Author Topic: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me  (Read 88240 times)

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Offline hecma925

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #810 on: March 02, 2014, 12:43:34 AM »


Well really it's like high school/grade school rumor antics.  Exaggeration and contortion to cram points at somebody.  Funny enough, people who look at what I said in this thread and actually check the links where I support it with monastics understanding will see my points well made and agreed with by EO Christians.  Also oddly enough a non-practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian just showed practicing Eastern Orthodox Christians that the very thing he is talking about exists in black and white print from their own monasteries.   There is some strange irony in that for sure.


  Monasteries have their own rules.  What does that prove?  And if you're "non-practicing", then you aren't Orthodox anymore.  I'm not sure what hese 18 pages were even about.  All I remember is you posted a lot of pictures that turned you on.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #811 on: March 02, 2014, 12:44:06 AM »
PROVE IT.  Show me where I blamed women.  Even the thread subject title states my weakness.  I merely showed examples of things that I stumble on, that's it.
This whole thread has been a practice in blaming women for your failures.

Well, the bunch of women then are caught up in themselves to say I am blaming them.  I am not blaming anybody, no more than the MONKS YOU ARE IN COMMUNION WITH blame them.
When the women on this forum wish to visit a monastery, let them submit to the monastery's dress codes. When you cite their example only as support for your request that women "be kind"  to you, you only end up making your request sound more dogmatic than you mean it to be. My advice then: leave the monks out of this discussion. Then you won't use them to speak for you.

Why don't you go a few pages back and actually READ the links I posted and see how the monks need a dress code for women because they would cause them to fall.  This is 100% Eastern Orthodox monks who YOU are in communion with.
I'm familiar with this thread and with your arguments. Browbeating our women with the example of our monks when all you really want to do is speak for yourself will not win you any brownie points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaBnmSyNxHE

Starting a 17:38 through 18:54 here you have a woman who recognizes exactly what I'm saying.
And you have a number of women here who don't like what you're saying because of your accusational tone and your use of our monastics as a cudgel.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #812 on: March 02, 2014, 12:44:53 AM »
Quote
Show me where I blamed women.  Even the thread subject title states my weakness.  I merely showed examples of things that I stumble on, that's it.

Well, the bunch of women then are caught up in themselves to say I am blaming them.

Yup. blaming the women again, never yourself.

Early on in the thread you posted a slew of photographs of women whose mode of dress you picked apart as immodest for various reasons. The response here from just about everybody, from men as well as women, was that these women were not offensively or immodestly dressed. It also became increasingly obvious that your scrupulosity (glimpse of back skin, close-fitting sleeves with small holes in them, etc) is spiritually unhealthy, yet you have shown NO effort in taking responsibility for your own behavior. Your attitude is indeed the same as Adam blaming Eve for his eating the forbidden fruit.

So are the monastics blaming women?  After all their dress code cites the very reasons I did.   I wasn't blaming, I was deeply showing what would CAUSE ME TO FALL.  Not their fault I fall, my fault.
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #813 on: March 02, 2014, 12:45:40 AM »
Quote
While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) -

Eighteen pages of yesh doing the exact opposite .....  :P :P ::)

Good, so in those 18 pages, how about you quote exactly where I "ordered" a woman to do anything.  I merely pointed out my weakness - some other men said they struggle - compared it to the monastics....  That's about it.

I simply said over and over I just hope some women will see this and understand for their brothers in Christ.   It's great to help a brother out - that is the summary.





1.  You say that you no longer attend an Orthodox church.
2.  You are on a forum supposedly for Orthodox Christians telling them that you want female Orthodox Christians to dress as you think they should dress for your comfort.

Back to #1.  



If the argument is more general, and you want females everywhere to dress for your comfort:

1. There are about 7 billion people on the planet at this point, and population is growing exponentially.

2. Let's assume that 3 billion are women, given that China and India slate unborn and born females for death thereby creating heavily male populations.

3. That means 3 billion women would have to log onto OrthodoxChristianity.net and read your plea in English re: dress code.  

4. I haven't done the actual calculation on this because I don't have all the variables, but for estimating purposes, chances are 99.9999 % of them likely will never see you in person.  A higher percentage of them will likely have greater priorities eclipsing your comfort level about their clothing choices.  

5. The most people logged into this site is listed at around 654 people during one day iirc.  

6.  Should the entire world suddenly be outfitted with smartphones or laptops and every woman on the planet logs onto this site in every language of the world, it would probably crash, making your point moot.

7.  Have you considered posting signs around your neighborhood?  If you live in a rural area, you can put a large billboard on your own property with your dress code, or you can paint it on the roof of your barn if you have one close to a highway.  You could post flyers at the feed store, auction yard, grocery store, telephone poles, anywhere you spot a woman dressing outside your comfort zone, etc.  You could put the little tear-off tags on the bottom with your home phone number so confused women can call you for consultation about your comfort level.  If you're really good with matching colors, textures, etc. it might turn into a side fashion consulting business to help busy women get ready for work in the morning.  

8.  There is actually nothing a woman can do that won't cause some man, somewhere to not have inappropriate thoughts about her physical self.    

9.  Some of the highest assault rates on women are probably in populations where women are held to staunchly legalistic male assigned dress code regulations.  

10.  You might very well just be a troll on this issue.  You get bored at home with your properly dressed wife and come online to discuss other women's clothing choices with a bunch of people you will never see.
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #814 on: March 02, 2014, 12:49:38 AM »
Quote
Show me where I blamed women.  Even the thread subject title states my weakness.  I merely showed examples of things that I stumble on, that's it.

Well, the bunch of women then are caught up in themselves to say I am blaming them.

Yup. blaming the women again, never yourself.

Early on in the thread you posted a slew of photographs of women whose mode of dress you picked apart as immodest for various reasons. The response here from just about everybody, from men as well as women, was that these women were not offensively or immodestly dressed. It also became increasingly obvious that your scrupulosity (glimpse of back skin, close-fitting sleeves with small holes in them, etc) is spiritually unhealthy, yet you have shown NO effort in taking responsibility for your own behavior. Your attitude is indeed the same as Adam blaming Eve for his eating the forbidden fruit.

So are the monastics blaming women?  After all their dress code cites the very reasons I did.   I wasn't blaming, I was deeply showing what would CAUSE ME TO FALL.  Not their fault I fall, my fault.
You don't see it, do you? "I was deeply showing what would CAUSE ME TO FALL." In this statement is an implication that the cause of your fall is something outside you. You look outside yourself and see the cause of your fall in other people, and then tell the other people what they can do to stop causing you to fall. All the while, you could be focusing on your own self and looking for ways to keep yourself from falling.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #815 on: March 02, 2014, 12:56:49 AM »
PROVE IT.  Show me where I blamed women.  Even the thread subject title states my weakness.  I merely showed examples of things that I stumble on, that's it.
This whole thread has been a practice in blaming women for your failures.

Well, the bunch of women then are caught up in themselves to say I am blaming them.  I am not blaming anybody, no more than the MONKS YOU ARE IN COMMUNION WITH blame them.
When the women on this forum wish to visit a monastery, let them submit to the monastery's dress codes. When you cite their example only as support for your request that women "be kind"  to you, you only end up making your request sound more dogmatic than you mean it to be. My advice then: leave the monks out of this discussion. Then you won't use them to speak for you.

Why don't you go a few pages back and actually READ the links I posted and see how the monks need a dress code for women because they would cause them to fall.  This is 100% Eastern Orthodox monks who YOU are in communion with.
I'm familiar with this thread and with your arguments. Browbeating our women with the example of our monks when all you really want to do is speak for yourself will not win you any brownie points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaBnmSyNxHE

Starting a 17:38 through 18:54 here you have a woman who recognizes exactly what I'm saying.
And you have a number of women here who don't like what you're saying because of your accusational tone and your use of our monastics as a cudgel.

I will use monks dress codes because it takes exactly what arguments are against mine and completely validates my points.   You are technically arguing with the monks wishes for women to dress in non-tight clothes because they fall into lust.   Them being men, like me, I could fall into lust because women wear tight clothes.   Just saying.    NOTE THE WORDS "I COULD FALL", okay, that's not blaming them.  It's me falling.

It's so simple.    

I don't really need to use the monastics, but for you to cast them off on my point is odd.   I could most likely dive into my stash of EO books and excerpt a lot of quotes for you which validate my point as well.  

I mean my point would be invalid if there is a difference from tight fitting clothes that monks see and the tight fitting clothes that I see.  I mean by their own admittance and mine, it can both POSSIBLY cause us to lust.    

The true reason you don't like me using the monasteries multiple dress codes that I posted is because it validates my point - and it's from EO Christians.   They are saying the exact things as I did.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #816 on: March 02, 2014, 12:59:51 AM »
Quote
While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) -

Eighteen pages of yesh doing the exact opposite .....  :P :P ::)

Good, so in those 18 pages, how about you quote exactly where I "ordered" a woman to do anything.  I merely pointed out my weakness - some other men said they struggle - compared it to the monastics....  That's about it.

I simply said over and over I just hope some women will see this and understand for their brothers in Christ.   It's great to help a brother out - that is the summary.





1.  You say that you no longer attend an Orthodox church.
2.  You are on a forum supposedly for Orthodox Christians telling them that you want female Orthodox Christians to dress as you think they should dress for your comfort.

Back to #1.  



If the argument is more general, and you want females everywhere to dress for your comfort:

1. There are about 7 billion people on the planet at this point, and population is growing exponentially.

2. Let's assume that 3 billion are women, given that China and India slate unborn and born females for death thereby creating heavily male populations.

3. That means 3 billion women would have to log onto OrthodoxChristianity.net and read your plea in English re: dress code.  

4. I haven't done the actual calculation on this because I don't have all the variables, but for estimating purposes, chances are 99.9999 % of them likely will never see you in person.  A higher percentage of them will likely have greater priorities eclipsing your comfort level about their clothing choices.  

5. The most people logged into this site is listed at around 654 people during one day iirc.  

6.  Should the entire world suddenly be outfitted with smartphones or laptops and every woman on the planet logs onto this site in every language of the world, it would probably crash, making your point moot.

7.  Have you considered posting signs around your neighborhood?  If you live in a rural area, you can put a large billboard on your own property with your dress code, or you can paint it on the roof of your barn if you have one close to a highway.  You could post flyers at the feed store, auction yard, grocery store, telephone poles, anywhere you spot a woman dressing outside your comfort zone, etc.  You could put the little tear-off tags on the bottom with your home phone number so confused women can call you for consultation about your comfort level.  If you're really good with matching colors, textures, etc. it might turn into a side fashion consulting business to help busy women get ready for work in the morning.  

8.  There is actually nothing a woman can do that won't cause some man, somewhere to not have inappropriate thoughts about her physical self.    

9.  Some of the highest assault rates on women are probably in populations where women are held to staunchly legalistic male assigned dress code regulations.  

10.  You might very well just be a troll on this issue.  You get bored at home with your properly dressed wife and come online to discuss other women's clothing choices with a bunch of people you will never see.

You forgot #11.
 
Most of the world's women are not even Christians.

But oddly enough your point #9, if you are speaking of Muslim women, many of those volunteer and love to dress in that manner for their faith.

But anyway, your post negates the point of the thread entirely.  I don't have a dress code.  I just hope to show how a weak man (me) falls even subtly into lust on minute things.  Hopefully it makes some women aware and if they care to help, they can choose to on their own.

Just like the video I posted a few posts back, the woman said "I had no idea he struggled with this".
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 01:00:32 AM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #817 on: March 02, 2014, 01:07:56 AM »
Quote
Show me where I blamed women.  Even the thread subject title states my weakness.  I merely showed examples of things that I stumble on, that's it.

Well, the bunch of women then are caught up in themselves to say I am blaming them.

Yup. blaming the women again, never yourself.

Early on in the thread you posted a slew of photographs of women whose mode of dress you picked apart as immodest for various reasons. The response here from just about everybody, from men as well as women, was that these women were not offensively or immodestly dressed. It also became increasingly obvious that your scrupulosity (glimpse of back skin, close-fitting sleeves with small holes in them, etc) is spiritually unhealthy, yet you have shown NO effort in taking responsibility for your own behavior. Your attitude is indeed the same as Adam blaming Eve for his eating the forbidden fruit.

So are the monastics blaming women?  After all their dress code cites the very reasons I did.   I wasn't blaming, I was deeply showing what would CAUSE ME TO FALL.  Not their fault I fall, my fault.
You don't see it, do you? "I was deeply showing what would CAUSE ME TO FALL." In this statement is an implication that the cause of your fall is something outside you. You look outside yourself and see the cause of your fall in other people, and then tell the other people what they can do to stop causing you to fall. All the while, you could be focusing on your own self and looking for ways to keep yourself from falling.

Since when was the word ME outside of myself?  If something causes you to fall into sin, that is your own internal soul. 

Could you explain to me how you could ever sin from something outside of you causing you to sin?

My words and intent are seriously twisted here on the thread.

So tell me how the monks who don't want to "fall into lust" because women dress a certain way are blaming the women.

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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #818 on: March 02, 2014, 01:09:39 AM »
On point 7. (Please don't make me quote properly. I am on a phone and that's a long block of text to delete)

The Chasidic Jews of Park Slope Brooklyn NYC do just this. In English, Spanish and Hebrew. Outlining their preference for below elbow sleeves, long skirts etc.

On a NYC public sidewalk,they feel they have the right to in essence control what others do in their neighborhood.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #819 on: March 02, 2014, 01:10:35 AM »
A two second search on the internet:

Egyptian women gaining their voice on harassment
Challenge abusers, force nation to be vigilant


"CAIRO - She was leaving the bus when the driver touched her in a way a stranger shouldn't.

"I screamed at him, 'You're an animal!' " said Shaimaa Abdel Rahman Aref, 28, a graduate business student. "I felt as if he was striking at my pride. I wish he had beaten me instead. It would have been much less humiliating, especially that I was veiled and not wearing anything that would arouse a man."

Aref took down the bus number and went to the police. But she found herself confronting a patriarchal society in which authorities are often indifferent to crimes against women and many families pressure their daughters and sisters to forgo justice rather than invite scandal. She said several police officers ridiculed her and her parents scolded her for breaching the line between humility and honor.

"They always put the blame on the girl," she said....

A recent study by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights found that 83 percent of Egyptian women and 98 percent of foreign women in this country, dependent on Western tourists, experience public sexual harassment, including explicit comments, groping, men exposing themselves and assault....."

A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #820 on: March 02, 2014, 01:13:16 AM »
A two second search on the internet:

Egyptian women gaining their voice on harassment
Challenge abusers, force nation to be vigilant


"CAIRO - She was leaving the bus when the driver touched her in a way a stranger shouldn't.

"I screamed at him, 'You're an animal!' " said Shaimaa Abdel Rahman Aref, 28, a graduate business student. "I felt as if he was striking at my pride. I wish he had beaten me instead. It would have been much less humiliating, especially that I was veiled and not wearing anything that would arouse a man."

Aref took down the bus number and went to the police. But she found herself confronting a patriarchal society in which authorities are often indifferent to crimes against women and many families pressure their daughters and sisters to forgo justice rather than invite scandal. She said several police officers ridiculed her and her parents scolded her for breaching the line between humility and honor.

"They always put the blame on the girl," she said....

A recent study by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights found that 83 percent of Egyptian women and 98 percent of foreign women in this country, dependent on Western tourists, experience public sexual harassment, including explicit comments, groping, men exposing themselves and assault....."



This has nothing to do with this thread.  Dumb attempt at making Orthodox monastic dress code appear to be rapists.  Their points are exactly mine.
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #821 on: March 02, 2014, 01:14:44 AM »
Quote
While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) -

Eighteen pages of yesh doing the exact opposite .....  :P :P ::)

Good, so in those 18 pages, how about you quote exactly where I "ordered" a woman to do anything.  I merely pointed out my weakness - some other men said they struggle - compared it to the monastics....  That's about it.

I simply said over and over I just hope some women will see this and understand for their brothers in Christ.   It's great to help a brother out - that is the summary.





1.  You say that you no longer attend an Orthodox church.
2.  You are on a forum supposedly for Orthodox Christians telling them that you want female Orthodox Christians to dress as you think they should dress for your comfort.

Back to #1.  



If the argument is more general, and you want females everywhere to dress for your comfort:

1. There are about 7 billion people on the planet at this point, and population is growing exponentially.

2. Let's assume that 3 billion are women, given that China and India slate unborn and born females for death thereby creating heavily male populations.

3. That means 3 billion women would have to log onto OrthodoxChristianity.net and read your plea in English re: dress code.  

4. I haven't done the actual calculation on this because I don't have all the variables, but for estimating purposes, chances are 99.9999 % of them likely will never see you in person.  A higher percentage of them will likely have greater priorities eclipsing your comfort level about their clothing choices.  

5. The most people logged into this site is listed at around 654 people during one day iirc.  

6.  Should the entire world suddenly be outfitted with smartphones or laptops and every woman on the planet logs onto this site in every language of the world, it would probably crash, making your point moot.

7.  Have you considered posting signs around your neighborhood?  If you live in a rural area, you can put a large billboard on your own property with your dress code, or you can paint it on the roof of your barn if you have one close to a highway.  You could post flyers at the feed store, auction yard, grocery store, telephone poles, anywhere you spot a woman dressing outside your comfort zone, etc.  You could put the little tear-off tags on the bottom with your home phone number so confused women can call you for consultation about your comfort level.  If you're really good with matching colors, textures, etc. it might turn into a side fashion consulting business to help busy women get ready for work in the morning.  

8.  There is actually nothing a woman can do that won't cause some man, somewhere to not have inappropriate thoughts about her physical self.    

9.  Some of the highest assault rates on women are probably in populations where women are held to staunchly legalistic male assigned dress code regulations.  

10.  You might very well just be a troll on this issue.  You get bored at home with your properly dressed wife and come online to discuss other women's clothing choices with a bunch of people you will never see.

You forgot #11.
 
Most of the world's women are not even Christians.

But oddly enough your point #9, if you are speaking of Muslim women, many of those volunteer and love to dress in that manner for their faith.

But anyway, your post negates the point of the thread entirely.  I don't have a dress code.  I just hope to show how a weak man (me) falls even subtly into lust on minute things.  Hopefully it makes some women aware and if they care to help, they can choose to on their own.

Just like the video I posted a few posts back, the woman said "I had no idea he struggled with this".

Every woman cannot cater to every individual preference of every other person.  We live in a free society.  

It really doesn't matter how women dress, just being a woman is enough to arouse some men.  
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #822 on: March 02, 2014, 01:14:49 AM »
PROVE IT.  Show me where I blamed women.  Even the thread subject title states my weakness.  I merely showed examples of things that I stumble on, that's it.
This whole thread has been a practice in blaming women for your failures.

Well, the bunch of women then are caught up in themselves to say I am blaming them.  I am not blaming anybody, no more than the MONKS YOU ARE IN COMMUNION WITH blame them.
When the women on this forum wish to visit a monastery, let them submit to the monastery's dress codes. When you cite their example only as support for your request that women "be kind"  to you, you only end up making your request sound more dogmatic than you mean it to be. My advice then: leave the monks out of this discussion. Then you won't use them to speak for you.

Why don't you go a few pages back and actually READ the links I posted and see how the monks need a dress code for women because they would cause them to fall.  This is 100% Eastern Orthodox monks who YOU are in communion with.
I'm familiar with this thread and with your arguments. Browbeating our women with the example of our monks when all you really want to do is speak for yourself will not win you any brownie points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaBnmSyNxHE

Starting a 17:38 through 18:54 here you have a woman who recognizes exactly what I'm saying.
And you have a number of women here who don't like what you're saying because of your accusational tone and your use of our monastics as a cudgel.

I will use monks dress codes because it takes exactly what arguments are against mine and completely validates my points.   You are technically arguing with the monks wishes for women to dress in non-tight clothes because they fall into lust.
When you are on monastery property, you follow the rules set by that monastery. Your constant citing of their example, though, only serves to make your personal preferences into an absolute, dogmatic principle.

Them being men, like me, I could fall into lust because women wear tight clothes.   Just saying.    NOTE THE WORDS "I COULD FALL", okay, that's not blaming them.  It's me falling.
Note your words "because women wear tight clothes". You fall into lust because women wear tight clothes. Once again you are identifying as the cause of your fall something external to yourself--i.e., women wearing tight clothes. If you want to be seen as truly taking responsibility for your own failures and NOT blaming others, try saying something like, "I fall into lust when I see women wearing tight clothes." At least then you would be taking responsibility for your own failure. At least then you would be able to see that the solution to your problem is to avert your eyes so you don't see the women wearing tight clothes.

It's so simple.
Yes, so simple you can't see it.

I don't really need to use the monastics, but for you to cast them off on my point is odd.
I'm not casting off the witness of our monastics. I'm casting off your use of our monastics as a cudgel to turn your own personal preferences into a dogmatic principle.

I could most likely dive into my stash of EO books and excerpt a lot of quotes for you which validate my point as well.
No need for you to cherry-pick from books we know quite well just to continue to give your personal preferences the weight of dogma.

I mean my point would be invalid if there is a difference from tight fitting clothes that monks see and the tight fitting clothes that I see.  I mean by their own admittance and mine, it can both POSSIBLY cause us to lust.
The cause of your lust is what your eyes see, NOT what others wear. If your eyes cause you to lust, then pluck them out. It would be better for you to enter heaven blind than for you to burn with lust. I think that captures Christ's wisdom better than anything you've said on this thread.

The true reason you don't like me using the monasteries multiple dress codes that I posted is because it validates my point - and it's from EO Christians.   They are saying the exact things as I did.
Please don't presume to know my mind, yesh. I've already told you why I don't like your reference to monastic dress codes. That should be enough to keep you from putting words into my mouth.
Not all who wander are lost.

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #823 on: March 02, 2014, 01:15:08 AM »
2. Let's assume that 3 billion are women, given that China and India slate unborn and born females for death thereby creating heavily male populations.

I get the point you're trying to make.  Nevertheless, this kind of sweeping generalisation is exceptionally misleading, ignorant, and entirely unnecessary and regrettable.    
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #824 on: March 02, 2014, 01:17:44 AM »
Quote
While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) -

Eighteen pages of yesh doing the exact opposite .....  :P :P ::)

Good, so in those 18 pages, how about you quote exactly where I "ordered" a woman to do anything.  I merely pointed out my weakness - some other men said they struggle - compared it to the monastics....  That's about it.

I simply said over and over I just hope some women will see this and understand for their brothers in Christ.   It's great to help a brother out - that is the summary.





1.  You say that you no longer attend an Orthodox church.
2.  You are on a forum supposedly for Orthodox Christians telling them that you want female Orthodox Christians to dress as you think they should dress for your comfort.

Back to #1.  



If the argument is more general, and you want females everywhere to dress for your comfort:

1. There are about 7 billion people on the planet at this point, and population is growing exponentially.

2. Let's assume that 3 billion are women, given that China and India slate unborn and born females for death thereby creating heavily male populations.

3. That means 3 billion women would have to log onto OrthodoxChristianity.net and read your plea in English re: dress code.  

4. I haven't done the actual calculation on this because I don't have all the variables, but for estimating purposes, chances are 99.9999 % of them likely will never see you in person.  A higher percentage of them will likely have greater priorities eclipsing your comfort level about their clothing choices.  

5. The most people logged into this site is listed at around 654 people during one day iirc.  

6.  Should the entire world suddenly be outfitted with smartphones or laptops and every woman on the planet logs onto this site in every language of the world, it would probably crash, making your point moot.

7.  Have you considered posting signs around your neighborhood?  If you live in a rural area, you can put a large billboard on your own property with your dress code, or you can paint it on the roof of your barn if you have one close to a highway.  You could post flyers at the feed store, auction yard, grocery store, telephone poles, anywhere you spot a woman dressing outside your comfort zone, etc.  You could put the little tear-off tags on the bottom with your home phone number so confused women can call you for consultation about your comfort level.  If you're really good with matching colors, textures, etc. it might turn into a side fashion consulting business to help busy women get ready for work in the morning.  

8.  There is actually nothing a woman can do that won't cause some man, somewhere to not have inappropriate thoughts about her physical self.    

9.  Some of the highest assault rates on women are probably in populations where women are held to staunchly legalistic male assigned dress code regulations.  

10.  You might very well just be a troll on this issue.  You get bored at home with your properly dressed wife and come online to discuss other women's clothing choices with a bunch of people you will never see.

You forgot #11.
 
Most of the world's women are not even Christians.

But oddly enough your point #9, if you are speaking of Muslim women, many of those volunteer and love to dress in that manner for their faith.

But anyway, your post negates the point of the thread entirely.  I don't have a dress code.  I just hope to show how a weak man (me) falls even subtly into lust on minute things.  Hopefully it makes some women aware and if they care to help, they can choose to on their own.

Just like the video I posted a few posts back, the woman said "I had no idea he struggled with this".

Every woman cannot cater to every individual preference of every other person.  We live in a free society.  

It really doesn't matter how women dress, just being a woman is enough to arouse some men.  

I absolutely agree with you on this last statement.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #825 on: March 02, 2014, 01:26:13 AM »
PROVE IT.  Show me where I blamed women.  Even the thread subject title states my weakness.  I merely showed examples of things that I stumble on, that's it.
This whole thread has been a practice in blaming women for your failures.

Well, the bunch of women then are caught up in themselves to say I am blaming them.  I am not blaming anybody, no more than the MONKS YOU ARE IN COMMUNION WITH blame them.
When the women on this forum wish to visit a monastery, let them submit to the monastery's dress codes. When you cite their example only as support for your request that women "be kind"  to you, you only end up making your request sound more dogmatic than you mean it to be. My advice then: leave the monks out of this discussion. Then you won't use them to speak for you.

Why don't you go a few pages back and actually READ the links I posted and see how the monks need a dress code for women because they would cause them to fall.  This is 100% Eastern Orthodox monks who YOU are in communion with.
I'm familiar with this thread and with your arguments. Browbeating our women with the example of our monks when all you really want to do is speak for yourself will not win you any brownie points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaBnmSyNxHE

Starting a 17:38 through 18:54 here you have a woman who recognizes exactly what I'm saying.
And you have a number of women here who don't like what you're saying because of your accusational tone and your use of our monastics as a cudgel.

I will use monks dress codes because it takes exactly what arguments are against mine and completely validates my points.   You are technically arguing with the monks wishes for women to dress in non-tight clothes because they fall into lust.
When you are on monastery property, you follow the rules set by that monastery. Your constant citing of their example, though, only serves to make your personal preferences into an absolute, dogmatic principle.

Them being men, like me, I could fall into lust because women wear tight clothes.   Just saying.    NOTE THE WORDS "I COULD FALL", okay, that's not blaming them.  It's me falling.
Note your words "because women wear tight clothes". You fall into lust because women wear tight clothes. Once again you are identifying as the cause of your fall something external to yourself--i.e., women wearing tight clothes. If you want to be seen as truly taking responsibility for your own failures and NOT blaming others, try saying something like, "I fall into lust when I see women wearing tight clothes." At least then you would be taking responsibility for your own failure. At least then you would be able to see that the solution to your problem is to avert your eyes so you don't see the women wearing tight clothes.

It's so simple.
Yes, so simple you can't see it.

I don't really need to use the monastics, but for you to cast them off on my point is odd.
I'm not casting off the witness of our monastics. I'm casting off your use of our monastics as a cudgel to turn your own personal preferences into a dogmatic principle.

I could most likely dive into my stash of EO books and excerpt a lot of quotes for you which validate my point as well.
No need for you to cherry-pick from books we know quite well just to continue to give your personal preferences the weight of dogma.

I mean my point would be invalid if there is a difference from tight fitting clothes that monks see and the tight fitting clothes that I see.  I mean by their own admittance and mine, it can both POSSIBLY cause us to lust.
The cause of your lust is what your eyes see, NOT what others wear. If your eyes cause you to lust, then pluck them out. It would be better for you to enter heaven blind than for you to burn with lust. I think that captures Christ's wisdom better than anything you've said on this thread.

The true reason you don't like me using the monasteries multiple dress codes that I posted is because it validates my point - and it's from EO Christians.   They are saying the exact things as I did.
Please don't presume to know my mind, yesh. I've already told you why I don't like your reference to monastic dress codes. That should be enough to keep you from putting words into my mouth.

Well I'm not falling into lust because a squirrel dropped an acorn.

I'm falling into lust if a woman has on tight clothes.  It's completely my fault, from my eyes, because I look at what she wore.  It's not because she wore it, it's because I looked at what she wore (or lack thereof).

That is in no way shape or form blaming a woman.

The monastic point is important.  It's not some kind of scapegoat I play on you.  They state the reason is that they do not want to fall into lust.   It's a fine comparison.

Me not being a monastic, all I did was to try to show women that I stumble easily - even subtly.   There won't be a puddle of drool, but I very well could even unconsciously look. 

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #826 on: March 02, 2014, 01:30:13 AM »
So basically you spent 19 pages telling us what to wear so that you don't have to work on your own sin, but can rather pretend it isn't there by avoidance?
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #827 on: March 02, 2014, 01:38:00 AM »
PROVE IT.  Show me where I blamed women.  Even the thread subject title states my weakness.  I merely showed examples of things that I stumble on, that's it.
This whole thread has been a practice in blaming women for your failures.

Well, the bunch of women then are caught up in themselves to say I am blaming them.  I am not blaming anybody, no more than the MONKS YOU ARE IN COMMUNION WITH blame them.
When the women on this forum wish to visit a monastery, let them submit to the monastery's dress codes. When you cite their example only as support for your request that women "be kind"  to you, you only end up making your request sound more dogmatic than you mean it to be. My advice then: leave the monks out of this discussion. Then you won't use them to speak for you.

Why don't you go a few pages back and actually READ the links I posted and see how the monks need a dress code for women because they would cause them to fall.  This is 100% Eastern Orthodox monks who YOU are in communion with.
I'm familiar with this thread and with your arguments. Browbeating our women with the example of our monks when all you really want to do is speak for yourself will not win you any brownie points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaBnmSyNxHE

Starting a 17:38 through 18:54 here you have a woman who recognizes exactly what I'm saying.
And you have a number of women here who don't like what you're saying because of your accusational tone and your use of our monastics as a cudgel.

I will use monks dress codes because it takes exactly what arguments are against mine and completely validates my points.   You are technically arguing with the monks wishes for women to dress in non-tight clothes because they fall into lust.
When you are on monastery property, you follow the rules set by that monastery. Your constant citing of their example, though, only serves to make your personal preferences into an absolute, dogmatic principle.

Them being men, like me, I could fall into lust because women wear tight clothes.   Just saying.    NOTE THE WORDS "I COULD FALL", okay, that's not blaming them.  It's me falling.
Note your words "because women wear tight clothes". You fall into lust because women wear tight clothes. Once again you are identifying as the cause of your fall something external to yourself--i.e., women wearing tight clothes. If you want to be seen as truly taking responsibility for your own failures and NOT blaming others, try saying something like, "I fall into lust when I see women wearing tight clothes." At least then you would be taking responsibility for your own failure. At least then you would be able to see that the solution to your problem is to avert your eyes so you don't see the women wearing tight clothes.

It's so simple.
Yes, so simple you can't see it.

I don't really need to use the monastics, but for you to cast them off on my point is odd.
I'm not casting off the witness of our monastics. I'm casting off your use of our monastics as a cudgel to turn your own personal preferences into a dogmatic principle.

I could most likely dive into my stash of EO books and excerpt a lot of quotes for you which validate my point as well.
No need for you to cherry-pick from books we know quite well just to continue to give your personal preferences the weight of dogma.

I mean my point would be invalid if there is a difference from tight fitting clothes that monks see and the tight fitting clothes that I see.  I mean by their own admittance and mine, it can both POSSIBLY cause us to lust.
The cause of your lust is what your eyes see, NOT what others wear. If your eyes cause you to lust, then pluck them out. It would be better for you to enter heaven blind than for you to burn with lust. I think that captures Christ's wisdom better than anything you've said on this thread.

The true reason you don't like me using the monasteries multiple dress codes that I posted is because it validates my point - and it's from EO Christians.   They are saying the exact things as I did.
Please don't presume to know my mind, yesh. I've already told you why I don't like your reference to monastic dress codes. That should be enough to keep you from putting words into my mouth.

Well I'm not falling into lust because a squirrel dropped an acorn.

I'm falling into lust if a woman has on tight clothes.  It's completely my fault, from my eyes, because I look at what she wore.  It's not because she wore it, it's because I looked at what she wore (or lack thereof).
Okay, now you're starting to use language that focuses on yourself and what YOU can do to avoid falling into lust. It's not what a woman wears that causes you to fall. It's what you SEE that causes you to fall.

That is in no way shape or form blaming a woman.
The language you have used up to this point has indeed been very accusative. You have continually used language that puts the cause of your failures outside yourself. That may not be your intent, but it is the end result of your improper use of words.

Let's look at some basic semantics.
"I fall into sin because women wear tight clothes." The logic of this sentence implies one solution: Women need to stop wearing tight clothes.

"I fall into sin when I see women wearing tight clothes." The logic of this sentence implies a totally different solution: Do something to avert your eyes so you don't see those women wearing tight clothes. (Who knows? You may even find that women will be more understanding of your desire to protect the purity of your thoughts and may even take the initiative to help you out here. You're much more likely to be successful with this approach than with the cudgel approach you've used so far.)

The monastic point is important.  It's not some kind of scapegoat I play on you.  They state the reason is that they do not want to fall into lust.   It's a fine comparison.
It's an important, fine comparison only if you wish to externalize your personal preferences into some kind of dogma. Otherwise, you do best just not citing the monastic witness at all and letting your failures speak for themselves.

Me not being a monastic, all I did was to try to show women that I stumble easily - even subtly.   There won't be a puddle of drool, but I very well could even unconsciously look.
Then look for the solution inside yourself. Be the example you want others to follow.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 01:39:09 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #828 on: March 02, 2014, 01:50:42 AM »
Easy solution:  wear blinders.  I'm sure you  know how to use them.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #829 on: March 02, 2014, 02:03:10 AM »
Easy solution:  wear blinders.  I'm sure you  know how to use them.

Already being done. Our Orthodox Jewish friends in Israel really have this whole area covered (pun very much intended)

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/09/08/118815.html
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #830 on: March 02, 2014, 02:17:10 AM »
2. Let's assume that 3 billion are women, given that China and India slate unborn and born females for death thereby creating heavily male populations.

I get the point you're trying to make.  Nevertheless, this kind of sweeping generalisation is exceptionally misleading, ignorant, and entirely unnecessary and regrettable.    

It was to get at a general number.  So, are you saying that China doesn't have a one child policy which causes parents to select for boys, and that pre-natal sex determination isn't used in India?   Why is it regrettable to state that as a population effect?

That information has been in newspapers for years, and more recently a documentary made called "It's a Girl"  One of the women in the documentary I recognize from the documentary called 'The Lucky Girls' about Mother Nektaria's girls orphanage in Calcutta. 

It's a Girl  

The Lucky Girls
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 02:38:16 AM by Velsigne »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #831 on: March 02, 2014, 03:08:50 AM »
Easy solution:  wear blinders.  I'm sure you  know how to use them.

Already being done. Our Orthodox Jewish friends in Israel really have this whole area covered (pun very much intended)

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/09/08/118815.html

So are ex-EO Mennonites allowed to use Hasidic techniques?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #832 on: March 02, 2014, 07:05:10 PM »
2. Let's assume that 3 billion are women, given that China and India slate unborn and born females for death thereby creating heavily male populations.

I get the point you're trying to make.  Nevertheless, this kind of sweeping generalisation is exceptionally misleading, ignorant, and entirely unnecessary and regrettable.    

It was to get at a general number.  So, are you saying that China doesn't have a one child policy which causes parents to select for boys, and that pre-natal sex determination isn't used in India?   Why is it regrettable to state that as a population effect?

I won't speak for China, but "pre-natal sex determination" is used in India as it is in the US and anywhere else that ultrasound and other technologies are available.  And there are people in both of those nations (i.e., India and the US) and elsewhere who will abort for this or a number of other reasons.  My objection is in saying that India "slates unborn and born females for death", as if it is a government policy or sanctioned by law.  That's just not true.  I don't deny that there are people who do this, but it happens here too, and yet it would be wrong to say that the US "slates unborn and born females for death".       

Quote
That information has been in newspapers for years...

"Newspapers" and other journalistic outlets have long had a penchant for depicting (and exaggerating) the worst of other nations compared to the best of their own.  Thankfully, we don't have to depend only on their accounts. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Quinault

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #833 on: March 04, 2014, 08:03:48 AM »
I have never heard of an Orthodox monastery having rules about back-flesh and buttons.

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #834 on: March 04, 2014, 08:06:04 AM »
What is that passage of sin regarding your eye causing you to sin again?

Seems to me, you'd have better luck plucking out your eyes than attempting to encourage all women to dress like a Mennonite. ;)

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #835 on: March 04, 2014, 08:10:24 AM »
I don't know who's bandying about what views or who is ultimately justified in them but, yeshuaisiam, I sympathize.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #836 on: March 05, 2014, 12:00:20 PM »
PROVE IT.  Show me where I blamed women.  Even the thread subject title states my weakness.  I merely showed examples of things that I stumble on, that's it.
This whole thread has been a practice in blaming women for your failures.

Well, the bunch of women then are caught up in themselves to say I am blaming them.  I am not blaming anybody, no more than the MONKS YOU ARE IN COMMUNION WITH blame them.
When the women on this forum wish to visit a monastery, let them submit to the monastery's dress codes. When you cite their example only as support for your request that women "be kind"  to you, you only end up making your request sound more dogmatic than you mean it to be. My advice then: leave the monks out of this discussion. Then you won't use them to speak for you.

Why don't you go a few pages back and actually READ the links I posted and see how the monks need a dress code for women because they would cause them to fall.  This is 100% Eastern Orthodox monks who YOU are in communion with.
I'm familiar with this thread and with your arguments. Browbeating our women with the example of our monks when all you really want to do is speak for yourself will not win you any brownie points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaBnmSyNxHE

Starting a 17:38 through 18:54 here you have a woman who recognizes exactly what I'm saying.
And you have a number of women here who don't like what you're saying because of your accusational tone and your use of our monastics as a cudgel.

I will use monks dress codes because it takes exactly what arguments are against mine and completely validates my points.   You are technically arguing with the monks wishes for women to dress in non-tight clothes because they fall into lust.
When you are on monastery property, you follow the rules set by that monastery. Your constant citing of their example, though, only serves to make your personal preferences into an absolute, dogmatic principle.

Them being men, like me, I could fall into lust because women wear tight clothes.   Just saying.    NOTE THE WORDS "I COULD FALL", okay, that's not blaming them.  It's me falling.
Note your words "because women wear tight clothes". You fall into lust because women wear tight clothes. Once again you are identifying as the cause of your fall something external to yourself--i.e., women wearing tight clothes. If you want to be seen as truly taking responsibility for your own failures and NOT blaming others, try saying something like, "I fall into lust when I see women wearing tight clothes." At least then you would be taking responsibility for your own failure. At least then you would be able to see that the solution to your problem is to avert your eyes so you don't see the women wearing tight clothes.

It's so simple.
Yes, so simple you can't see it.

I don't really need to use the monastics, but for you to cast them off on my point is odd.
I'm not casting off the witness of our monastics. I'm casting off your use of our monastics as a cudgel to turn your own personal preferences into a dogmatic principle.

I could most likely dive into my stash of EO books and excerpt a lot of quotes for you which validate my point as well.
No need for you to cherry-pick from books we know quite well just to continue to give your personal preferences the weight of dogma.

I mean my point would be invalid if there is a difference from tight fitting clothes that monks see and the tight fitting clothes that I see.  I mean by their own admittance and mine, it can both POSSIBLY cause us to lust.
The cause of your lust is what your eyes see, NOT what others wear. If your eyes cause you to lust, then pluck them out. It would be better for you to enter heaven blind than for you to burn with lust. I think that captures Christ's wisdom better than anything you've said on this thread.

The true reason you don't like me using the monasteries multiple dress codes that I posted is because it validates my point - and it's from EO Christians.   They are saying the exact things as I did.
Please don't presume to know my mind, yesh. I've already told you why I don't like your reference to monastic dress codes. That should be enough to keep you from putting words into my mouth.

Well I'm not falling into lust because a squirrel dropped an acorn.

I'm falling into lust if a woman has on tight clothes.  It's completely my fault, from my eyes, because I look at what she wore.  It's not because she wore it, it's because I looked at what she wore (or lack thereof).
Okay, now you're starting to use language that focuses on yourself and what YOU can do to avoid falling into lust. It's not what a woman wears that causes you to fall. It's what you SEE that causes you to fall.

That is in no way shape or form blaming a woman.
The language you have used up to this point has indeed been very accusative. You have continually used language that puts the cause of your failures outside yourself. That may not be your intent, but it is the end result of your improper use of words.

Let's look at some basic semantics.
"I fall into sin because women wear tight clothes." The logic of this sentence implies one solution: Women need to stop wearing tight clothes.

"I fall into sin when I see women wearing tight clothes." The logic of this sentence implies a totally different solution: Do something to avert your eyes so you don't see those women wearing tight clothes. (Who knows? You may even find that women will be more understanding of your desire to protect the purity of your thoughts and may even take the initiative to help you out here. You're much more likely to be successful with this approach than with the cudgel approach you've used so far.)

The monastic point is important.  It's not some kind of scapegoat I play on you.  They state the reason is that they do not want to fall into lust.   It's a fine comparison.
It's an important, fine comparison only if you wish to externalize your personal preferences into some kind of dogma. Otherwise, you do best just not citing the monastic witness at all and letting your failures speak for themselves.

Me not being a monastic, all I did was to try to show women that I stumble easily - even subtly.   There won't be a puddle of drool, but I very well could even unconsciously look.
Then look for the solution inside yourself. Be the example you want others to follow.

It almost sounds like you don't accept that people can cause each other to fall into sin however.  Though a person falls it is within themselves, there are catalysts that cause people to fall.

If a woman (not in my example as I was delving superficially deep on purpose) is purposely dressed in skimpy clothing in order to attract lust to herself, when people fall into that lust, it is their own fault, but the woman sins as well in my opinion for inciting others to sin.   Is this not right in your opinion?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #837 on: March 05, 2014, 12:01:23 PM »
I have never heard of an Orthodox monastery having rules about back-flesh and buttons.

You need to read their rules then.   If you are looking for it to specifically say "back-flesh", you probably won't find it.  But back flesh is revealing, and I doubt the monks would really appreciate a woman coming in with plenty of back flesh showing.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #838 on: March 05, 2014, 12:05:59 PM »
What is that passage of sin regarding your eye causing you to sin again?

Seems to me, you'd have better luck plucking out your eyes than attempting to encourage all women to dress like a Mennonite. ;)

Perhaps so, of course, this spoken in symbolism.

Ironically, the monks encourage just about the same dress as Mennonite women. 

I can guarantee you something.  If I go to the Greek Church in Dallas and invite all of the women to a EO monastery, not all would qualify at all for their dress code.  I've been there and know FIRST HAND - and I've been to plenty of monasteries and understand the way they are.

If I invited all the women from my wife's church to a monastery, I bet absolutely nothing would be said about the conservative dress.  I'm sure the monks would be caught off guard of them being Mennonite, but they'd be in their dress code request.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #839 on: March 05, 2014, 12:07:52 PM »
I don't know who's bandying about what views or who is ultimately justified in them but, yeshuaisiam, I sympathize.

Thank you.

This is why I have an admiration of Old Believer women and their dress.  I have yet to see an old believer woman turned to the wardrobe closet at a monastery.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #840 on: March 05, 2014, 12:11:10 PM »
What is that passage of sin regarding your eye causing you to sin again?

Seems to me, you'd have better luck plucking out your eyes than attempting to encourage all women to dress like a Mennonite. ;)

Perhaps so, of course, this spoken in symbolism.

Ironically, the monks encourage just about the same dress as Mennonite women. 

I can guarantee you something.  If I go to the Greek Church in Dallas and invite all of the women to a EO monastery, not all would qualify at all for their dress code.  I've been there and know FIRST HAND - and I've been to plenty of monasteries and understand the way they are.

If I invited all the women from my wife's church to a monastery, I bet absolutely nothing would be said about the conservative dress.  I'm sure the monks would be caught off guard of them being Mennonite, but they'd be in their dress code request.
'




Ahh here we go again with the 'I saw....they don't......" stuff.....perhaps if you were not paying more attention to how the women at the EO church are dressed.........
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #841 on: March 05, 2014, 12:33:05 PM »
Easy solution:  wear blinders.  I'm sure you  know how to use them.

Already being done. Our Orthodox Jewish friends in Israel really have this whole area covered (pun very much intended)

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/09/08/118815.html

So are ex-EO Mennonites allowed to use Hasidic techniques?

I'm not sure they are "allowed", I've never seen a rule against them.  If you read the words of Yeshua, he gives symbolization of plucking out one's eye to not fall into lust.  This subject was covered pretty heavily in the scriptures.  The scriptures not only indicate a man to not lust for other women, but for women to dress modestly.

This would be from different biblical author's original intent of their culture of what not falling into lust and modest dress would be appropriate.

The ironic thing I find in your silly diss attempt, is that it suggests that I'm wanting to latch onto a church teaching.  What is most mis-understood on this forum is that I could not care what traditions people tell me to follow.  I care about the teachings of the scriptures and the earliest Christian traditions and WHAT the apostles and 1st century Christians did in worship.  The rest are man's traditions, pagan influenced tradition, and radical tradition.

Just like icons, they are tradition of men and completely made up, and violates the the 10 commandments of making an image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth, or under the sea.   So the diss is unwarranted, as I try to adhere to biblical standards -

So may I ask you, an image bower & venerator - Matthew 15:6 He need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

The Hasidic Jews go deep, but even then the leaders brought in traditions of men, including a man covering one's head, which of course is anti-biblical (for men to do while praying) as Paul states (which some EO clergy ignore).

1 Corinthians 11
4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head
17 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.



When David covered, it was in shame.

These traditions of men directly defy Early Christian teachings and the Early church.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 12:34:13 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #842 on: March 05, 2014, 12:41:17 PM »
...including a man covering one's head, which of course is anti-biblical (for men to do while praying) as Paul states (which some EO clergy ignore).

I see you wearing a cowboy hat in your picture there. But if you are also following Paul's admonition to pray ceaselessly, then your head can never be covered. Such a poor witness to those around you, and the hypocritical Mennonite men with their hat tradition of men they wear around like Pharisees:



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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #843 on: March 05, 2014, 12:43:21 PM »
So basically you spent 19 pages telling us what to wear so that you don't have to work on your own sin, but can rather pretend it isn't there by avoidance?

Nope, read the thread again.  LOL.

Most of it is people stuck in a crux because they would rather mock my points than accept what their own monks say.  

It is ironic to watch the EO fight for their faith, give apologetics for it, and even accept ecumenism from their bishops, yet they don't even know their own church.   There are books describing exactly what I'm talking about by the EO.  There are dress codes by both churches, monasteries, and convents speaking of exactly what I'm talking about.

Yes, while it is a sin of mine, we are all sinners.  If you were weak to cocaine, I would do everything in my power to not tempt you with cocaine.
 
My guess is more people are weak to "glance" lust than cocaine, and thus we SHOULD as Christians be considerate of the small things which could cause others to fall.   That's the point of 19 pages of mostly ridicule in my direction, because the EO don't even know their own texts and many dress codes.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #844 on: March 05, 2014, 12:47:01 PM »
If a woman (not in my example as I was delving superficially deep on purpose) is purposely dressed in skimpy clothing in order to attract lust to herself, when people fall into that lust, it is their own fault, but the woman sins as well in my opinion for inciting others to sin.   

Sure.  But your entire argument is based on the premise that the woman is intentionally dressing in a particular way in order to achieve a specific effect: inciting feelings of lust in men and attracting attention to herself.  Some women may well have that intention.  Many women may well have that intention.  But it is not necessarily all of them, most of them, many of them, or even some of them who have that intention.  There are many reasons why women may dress in ways that you think are inappropriate, but that may have less to do with sinful women and more to do with your bizarre standards.  

Unless you can read others' hearts, you're better off focusing on reading your own.  
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #845 on: March 05, 2014, 12:47:33 PM »
...including a man covering one's head, which of course is anti-biblical (for men to do while praying) as Paul states (which some EO clergy ignore).

I see you wearing a cowboy hat in your picture there. But if you are also following Paul's admonition to pray ceaselessly, then your head can never be covered. Such a poor witness to those around you, and the hypocritical Mennonite men with their hat tradition of men they wear around like Pharisees:



Yeshua al-bin Messiach have eleison.

There is a difference between a tool and a garment used for a tool, modesty, and religious practice.

Try being out in 105F temps in the high sun and you'll know the definition of sunburn.

But just FYI there are many Amish practices I disagree with in tradition, as they are not biblical.  I have argued with them too.

Most Mennonnite men I know, do not wear hats, unless out in the heat.

The EO clergy as photographed, are using head covering in religious practice.  I can post thousands of photos of EO clergy using head coverings in worship.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #846 on: March 05, 2014, 12:48:46 PM »
What is most mis-understood on this forum is that I could not care what traditions people tell me to follow.  I care about the teachings of the scriptures and the earliest Christian traditions and WHAT the apostles and 1st century Christians did in worship.  The rest are man's traditions, pagan influenced tradition, and radical tradition.

And that is yeshuaisiam's tradition, his pagan influenced tradition, his radical tradition.  Totally unbiblical, even anti-biblical.  
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #847 on: March 05, 2014, 12:51:14 PM »
If a woman (not in my example as I was delving superficially deep on purpose) is purposely dressed in skimpy clothing in order to attract lust to herself, when people fall into that lust, it is their own fault, but the woman sins as well in my opinion for inciting others to sin.   

Sure.  But your entire argument is based on the premise that the woman is intentionally dressing in a particular way in order to achieve a specific effect: inciting feelings of lust in men and attracting attention to herself.  Some women may well have that intention.  Many women may well have that intention.  But it is not necessarily all of them, most of them, many of them, or even some of them who have that intention.  There are many reasons why women may dress in ways that you think are inappropriate, but that may have less to do with sinful women and more to do with your bizarre standards.  

Unless you can read others' hearts, you're better off focusing on reading your own.  

I agree completely.  I do not know what is in their hearts or intent.

They put on jewels (against scripture), lace head coverings (that match cleavage covers), tight clothing, and make up for their own reasons.

You are exactly right, I do not know their intent behind it.  It is not fair for me to assume they do all this to draw attention to themselves.  (yes being sarcastic)
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #848 on: March 05, 2014, 12:56:23 PM »
What is most mis-understood on this forum is that I could not care what traditions people tell me to follow.  I care about the teachings of the scriptures and the earliest Christian traditions and WHAT the apostles and 1st century Christians did in worship.  The rest are man's traditions, pagan influenced tradition, and radical tradition.

And that is yeshuaisiam's tradition, his pagan influenced tradition, his radical tradition.  Totally unbiblical, even anti-biblical.  

So you believe the earliest Christians were pagan influenced and radical?  I'm simply trying to find out what they did and do like them, rather than trusting bishops and pseudo pagan influences on the church.



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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #849 on: March 05, 2014, 01:07:19 PM »
But just FYI there are many Amish practices I disagree with in tradition, as they are not biblical.  I have argued with them too.

You against the world.

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Offline Theophania

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #850 on: March 05, 2014, 01:20:13 PM »
Quote
So may I ask you, an image bower & venerator - Matthew 15:6 He need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

Yesh, I enjoy your posts (most of the time) but saying things like this is uncalled for on an Orthodox forum. I have no idea why your pithy insults of the Orthodox faith are tolerated here.

From reading the entirety of this thread, I'm coming away with a headache and the belief that you hypersexualize EVERYTHING. Flesh peeking out of buttons? Is this for real?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 01:23:41 PM by kelly »
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #851 on: March 05, 2014, 01:21:53 PM »
I agree completely.  I do not know what is in their hearts or intent.

They put on jewels (against scripture), lace head coverings (that match cleavage covers), tight clothing, and make up for their own reasons.

You are exactly right, I do not know their intent behind it.  It is not fair for me to assume they do all this to draw attention to themselves.  (yes being sarcastic)

Well, the most consistent thing would be to reject clothes entirely: they are a result of sin, but Christ has destroyed the power of sin and death and set us free.  Scripture bids us crave for the pure spiritual milk as newborn babes, and we know how naked they are when they are born...and we are "born again".  So we should just become nudists.  

No, I'm not being sarcastic.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #852 on: March 05, 2014, 01:23:34 PM »
I agree completely.  I do not know what is in their hearts or intent.

They put on jewels (against scripture), lace head coverings (that match cleavage covers), tight clothing, and make up for their own reasons.

You are exactly right, I do not know their intent behind it.  It is not fair for me to assume they do all this to draw attention to themselves.  (yes being sarcastic)

Well, the most consistent thing would be to reject clothes entirely: they are a result of sin, but Christ has destroyed the power of sin and death and set us free.  Scripture bids us crave for the pure spiritual milk as newborn babes, and we know how naked they are when they are born...and we are "born again".  So we should just become nudists.  

No, I'm not being sarcastic.


I hear there is a Church for that, Mor...
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #853 on: March 05, 2014, 01:24:04 PM »
And that is yeshuaisiam's tradition, his pagan influenced tradition, his radical tradition.  Totally unbiblical, even anti-biblical.  

So you believe the earliest Christians were pagan influenced and radical?

No, I believe you are pagan influenced and radical.  

Quote
I'm simply trying to find out what they did and do like them, rather than trusting bishops and pseudo pagan influences on the church.

You're doing it wrong.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Theophania

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #854 on: March 05, 2014, 01:24:28 PM »
I agree completely.  I do not know what is in their hearts or intent.

They put on jewels (against scripture), lace head coverings (that match cleavage covers), tight clothing, and make up for their own reasons.

You are exactly right, I do not know their intent behind it.  It is not fair for me to assume they do all this to draw attention to themselves.  (yes being sarcastic)

Well, the most consistent thing would be to reject clothes entirely: they are a result of sin, but Christ has destroyed the power of sin and death and set us free.  Scripture bids us crave for the pure spiritual milk as newborn babes, and we know how naked they are when they are born...and we are "born again".  So we should just become nudists.  

No, I'm not being sarcastic.


I hear there is a Church for that, Mor...

But are they wearing headcoverings??
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.