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Author Topic: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me  (Read 10359 times) Average Rating: 0
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hecma925
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« Reply #765 on: February 04, 2014, 08:08:55 AM »

Women had the right to vote since the 1920's well before women's lib.


Women started wearing pants in the early 1900's, well before women's lib.

Yes, I am aware of it.  Once again may I emphasize that I stated cultural norm (very clearly) and "for the most part".   There are always exceptions.

If you're simply talking of the US, women working in trades and industry wore pants during the '30s and '40s; before "women's lib"; this time period made women wearing pants the norm.
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« Reply #766 on: February 04, 2014, 09:41:48 AM »

A random thought just crossed my brain, given the range of opinions about just what constitutes proper gender appropriate clothing - and from what point in history (as in when did women start wearing pants), who can say what time frame is correct? Why pick the 21st , the 20th or like the Mennonites the 19th century? How about the 17th (Louis XIV anyone?)  or 12th (the Plantagenets were snappy dressers) or 5th? I'm surprised some "Orthodox" cult isn't out there where all dress like they were on icons.
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« Reply #767 on: February 04, 2014, 10:09:56 AM »

And referring to clothing, what makes that which covers the legs inherently male please or a skirt only female?  Clothing among peoples who living in harsh cold climates such as the Inuit and other groups is made as protection against the elements.  Wearing a skirt in an for north Canadian or Siberian winter would be insane leading to severe cold damage to the woman due to loss of body heat.  They are not wearing "men's clothing" when they wear leggins/pants, they are wearing they own.

In Japan both men and women on farms wear a form of trousers called mompe. Wearing a dress/kimono in a rice paddy or to harvest anything is wildly impractical.  

In Pakistan and other parts of that region the salwar kameez is worn by both males and females and consists of loose trousers and a long tunic.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalwar_kameez

The Sarong is a garment of cloth wrapped around the waist (some might call it a "skirt") that is worn by both men and women in many parts of of the world where climates are warmer/hot such as south and southeast Asia.

Unfortunately, you forget one important fact: all of those people are the "unwashed masses" (i.e., unbaptised heathens).  Their cross-dressing is an abomination to the true God, and defending it as if it has some practical reason is not helping to save them from hell, it's just confirming them in their ignorance of Biblical principles.  

Ebor, please, think of the pagan babies, help save them and their parents from the jaws of hell.  You can start by wearing a dress and making me dinner.  Liza is already making me borsch, so I'll leave you to figure out what would balance out the meal.  PM me for my address so you know where to mail it.  But make sure a man takes you to the post office.  I wouldn't want you "getting into trouble" out there...  

Just kidding, Ebor.  

 Cheesy Thanks for the chuckle, Mor.  I knew that you were jesting.

I think it safe to write that as far as all of those people God created them and their cultures and their intelligence and ingenuity to made clothing appropriate to the various climates on the planet where they live.   There's a whole planet of people out there with thousands of years of living, technology, development of skills and abilities and more.  

I've heard of "pagan babies".  I'd give a raised-one-eyebrow emoticon here if there was one.  Wink
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 10:32:40 AM by Ebor » Logged

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« Reply #768 on: February 04, 2014, 10:18:15 AM »

Traditional Hungarian dress.  Men in skirts. Oh my!



Men in mini-skirts!  And garters!  Oh my!


Lapland men dressing like women. Oh my!
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« Reply #769 on: February 04, 2014, 10:18:35 AM »

I don't wear pants. Pants are what men wear inside their trousers. What sensible woman would give up lacy, frilly knickers to wear Y-fronts? Tongue

(In other words: Well, if it ain't them pesky cultural - and linguistic - norms again!)

Also, women worked out of the home (in agriculture, manufacture and trade) many, many centuries before women's lib. Roll Eyes

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy  Thank goodness I wasn't taking a sip of coffee when I read this!  Thanks for the laugh, Arachne.  Yes, there is that language/word use difference to put in the mix.  

There were also all of those women and men who went into service for others in all sorts of capacities- maids, cooks, sewing and doing laundry, cleaning, etc.  Women also were needed as hired workers doing harvest at times... from my reading they were often paid less than men doing the same tasks.  The history of labour is another interesting subject.
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« Reply #770 on: February 04, 2014, 10:20:31 AM »

Excellent examples, Adela!   Smiley

I wonder if the Hungarian couple was a betrothal/marriage portrait.  Those look like very special occasion outfits.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 10:23:06 AM by Ebor » Logged

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« Reply #771 on: February 04, 2014, 10:31:16 AM »

A random thought just crossed my brain, given the range of opinions about just what constitutes proper gender appropriate clothing - and from what point in history (as in when did women start wearing pants), who can say what time frame is correct? Why pick the 21st , the 20th or like the Mennonites the 19th century? How about the 17th (Louis XIV anyone?)  or 12th (the Plantagenets were snappy dressers) or 5th? I'm surprised some "Orthodox" cult isn't out there where all dress like they were on icons.

QFT.   Exactly!  Different times, different places, different climates, different conditions, different occupations. 

Well, if there were such a 'cult' I don't think that many of the males would be wearing trousers/trews/leggings/pants at any rate.  Wink

 
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« Reply #772 on: February 04, 2014, 10:31:45 AM »

Excellent examples, Adela!   Smiley

I wonder if the Hungarian couple was a betrothal/marriage portrait.  Those look like very special occasion outfits.

Yes, I found the Hungarian picture at:
http://www.eldrbarry.net/marriage/htradwed.htm

Though, this is rather traditional for Hungarians who lived out on the plains and were horsemen.  I believe men wore dresses/long skirts until they started riding horses, and that brought about split skirts.



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« Reply #773 on: February 04, 2014, 10:45:52 AM »

These men aren't wearing trousers, and perhaps not pants as well, so they must not be very masculine....

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« Reply #774 on: February 04, 2014, 10:56:10 AM »

These men aren't wearing trousers, and perhaps not pants as well, so they must not be very masculine....



A line from Braveheart seems apropos:

"Argyle Wallace: Did the priest give a poetic benediction? "The Lord bless thee and keep thee...?
Young William: It was in Latin.
Argyle Wallace: You don't speak Latin? Well that's something we shall have to remedy, isn't it?"

 Wink
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« Reply #775 on: February 04, 2014, 11:03:47 AM »

Excellent examples, Adela!   Smiley

I wonder if the Hungarian couple was a betrothal/marriage portrait.  Those look like very special occasion outfits.

Yes, I found the Hungarian picture at:
http://www.eldrbarry.net/marriage/htradwed.htm

Though, this is rather traditional for Hungarians who lived out on the plains and were horsemen.  I believe men wore dresses/long skirts until they started riding horses, and that brought about split skirts.





Thanks for the link. It was just a guess on my part, but one based on looking at the details. 

Another aspect of clothing is what technology and materials are available in a given place and time.  The production of just the cloth or hides is a first step.  The geometry and fitting of trousers/hose/trews is more complex than a tunic/robe/something with a skirt.  Then, as you wrote, when something changes like "Oh look! here are these animals that we've domesticated.  We could ride them! Hmmm, this outfit doesn't work on that."  Things develop and change.
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« Reply #776 on: February 04, 2014, 11:05:11 AM »

These men aren't wearing trousers, and perhaps not pants as well, so they must not be very masculine....



Heheheh.  As a person with some Scottish ancestry this gave me a chuckle.  Remember some of the traditional sports: tossing logs and large rocks about.  Wink
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« Reply #777 on: February 04, 2014, 12:49:53 PM »

These men aren't wearing trousers, and perhaps not pants as well, so they must not be very masculine....



If any of the persons in this thread deserve shunning, it's these. Mothers, this is what happens when you don't give junior enough attention. It's worse than giving them the gay.
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« Reply #778 on: February 04, 2014, 12:58:21 PM »

These men aren't wearing trousers, and perhaps not pants as well, so they must not be very masculine....



If any of the persons in this thread deserve shunning, it's these. Mothers, this is what happens when you don't give junior enough attention. It's worse than giving them the gay.

Why?  Not Mennonite enough for you?
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« Reply #779 on: February 04, 2014, 01:13:08 PM »

These men aren't wearing trousers, and perhaps not pants as well, so they must not be very masculine....



If any of the persons in this thread deserve shunning, it's these. Mothers, this is what happens when you don't give junior enough attention. It's worse than giving them the gay.

I'll bet you wouldn't be so bold as to say that after say a pint or two to their face!  Cheesy

They'll be sending this fellow:



out to 'chat' with you!

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« Reply #780 on: February 04, 2014, 01:43:55 PM »

These men aren't wearing trousers, and perhaps not pants as well, so they must not be very masculine....



If any of the persons in this thread deserve shunning, it's these. Mothers, this is what happens when you don't give junior enough attention. It's worse than giving them the gay.

Why?  Not Mennonite enough for you?

They get him way too excited.

PS: You can bet my son will learn how to wear a kilt properly, including what to do with his sporran.
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« Reply #781 on: February 04, 2014, 02:00:25 PM »

Cheesy Thanks for the chuckle, Mor.  I knew that you were jesting.

I know, but we have weaker brethren and sistren among us.  Wink
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« Reply #782 on: February 04, 2014, 02:17:38 PM »

These men aren't wearing trousers, and perhaps not pants as well, so they must not be very masculine....



If any of the persons in this thread deserve shunning, it's these. Mothers, this is what happens when you don't give junior enough attention. It's worse than giving them the gay.

Why?  Not Mennonite enough for you?

They get him way too excited.

PS: You can bet my son will learn how to wear a kilt properly, including what to do with his sporran.

And then there are those who get too much attention . . .
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« Reply #783 on: February 04, 2014, 05:03:15 PM »

These men aren't wearing trousers, and perhaps not pants as well, so they must not be very masculine....



If any of the persons in this thread deserve shunning, it's these. Mothers, this is what happens when you don't give junior enough attention. It's worse than giving them the gay.

I'll bet you wouldn't be so bold as to say that after say a pint or two to their face!  Cheesy

They'll be sending this fellow:



out to 'chat' with you!



... and that wee lad would only be the beginning.  Shocked
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« Reply #784 on: February 04, 2014, 05:16:41 PM »

Locking topic for clean-up

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« Reply #785 on: February 13, 2014, 05:52:53 PM »

Okay, I don't think there needs to be any splitting topics here.  I will unlock this thread.  I want to let you all know please try your best to keep this on the topic of modesty in clothing and temptations.

Please try not to be cryptic and invite a lot of reports, even though you may not necessarily break the rules.  It's a headache, personally.  Please offer some clarity to your posts or pics you post.  And I pray many of you will offer professional discussions here on this subject, as it is important in many cases.

God bless.

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« Reply #786 on: February 13, 2014, 10:29:21 PM »

Modesty is in the eye of the beholder (as is beauty, go figure).  Behavior and dress of parishioners, men and women, is something that would be dealt with by the parish priest.  If a person has a problem with being distracted, pray and talk with your priest.  In the end, love the person next to you whether they distract you or not.  That will make you a better Christian.
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« Reply #787 on: March 01, 2014, 08:42:04 PM »

Many clerics do not do their jobs and think they have more important things to worry about than modesty, but the little thingsd do matter.  Maybe starting a modesty club or handing out pamphlets or giving talks within individual parishes would help. Start a trend for it.

Without modesty in churches, people are going to end up like Big Anthony did in this story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQWz_V3kvH0
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« Reply #788 on: March 01, 2014, 08:56:26 PM »

starting a modesty club

 Cool
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« Reply #789 on: March 01, 2014, 09:15:18 PM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries. 

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".   
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« Reply #790 on: March 01, 2014, 09:31:17 PM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries.  

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".    


If women choose to wear a tight turtleneck, they could wear a modest vest, blouse, or jacket over that turtleneck. I often do that in cold weather. The turtleneck by itself can be too revealing, but a cotton vest or cotton blouse adds a little warmth while modestly covering one's curves.

Sometimes when we have a heat spell, I forget, so thanks for the reminder.

I think it important to mention that wearing rayon, silk or polyester can be very uncomfortable in warm weather. Thin cotton lawn prints are lovely but very cool and modest in the summer. They make great blouses. Thin cotton lawn solids can be see through. I make slips with the thin cotton lawn solid colors.

I have even seen Eastern Orthodox Priests wear raissas made of black cotton lawn. It keeps them cool especially in 110 to 115 degree weather. Cotton is much better than raissa's made of polyester (plastic) wrap.
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« Reply #791 on: March 01, 2014, 11:30:11 PM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries. 

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".   

They also agree with the premise of MEN dressing appropriately and modestly, yet I don't really see you saying anything about that.
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« Reply #792 on: March 01, 2014, 11:38:18 PM »

Quote
While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) -

Eighteen pages of yesh doing the exact opposite .....  Tongue Tongue Roll Eyes
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« Reply #793 on: March 01, 2014, 11:45:30 PM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries. 

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".   

They also agree with the premise of MEN dressing appropriately and modestly, yet I don't really see you saying anything about that.

Well don't accuse what I don't say, I agree with men dressing modestly 100% of the way.
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« Reply #794 on: March 01, 2014, 11:47:35 PM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries. 

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".   

They also agree with the premise of MEN dressing appropriately and modestly, yet I don't really see you saying anything about that.

Well don't accuse what I don't say, I agree with men dressing modestly 100% of the way.
Your unbalanced focus reveals a lot. You point one finger at the women without seeing how you have three fingers pointing back at you.
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« Reply #795 on: March 01, 2014, 11:47:41 PM »

Quote
While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) -

Eighteen pages of yesh doing the exact opposite .....  Tongue Tongue Roll Eyes

Good, so in those 18 pages, how about you quote exactly where I "ordered" a woman to do anything.  I merely pointed out my weakness - some other men said they struggle - compared it to the monastics....  That's about it.

I simply said over and over I just hope some women will see this and understand for their brothers in Christ.   It's great to help a brother out - that is the summary.

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« Reply #796 on: March 01, 2014, 11:48:48 PM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries. 

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".   

They also agree with the premise of MEN dressing appropriately and modestly, yet I don't really see you saying anything about that.

Well don't accuse what I don't say, I agree with men dressing modestly 100% of the way.
Your unbalanced focus reveals a lot. You point one finger at the women without seeing how you have three fingers pointing back at you.

I don't dress in shorts, tight clothes, or any of that.... I don't know what you are talking about at all.   I dress plainly.
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« Reply #797 on: March 01, 2014, 11:54:31 PM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries.  

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".    


If women choose to wear a tight turtleneck, they could wear a modest vest, blouse, or jacket over that turtleneck. I often do that in cold weather. The turtleneck by itself can be too revealing, but a cotton vest or cotton blouse adds a little warmth while modestly covering one's curves.

Sometimes when we have a heat spell, I forget, so thanks for the reminder.

I think it important to mention that wearing rayon, silk or polyester can be very uncomfortable in warm weather. Thin cotton lawn prints are lovely but very cool and modest in the summer. They make great blouses. Thin cotton lawn solids can be see through. I make slips with the thin cotton lawn solid colors.

I have even seen Eastern Orthodox Priests wear raissas made of black cotton lawn. It keeps them cool especially in 110 to 115 degree weather. Cotton is much better than raissa's made of polyester (plastic) wrap.

Maria, I think you are one of the few people on OC.net that have the capability to understand what I am saying.   You simply are conscious of being modest.   This is a blessing not only for you but for your husband.  This is also very considerate in helping weak men not to fall into lust.   
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« Reply #798 on: March 01, 2014, 11:55:42 PM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries. 

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".   

They also agree with the premise of MEN dressing appropriately and modestly, yet I don't really see you saying anything about that.

Well don't accuse what I don't say, I agree with men dressing modestly 100% of the way.
Your unbalanced focus reveals a lot. You point one finger at the women without seeing how you have three fingers pointing back at you.

I don't dress in shorts, tight clothes, or any of that.... I don't know what you are talking about at all.   I dress plainly.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how you've focused on telling the women how you would like them to dress without saying anything about how men should dress.
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« Reply #799 on: March 01, 2014, 11:57:15 PM »

A reminder from page 1 of this thread:


Vile.

I really agree. The whole OP is pretty much asking you to judge these girls' lust-inducement factor and whether or not they are too sexual, and it was pretty uncomfortable to read.

It is also insulting to men.

What Yesh has posted does nothing to defend the integrity of the male sex. It only reinforces the idea that males are beholden to what their eyes see, and to the passions that this sight may arouse; therefore, the answer, according to this idea, is that women cover themselves to reduce or eliminate being a temptation to men. Yet, does the covering of the female form truly prevent such temptation? Innumerable cultures, western and eastern, ancient and modern, insisted on modest dress for women. Yet, men have continued to lust after women, and even commit sexual assaults and rape on them, even in cultures where the burkha and niqab is mandatory.

Yesh's argument fails in another regard as well: Men and boys are entirely capable of interacting with, and living with, and working with, women and girls, with no shred of sexual distraction. Fathers, brothers and male relatives see their familial females as sexually neutral: anything else has, since time immemorial, been regarded as a monstrous aberration (apart from, perhaps, Egyptian Pharaonic royalty). Therefore, if males are capable, not out of primeval biological instinct (which demeans the male sex as slaves to their eyes and hormones), but out of rational action, of not regarding their female family as sexually distracting, what's to stop them from doing so with other females to whom they are not related?

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« Reply #800 on: March 01, 2014, 11:57:55 PM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries.  

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".    

They also agree with the premise of MEN dressing appropriately and modestly, yet I don't really see you saying anything about that.

Well don't accuse what I don't say, I agree with men dressing modestly 100% of the way.
Your unbalanced focus reveals a lot. You point one finger at the women without seeing how you have three fingers pointing back at you.

I don't dress in shorts, tight clothes, or any of that.... I don't know what you are talking about at all.   I dress plainly.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how you've focused on telling the women how you would like them to dress without saying anything about how men should dress.

Perhaps a new thread needs to be started addressing the immodesty of men.
It would have to be placed in politics for obvious reasons.
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« Reply #801 on: March 02, 2014, 12:01:39 AM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries.  

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".    


If women choose to wear a tight turtleneck, they could wear a modest vest, blouse, or jacket over that turtleneck. I often do that in cold weather. The turtleneck by itself can be too revealing, but a cotton vest or cotton blouse adds a little warmth while modestly covering one's curves.

Sometimes when we have a heat spell, I forget, so thanks for the reminder.

I think it important to mention that wearing rayon, silk or polyester can be very uncomfortable in warm weather. Thin cotton lawn prints are lovely but very cool and modest in the summer. They make great blouses. Thin cotton lawn solids can be see through. I make slips with the thin cotton lawn solid colors.

I have even seen Eastern Orthodox Priests wear raissas made of black cotton lawn. It keeps them cool especially in 110 to 115 degree weather. Cotton is much better than raissa's made of polyester (plastic) wrap.

Maria, I think you are one of the few people on OC.net that have the capability to understand what I am saying.   You simply are conscious of being modest.   This is a blessing not only for you but for your husband.  This is also very considerate in helping weak men not to fall into lust.   

Yesh, you are still refusing to take responsibility for your own actions, and continuing to lay the blame on others. If a "glimpse of back skin under dress buttons" sets you off .....
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« Reply #802 on: March 02, 2014, 12:03:33 AM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries. 

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".   

They also agree with the premise of MEN dressing appropriately and modestly, yet I don't really see you saying anything about that.

Well don't accuse what I don't say, I agree with men dressing modestly 100% of the way.
Your unbalanced focus reveals a lot. You point one finger at the women without seeing how you have three fingers pointing back at you.

I don't dress in shorts, tight clothes, or any of that.... I don't know what you are talking about at all.   I dress plainly.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how you've focused on telling the women how you would like them to dress without saying anything about how men should dress.

Read the topic brother.   It was about my weakness, not women's.
I believe you've taken this thread so far out of context it's beyond anything intended.

I wasn't "telling women how to dress" either.

I was merely trying to make aware that there are struggling brothers out there.  Some agreed with me even on the thread.  The monastery rules even agree with my points on my weakness.

It's like people believe that I'm over here drooling if I see some lady in tight clothes.  That's not the case.  Eyes wander and I try to correct the issue.   Women can help their weaker brothers out by considering there are those who struggle.

It's actually a simple concept.
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« Reply #803 on: March 02, 2014, 12:06:54 AM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries.  

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".    


If women choose to wear a tight turtleneck, they could wear a modest vest, blouse, or jacket over that turtleneck. I often do that in cold weather. The turtleneck by itself can be too revealing, but a cotton vest or cotton blouse adds a little warmth while modestly covering one's curves.

Sometimes when we have a heat spell, I forget, so thanks for the reminder.

I think it important to mention that wearing rayon, silk or polyester can be very uncomfortable in warm weather. Thin cotton lawn prints are lovely but very cool and modest in the summer. They make great blouses. Thin cotton lawn solids can be see through. I make slips with the thin cotton lawn solid colors.

I have even seen Eastern Orthodox Priests wear raissas made of black cotton lawn. It keeps them cool especially in 110 to 115 degree weather. Cotton is much better than raissa's made of polyester (plastic) wrap.

Maria, I think you are one of the few people on OC.net that have the capability to understand what I am saying.   You simply are conscious of being modest.   This is a blessing not only for you but for your husband.  This is also very considerate in helping weak men not to fall into lust.   

Yesh, you are still refusing to take responsibility for your own actions, and continuing to lay the blame on others. If a "glimpse of back skin under dress buttons" sets you off .....

I seriously believe that OC.net is full of trolls.   I didn't say "sets me off".  Good grief man - this is getting ridiculous.

Look, I'm a married man.  I don't want my eyes wandering to a lady's revealing dress.  It's MY FAULT.  I hope that sisters in Christ can see this weakness and consider that men like me can have wandering eyes and CHOOSE to help me out by covering up.

If you are going to argue my points, argue fair and don't exaggerate what I say. 
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« Reply #804 on: March 02, 2014, 12:15:13 AM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries.  

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".    

They also agree with the premise of MEN dressing appropriately and modestly, yet I don't really see you saying anything about that.

Well don't accuse what I don't say, I agree with men dressing modestly 100% of the way.
Your unbalanced focus reveals a lot. You point one finger at the women without seeing how you have three fingers pointing back at you.

I don't dress in shorts, tight clothes, or any of that.... I don't know what you are talking about at all.   I dress plainly.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how you've focused on telling the women how you would like them to dress without saying anything about how men should dress.

Read the topic brother.   It was about my weakness, not women's.
Yes, I have been following this topic quite closely, closely enough to see how you've been blaming women for making you fall. Just like Adam blamed Eve for giving him the apple.

I believe you've taken this thread so far out of context it's beyond anything intended.
No, just calling you out for what you need to be called out for.

I wasn't "telling women how to dress" either.
Note my words very carefully: I stated that you have been telling women how you would like them to dress.

I was merely trying to make aware that there are struggling brothers out there.
Maybe a thread on a public forum is not the right place for you to make this known.

Some agreed with me even on the thread.
I've found that anything anyone says on the Internet will have some people agreeing with it. You can say in a blog post that the moon is made out of green cheese and that the scientific community has been engaged in a colossal conspiracy to hide that fact from us, and some crackpots will agree with you.

The monastery rules even agree with my points on my weakness.
What's the point in even arguing your points on modesty to begin with?

It's like people believe that I'm over here drooling if I see some lady in tight clothes.  That's not the case.  Eyes wander and I try to correct the issue.   Women can help their weaker brothers out by considering there are those who struggle.
You have a bunch of women here who believe you are accusing them and blaming them for your troubles. Maybe you should listen to them and take their concerns seriously. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. Maybe this means you need to shut up and listen.

It's actually a simple concept.
And so is keeping your mouth shut so you don't get so many people needlessly ticked off.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 12:18:21 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #805 on: March 02, 2014, 12:15:46 AM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries.  

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".    

They also agree with the premise of MEN dressing appropriately and modestly, yet I don't really see you saying anything about that.

Well don't accuse what I don't say, I agree with men dressing modestly 100% of the way.
Your unbalanced focus reveals a lot. You point one finger at the women without seeing how you have three fingers pointing back at you.

I don't dress in shorts, tight clothes, or any of that.... I don't know what you are talking about at all.   I dress plainly.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how you've focused on telling the women how you would like them to dress without saying anything about how men should dress.

Perhaps a new thread needs to be started addressing the immodesty of men.
It would have to be placed in politics for obvious reasons.

Yeah the problem is it would just be bent out of context, trolled beyond recognition, and misunderstood anyway.   The next thing you know I'd be accused of being some kind of male stripper flashing people at a theme park.  It's really ridiculous how far this thread went.
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« Reply #806 on: March 02, 2014, 12:23:19 AM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries.  

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".    

They also agree with the premise of MEN dressing appropriately and modestly, yet I don't really see you saying anything about that.

Well don't accuse what I don't say, I agree with men dressing modestly 100% of the way.
Your unbalanced focus reveals a lot. You point one finger at the women without seeing how you have three fingers pointing back at you.

I don't dress in shorts, tight clothes, or any of that.... I don't know what you are talking about at all.   I dress plainly.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how you've focused on telling the women how you would like them to dress without saying anything about how men should dress.

Read the topic brother.   It was about my weakness, not women's.
Yes, I have been following this topic quite closely, closely enough to see how you've been blaming women for making you fall. Just like Adam blamed Eve for giving him the apple.

I believe you've taken this thread so far out of context it's beyond anything intended.
No, just calling you out for what you need to be called out for.

I wasn't "telling women how to dress" either.
Note my words very carefully: I stated that you have been telling women how you would like them to dress.

I was merely trying to make aware that there are struggling brothers out there.
Maybe a thread on a public forum is not the right place for you to make this known.

Some agreed with me even on the thread.
I've found that anything anyone says on the Internet will have some people agreeing with it. You can say in a blog post that the moon is made out of green cheese and that the scientific community has been engaged in a colossal conspiracy to hide that fact from us, and some crackpots will agree with you.

The monastery rules even agree with my points on my weakness.
What's the point in even arguing your points on modesty to begin with?

It's like people believe that I'm over here drooling if I see some lady in tight clothes.  That's not the case.  Eyes wander and I try to correct the issue.   Women can help their weaker brothers out by considering there are those who struggle.
You have a bunch of women here who believe you are accusing them and blaming them for your troubles. Maybe you should listen to them and take their concerns seriously. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. Maybe you need to heed the advice to shut up.

It's actually a simple concept.
And so is keeping your mouth shut so you don't get so many people needlessly ticked off.

PROVE IT.  Show me where I blamed women.  Even the thread subject title states my weakness.  I merely showed examples of things that I stumble on, that's it.

Well, the bunch of women then are caught up in themselves to say I am blaming them.  I am not blaming anybody, no more than the MONKS YOU ARE IN COMMUNION WITH blame them.

Why don't you go a few pages back and actually READ the links I posted and see how the monks need a dress code for women because they would cause them to fall.  This is 100% Eastern Orthodox monks who YOU are in communion with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaBnmSyNxHE

Starting a 17:38 through 18:54 here you have a woman who recognizes exactly what I'm saying. 

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« Reply #807 on: March 02, 2014, 12:27:48 AM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries.  

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".    

They also agree with the premise of MEN dressing appropriately and modestly, yet I don't really see you saying anything about that.

Well don't accuse what I don't say, I agree with men dressing modestly 100% of the way.
Your unbalanced focus reveals a lot. You point one finger at the women without seeing how you have three fingers pointing back at you.

I don't dress in shorts, tight clothes, or any of that.... I don't know what you are talking about at all.   I dress plainly.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how you've focused on telling the women how you would like them to dress without saying anything about how men should dress.

Perhaps a new thread needs to be started addressing the immodesty of men.
It would have to be placed in politics for obvious reasons.

Yeah the problem is it would just be bent out of context, trolled beyond recognition, and misunderstood anyway.   The next thing you know I'd be accused of being some kind of male stripper flashing people at a theme park.  It's really ridiculous how far this thread went.

Yes, I guess OC.net gets its ratings from the ridiculous!
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« Reply #808 on: March 02, 2014, 12:35:19 AM »

The point mostly being missed is that the very concerns which I addressed in this thread is echoed by Eastern Orthodox monastics in their dress code for the monasteries.  

This is because monks directly often address the depthness of sin.   This is something that I admire about the EO monastics and try to put into my life.

So yes, while I believe it is my own sin and weakness, there is similar concern amongst EO monks and I do believe that other men struggle (if not slightly like me).   While I as a man have no place in "ordering" a woman to dress a specific way (nor want to) - the monks DO on their premises.  I was merely trying to "alert" women to the fact that they can help some of their brothers in Christ to not fall into sin by heavily considering their attire.

Should a sister in Christ consider not wearing a lace head covering that matches her lace cleavage "cover"?  That is up to the woman to decide.   But as Christians, we SHOULD consider our brother's and sisters who are weak.

I really believe the thread got out of hand in many places.   The EO monks agree with the premise of women dressed appropriately without tight clothing to help them "avoid temptation".    

They also agree with the premise of MEN dressing appropriately and modestly, yet I don't really see you saying anything about that.

Well don't accuse what I don't say, I agree with men dressing modestly 100% of the way.
Your unbalanced focus reveals a lot. You point one finger at the women without seeing how you have three fingers pointing back at you.

I don't dress in shorts, tight clothes, or any of that.... I don't know what you are talking about at all.   I dress plainly.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how you've focused on telling the women how you would like them to dress without saying anything about how men should dress.

Perhaps a new thread needs to be started addressing the immodesty of men.
It would have to be placed in politics for obvious reasons.

Yeah the problem is it would just be bent out of context, trolled beyond recognition, and misunderstood anyway.   The next thing you know I'd be accused of being some kind of male stripper flashing people at a theme park.  It's really ridiculous how far this thread went.

Yes, I guess OC.net gets its ratings from the ridiculous!

Well really it's like high school/grade school rumor antics.  Exaggeration and contortion to cram points at somebody.  Funny enough, people who look at what I said in this thread and actually check the links where I support it with monastics understanding will see my points well made and agreed with by EO Christians.  Also oddly enough a non-practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian just showed practicing Eastern Orthodox Christians that the very thing he is talking about exists in black and white print from their own monasteries.   There is some strange irony in that for sure.

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« Reply #809 on: March 02, 2014, 12:37:52 AM »

Quote
Show me where I blamed women.  Even the thread subject title states my weakness.  I merely showed examples of things that I stumble on, that's it.

Well, the bunch of women then are caught up in themselves to say I am blaming them.

Yup. blaming the women again, never yourself.

Early on in the thread you posted a slew of photographs of women whose mode of dress you picked apart as immodest for various reasons. The response here from just about everybody, from men as well as women, was that these women were not offensively or immodestly dressed. It also became increasingly obvious that your scrupulosity (glimpse of back skin, close-fitting sleeves with small holes in them, etc) is spiritually unhealthy, yet you have shown NO effort in taking responsibility for your own behavior. Your attitude is indeed the same as Adam blaming Eve for his eating the forbidden fruit.
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