powdered creamer? Ew!

Oh Quinault... and I had always liked you...  :(

 ;)
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #108 on: January 23, 2014, 10:53:36 PM »
First you guys are Orthodox, that means you are in communion with these people.

I am not Orthodox, actually.

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You should be concerned about what your brothers and sisters are up to.

Secondly, I don't see the point of the internet photo thing.  If they were willing to be like that in front of their church, it probably doesn't matter.

How do you figure? Willing to be seen a certain way in front of a group of people you know does not translate into willing to be judged and scrutinized by over-zealous internet strangers.

You want your belt to buckle, not your chair.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #109 on: January 23, 2014, 10:54:00 PM »
The difference is commitment and vulnerability.

Sex is messy, loud, and sometimes downright embarrassing and funny. Porn makes everyone look perfect at all times. The camera angle is just right, the lighting is perfect, no hair out of place. The reality is that no one looks that good while actually ENJOYING themselves having sex.

You can't have vulnerability and trust without commitment. You could have pleasure possibly just for yourself. But real pleasure is in give and receiving pleasure, not just taking it. Hooking up is about instant gratification, scratching an itch. It causes relief like scratching poison ivy. It doesn't deal with the source of the issue. Marriage deals with the source of the issue. Sex and foreplay aren't in the moments leading up to, and during intercourse. Sex and foreplay are LIFE. Daily life is what makes sex more or less enjoyable. When couples "lose the spark" in their sex lives, it is a symptom of a systemic problem in the marriage, not the cause of the problem in the marriage.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #110 on: January 23, 2014, 10:55:11 PM »
But powdered creamer? Ew!

It's much better than that refrigerated half-n-half stuff that only makes the coffee cold.

Hence why you don't add cold cream to coffee ;)

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #111 on: January 24, 2014, 07:43:06 AM »

Did you notice the very unhappy, not too sober, expressions on many of Mennonite women in that picture?
What was going on? Have they just finished quarreling? The woman standing in the front (far right side) wearing the very light print dress in turquoise looks like she is being pushed as she is preventing the woman behind her from being seen. Notice the hand touching her on her left arm.


It strikes me as very strange how thoroughly you analyzed this picture and everyone in it, determining levels of happiness, speculating on quarrels, reading into body language, etc.  I think if someone were to scrutinize your comments, they might pass similar judgment about your level of Christian serenity.

Sorry to frequently pick on you, Maria.  I find a great deal in this thread odd.  

If you are truly sorry, why post at all?

It's nothing personal.  Your posts tend to elicit responses from me though.

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Body language, hand gestures, and eye, and head movements were part of my linguistic studies leading to my M.A. I found it fascinating that what we write only communicates part of the message.

If a person were to tell me that they were happy, but their eyes were doing  ::) and their head was shaking "no" and they had daggers in their eyes along with an unhappy face  >:(, then I would have to assume that they were in fact NOT very happy but for some reason,  they could not truthfully express the full message perhaps because of peer pressure or whatever.

I hate to imagine how my facial and body language reflects on Orthodox Christianity.  Good thing I keep my snarling mug off of the world wide internet. 

Elder Hieromonk Paisius (Moldova) looked pretty miserable as well, so maybe I'm destined for greatness.





On the original topic (I think), I have seen the flesh of a female buttock while "it" was approaching the Holy Gifts.  Maybe some middle ground is needed between that and the Little House on the Prairie attire. 
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #112 on: January 24, 2014, 08:25:51 AM »
The oddest part is, they are swimming in ICE WATER.  What does it matter if they wear clothes rather than skimpies?  Think about it.

Oddest part is, although some of these ladies are lovely, I didn't get tempted.  I was more tempted by your all caps WARNINGS.

Also, it's easier to get out of the water when you don't have a big coat on, as well as easier to get warmed up afterwards.  I take it you've never fallen fully-clothed in ice water.  Think about it.
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #113 on: January 24, 2014, 08:49:09 AM »
You think that King Solomon cared about the emotions and feelings he had for his 700 something wives? No. He was simply looking for a fun time.

I have no idea what he thought about them, but I think you'd be wrong if you think he felt nothing for any of them.

A man doesn't build temples to false gods for women he doesn't care about.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #114 on: January 24, 2014, 08:57:40 AM »
Eh NVM
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 09:00:28 AM by Iconodule »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #115 on: January 24, 2014, 08:58:45 AM »
You think that King Solomon cared about the emotions and feelings he had for his 700 something wives? No. He was simply looking for a fun time.

I have no idea what he thought about them, but I think you'd be wrong if you think he felt nothing for any of them.

A man doesn't build temples to false gods for women he doesn't care about.

Still happens today.
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Offline mike

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #116 on: January 24, 2014, 11:25:36 AM »
i've never been to a church camp.

I feel sorry for you.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #117 on: January 24, 2014, 11:25:36 AM »
Kids are having sex at church camps. At least that's what a Serbian friend was saying they were doing.

Yeah. I personally know a few of offsprings.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #118 on: January 24, 2014, 11:33:55 AM »
The one in teal scarf is hot.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #119 on: January 24, 2014, 11:33:55 AM »
It's a pagan custom. But I wouldn't mind participating in Epiphany with some pretty ladies in bikinis.
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #120 on: January 24, 2014, 01:03:11 PM »
We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #121 on: January 24, 2014, 01:33:41 PM »
We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?

You go, girl. 
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #122 on: January 24, 2014, 01:37:20 PM »
We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?
I never notice the bodies in church because I am constantly blinded by the heavenly glory of the angelic hosts present at the liturgy.

Or maybe because I'm spending the entire time praying my kids make it through another service without breaking anything.

One of those.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #123 on: January 24, 2014, 01:40:47 PM »
The oddest part is, they are swimming in ICE WATER.  What does it matter if they wear clothes rather than skimpies?  Think about it.

Well, I don't swim, I don't know how.  But I imagine that it's much easier to maneuver in ice cold water without layers of clothing than it is while dressed as a Mennonite woman (just washing my hands in cold water stiffens them up, I can't imagine trying to swim in it).  You would've made a better argument if you focused on how priests wearing vestments and using gold crosses while blessing water on Epiphany so that people can take a dip is a post-Constantine ritualistic practice not found in the NT or in the first two Christian centuries.  And considering how thoroughly ludicrous I think that argument is, you should have some idea of what I think of the idea above.  Think about it.  
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #124 on: January 24, 2014, 01:42:27 PM »
But to be honest, go on any site and look at men asking "what do women find attractive in a man" the answer "depends on personality".  Just about everything deals with a personality THEN to looks....

Men, looks.  Period.... Later personality.

LOL. 
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #125 on: January 24, 2014, 01:47:56 PM »
There's nothing emotional about sex. It's no different than eating or drinking coffee. I could have sex with ten women and I wouldn't feel anything.
Aren't you a virgin?

Yeah, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that I wouldn't feel any emotion at all if I had sex with a woman--unless I already loved her, which is something I struggle to do given that I have a crazy mother and all.

Again, you'd be better off not making comments like this.  
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 01:48:11 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #126 on: January 24, 2014, 01:51:25 PM »
You think that King Solomon cared about the emotions and feelings he had for his 700 something wives? No. He was simply looking for a fun time.

I have no idea what he thought about them, but I think you'd be wrong if you think he felt nothing for any of them.

Quote
Same goes for most extra-marital flings, polygamous societies, and all casual sexual encounters today.

I'd venture to guess that most extra-marital flings are very emotional, first of all. And I don't think you can classify a polygamous marriage with a casual sexual encounter. But even there, sex complicates things. What starts out as casual can quickly become emotional.

Frankly: you're wrong that sex isn't emotional. You don't know that you're wrong yet, but you will one day.


Quote
The point I'm driving is that I think this fatherly obsession over their daughters' virginity is a misogynistic convention that reduces her self-worth down to that of what men will think of her, as men--especially in religious circles--seem to have this fetish for virgins. I say up with these conventions. I don't want my daughter's self worth to be based off what men think of her.

As well you shouldn't. I think it is possible that it's misogynistic in some cases, as I said. I think in most cases, it has nothing to do with misogyny or fear of how men will perceive her, but actually comes from *gasp!* caring about his daughter.

You win. 
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #127 on: January 24, 2014, 01:52:09 PM »

We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.
We should care about our own sins and not give two thoughts to what some parish in Russia is doing.

You had to go looking for that. Which is the worse offense, the one who doesn't meet a certain modicum of modesty, or the one who goes out of their way to point it out for no sake other than to judge?

You also win. 
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #128 on: January 24, 2014, 01:54:36 PM »
On the original topic (I think), I have seen the flesh of a female buttock while "it" was approaching the Holy Gifts.  Maybe some middle ground is needed between that and the Little House on the Prairie attire. 

I can top that...I once saw a married couple in the middle of what can only be described as foreplay as they walked up to the chalice. 
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #129 on: January 24, 2014, 01:58:22 PM »
On the original topic (I think), I have seen the flesh of a female buttock while "it" was approaching the Holy Gifts.  Maybe some middle ground is needed between that and the Little House on the Prairie attire. 

I can top that...I once saw a married couple in the middle of what can only be described as foreplay as they walked up to the chalice. 
me too, i've seen some heavy petting like that here in the us. in romania that wouldn't have happened (in church) for a host of reasons. I wasn't scandalized but i thought it was silly.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #130 on: January 24, 2014, 02:18:55 PM »
I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 :-\

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #131 on: January 24, 2014, 02:26:43 PM »
I wasn't scandalized but i thought it was silly.

It really is. 
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #132 on: January 24, 2014, 02:29:14 PM »
I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

Actually, following in the example of one of my teachers, I have more sympathy for the Lord:

Quote
Genesis 6

5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #133 on: January 24, 2014, 02:40:45 PM »
Elder Hieromonk Paisius (Moldova) looked pretty miserable as well, so maybe I'm destined for greatness.



That's become his "canonical" pose. He was a bit short-sighted IIRC - there is a funny picture of him wearing glasses, but I can't find it anywhere online.

Anyways, those who knew him personally say he was as gentle a spiritual father as they come. 

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #134 on: January 24, 2014, 03:47:50 PM »
On the original topic (I think), I have seen the flesh of a female buttock while "it" was approaching the Holy Gifts.  Maybe some middle ground is needed between that and the Little House on the Prairie attire. 

I can top that...I once saw a married couple in the middle of what can only be described as foreplay as they walked up to the chalice. 
me too, i've seen some heavy petting like that here in the us. in romania that wouldn't have happened (in church) for a host of reasons. I wasn't scandalized but i thought it was silly.

Wow.  I honestly thought I would hold the top prize for longer than that.  I concede that "heavy petting" beats "flesh of a buttock."   
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.