Author Topic: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me  (Read 68928 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #855 on: March 05, 2014, 01:25:51 PM »
I hear there is a Church for that, Mor...

Well, why not?  If nudity becomes so commonplace that it becomes desexualised, then we can worry about lust in a more focused way: it won't be that "breasts" cause me to fall, but a particular set, or for particular reasons, etc.  
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #856 on: March 05, 2014, 01:26:07 PM »
I agree completely.  I do not know what is in their hearts or intent.

They put on jewels (against scripture), lace head coverings (that match cleavage covers), tight clothing, and make up for their own reasons.

You are exactly right, I do not know their intent behind it.  It is not fair for me to assume they do all this to draw attention to themselves.  (yes being sarcastic)

Well, the most consistent thing would be to reject clothes entirely: they are a result of sin, but Christ has destroyed the power of sin and death and set us free.  Scripture bids us crave for the pure spiritual milk as newborn babes, and we know how naked they are when they are born...and we are "born again".  So we should just become nudists.  

No, I'm not being sarcastic.


I hear there is a Church for that, Mor...

But are they wearing headcoverings??


We could not determine that from the picture with the article....But in a note of good news, the pastor did not have a hat on while praying!

 ::)
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #857 on: March 05, 2014, 01:28:00 PM »
I hear there is a Church for that, Mor...

Well, why not?  If nudity becomes so commonplace that it becomes desexualised, then we can worry about lust in a more focused way: it won't be that "breasts" cause me to fall, but a particular set, or for particular reasons, etc.  

God help you if Rachel Weisz attends said church.  :laugh:
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline biro

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #858 on: March 05, 2014, 01:34:56 PM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam




When David covered, it was in shame.

These traditions of men directly defy Early Christian teachings and the Early church.


Scusi per favore, but how long do we allow this person to accuse ordained clergy of the Church of terrible things?

Who died and made him a bishop?

I can't take it anymore. I pay for this board, and I know I am far from perfect, but at least I try to care. This person owes every Orthodox priest and bishop an apology.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #859 on: March 05, 2014, 02:01:24 PM »
I hear there is a Church for that, Mor...

Well, why not?  If nudity becomes so commonplace that it becomes desexualised, then we can worry about lust in a more focused way: it won't be that "breasts" cause me to fall, but a particular set, or for particular reasons, etc.  

God help you if Rachel Weisz attends said church.  :laugh:

Yeah, God help me.  The first thing I'll do is get rid of that Daniel Craig.  Then I'll get rid of all other men in the parish, as well as the women who might swing a certain way.  I don't anticipate being successful at getting them to leave just by asking them nicely, so I suppose I'll be up to my eyebrows in sin.  But come on, it's Rachel Weisz!   
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #860 on: March 05, 2014, 02:32:47 PM »
The first thing I'll do is get rid of that Daniel Craig.

That might prove difficult.
You want your belt to buckle, not your chair.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #861 on: March 05, 2014, 02:34:03 PM »
The first thing I'll do is get rid of that Daniel Craig.

That might prove difficult.

Why? He is short, old, and hollywood "ripped" which means anorexic.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #862 on: March 05, 2014, 02:38:12 PM »
The first thing I'll do is get rid of that Daniel Craig.

That might prove difficult.

Difficult, but not impossible.  He's not really 007...
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #863 on: March 05, 2014, 02:41:35 PM »
The first thing I'll do is get rid of that Daniel Craig.

That might prove difficult.

Why? He is short, old, and hollywood "ripped" which means anorexic.

I wasn't being that literal. I was thinking of James Bond more than actual Daniel Craig. I should have included a Bond pic to make that obvious. (But since you brought it up- 5'10" is short? I don't think it's tall, but I wouldn't call it short. Just average.)
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #864 on: March 05, 2014, 02:43:10 PM »
The first thing I'll do is get rid of that Daniel Craig.

That might prove difficult.

Difficult, but not impossible.  He's not really 007...

Yay! You got it.  :)
You want your belt to buckle, not your chair.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #865 on: March 05, 2014, 02:54:58 PM »
PROVE IT.  Show me where I blamed women.  Even the thread subject title states my weakness.  I merely showed examples of things that I stumble on, that's it.
This whole thread has been a practice in blaming women for your failures.

Well, the bunch of women then are caught up in themselves to say I am blaming them.  I am not blaming anybody, no more than the MONKS YOU ARE IN COMMUNION WITH blame them.
When the women on this forum wish to visit a monastery, let them submit to the monastery's dress codes. When you cite their example only as support for your request that women "be kind"  to you, you only end up making your request sound more dogmatic than you mean it to be. My advice then: leave the monks out of this discussion. Then you won't use them to speak for you.

Why don't you go a few pages back and actually READ the links I posted and see how the monks need a dress code for women because they would cause them to fall.  This is 100% Eastern Orthodox monks who YOU are in communion with.
I'm familiar with this thread and with your arguments. Browbeating our women with the example of our monks when all you really want to do is speak for yourself will not win you any brownie points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaBnmSyNxHE

Starting a 17:38 through 18:54 here you have a woman who recognizes exactly what I'm saying.
And you have a number of women here who don't like what you're saying because of your accusational tone and your use of our monastics as a cudgel.

I will use monks dress codes because it takes exactly what arguments are against mine and completely validates my points.   You are technically arguing with the monks wishes for women to dress in non-tight clothes because they fall into lust.
When you are on monastery property, you follow the rules set by that monastery. Your constant citing of their example, though, only serves to make your personal preferences into an absolute, dogmatic principle.

Them being men, like me, I could fall into lust because women wear tight clothes.   Just saying.    NOTE THE WORDS "I COULD FALL", okay, that's not blaming them.  It's me falling.
Note your words "because women wear tight clothes". You fall into lust because women wear tight clothes. Once again you are identifying as the cause of your fall something external to yourself--i.e., women wearing tight clothes. If you want to be seen as truly taking responsibility for your own failures and NOT blaming others, try saying something like, "I fall into lust when I see women wearing tight clothes." At least then you would be taking responsibility for your own failure. At least then you would be able to see that the solution to your problem is to avert your eyes so you don't see the women wearing tight clothes.

It's so simple.
Yes, so simple you can't see it.

I don't really need to use the monastics, but for you to cast them off on my point is odd.
I'm not casting off the witness of our monastics. I'm casting off your use of our monastics as a cudgel to turn your own personal preferences into a dogmatic principle.

I could most likely dive into my stash of EO books and excerpt a lot of quotes for you which validate my point as well.
No need for you to cherry-pick from books we know quite well just to continue to give your personal preferences the weight of dogma.

I mean my point would be invalid if there is a difference from tight fitting clothes that monks see and the tight fitting clothes that I see.  I mean by their own admittance and mine, it can both POSSIBLY cause us to lust.
The cause of your lust is what your eyes see, NOT what others wear. If your eyes cause you to lust, then pluck them out. It would be better for you to enter heaven blind than for you to burn with lust. I think that captures Christ's wisdom better than anything you've said on this thread.

The true reason you don't like me using the monasteries multiple dress codes that I posted is because it validates my point - and it's from EO Christians.   They are saying the exact things as I did.
Please don't presume to know my mind, yesh. I've already told you why I don't like your reference to monastic dress codes. That should be enough to keep you from putting words into my mouth.

Well I'm not falling into lust because a squirrel dropped an acorn.

I'm falling into lust if a woman has on tight clothes.  It's completely my fault, from my eyes, because I look at what she wore.  It's not because she wore it, it's because I looked at what she wore (or lack thereof).
Okay, now you're starting to use language that focuses on yourself and what YOU can do to avoid falling into lust. It's not what a woman wears that causes you to fall. It's what you SEE that causes you to fall.

That is in no way shape or form blaming a woman.
The language you have used up to this point has indeed been very accusative. You have continually used language that puts the cause of your failures outside yourself. That may not be your intent, but it is the end result of your improper use of words.

Let's look at some basic semantics.
"I fall into sin because women wear tight clothes." The logic of this sentence implies one solution: Women need to stop wearing tight clothes.

"I fall into sin when I see women wearing tight clothes." The logic of this sentence implies a totally different solution: Do something to avert your eyes so you don't see those women wearing tight clothes. (Who knows? You may even find that women will be more understanding of your desire to protect the purity of your thoughts and may even take the initiative to help you out here. You're much more likely to be successful with this approach than with the cudgel approach you've used so far.)

The monastic point is important.  It's not some kind of scapegoat I play on you.  They state the reason is that they do not want to fall into lust.   It's a fine comparison.
It's an important, fine comparison only if you wish to externalize your personal preferences into some kind of dogma. Otherwise, you do best just not citing the monastic witness at all and letting your failures speak for themselves.

Me not being a monastic, all I did was to try to show women that I stumble easily - even subtly.   There won't be a puddle of drool, but I very well could even unconsciously look.
Then look for the solution inside yourself. Be the example you want others to follow.

It almost sounds like you don't accept that people can cause each other to fall into sin however.  Though a person falls it is within themselves, there are catalysts that cause people to fall.

If a woman (not in my example as I was delving superficially deep on purpose) is purposely dressed in skimpy clothing in order to attract lust to herself, when people fall into that lust, it is their own fault, but the woman sins as well in my opinion for inciting others to sin.   Is this not right in your opinion?
Let God and the woman be the woman's judge. You attend to yourself and your own sins.
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Offline Quinault

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #866 on: March 05, 2014, 03:31:58 PM »
I have never heard of an Orthodox monastery having rules about back-flesh and buttons.

You need to read their rules then.   If you are looking for it to specifically say "back-flesh", you probably won't find it.  But back flesh is revealing, and I doubt the monks would really appreciate a woman coming in with plenty of back flesh showing.

You mentioned back-flesh *under* buttons. How exactly is a woman supposed to remove her flesh under the buttons?

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #867 on: March 05, 2014, 03:32:36 PM »
I have never heard of an Orthodox monastery having rules about back-flesh and buttons.

You need to read their rules then.   If you are looking for it to specifically say "back-flesh", you probably won't find it.  But back flesh is revealing, and I doubt the monks would really appreciate a woman coming in with plenty of back flesh showing.

You mentioned back-flesh *under* buttons. How exactly is a woman supposed to remove her flesh under the buttons?


exacto knife.....that would turn him right off......
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #868 on: March 05, 2014, 04:00:04 PM »
exacto knife.....that would turn him right off......

Not if we find girls cutting themselves arousing. You just can't win, ladies.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #869 on: March 05, 2014, 04:02:20 PM »
exacto knife.....that would turn him right off......

Not if we find girls cutting themselves arousing. You just can't win, ladies.


darn...


Invisibility cloak?
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Offline Maria

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #870 on: March 05, 2014, 04:07:31 PM »
exacto knife.....that would turn him right off......

Not if we find girls cutting themselves arousing. You just can't win, ladies.


darn...


Invisibility cloak?

Not only are these comments (in bold) off topic, gross, insensitive, and disgusting, but also they can serve as trigger words for those here at OC.net who might be struggling with suicidal or homicidal thoughts.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 04:09:46 PM by Maria »
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Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #871 on: March 05, 2014, 04:08:46 PM »
LOL @ trigger words.

Nonsense.

Anyway, you gotta admire a guy who spin a thread that reaches 20 pages over so little.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #872 on: March 05, 2014, 04:10:18 PM »
LOL @ trigger words.

Nonsense.

Anyway, you gotta admire a guy who spin a thread that reaches 20 pages over so little.


At this point....'Bacon' could also serve as a trigger word.


I get the general point...but almost everything can serve as a trigger word for -someone-.....
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #873 on: March 06, 2014, 05:51:36 PM »

If a woman (not in my example as I was delving superficially deep on purpose) is purposely dressed in skimpy clothing in order to attract lust to herself, when people fall into that lust, it is their own fault, but the woman sins as well in my opinion for inciting others to sin.   Is this not right in your opinion?

And what of women who are not dressing with that intent?  There are multitudes of women who do not think about attracting "lust" in anyone.  They could be wearing clothing thinking of their own comfort or the weather or because they like some particular garment or it's from their cultural tradition or it's all that they have or some other reason  But the existence of you or any other person and inciting lust is not anywhere in their minds.  They are minding their own businesses.  Without clear statements or indications why should you assume that some outfit that you find "immodest" is worn with that intent? 

From the photos that you put up is it the case that you personally find sleeves about the elbow (not sleeveless) to be "skimpy"? If so, why?  Why is a fabric with tiny holes which does not expose large areas of skin or thinner material wrong as opposed to being cooler and light?  Why are trousers/leggings/pants declared immodest or "male"? 
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #874 on: March 06, 2014, 06:00:44 PM »
I agree completely.  I do not know what is in their hearts or intent.

They put on jewels (against scripture), lace head coverings (that match cleavage covers), tight clothing, and make up for their own reasons.

You are exactly right, I do not know their intent behind it.  It is not fair for me to assume they do all this to draw attention to themselves.  (yes being sarcastic)

Well, the most consistent thing would be to reject clothes entirely: they are a result of sin,

Ummmm I think that many items of clothing are a result of not wanting to perish of frostbite or heatstroke or avoiding chronic irritations from sitting on rough surfaces or leeches or insect or other creatures bitings ... I could go one....  ;)

and then there are shoes...good idea shoes.
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #875 on: March 06, 2014, 06:32:19 PM »
Ummmm I think that many items of clothing are a result of not wanting to perish of frostbite or heatstroke or avoiding chronic irritations from sitting on rough surfaces or leeches or insect or other creatures bitings ... I could go one....  ;)

and then there are shoes...good idea shoes.

I'm happy to wear clothes, and I'm happy (most of the time ;)) when others wear them. 
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #876 on: March 13, 2014, 10:11:03 AM »
So may I ask you, an image bower & venerator - Matthew 15:6 He need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.
Was there a question?

Quote
These traditions of men directly defy Early Christian teachings and the Early church.


So, you traded a Tradition that you think goes against the Early Church, which you are not a part of, and have created your own "tradition" while subscribing to things you like of other traditions. 

You live on a farm, which the Apostles didn't do, and use the Internet.

So may I ask you, what happened with Christ's command (unless you don't care for Christ's words at this time)?: Mark 16:15 "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation."

You're not even doing what Christ asked you to do, which the Church did and is continuing to do.

You can keep doing what you "feel" is right and post pictures of women without headcoverings on the Internet to feel good about yourself.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #878 on: June 02, 2014, 05:55:41 PM »
I hesitate to ask but what are "back-flesh" and flesh behind buttons"? I honestly do not remember encountering these terms until this thread.

Offline Theophania

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #879 on: June 02, 2014, 05:57:45 PM »
I hesitate to ask but what are "back-flesh" and flesh behind buttons"? I honestly do not remember encountering these terms until this thread.

A tiny bit of flesh that appears through a buttonhole or a tiny hole in the shirt.  ::) This remains one of my favorite threads here just for the sheer absurdity of it all.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #880 on: June 02, 2014, 06:02:06 PM »
I hesitate to ask but what are "back-flesh" and flesh behind buttons"? I honestly do not remember encountering these terms until this thread.

Some of us are working really hard to achieve chastity, and here you are ready to just throw it all away.  When in doubt, choose ignorance.  :P
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #881 on: June 02, 2014, 06:30:45 PM »
back flesh

/bak/ /fleSH/

noun

  • the skin which covers the rear surface of the human body from the shoulders to the hips
  • a term used to refer to the visible skin showing through one's clothing (usually a woman) which incites lust in the viewer
e.g.:
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress -----get back to focus.
You want your belt to buckle, not your chair.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #882 on: June 02, 2014, 06:43:40 PM »
Nothing like a bit of backflesh in the evening.
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #883 on: June 02, 2014, 06:44:05 PM »
By the time I figured this one out, the thread had run its course (I hoped), but since it refuses to stay dead, I might as well add it.



For me this would represent young women dressed fairly conservatively.  The one on the left and center seem to be attempting modesty.  The one on the right, covers her head and neck, but leaves a low cut shirt exposed.   Does this make sense?   The other two however, appear to have rather tight clothing, would this cause distraction to any other guys here?   The color of head covering can even cause distraction.   Would these girls compete with head coverings, clothes, etc., with their sisters in Christ?  Do they want to stand out?

Yes, and yes.



(Left to right, as in the original photo: Ksenia Afanasyeva, Viktoria Komova, Aliya Mustafina.)

All that leg flesh... :o
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 06:44:40 PM by Arachne »
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #884 on: June 02, 2014, 07:27:35 PM »
I hesitate to ask but what are "back-flesh" and flesh behind buttons"? I honestly do not remember encountering these terms until this thread.

A tiny bit of flesh that appears through a buttonhole or a tiny hole in the shirt.  ::) This remains one of my favorite threads here just for the sheer absurdity of it all.

That is absurd indeed.

Offline Theophania

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #885 on: June 02, 2014, 07:28:33 PM »
I hesitate to ask but what are "back-flesh" and flesh behind buttons"? I honestly do not remember encountering these terms until this thread.

A tiny bit of flesh that appears through a buttonhole or a tiny hole in the shirt.  ::) This remains one of my favorite threads here just for the sheer absurdity of it all.

That is absurd indeed.

People are turned on by weird things.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #886 on: June 02, 2014, 07:28:53 PM »
back flesh

/bak/ /fleSH/

noun

  • the skin which covers the rear surface of the human body from the shoulders to the hips
  • a term used to refer to the visible skin showing through one's clothing (usually a woman) which incites lust in the viewer
e.g.:
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress -----get back to focus.


This is also absurd, but we are dealing with Yesh after all.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #887 on: June 02, 2014, 07:29:49 PM »
By the time I figured this one out, the thread had run its course (I hoped), but since it refuses to stay dead, I might as well add it.



For me this would represent young women dressed fairly conservatively.  The one on the left and center seem to be attempting modesty.  The one on the right, covers her head and neck, but leaves a low cut shirt exposed.   Does this make sense?   The other two however, appear to have rather tight clothing, would this cause distraction to any other guys here?   The color of head covering can even cause distraction.   Would these girls compete with head coverings, clothes, etc., with their sisters in Christ?  Do they want to stand out?

Yes, and yes.



(Left to right, as in the original photo: Ksenia Afanasyeva, Viktoria Komova, Aliya Mustafina.)

All that leg flesh... :o

Touche!

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #888 on: June 03, 2014, 10:15:15 PM »
Does St. Clement of Alexandria along with the monasteries rules agree with my post?

St. Clement of Alexandria (quote)
"Woman and man are to go to church decently attired, with natural step, embracing silence, possessing unfeigned love, pure in body, pure in heart, fit to pray to God. Let the woman observe this, further. Let her be entirely covered, unless she happen to be at home. For that style of dress is grave, and protects from being gazed at. And she will never fall, who puts before her eyes modesty, and her shawl; nor will she invite another to fall into sin by uncovering her face. For this is the wish of the Word, since it is becoming for her to pray veiled."
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Clement_of_Alexandria

Quote source: The writings of Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation to the Heathen  page 328
(You can post the quote in google to read it too - should be the 1st result)

It's the EO church saints and monastics that seem to share my views on this subject.   Do you guys respect and honor your saints and monastery rules that I've cited?   Women can and do sometimes invite men to fall.  But the man falls into sin, it is his fault.   Sisters should help their brothers.

I hope this clarifies this thread.  I've taken some heat on it, but backed up what I was saying completely with EO monastery rules for dress (citing immodesty would tempt), An EO saint quote, and scriptures.   Are you arguing with me (that's okay because I know I bring up a lot of controversy), or are you arguing with your own church and saints?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 10:21:00 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #889 on: June 03, 2014, 10:26:55 PM »
I'll be honest, I find attractive women attractive and unattractive women unattractive.  I don't care what they are wearing. It could be burlap sacks or bikinis, if I see Charlize Theron in a mennonite dress, you can bet my eyes will glance her way well before they look at Rosie O'Donell in a thong.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #890 on: June 03, 2014, 10:31:53 PM »
"The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you." (Isa. 28:20)

"For because they wronged the simple, they shall be slain; and an inquisition shall ruin the ungodly." (Prov. 1:32 LXX)

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #891 on: June 03, 2014, 10:40:54 PM »
I'll be honest, I find attractive women attractive and unattractive women unattractive.  I don't care what they are wearing. It could be burlap sacks or bikinis, if I see Charlize Theron in a mennonite dress, you can bet my eyes will glance her way well before they look at Rosie O'Donell in a thong.

And you'd see no real figure, no leg shapes, no low neck lines, her hair covered, no jewelry, and no make up.   We can still glance sure - and that is the weakness I spoke of... But as St. Clement of Alexandria stated plainly women can invite men to fall.  I believe they can do it knowingly and unknowingly.  When a man falls, it's his fault.

Though the thread generated a ton of heat and debate (and mostly ridicule), I find it ironic that I'm teaching Eastern Orthodox Christians about their own saints, traditions, and understandings - and they still argued and laughed at what I was typing!  :-[   It's there written in plain history and on monastery "walls".

But TheTrisagion made an interesting point.  We tend to look anyway.   But when is the last time you drooled over a nun vs. Charlize Theoron in a thong?  What would you stare at more?   A nun in her typical clothes she wears in a convent (even a younger adult with a pretty face) or Charlize Theoron (or insert who you are heavily attracted to here)?  

Which would remind you of your faith more?

« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 10:44:12 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #892 on: June 03, 2014, 10:44:06 PM »
This is the thread that never ends.
Yes it goes on and on, my friends.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #893 on: June 03, 2014, 10:45:37 PM »
This is the thread that never ends.
Yes it goes on and on, my friends.

Some people got on board not knowing what it was
Reading their church theologians was merely just a blah
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #894 on: June 03, 2014, 10:50:21 PM »
This is the thread that never ends.
Yes it goes on and on, my friends.

Some people got on board not knowing what it was
Reading their church theologians was merely just a blah

Come on, that's hardly even a slant rhyme!
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #895 on: June 03, 2014, 10:57:27 PM »
I'll be honest, I find attractive women attractive and unattractive women unattractive.  I don't care what they are wearing. It could be burlap sacks or bikinis, if I see Charlize Theron in a mennonite dress, you can bet my eyes will glance her way well before they look at Rosie O'Donell in a thong.

And you'd see no real figure, no leg shapes, no low neck lines, her hair covered, no jewelry, and no make up.   We can still glance sure - and that is the weakness I spoke of... But as St. Clement of Alexandria stated plainly women can invite men to fall.  I believe they can do it knowingly and unknowingly.  When a man falls, it's his fault.

Though the thread generated a ton of heat and debate (and mostly ridicule), I find it ironic that I'm teaching Eastern Orthodox Christians about their own saints, traditions, and understandings - and they still argued and laughed at what I was typing!  :-[   It's there written in plain history and on monastery "walls".

But TheTrisagion made an interesting point.  We tend to look anyway.   But when is the last time you drooled over a nun vs. Charlize Theoron in a thong?  What would you stare at more?   A nun in her typical clothes she wears in a convent (even a younger adult with a pretty face) or Charlize Theoron (or insert who you are heavily attracted to here)?  

Which would remind you of your faith more?

I for some reason just noticed this thread, so forgive me if I am rehashing what others have said.

I'm not sure your are teaching anyone here about their saints, traditions or understandings.  Modesty is not a novel concept in Christianity.  I think the jarring dissonance here is the fact that it is a man doing the lecturing on it. I was not Mennonite, but I did grow up in a very conservative fundamentalist environment and it would have been unthinkable for a man to lecture a woman on dress.  An older woman would take a younger woman aside and discuss such things, but it would have been very inappropriate for the pastor, or a deacon or elder in the church to tell a woman that she is dressing immodestly. Perhaps in your faith system, such conversations are acceptable, but I've never experienced that personally.  I couldn't imagine my priest taking women aside to discuss such things.  Maybe the presbytera would, but never the priest.

I would probably end up drooling over Charlize Theron because I think she is smoking hot.  If the nun was smoking hot, perhaps I would drool over her, I don't know.  I've never seen a smoking hot nun. In either event, I would try to keep my drooling to a minimum.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #896 on: June 03, 2014, 11:15:25 PM »
I'll be honest, I find attractive women attractive and unattractive women unattractive.  I don't care what they are wearing. It could be burlap sacks or bikinis, if I see Charlize Theron in a mennonite dress, you can bet my eyes will glance her way well before they look at Rosie O'Donell in a thong.

I would probably end up drooling over Charlize Theron because I think she is smoking hot.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #897 on: June 03, 2014, 11:22:32 PM »
I'll be honest, I find attractive women attractive and unattractive women unattractive.  I don't care what they are wearing. It could be burlap sacks or bikinis, if I see Charlize Theron in a mennonite dress, you can bet my eyes will glance her way well before they look at Rosie O'Donell in a thong.

And you'd see no real figure, no leg shapes, no low neck lines, her hair covered, no jewelry, and no make up.   We can still glance sure - and that is the weakness I spoke of... But as St. Clement of Alexandria stated plainly women can invite men to fall.  I believe they can do it knowingly and unknowingly.  When a man falls, it's his fault.

Though the thread generated a ton of heat and debate (and mostly ridicule), I find it ironic that I'm teaching Eastern Orthodox Christians about their own saints, traditions, and understandings - and they still argued and laughed at what I was typing!  :-[   It's there written in plain history and on monastery "walls".

But TheTrisagion made an interesting point.  We tend to look anyway.   But when is the last time you drooled over a nun vs. Charlize Theoron in a thong?  What would you stare at more?   A nun in her typical clothes she wears in a convent (even a younger adult with a pretty face) or Charlize Theoron (or insert who you are heavily attracted to here)?  

Which would remind you of your faith more?

I for some reason just noticed this thread, so forgive me if I am rehashing what others have said.

I'm not sure your are teaching anyone here about their saints, traditions or understandings.  Modesty is not a novel concept in Christianity.  I think the jarring dissonance here is the fact that it is a man doing the lecturing on it. I was not Mennonite, but I did grow up in a very conservative fundamentalist environment and it would have been unthinkable for a man to lecture a woman on dress.  An older woman would take a younger woman aside and discuss such things, but it would have been very inappropriate for the pastor, or a deacon or elder in the church to tell a woman that she is dressing immodestly. Perhaps in your faith system, such conversations are acceptable, but I've never experienced that personally.  I couldn't imagine my priest taking women aside to discuss such things.  Maybe the presbytera would, but never the priest.

I would probably end up drooling over Charlize Theron because I think she is smoking hot.  If the nun was smoking hot, perhaps I would drool over her, I don't know.  I've never seen a smoking hot nun. In either event, I would try to keep my drooling to a minimum.

In post above though, it was a male EO saint telling women how to dress. 

(by the way this isn't about the Mennonite faith)

If Charlize Theron was a sister in your church, you would hope that a sister would do whatever is in her power to help keep you from drooling.   As Saint Clement stated "invite"...

That's the entire basis of this thread.  Sisters hopefully can be considerate and know the depths of how certain men "glance" or drool.   Sisters in Christ can help their brothers.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #898 on: June 03, 2014, 11:29:45 PM »
I'll be honest, I find attractive women attractive and unattractive women unattractive.  I don't care what they are wearing. It could be burlap sacks or bikinis, if I see Charlize Theron in a mennonite dress, you can bet my eyes will glance her way well before they look at Rosie O'Donell in a thong.

I would probably end up drooling over Charlize Theron because I think she is smoking hot.

You are my best friend. 
We can double date.  You and Rachel, me and Charlize.  Now if only I could figure out what to do with my wife...

I know!  I can send her on a date with Daniel Craig.  Problem solved.  ;D
God bless!

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #899 on: June 04, 2014, 12:33:54 AM »
I'll be honest, I find attractive women attractive and unattractive women unattractive.  I don't care what they are wearing. It could be burlap sacks or bikinis, if I see Charlize Theron in a mennonite dress, you can bet my eyes will glance her way well before they look at Rosie O'Donell in a thong.

I would probably end up drooling over Charlize Theron because I think she is smoking hot.

You are my best friend. 
We can double date.  You and Rachel, me and Charlize.  Now if only I could figure out what to do with my wife...

I know!  I can send her on a date with Daniel Craig.  Problem solved.  ;D

Oh. You sir are a genius
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