Author Topic: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me  (Read 68776 times)

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Offline LBK

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #675 on: February 02, 2014, 10:36:23 PM »
Quote
no amount of modesty will ever be enough for the man who wants others to perform his acts of ascesis for him.

And Agabus wins the thread.

AXIOS!
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline katherine 2001

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #676 on: February 02, 2014, 11:13:19 PM »
Quote
no amount of modesty will ever be enough for the man who wants others to perform his acts of ascesis for him.

And Agabus wins the thread.

AXIOS!

Exactly.  Since when are we not expected to overcome our passions and temptations?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 11:13:40 PM by katherine 2001 »

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #677 on: February 03, 2014, 01:11:50 AM »
You guys have it all wrong. Yeah is asking for help from women, because we don't understand how often men stumble- even in small ways. Like, if you knew someone was an alcoholic, it would be nice if you didn't invite them to happy hour. In this analogy, men are drunks, looking at women is alcohol consumption, and back flesh is O'Doul's.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #678 on: February 03, 2014, 01:32:40 AM »
...and back flesh is O'Doul's.

And what do you have against back flesh to make such a comparison? 
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Offline LBK

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #679 on: February 03, 2014, 01:53:55 AM »
...and back flesh is O'Doul's.

And what do you have against back flesh to make such a comparison? 

It's not the first time I've called you a treasure.  ;) :laugh: :laugh:
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #680 on: February 03, 2014, 07:56:54 AM »
I usually wear dark colors to church. Blue, brown, black, that kind of thing. My fashion sense is very simple. Blouse and skirt or slacks. A jacket if it's cold or it's raining. I think I qualify as modest.

Slacks?!?!
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #681 on: February 03, 2014, 08:31:09 AM »
I usually wear dark colors to church. Blue, brown, black, that kind of thing. My fashion sense is very simple. Blouse and skirt or slacks. A jacket if it's cold or it's raining. I think I qualify as modest.

Slacks?!?!

Nothing wrong with slacks. :)
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #682 on: February 03, 2014, 09:26:08 AM »
You can see LEGS when a woman wears slacks!
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Ersaia

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #683 on: February 03, 2014, 09:29:26 AM »
You can see LEGS when a woman wears slacks!

God gave LEGs to woman

 ;D


Offline Geh

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #684 on: February 03, 2014, 10:26:44 AM »
Exactly.  Since when are we not expected to overcome our passions and temptations?
This phenomena seems to present itself as a consequence of reflexive modernity and from a rather neoliberal self responsibility culture hence the explosion of self help products and services.

Orthodoxy, I fear, is evangelized in the US as another alternative amongst the therapeutic goop. I just find it dangerous to spiritualize anxieties and problems as something to overcome by means of prayer or counsel from a priest.

Is the OP not a symptom of this?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 10:27:12 AM by Geh »
Quote from: Nikolaostheservant
tonight you die of a heart attack in your sleep. your at the pearly gates wanting to get in but you have not been very good nor have you been very bad, sin wise the scales are even. so to break the tie God asks you to explain this post you made, what u gona say?

Offline Adela

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #685 on: February 03, 2014, 11:06:03 AM »
You can see LEGS when a woman wears slacks!

In Victorian times they used to cover the legs of grand pianos since they were too suggestive of legs.  And "legs" was too suggestive of a word, "limbs" was used in polite society.   ::)

What are you going to do if you have really nice cheekbones?  Forever live your life behind a covering?  One man might "fall" because of legs, the other because of wrists or the nape of a neck, and so on....

What bothered me about the original post was that it seemed to suggest that thinking like a suspicious, judgmental gossip was somehow virtuous.  "This girl must be competing with her sisters in Christ, That girl obviously wants old men to look at her as sexual prey, ...."   I once worked with a very devout Evangelical African American woman who was pregnant with her first child.  She was really emotionally stressed out when she put on weight  during her pregnancy (as all women do) and could not wear her wedding ring out in public because it did not fit.  Why did she have to deal with this stress? Because she was so worried about what people would think if they saw her, a pregnant black woman, out in public without a wedding ring. She was so afraid of being judged by a hurtful stereotype by all of those "virtuous" people who didn't know how devout she was nor that her husband was studying to be a pastor.   Sometimes virtuous people aren't all that virtuous.

Instead of judging the girls that were displayed in the OP, perhaps the thinking should have gone something like:
Gee, that girl might be really worried about passing her Chemistry test. Perhaps she wants to be a nurse and is worried about finding the funds for her education. That girl there might have a grandmother with dementia and is here to pray for her,  This other girl might have unemployed parents and a brother in Afghanistan, Thank God she is here to find some peace,  and that girl over there, perhaps this is her first time in an Orthodox church, she is is in foster care and needs to find a safe place.  God help them all.


Offline biro

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #686 on: February 03, 2014, 11:08:14 AM »
You can see LEGS when a woman wears slacks!

You can barely see my ankles when I wear slacks, if I forgot to wear socks. Usually that's not a problem.

What am I supposed to do, cut off my legs?

You can see more when I do wear a skirt.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Agabus

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #687 on: February 03, 2014, 11:14:22 AM »
What am I supposed to do, cut off my legs?
If it might help a man, get out the bonesaw.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

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Offline Adela

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #688 on: February 03, 2014, 11:24:39 AM »
Does anyone else remember the song "Harper Valley PTA" by Jeannie C Riley?  It's a hoot.  Some people on the PTA have a problem with this young widow wearing her skirt too short.  Showing too much leg.  But, she socks it to them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn4-2qMErgM



Offline Geh

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #689 on: February 03, 2014, 11:25:23 AM »
And Katherine,

The problem is this notion of personal responsibilty. It extends to how we procure health, the accumulation of debt, etc. This responsibility on the individual to maintain themselves, which hardships or illnesses befallen upon them outside of their own control, creates various stressors and anxieties. Merely reciting the Jesus Prayer does little to soften this reality. What should happen is we need to strip this responsibility and notion of choice - which itself is illusory and stressful. The consequences of personal choice can be permanent. Most are not free to choose, but are limited in how much they can operate within their set of "choices". As of now, we only give very few a truer sense of freedom, but that remains solely in the context of the wealthy. The dysfunction that is stunting the many is completely symptomatic of our society and ideologies, which we should change for the benefit of all.
Quote from: Nikolaostheservant
tonight you die of a heart attack in your sleep. your at the pearly gates wanting to get in but you have not been very good nor have you been very bad, sin wise the scales are even. so to break the tie God asks you to explain this post you made, what u gona say?

Offline katherine 2001

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #690 on: February 03, 2014, 12:37:45 PM »
You can see LEGS when a woman wears slacks!

Then why are men wearing them?  They should be wearing floor length kilts so we women don't have to be tempted by seeing their legs!

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #691 on: February 03, 2014, 12:48:08 PM »
Spiritual therapy is not for everyone or every problem or 'hang up' folks have, especially when it comes to matters of a sexual nature. Sometimes, these problems require psychiatric or psychological assistance.

Over the years, it was my observation working in the court system, that those who would transfer responsibility for their own sexual issues and behaviors to the actions of others (as in 'she asked for it by 'dressing this way', 'looking at me that way' and so on and on and on....did not have religious or spiritual problems stemming from sexual matters (excepting those implanted by someone erroneously teaching or misunderstanding religious teachings) but rather, an underlying psychological issue requiring intervention.

Offline Theophania

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #692 on: February 03, 2014, 01:07:45 PM »
You can see LEGS when a woman wears slacks!

Then why are men wearing them?  They should be wearing floor length kilts so we women don't have to be tempted by seeing their legs!

Or a muumuu.

It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #693 on: February 03, 2014, 01:51:17 PM »
What am I supposed to do, cut off my legs?
If it might help a man, get out the bonesaw.

Brilliant polysemikz.

A bonesaw might indeed be the only tool a man ever need for such a weakness.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #694 on: February 03, 2014, 01:57:03 PM »
What am I supposed to do, cut off my legs?
If it might help a man, get out the bonesaw.

Brilliant polysemikz.

A bonesaw might indeed be the only tool a man ever need for such a weakness.


Ba dum dum
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #695 on: February 03, 2014, 03:13:45 PM »
You can see LEGS when a woman wears slacks!

I don't have legs. The mister calls me 'hell on wheels'. :D
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #696 on: February 03, 2014, 03:29:00 PM »
You can see LEGS when a woman wears slacks!

You can barely see my ankles when I wear slacks, if I forgot to wear socks. Usually that's not a problem.

What am I supposed to do, cut off my legs?

You can see more when I do wear a skirt.

I thought it was obvious I'm joking. I apologize.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #697 on: February 03, 2014, 08:40:01 PM »
In most of American history up until women's lib and in most cultures around the world, women wore dresses.  In consideration of the scriptures:

Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

You can argue with the scriptures if you want.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #698 on: February 03, 2014, 08:42:27 PM »
In most of American history up until women's lib and in most cultures around the world, women wore dresses.  In consideration of the scriptures:

Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

You can argue with the scriptures if you want.

Well men didn't wear trousers back then either.

So obey the standards of the time before you tell us to.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #699 on: February 03, 2014, 08:44:08 PM »
In most of American history up until women's lib and in most cultures around the world, women wore dresses.  In consideration of the scriptures:

Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

You can argue with the scriptures if you want.

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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #700 on: February 03, 2014, 09:01:35 PM »
Well men didn't wear trousers back then either.

So obey the standards of the time before you tell us to.

Be like unto the noble Scot:



Some of those kilts can get short, though. Below the knees, gentlemen!
You want your belt to buckle, not your chair.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #701 on: February 03, 2014, 09:03:39 PM »
Well men didn't wear trousers back then either.

So obey the standards of the time before you tell us to.

Be like unto the noble Scot:



Some of those kilts can get short, though. Below the knees, gentlemen!


No no....too tempting! 

If my skirt can't be above my ankles...then he needs to follow that same rule...
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Offline katherine 2001

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #702 on: February 03, 2014, 09:08:25 PM »
Like I said earlier, the kilts would have to be floor length.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #703 on: February 03, 2014, 09:23:04 PM »
Look at that man showing off those meaty calves. Yeah, he knows exactly what he's doing, and it's scandalous!
"The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you." (Isa. 28:20)

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #704 on: February 03, 2014, 09:24:23 PM »
Look at that man showing off those meaty calves. Yeah, he knows exactly what he's doing, and it's scandalous!

The shirt isn't buttoned nearly high enough either.....
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #705 on: February 03, 2014, 09:32:09 PM »
I mean, I'm not judging. Good for him for covering with a skirt at all... but I wonder if he's in competition with his brothers, to show off his calves.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #706 on: February 03, 2014, 09:33:50 PM »
I mean, I'm not judging. Good for him for covering with a skirt at all... but I wonder if he's in competition with his brothers, to show off his calves.


He must be! see the lower socks...he knew he didn't put on the traditional higher socks that would stay at his knee and thus reveal less flesh to the onlookers. 
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #707 on: February 03, 2014, 09:40:37 PM »
In most of American history up until women's lib and in most cultures around the world, women wore dresses.  In consideration of the scriptures:

Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

You can argue with the scriptures if you want.

Well men didn't wear trousers back then either.

So obey the standards of the time before you tell us to.

They did wear different style garments.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #708 on: February 03, 2014, 09:41:20 PM »
In most of American history up until women's lib and in most cultures around the world, women wore dresses.  In consideration of the scriptures:

Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

You can argue with the scriptures if you want.



Asteriktos,

Is that an image from the first big Liturgy after the legalisation of Christianity?  You know, the one where Constantine had all the bishops wear the funny vestments and bring in the new liturgical utensils and icons he invented out of thin air and paganism?  It sure looks like the Great Entrance to me...
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #709 on: February 03, 2014, 09:42:15 PM »
Well men didn't wear trousers back then either.

So obey the standards of the time before you tell us to.

Be like unto the noble Scot:



Some of those kilts can get short, though. Below the knees, gentlemen!

So do you people think God's command was silly or worthless?  I have seen nobody pay respect to it yet, or even care to give credence to its meaning.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #710 on: February 03, 2014, 09:43:27 PM »
So I'd like everybody that thinks the command is worthless or not applicable to explain exactly what this scripture means in the Torah.  These are God's words.

You guys are not arguing with me, but with God's words.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #711 on: February 03, 2014, 09:45:46 PM »
In most of American history up until women's lib and in most cultures around the world, women wore dresses.  In consideration of the scriptures:

Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

You can argue with the scriptures if you want.

Well men didn't wear trousers back then either.

So obey the standards of the time before you tell us to.

They did wear different style garments.


and you are now going to argue that men's trousers and a women's pair are -exactly- the same...

bzzzzzzt  



When that verse was written, there were -no- trousers being worn by pretty much anyone....so applying it -just- to females, and specifically to trousers...is a very erroneous application of the verse.  So since I am fairly sure that most women do not shop in the men's department, we are not wearing men's clothing.  

Honestly, all this fuss just because you can't work on your temptation issue.....
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #712 on: February 03, 2014, 09:48:43 PM »
In most of American history up until women's lib and in most cultures around the world, women wore dresses.  In consideration of the scriptures:

Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

You can argue with the scriptures if you want.

Well men didn't wear trousers back then either.

So obey the standards of the time before you tell us to.

They did wear different style garments.


and you are now going to argue that men's trousers and a women's pair are -exactly- the same...

bzzzzzzt  



When that verse was written, there were -no- trousers being worn by pretty much anyone....so applying it -just- to females, and specifically to trousers...is a very erroneous application of the verse.  So since I am fairly sure that most women do not shop in the men's department, we are not wearing men's clothing.  

Honestly, all this fuss just because you can't work on your temptation issue.....

Tell me what Deuteronomy 22:5 means then, and why God said this.

The verse wasn't just "written", it was the words of God Moses recorded.

It is applied to men as well, and I didn't apply it just to women either.  The discussion in the thread was SLACKS on women.

So tell me what God meant by this verse.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #713 on: February 03, 2014, 09:53:29 PM »
In most of American history up until women's lib and in most cultures around the world, women wore dresses.  In consideration of the scriptures:

Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

You can argue with the scriptures if you want.

Well men didn't wear trousers back then either.

So obey the standards of the time before you tell us to.

They did wear different style garments.


and you are now going to argue that men's trousers and a women's pair are -exactly- the same...

bzzzzzzt  



When that verse was written, there were -no- trousers being worn by pretty much anyone....so applying it -just- to females, and specifically to trousers...is a very erroneous application of the verse.  So since I am fairly sure that most women do not shop in the men's department, we are not wearing men's clothing.  

Honestly, all this fuss just because you can't work on your temptation issue.....

Tell me what Deuteronomy 22:5 means then, and why God said this.

The verse wasn't just "written", it was the words of God Moses recorded.

It is applied to men as well, and I didn't apply it just to women either.  The discussion in the thread was SLACKS on women.

So tell me what God meant by this verse.


so by following this verse...ALL the women you posted as being tempting to you due to holes in the lace of their shirts....alluring head covers...etc.....are well within the verse. 

SO......pick one...are you arguing the verse, or are you arguing what tempts you personally?


you cannot keep switching back and forth when someone traps you in a corner....first it was 'they are ok, but its my problem'

now its

none of you are obeying an OT law.

news flash, we are not under the laws of Moses.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #714 on: February 03, 2014, 09:59:29 PM »
In most of American history up until women's lib and in most cultures around the world, women wore dresses.  In consideration of the scriptures:

Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

You can argue with the scriptures if you want.

Well men didn't wear trousers back then either.

So obey the standards of the time before you tell us to.

They did wear different style garments.


and you are now going to argue that men's trousers and a women's pair are -exactly- the same...

bzzzzzzt  



When that verse was written, there were -no- trousers being worn by pretty much anyone....so applying it -just- to females, and specifically to trousers...is a very erroneous application of the verse.  So since I am fairly sure that most women do not shop in the men's department, we are not wearing men's clothing.  

Honestly, all this fuss just because you can't work on your temptation issue.....

Tell me what Deuteronomy 22:5 means then, and why God said this.

The verse wasn't just "written", it was the words of God Moses recorded.

It is applied to men as well, and I didn't apply it just to women either.  The discussion in the thread was SLACKS on women.

So tell me what God meant by this verse.


so by following this verse...ALL the women you posted as being tempting to you due to holes in the lace of their shirts....alluring head covers...etc.....are well within the verse.  

SO......pick one...are you arguing the verse, or are you arguing what tempts you personally?


you cannot keep switching back and forth when someone traps you in a corner....first it was 'they are ok, but its my problem'

now its

none of you are obeying an OT law.

news flash, we are not under the laws of Moses.

Oh good.

LOL

too much.   Go murder, commit adultery, steal, and lie.... No Moses law eh?
You can't show me 1 single place in the bible that slashed this law.   There are areas of some change in the law, but not eradication.

Explain exactly what the verse meant.  Deuteronomy 22:5.
Oops that's right, you can't, because then you'd have to be on my side of the argument about women wearing men's clothes.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 10:01:22 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #715 on: February 03, 2014, 10:03:29 PM »
In most of American history up until women's lib and in most cultures around the world, women wore dresses.  In consideration of the scriptures:

Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

You can argue with the scriptures if you want.

Well men didn't wear trousers back then either.

So obey the standards of the time before you tell us to.

They did wear different style garments.


and you are now going to argue that men's trousers and a women's pair are -exactly- the same...

bzzzzzzt  



When that verse was written, there were -no- trousers being worn by pretty much anyone....so applying it -just- to females, and specifically to trousers...is a very erroneous application of the verse.  So since I am fairly sure that most women do not shop in the men's department, we are not wearing men's clothing.  

Honestly, all this fuss just because you can't work on your temptation issue.....

Tell me what Deuteronomy 22:5 means then, and why God said this.

The verse wasn't just "written", it was the words of God Moses recorded.

It is applied to men as well, and I didn't apply it just to women either.  The discussion in the thread was SLACKS on women.

So tell me what God meant by this verse.


so by following this verse...ALL the women you posted as being tempting to you due to holes in the lace of their shirts....alluring head covers...etc.....are well within the verse. 

SO......pick one...are you arguing the verse, or are you arguing what tempts you personally?


you cannot keep switching back and forth when someone traps you in a corner....first it was 'they are ok, but its my problem'

now its

none of you are obeying an OT law.

news flash, we are not under the laws of Moses.

Oh good.

LOL

too much.   Go murder, commit adultery, steal, and lie.... No Moses law eh?
You can't show me 1 single place in the bible that slashed this law.   There are areas of some change in the law, but not eradication.

Explain exactly what the verse meant.  Deuteronomy 22:5.
Oops that's right, you can't, because then you'd have to be on my side of the argument.



actually no I wouldn't.


It says 'women, don't wear men's clothing.  men don't wear women's clothing'


it does not say 'of what era'  so applying it specifically to forbid the wearing of trousers by women, is an error, since it could not have been specifically indicating that since they were not in use then.

I do not wear clothing that could allow for anyone to mistake me at all for a man.....nor any actual clothing made FOR men, or a style that is only male.




All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #716 on: February 03, 2014, 10:12:52 PM »
In most of American history up until women's lib and in most cultures around the world, women wore dresses.  In consideration of the scriptures:

Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

You can argue with the scriptures if you want.

Well men didn't wear trousers back then either.

So obey the standards of the time before you tell us to.

They did wear different style garments.


and you are now going to argue that men's trousers and a women's pair are -exactly- the same...

bzzzzzzt  



When that verse was written, there were -no- trousers being worn by pretty much anyone....so applying it -just- to females, and specifically to trousers...is a very erroneous application of the verse.  So since I am fairly sure that most women do not shop in the men's department, we are not wearing men's clothing.  

Honestly, all this fuss just because you can't work on your temptation issue.....

Tell me what Deuteronomy 22:5 means then, and why God said this.

The verse wasn't just "written", it was the words of God Moses recorded.

It is applied to men as well, and I didn't apply it just to women either.  The discussion in the thread was SLACKS on women.

So tell me what God meant by this verse.


so by following this verse...ALL the women you posted as being tempting to you due to holes in the lace of their shirts....alluring head covers...etc.....are well within the verse.  

SO......pick one...are you arguing the verse, or are you arguing what tempts you personally?


you cannot keep switching back and forth when someone traps you in a corner....first it was 'they are ok, but its my problem'

now its

none of you are obeying an OT law.

news flash, we are not under the laws of Moses.

Oh good.

LOL

too much.   Go murder, commit adultery, steal, and lie.... No Moses law eh?
You can't show me 1 single place in the bible that slashed this law.   There are areas of some change in the law, but not eradication.

Explain exactly what the verse meant.  Deuteronomy 22:5.
Oops that's right, you can't, because then you'd have to be on my side of the argument.



actually no I wouldn't.


It says 'women, don't wear men's clothing.  men don't wear women's clothing'


it does not say 'of what era'  so applying it specifically to forbid the wearing of trousers by women, is an error, since it could not have been specifically indicating that since they were not in use then.

I do not wear clothing that could allow for anyone to mistake me at all for a man.....nor any actual clothing made FOR men, or a style that is only male.






Yes, and in my post about this I referenced the cultural norm for MOST of the world for the most part for the last several hundred years.   Women in dresses, men in pants.  I said there was exceptions to the rule.  But for the most part, women wore dresses, men wore pants.

It wasn't until women's lib (for the most part) where women in America began to wear pants instead of dresses.

And one other thing, women are supposed to be keepers at home too!

And once again, look at monastery rules, where women are required to wear modest dresses (by their own admission because of lust).  

This entire thread got sacked when I busted the monastery links.  Every person arguing with my points just got blown out of the water by their own Orthodox brethren - and respected brethren at that - the monastics.

There is no argument past the links I posted to the monastery dress codes that cite "The monks want to avoid sexual temptation" and that people will "be turned away" who don't abide.   If deep thinking and heavy worshiping brothers who dedicate their life to poverty & prayer can deeply think about the sins of lust, then certainly it has merit.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 10:13:49 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #717 on: February 03, 2014, 10:15:17 PM »
So I'd like everybody that thinks the command is worthless or not applicable to explain exactly what this scripture means in the Torah.  These are God's words.

You guys are not arguing with me, but with God's words.

No, we are arguing with your interpretation of God's words. God did not command Moses to say "Pants are for men. Skirts are for women!" As you said, they wore different styles of garments (though both were tunic based), and though they look quite similar to us today, they obviously could tell the difference. In that sense, nothing has changed. If you want to make the argument that God is against cross-dressing, then fine. But you and I and everyone who is familiar with what is customary dress for our time knows the difference between a woman dressing to look like a man, and a woman wearing pants.

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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #718 on: February 03, 2014, 10:16:37 PM »
This entire thread got sacked when I busted the monastery links.  Every person arguing with my points just got blown out of the water by their own Orthodox brethren - and respected brethren at that - the monastics.

It's like we're reading two separate threads.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #719 on: February 03, 2014, 10:18:07 PM »
This entire thread got sacked when I busted the monastery links.  Every person arguing with my points just got blown out of the water by their own Orthodox brethren - and respected brethren at that - the monastics.

It's like we're reading two separate threads.

No, it's the same thread, just two different universes. 
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.