Author Topic: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me  (Read 72195 times)

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Offline LBK

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #945 on: June 05, 2014, 12:15:20 AM »

Maria, those words are not mine, but Yesh's.  :police:

If you quoted them, they become yours!

Does that mean that everything you have quoted on this forum which was posted by others are your words? Yes or no?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #946 on: June 05, 2014, 12:15:43 AM »

Maria, those words are not mine, but Yesh's.  :police:

If you quoted them, they become yours!

My goodness, that's ridiculous.
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Offline Maria

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #947 on: June 05, 2014, 12:18:39 AM »
http://jezebel.com/5933020/ultra-orthodox-men-now-wearing-special-blinders-to-avoid-seeing-sexy-things

Quote
Feeling tempted by scantily-dressed women on the bus, or sexy billboards by the side of the road? If you're an ultra-Orthodox man in Israel, you're in luck: you can now buy special blinders to prevent sin-enticing images from sneaking into your peripheral vision. As the Times of Israel reported yesterday, an organization called The Committee for Purity in the Camp is selling special stickers that the observant-but-easily-vulnerable-to-lady-business can wear on their eyeglasses. The stickers "blur vision of anything beyond the range of a few meters and so diffuse immodestly dressed women to a harmless blot." (If you don't wear glasses, the Purity Committee sells a non-prescription pair with stickers for the soul-saving bargain price of around $32.)
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #948 on: June 05, 2014, 12:18:52 AM »
Yesh, in the early pages of this thread you posted numerous pictures of young women with hair completely covered, and modestly dressed which would easily pass muster in any Orthodox church. Yet you posted them not as examples of proper modest appearance, but you took issue with such things as "small holes in the sleeves" and lacy headcoverings:


Also, I am going to be fair and NOT post photos of "super models in coverings slothered in make up", but "real women".


For me this would represent young women dressed fairly conservatively.  The one on the left and center seem to be attempting modesty.  The one on the right, covers her head and neck, but leaves a low cut shirt exposed.   Does this make sense?   The other two however, appear to have rather tight clothing, would this cause distraction to any other guys here?   The color of head covering can even cause distraction.   Would these girls compete with head coverings, clothes, etc., with their sisters in Christ?  Do they want to stand out?

Next:


Would this outfit cause you distraction men?  Semi-tight and see through holes on the sleeves?  Though conservative, there is a lot of neck showing.  NO not low cut.  But would it cause you to be distracted in church?

Next:

Is a black lace veil that matches an outfit and worn this way being used to "enhance" her beauty?  Note the "bling" on the veil, and that it matches the lace on the low cut bust area.  Would this be distracting for you men?  Women do you see this as a submission to God and for modesty, or to give an accessory to an outfit?  (Not judging to young lady, I respect she even covers)


In later posts, you spoke of "glimpses of back flesh under buttons".

Face it, Yesh. More than twenty-one pages later, you still are putting all the burden on women, blaming them for your inability and unwillingness to control your thoughts in their presence.

St. Clement of Alexandria stated that women who uncover their faces can invite another to fall into sin.
It's in his own writing that I cited and sourced.

The original argument that I made is not invalid in this sense.   If a woman can invite another to fall into sin by uncovering her face (as St. Clement said), as a male, tight shirts & pants, low cut shirts, lace, etc. - how can that not?

While I AGREE with you there is nothing in a worldly sense BAD about how these women are dressed, and that they absolutely would be fine in most parishes, there are monasteries and Saints who cite that low cut tops, skin tight clothes, and immodesty can invite men to fall into sin.

I never blamed them, and I don't think the monasteries or St. Clement of Alexandria blamed women for the issue.

Men clearly fall.  Women can help men to not fall by covering up.  The thread point was giving an example of the "small ways men can fall".
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #949 on: June 05, 2014, 12:21:29 AM »
You are right that I'm assuming that he mean "entirely covered" meant "entirely covered".  When he speaks of men being invited to fall into sin when a woman uncovers it.

And yet, a few lines later, he only mentions veiling...

Quote
On a personal note, it is not a biblical writing either, but it holds a lot of weight in my opinion.  I do not believe that a woman should cover her face.  It was more of a point that he believed women can invite men to fall into sin.

...and here you apparently disagree with your understanding of Clement's teaching, which is funny considering you are trying to hold us to it.  

Again, this is all about you.  Not about Jesus, not about Peter and Paul, not about Clement, not about Constantine, not about "sisters who should help their brothers", not about anyone except yeshuaisiam.    
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #950 on: June 05, 2014, 12:22:39 AM »

Maria, those words are not mine, but Yesh's.  :police:

If you quoted them, they become yours!

My goodness, that's ridiculous.

Yes, but in some instances it is true.  For example, this one. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #951 on: June 05, 2014, 12:23:32 AM »
Men clearly fall.  Women can help men to not fall by covering up.

You are fascinated by a woman's back flesh.  Why do you blame the woman for your back flesh problem?  It's like blaming the actors in a porn movie for one's porn addiction.

The thread point was giving an example of the "small ways men can fall".

What about the women?   >:(

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #952 on: June 05, 2014, 12:23:44 AM »
http://jezebel.com/5933020/ultra-orthodox-men-now-wearing-special-blinders-to-avoid-seeing-sexy-things

Quote
Feeling tempted by scantily-dressed women on the bus, or sexy billboards by the side of the road? If you're an ultra-Orthodox man in Israel, you're in luck: you can now buy special blinders to prevent sin-enticing images from sneaking into your peripheral vision. As the Times of Israel reported yesterday, an organization called The Committee for Purity in the Camp is selling special stickers that the observant-but-easily-vulnerable-to-lady-business can wear on their eyeglasses. The stickers "blur vision of anything beyond the range of a few meters and so diffuse immodestly dressed women to a harmless blot." (If you don't wear glasses, the Purity Committee sells a non-prescription pair with stickers for the soul-saving bargain price of around $32.)

LOL. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline LBK

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #953 on: June 05, 2014, 12:24:09 AM »
Again, this is all about you.  Not about Jesus, not about Peter and Paul, not about Clement, not about Constantine, not about "sisters who should help their brothers", not about anyone except yeshuaisiam.    

Truer words were rarely spoken.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Maria

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #954 on: June 05, 2014, 12:26:57 AM »
Again, this is all about you.  Not about Jesus, not about Peter and Paul, not about Clement, not about Constantine, not about "sisters who should help their brothers", not about anyone except yeshuaisiam.[/size]   [/b]

Truer words were rarely spoken.

You do not need to shout!
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #955 on: June 05, 2014, 12:31:01 AM »
Here are some HORSE BLINDERS for men.
https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=Horse+blinders+for+men&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8



Here is another human blinder:



Here are some more:



Perhaps it is easier for men to wear blinders.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 12:33:50 AM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #956 on: June 05, 2014, 12:33:27 AM »
I think the blinders are

A.) Lazy. I know it takes some effort, but if you work on your purity of heart and you won't need blinders.
B.) An excellent way to wear your Pharisee.
You want your belt to buckle, not your chair.

Offline Maria

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #957 on: June 05, 2014, 12:34:39 AM »
I think the blinders are

A.) Lazy. I know it takes some effort, but if you work on your purity of heart and you won't need blinders.
B.) An excellent way to wear your Pharisee.

Well, it might give women pause ....

Could the women be lazy for not wanting to cover?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 12:35:14 AM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #958 on: June 05, 2014, 12:35:41 AM »
You are right that I'm assuming that he mean "entirely covered" meant "entirely covered".  When he speaks of men being invited to fall into sin when a woman uncovers it.

And yet, a few lines later, he only mentions veiling...

Quote
On a personal note, it is not a biblical writing either, but it holds a lot of weight in my opinion.  I do not believe that a woman should cover her face.  It was more of a point that he believed women can invite men to fall into sin.

...and here you apparently disagree with your understanding of Clement's teaching, which is funny considering you are trying to hold us to it.  

Again, this is all about you.  Not about Jesus, not about Peter and Paul, not about Clement, not about Constantine, not about "sisters who should help their brothers", not about anyone except yeshuaisiam.    

It mentions both veiling and covering of the face.

Mor, this is about the worship of God, and learning and adhering to his words.  "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

I'm not a practicing EO Christian.  If I was I should be held to the tradition that seems to supercede the scriptures.  As I stated, it is not biblical to cover a face.   But here you have a tradition... What do you go with?

The Bible - Women veil, no jewelry or costly array, no braids, modest
Tradition - Women veil, women cover their face, entirely covered

Or do women tend to go with neither in the church - Biblical OR Tradition?  Just saying.

The main point of this was to show a saint saying women can invite men to fall into sin - which I was ridiculed for because people said "I was blaming women".   The monastery rules said the same exact thing that women can cause men to fall into lust.

I don't really even see an argument here.  If the Bible calls for modesty (by their standard) and an Orthodox Saint states it AND EO Monasteries state it - I don't understand why EO Christians are arguing it. Again the irony is absolutely wild as it comes directly from sources EO Christians should hold strong to.

It's not about ME. I don't adhere to EO tradition completely, but want to adhere to biblical standards.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #959 on: June 05, 2014, 12:38:16 AM »
I think the blinders are

A.) Lazy. I know it takes some effort, but if you work on your purity of heart and you won't need blinders.
B.) An excellent way to wear your Pharisee.

Well, it might give women pause ....

Could the women be lazy for not wanting to cover?


Maria, Yesh has repeatedly expressed that even veiled and modestly-dressed women are capable of causing him to "fall", such as those in the photos in his post I quoted earlier, and in this memorable phrase:

Quote
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress
(from http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,56264.msg1134534.html#msg1134534)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 12:38:53 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #960 on: June 05, 2014, 12:38:41 AM »
I think the blinders are

A.) Lazy. I know it takes some effort, but if you work on your purity of heart and you won't need blinders.
B.) An excellent way to wear your Pharisee.

Well, it might give women pause ....

Could the women be lazy for not wanting to cover?


I don't know if laziness would be my first guess for why, but I'm sure that could be a reason for somebody somewhere.

At the end of the day, I think some women dress inappropriately, and some guys would leer at anything. I think everyone would be better off if they looked to themselves.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #961 on: June 05, 2014, 12:46:29 AM »
Again, this is all about you.  Not about Jesus, not about Peter and Paul, not about Clement, not about Constantine, not about "sisters who should help their brothers", not about anyone except yeshuaisiam.[/size]   [/b]

Truer words were rarely spoken.

You do not need to shout!

Well it is a debate area of the forum.

I'm glad I am teaching them about the church.

If you noticed through this long thread (which I sort of regret bringing up), that I'm the one bringing up EO sources, scripture, quotes from EO saints, EO links, etc.   Nobody else did speaking contrary.   Where are the EO sources that say skin tight shirts, low cut shirts, etc., are okay.  Not one person posted something like that.

It is mostly ridicule.  It's okay though.

Now I am being blamed for my own self causes and selfishness (basically).  Before I was blaming women.  Before I was a pervert.  Before I was hypersexualizing stuff.

All I continually said is "I'm a man that glances and eyes wander" (not drooling) and that sisters (even those who believe they are modestly dressed) may want to consider a few ways men (like me) could fall.  

Women can help guys like me.  I hope any woman reading this thread will see that some men struggle with wandering eyes and will help out their brothers in Christ.  

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #962 on: June 05, 2014, 12:53:07 AM »
I think the blinders are

A.) Lazy. I know it takes some effort, but if you work on your purity of heart and you won't need blinders.
B.) An excellent way to wear your Pharisee.

Well, it might give women pause ....

Could the women be lazy for not wanting to cover?


Maria, Yesh has repeatedly expressed that even veiled and modestly-dressed women are capable of causing him to "fall", such as those in the photos in his post I quoted earlier, and in this memorable phrase:

Quote
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress
(from http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,56264.msg1134534.html#msg1134534)


Yes it's what I said.

St. Clement of Alexandria said women who uncover their face invite people to fall.  I don't see how my statement was ridiculous, nor my OP.

While I know you respect St. Clement (I hope so anyway), wouldn't his statement be more extreme to you?

In my example and photos, some had low cut shirts and skin tight shirts...  Women with flesh showing through (albeit back flesh)...   St. Clement said "entirely covered" even speaking of their face. 

I guess I find the basic ridicule of my statements ironic.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #963 on: June 05, 2014, 12:55:06 AM »
You are right that I'm assuming that he mean "entirely covered" meant "entirely covered".  When he speaks of men being invited to fall into sin when a woman uncovers it.

And yet, a few lines later, he only mentions veiling...

Quote
On a personal note, it is not a biblical writing either, but it holds a lot of weight in my opinion.  I do not believe that a woman should cover her face.  It was more of a point that he believed women can invite men to fall into sin.

...and here you apparently disagree with your understanding of Clement's teaching, which is funny considering you are trying to hold us to it.  

Again, this is all about you.  Not about Jesus, not about Peter and Paul, not about Clement, not about Constantine, not about "sisters who should help their brothers", not about anyone except yeshuaisiam.    

It mentions both veiling and covering of the face.

That was a nice evasion, but my point still stands.  You claim Clement teaches X, criticise us for allegedly rejecting X, and then you reject X.  That's stupid.

Quote
I'm not a practicing EO Christian.  If I was I should be held to the tradition that seems to supercede the scriptures.  As I stated, it is not biblical to cover a face.   But here you have a tradition... What do you go with?

The Church (which teaches us how to make sense of these).  But you reject the Teacher, so it's no wonder you ask questions and reject her answers.  

Quote
The main point of this was to show a saint saying women can invite men to fall into sin - which I was ridiculed for because people said "I was blaming women".   The monastery rules said the same exact thing that women can cause men to fall into lust.

They probably also have an icon of St Constantine...will you post that too?

Quote
I don't really even see an argument here.  If the Bible calls for modesty (by their standard) and an Orthodox Saint states it AND EO Monasteries state it - I don't understand why EO Christians are arguing it. Again the irony is absolutely wild as it comes directly from sources EO Christians should hold strong to.

It's not about ME. I don't adhere to EO tradition completely, but want to adhere to biblical standards.


No one is arguing against modesty, they're all arguing against your definition of modesty and your inconsistent application thereof.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #964 on: June 05, 2014, 12:55:25 AM »
Well it is a debate area of the forum.

I'm glad I am teaching them about the church.

If you noticed through this long thread (which I sort of regret bringing up), that I'm the one bringing up EO sources, scripture, quotes from EO saints, EO links, etc.   Nobody else did speaking contrary.   Where are the EO sources that say skin tight shirts, low cut shirts, etc., are okay.  Not one person posted something like that.

It is mostly ridicule.  It's okay though.

Now I am being blamed for my own self causes and selfishness (basically).  Before I was blaming women.  Before I was a pervert.  Before I was hypersexualizing stuff.

All I continually said is "I'm a man that glances and eyes wander" (not drooling) and that sisters (even those who believe they are modestly dressed) may want to consider a few ways men (like me) could fall.  

Women can help guys like me.  I hope any woman reading this thread will see that some men struggle with wandering eyes and will help out their brothers in Christ.  



It's like we're reading two separate threads.

Hello, past Me...
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #965 on: June 05, 2014, 12:57:09 AM »
If you noticed through this long thread (which I sort of regret bringing up), that I'm the one bringing up EO sources, scripture, quotes from EO saints, EO links, etc.   Nobody else did speaking contrary.   Where are the EO sources that say skin tight shirts, low cut shirts, etc., are okay.  Not one person posted something like that.

I doubt such exist, but not for the reasons you think.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline LBK

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #966 on: June 05, 2014, 12:59:06 AM »
Quote
Now I am being blamed for my own self causes and selfishness (basically).  Before I was blaming women.  Before I was a pervert.  Before I was hypersexualizing stuff.

These things about you have been pointed out repeatedly throughout this thread. And they are right for doing so.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #967 on: June 05, 2014, 01:02:49 AM »
Women can help guys like me.

No, they are not obligated to help you.

I hope any woman reading this thread will see that some men struggle with wandering eyes and will help out their brothers in Christ.

That's pathetic.  Self-control doesn't exist in yeshuaisiamism?

Offline Maria

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #968 on: June 05, 2014, 01:02:55 AM »
If you noticed through this long thread (which I sort of regret bringing up), that I'm the one bringing up EO sources, scripture, quotes from EO saints, EO links, etc.   Nobody else did speaking contrary.   Where are the EO sources that say skin tight shirts, low cut shirts, etc., are okay.  Not one person posted something like that.

I doubt such exist, but not for the reasons you think.

In the Ancient Church, women did not dress in skin tight shirts, low cut shirts, etc., so there are no specific canons addressing this issue. I doubt that the Great Council of 2016 will adopt any canons on modesty either because it apparently is to be a pastoral council much like Vatican II.  

The Ancient Church had more important issues to deal with. For example, they had to come up with the Nicene Creed in order to address heresies concerning the Holy Trinity and the Arians.

The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #969 on: June 05, 2014, 01:29:02 AM »
If you noticed through this long thread (which I sort of regret bringing up), that I'm the one bringing up EO sources, scripture, quotes from EO saints, EO links, etc.   Nobody else did speaking contrary.   Where are the EO sources that say skin tight shirts, low cut shirts, etc., are okay.  Not one person posted something like that.

I doubt such exist, but not for the reasons you think.

I'm with you Mor Ephrem and I know what you are saying.  The sources that I cited however do exist.  It's just a reality. 
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #970 on: June 05, 2014, 01:30:39 AM »
Women can help guys like me.

No, they are not obligated to help you.

I hope any woman reading this thread will see that some men struggle with wandering eyes and will help out their brothers in Christ.

That's pathetic.  Self-control doesn't exist in yeshuaisiamism?

I agree, it is pathetic and they are not obligated to help me.   That's why I point out my pathetic weakness.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #971 on: June 05, 2014, 01:32:18 AM »
Women can help guys like me.

No, they are not obligated to help you.

I hope any woman reading this thread will see that some men struggle with wandering eyes and will help out their brothers in Christ.

That's pathetic.  Self-control doesn't exist in yeshuaisiamism?

I agree, it is pathetic and they are not obligated to help me.   That's why I point out my pathetic weakness.

So what are you doing about it, Yesh?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #972 on: June 05, 2014, 01:45:11 AM »
Quote
Now I am being blamed for my own self causes and selfishness (basically).  Before I was blaming women.  Before I was a pervert.  Before I was hypersexualizing stuff.

These things about you have been pointed out repeatedly throughout this thread. And they are right for doing so.

Ok.  

Was St. Clement blaming women for telling them to cover their faces or they could invite men to fall into sin?

See, I just pointed out where my weakness was.... I didn't tell women to cover - I was hoping they'd see the weakness in a brother and in courtesy help me not to fall.

This is just too strange what happened in this thread.   I bring up a full EO tradition from an EO saint, quote them, monastery rules, and scripture and take all kinds of heat for it.

Okay.  So there it is.

Many don't seem to agree with me.  Okay.

Perhaps I stand alone.  But it sure looks like St. Clement, and the monastery rules, and scripture back up what I'm saying.    As much as I like all of you folks (and I really do!!! seriously!), I think I'll take the things on my corner of this debate.  
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #973 on: June 05, 2014, 01:46:42 AM »
Women can help guys like me.

No, they are not obligated to help you.

I hope any woman reading this thread will see that some men struggle with wandering eyes and will help out their brothers in Christ.

That's pathetic.  Self-control doesn't exist in yeshuaisiamism?

I agree, it is pathetic and they are not obligated to help me.   That's why I point out my pathetic weakness.

It's good that you admit your weakness.

...

What are the consequences?

« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 01:58:31 AM by SolEX01 »

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #974 on: June 05, 2014, 01:47:55 AM »
Women can help guys like me.

No, they are not obligated to help you.

I hope any woman reading this thread will see that some men struggle with wandering eyes and will help out their brothers in Christ.

That's pathetic.  Self-control doesn't exist in yeshuaisiamism?

I agree, it is pathetic and they are not obligated to help me.   That's why I point out my pathetic weakness.

So what are you doing about it, Yesh?

Repent, confess, and try harder.  Pray when tempted.  Try to radically amputate it through faith (pluck out eye).  It's the struggle of sin.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #975 on: June 05, 2014, 01:54:23 AM »
Quote
This is just too strange what happened in this thread.   I bring up a full EO tradition from an EO saint, quote them, monastery rules, and scripture and take all kinds of heat for it.

Trying to weasel out of facing the truth will get you nowhere.

You're the one who brought up glimpses of back flesh under buttons and tiny holes in a girl's blouse as sources of your "falling". This preoccupation with minutiae is unhealthy, as many have said before. You're finding fault with what normal, modest Orthodox women wear to church, as clearly shown in the photos you've posted as examples of "potential to cause you to fail".

Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #976 on: June 05, 2014, 11:02:40 AM »
Quote
This is just too strange what happened in this thread.   I bring up a full EO tradition from an EO saint, quote them, monastery rules, and scripture and take all kinds of heat for it.

Trying to weasel out of facing the truth will get you nowhere.

You're the one who brought up glimpses of back flesh under buttons and tiny holes in a girl's blouse as sources of your "falling". This preoccupation with minutiae is unhealthy, as many have said before. You're finding fault with what normal, modest Orthodox women wear to church, as clearly shown in the photos you've posted as examples of "potential to cause you to fail".

It's fully supported by what your monasteries post and St. Clement.  Are they weasels?   Didn't think so.   

The definition of modesty is not "how you perceive it", as some believe modest is a mini-skirt below the fingertips.  Modesty is what is defined as original intent of when it was written about.  In the case of St. Clement, he says "entirely covered".  Yes that includes back flesh and seeing through buttons.

LBK, I know I'm not popular here on many points, but every point I've made I've backed up with EO authority, rules, and scripture.  Do you really want to argue this further?  Or are you trying to make more oral traditional law to change the oral traditional law & scriptures I've posted.   

These women while we see them as "modest" (and I do to most degrees), still have things in their attire that can make certain men (like myself) fall.  The modest dress cited by St. Clement was specific to not "invite others to fall".  He said it clear as day.  There is no way around this.

So while you are saying I'm weaseling out of what I said, it looks to me like you are weaseling around what the EO church would hold as valid and authoritative, yet have provided NOTHING authoritative which speaks otherwise.  I'm seriously not attacking you personally, but it is what is happening.  I gave sources of EO position, you didn't.  That's why I am baffled while the debate is still happening.

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #977 on: June 05, 2014, 11:13:03 AM »
Quote
These women while we see them as "modest" (and I do to most degrees), still have things in their attire that can make certain men (like myself) fall.

What, tiny holes in their blouses? Lace veils with metallic thread? Glimpses of "back flesh" from under buttons on dresses? Necklines no lower than the collarbone? You have found all of these as capable of making you "fall". This isn't normal, it's sick. Really sick.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #978 on: June 05, 2014, 11:21:52 AM »
Quote
These women while we see them as "modest" (and I do to most degrees), still have things in their attire that can make certain men (like myself) fall.

What, tiny holes in their blouses? Lace veils with metallic thread? Glimpses of "back flesh" from under buttons on dresses? Necklines no lower than the collarbone? You have found all of these as capable of making you "fall". This isn't normal, it's sick. Really sick.

Well thank you for further exploiting me.  I believe many men suffer from wandering eyes on occasion.  I'm brave enough to admit it.

Unfortunately, you still have NO sources that speak otherwise where the Eastern Orthodox Church allows for these things.  If you are going to stand on an Eastern Orthodox position, I'd suggest you quit arguing against it.  It makes absolutely no sense at all.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #979 on: June 05, 2014, 11:22:09 AM »
Quote
These women while we see them as "modest" (and I do to most degrees), still have things in their attire that can make certain men (like myself) fall.

What, tiny holes in their blouses? Lace veils with metallic thread? Glimpses of "back flesh" from under buttons on dresses? Necklines no lower than the collarbone? You have found all of these as capable of making you "fall". This isn't normal, it's sick. Really sick.

It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #980 on: June 05, 2014, 11:25:59 AM »
Quote
These women while we see them as "modest" (and I do to most degrees), still have things in their attire that can make certain men (like myself) fall.

What, tiny holes in their blouses? Lace veils with metallic thread? Glimpses of "back flesh" from under buttons on dresses? Necklines no lower than the collarbone? You have found all of these as capable of making you "fall". This isn't normal, it's sick. Really sick.

Well thank you for further exploiting me.  I believe many men suffer from wandering eyes on occasion.  I'm brave enough to admit it.

Unfortunately, you still have NO sources that speak otherwise where the Eastern Orthodox Church allows for these things.  If you are going to stand on an Eastern Orthodox position, I'd suggest you quit arguing against it.  It makes absolutely no sense at all.


Exploiting you? How? Because I've used your own words to show the foolishness of your position?
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #981 on: June 05, 2014, 11:27:14 AM »
St Clement was not infallible. He supported plenty of views that have been condemned as heretical, after all. In the case of veiling, though, I believe it's merely his Greek birth showing, especially at a time when strict veiling was going out of fashion and it was the end of the world as we know (knew?) it.

On Greek veiling

Interestingly, Jewish women are forbidden to cover their faces or hands. No burqas for the Matriarchs, ta very muchly.
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #982 on: June 05, 2014, 11:27:24 AM »
I still want to know how much flesh you can possibly see through a buttonhole. A millimeter?
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #983 on: June 05, 2014, 11:40:12 AM »
I still want to know how much flesh you can possibly see through a buttonhole. A millimeter?


Does it matter?    He would  be tempted even if we were in burqas....That's why this whole argument is at the point of ridiculous.

We are now comparing 'sensible' regulations.....against what Yesh thinks is sensible given HIS weakness.

These are two very different things.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #984 on: June 05, 2014, 11:46:08 AM »
Shocker, you glance at women.   ::)
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #985 on: June 05, 2014, 12:12:39 PM »
Here let me give you some more sources... Ones EO should hold as authoritative.

http://tinyurl.com/n4mkn9d

Let your women be such as down themselves with shamefacedness and modesty, not with twisted hair, nor with gold, nor with pearls, or precious garments.” - Cyprian

Were the women in the photos dressing worldly with precious garments?  Lace?  Style?

How about another quote from St. Clement of Alexandria (you know and EO saint)
"And if some accommodation is to be made, they may be permitted to use softer clothes, provided they put out of the way fabrics foolishly thin, and of curious texture in weaving; bidding farewell to embroidery of gold and Indian silks and elaborate Bombyces (silks), which is at first a worm, then from it is produced a hairy caterpillar; after which the creature suffers a new transformation into a third form which they call lava, from which a long filament is produced, as the spider's thread from the spider. For these superfluous and diaphanous materials are the proof of a weak mind, covering as they do the shame of the body with a slender veil. For luxurious clothing, which cannot conceal the shape of the body, is no more a covering. For such clothing, falling close to the body, takes its form more easily, and adhering as it were to the flesh, receives its shape, and marks out the woman's figure, so that the whole make of the body is visible to spectators, though not seeing the body itself.

Dyeing of clothes is also to be rejected. For it is remote both from necessity and truth, in addition to the fact that reproach in manners spring from it. For the use of colours is not beneficial, for they are of no service against cold; nor has it anything for covering more than other clothing, except the opprobrium alone. And the agreeableness of the colour afflicts greedy eyes, inflaming them to senseless blindness. But for those who are white and unstained within, it is most suitable to use white and simple garments. Clearly and plainly, therefore, Daniel the prophet says, "Thrones were set, and upon them sat one like the Ancient of days, and His vesture was white as snow." The Apocalypse says also that the Lord Himself appeared wearing such a robe. It says also, "I saw the souls of those that had witnessed, beneath the altar, and there was given to each a white robe." And if it were necessary to seek for any other colour, the natural colour of truth should suffice. But garments which are like flowers are to be abandoned to Bacchic fooleries, and to those of the rites of initiation, along with purple and silver plate, as the comic poet says:- "Useful for tragedians, not far life."

And our life ought to be anything rather than a pageant. Therefore the dye of Sardis, and another of olive, and another green, a rose-coloured, and scarlet, and ten thousand other dyes, have been invented with much trouble for mischievous voluptuousness. Such clothing is for looking at, not for covering. Garments, too, variegated with gold, and those that are purple, and that piece of luxury which has its name from beasts (figured on it), and that saffron-coloured ointment-dipped robe, and those costly and many-coloured garments of flaring membranes, we are to bid farewell to, with the art itself. "For what prudent thing can these women have done," says the comedy, "who sit covered with flowers, wearing a saffron-coloured dress, painted?"

The Instructor expressly admonishes, "Boast not of the clothing of your garment, and be not elated on account of any glory, as it is unlawful."

Accordingly, deriding those who are clothed in luxurious garments, He says in the Gospel: "Lo, they who live in gorgeous apparel and luxury are in earthly palaces." He says in perishable palaces, where are love of display, love of popularity, and flattery and deceit. But those that wait at the court of heaven around the King of all, are sanctified in the immortal vesture of the Spirit, that is, the flesh, and so put on incorruptibility.

As therefore she who is unmarried devotes herself to God alone, and her care is not divided, but the chaste married woman divides her life between God and her husband, while she who is otherwise disposed is devoted entirely to marriage, that is, to passion: in the same way I think the chaste wife, when she devotes herself to her husband, sincerely serves God; but when she becomes fond of finery, she falls away from God and from chaste wedlock, exchanging her husband for the world, after the fashion of that Argive courtesan, I mean Eriphyle,- "Who received gold prized above her dear husband."

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-instructor-book2.html
OTHER WORKS:

St. Cyrpian - "But self-control and modesty do not consist only in purity of the flesh, but also in seemliness and in modesty of dress and adornment"

St. Clement of Alexandria - "Head-dresses and varieties of head-dresses, and elaborate braidings, and infinite modes of dressing the hair, and costly specimens of mir rots, in which they arrange their costume,--hunting after those that, like silly children, are crazy about their figures,--are characteristic of women who have lost all sense of shame. If any one were to call these courtesans, he would make no mistake, for they turn their faces into masks." http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-instructor-book3.html


St. Cyrprian - "'I hold that not only virgins and widows, but also wives and all women without exception, should be admonished that nowise should they deface God's work and fabric, the clay that He has fashioned, with the aid of yellow pigments, black powders or rouge, or by applying any dye that alters the natural features. . . They lay hands on God, when they strive to reform what He has formed. This is an assault on the Divine handiwork, a distortion of the truth. Thou shalt not be able to see God, having no longer the eyes that God made, but those the devil has unmade; with him shalt thou burn on whose account thou art bedecked."

Should Christians wear make up? - St. Augustine - "To dye oneself with paints in order to have a rosier or a paler complexion is a lying counterfeit."

St. Augustine - "Those who are of the world think how they are to please their wives, if they are men, or their husbands, if they are women, [and choose their dress accordingly]; except that women, whom the Apostle orders to veil their heads, ought not to uncover their hair, even if they are married."

St. Cyprian - "Be such as God the Creator made you; be such as the hand of your Father ordained you. Let your countenance remain in you incorrupt, your neck unadorned, your figure simple; let not wounds be made in your ears, nor let the precious chain of bracelets and necklaces circle your arms or your neck; let your feet be free from golden bands, your hair stained with no dye, your eyes worthy of beholding God."

Make up & dress - St. Hippolytus - "Now Susannah was a very delicate woman." This does not mean that she had flashy adornments on herself or eyes painted with various colors — as Jezebel had. Rather, it means she had the adornment of faith, chastity, and sanctity."

Apostolic Constitution - http://orthodoxwiki.org/Antiochene_Rite
"If you desire to be one of the faithful and to please the Lord, O wife, do not add adornments to your beauty, in order to please other men. Do not wear fine embroidery, garments, or shoes, to entice those who are allured by such things. It may be that you do not do these wicked things for the purpose of sinning yourself — but only for the sake of adornment and beauty. Nevertheless, you still will not escape future punishment for having compelled another to look so close at you as to lust after you."  (Blaming women?)


I think a few people her need to learn what the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches on modesty.  Read the saints writings and teachings on the subjects.   I'm going to leave out a SLEW of other post 325 AD writings on the subject, but added the Apostolic Constitution for the sake of those who respect the church more post-Nicea.

Also I added St. Augustine as a post Nicea saint because the topic of make-up would probably be pretty controversial.

Please refrain arguing against ME.  These are saints & respected works in the EO church.   If your argument is against them, then there is some kind of strange paradox going on that I don't understand.

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #986 on: June 05, 2014, 12:16:11 PM »
Here let me give you some more sources... Ones EO should hold as authoritative.

Blah blah blah....

I think a few people her need to learn what the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches on modesty.  Read the saints writings and teachings on the subjects.   I'm going to leave out a SLEW of other post 325 AD writings on the subject, but added the Apostolic Constitution for the sake of those who respect the church more post-Nicea.



So what you are arguing is that we should all....dress like pre-325 Christians did?

Because not including anything modern, is suggesting anachronism.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #987 on: June 05, 2014, 12:22:22 PM »
I still want to know how much flesh you can possibly see through a buttonhole. A millimeter?


Does it matter?    He would  be tempted even if we were in burqas....That's why this whole argument is at the point of ridiculous.

We are now comparing 'sensible' regulations.....against what Yesh thinks is sensible given HIS weakness.

These are two very different things.

I've seen many times women wearing dresses (like sun dresses) to church and there was far more back flesh revealed than a millimeter.  I don't have photo to prove it, and the forum exploited what I said.  There are times where inches are exposed.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #988 on: June 05, 2014, 12:26:05 PM »
Here let me give you some more sources... Ones EO should hold as authoritative.

Blah blah blah....

I think a few people her need to learn what the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches on modesty.  Read the saints writings and teachings on the subjects.   I'm going to leave out a SLEW of other post 325 AD writings on the subject, but added the Apostolic Constitution for the sake of those who respect the church more post-Nicea.



So what you are arguing is that we should all....dress like pre-325 Christians did?

Because not including anything modern, is suggesting anachronism.



What?

Denise, you need to actually read what I wrote.  I didn't suggest that at all.  I quoted those saints to not be in paradox with other parts of the forum or else I'd be accused of rejecting other EO saints (who practiced things I disagree with) and be told I'm a hypocrite.  I specifically mentioned the quote from Augustine and the apostolic constitution for those here who seemingly like anything post Nicea.

I could have given you A SLEW of others post-nicea.

Take it up with the EO saints if you don't like what they say.  It's their words.  I believe they completely address worldly dress.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #989 on: June 05, 2014, 12:31:35 PM »
You do realise that the prohibitions against finery are there because those fabrics were sodding expensive and such money would be put to better use caring for people, don't you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumptuary_law

Aniline dyes made all the talk about byssus irrelevant back in the 1850s. Otherwise, Mennonites et.al. would wear exclusively unbleached wool.
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