Author Topic: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me  (Read 88343 times)

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Offline LBK

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #540 on: January 28, 2014, 02:52:13 AM »
I find it remarkable that yesh gets all tied in knots over the glimpse of bare skin, yet has no qualms over speculating about the sex life of St Joseph and the Mother of God.

Here's the thread he started on the topic:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51372.0/all.html

Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #541 on: January 28, 2014, 02:54:56 AM »
OMG what are they doing?!?!

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Romaios

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #542 on: January 28, 2014, 02:55:02 AM »
OMG what are they doing?!?!

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

There are various rules and codes in the Orthodox Churches regarding clothing, for laymen, clergy or monastics - for Baptism (shedding the old skin of sin) one is to be stark naked. (As a side note, when Jewish men or women perform their ritual baths in a mikve, nothing is to come between their skin and the water. That's always been the rule.)

You are implying that people who are being baptized transgress some monastic dress code, which is utterly ridiculous.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 03:06:51 AM by Romaios »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #543 on: January 28, 2014, 02:56:13 AM »
So why do monks enforce the dress code?  Why do they dump the burden on women who don't dress to "their" impossibly scrupulous standards for them "falling"?

Interesting.

Reply #438.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline LBK

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #544 on: January 28, 2014, 02:56:52 AM »

"Pray without ceasing."

It's biblical.

Titus 1:15. It's biblical:

To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

Good point.   I guess let's all get naked and be pure, like Adam and Eve (forget God making them clothes) Let's go nudist, because the monks dress code matters not.

God made clothes for Adam and Eve after they had sinned. Before that, they were pure. Just as a baby or little child is pure. The Orthodox funeral service for a deceased child is quite different from that for other laymen. It is full of references to the purity, blessedness and innocence of these little ones.

Yet you even have a problem with baptismal nakedness for children.

More digression.

A baby is a baby and doesn't care.

That poor kid in the photo was old enough to be mortified....

Ah nevermind.

Deflection? You've been doing it throughout the thread, dumping the burden on women who don't dress to your impossibly scrupulous standards for your "failing".

I'll ask again: what effort are you making in overcoming this "weakness" of yours? Yet to hear an answer from you on that.

So why do monks enforce the dress code?  Why do they dump the burden on women who don't dress to "their" impossibly scrupulous standards for them "falling"?

Interesting.

Ahem. Dress codes for monasteries are not impossible, and a great many do not require the sorts of coverage you regard as necessary even in a parish setting.

OTOH, your standard is indeed impossible, short of a burqa or monastic habit.

And you are, again, refusing to answer the question of "what are you doing to overcome your weakness?"
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #545 on: January 28, 2014, 02:59:45 AM »
I find it remarkable that yesh gets all tied in knots over the glimpse of bare skin, yet has no qualms over speculating about the sex life of St Joseph and the Mother of God.

Here's the thread he started on the topic:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51372.0/all.html

I find it remarkable that you don't agree with my OP yet the monks in your own church basically state the exact same things for the exact reason in their dress code.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #546 on: January 28, 2014, 03:00:52 AM »
OMG what are they doing?!?!

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #547 on: January 28, 2014, 03:02:11 AM »

"Pray without ceasing."

It's biblical.

Titus 1:15. It's biblical:

To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

Good point.   I guess let's all get naked and be pure, like Adam and Eve (forget God making them clothes) Let's go nudist, because the monks dress code matters not.

God made clothes for Adam and Eve after they had sinned. Before that, they were pure. Just as a baby or little child is pure. The Orthodox funeral service for a deceased child is quite different from that for other laymen. It is full of references to the purity, blessedness and innocence of these little ones.

Yet you even have a problem with baptismal nakedness for children.

More digression.

A baby is a baby and doesn't care.

That poor kid in the photo was old enough to be mortified....

Ah nevermind.

Deflection? You've been doing it throughout the thread, dumping the burden on women who don't dress to your impossibly scrupulous standards for your "failing".

I'll ask again: what effort are you making in overcoming this "weakness" of yours? Yet to hear an answer from you on that.

So why do monks enforce the dress code?  Why do they dump the burden on women who don't dress to "their" impossibly scrupulous standards for them "falling"?

Interesting.

Ahem. Dress codes for monasteries are not impossible, and a great many do not require the sorts of coverage you regard as necessary even in a parish setting.

OTOH, your standard is indeed impossible, short of a burqa or monastic habit.

And you are, again, refusing to answer the question of "what are you doing to overcome your weakness?"

I pray and work on my weakness consistently.

I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

If monks fall into lust over the exact same thing that I mentioned, then I'm not the only one.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #548 on: January 28, 2014, 03:03:05 AM »
And hey, yesh did seek out mennonite counsel, perhaps everyone should back off him a little in light of what he said there:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13859

You're funny.

Trust me, I don't care about attempts at juvenile cyber bullying.

That's me, read all about it.

But I also found people using the same nickname I have here.  :)

Interesting others would see Yeshua as the son of God's name.

I hope you stay on that forum, and learn about the Mennonite faith.



I was being serious. Cyberbullying? I was suggesting that perhaps your struggle with these issues are more serious and personal than polemical than we are treating them as and thus possibly alienating you further and harming you more than doing good by how this thread is going.

That was my point. Unlike your links, I was looking at the context of your quotes and I see a pained person who I can relate to and hope others do too and perhaps moderate a bit of the tone here even if we disagree as much as we do with you.

That is genuinely my reason for posting that.

One other thing, what alienates me from Orthodox truly - isn't the behavior of others on this forum, nor is it the naked ladies in the Theophany, and it certainly isn't the veiled women in my OP.

It's that the EO will make any excuse to disobey God's commands and sometimes even their own faith if it serves "their purpose".
You seem to be pretty good at that yourself, Yesh. ;)

BTW, what is this "command" you would like to enforce upon all of us?

Somebody with a half a wit of intelligence will one day find these threads and see people compromising their own faith in order to disagree with some quasi Orthodox anomaly.   It's more about being a "part of the church" than any church standard or biblical standard.

This thread is a perfect example of this.  As the ridicule flies of how I know intent of women and how it's "my problem", you will find your own monks in admission to the same exact thing.   It is a slam dunk example of the oddities of the "faithful" not even understanding their own faith nor their brothers in Christ.  I call myself weak, as the EO monks show admission to weakness by their admission to not want to lust.  

So if my arguments are insulted, then you see EO slamming on the monk's own dress code.  Who is alienated from Orthodoxy after all - the one who promotes many monastery's dress codes and consideration of what can cause a man to fall into lust, or those who outright slam it and the concept behind it?
What significance does a monastic dress code have for us who are not monastics?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 03:07:40 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #549 on: January 28, 2014, 03:03:38 AM »
OMG what are they doing?!?!

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

We all were, at one age or another.  ;)

Offline LBK

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #550 on: January 28, 2014, 03:04:28 AM »
I find it remarkable that yesh gets all tied in knots over the glimpse of bare skin, yet has no qualms over speculating about the sex life of St Joseph and the Mother of God.

Here's the thread he started on the topic:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51372.0/all.html

I find it remarkable that you don't agree with my OP yet the monks in your own church basically state the exact same things for the exact reason in their dress code.



More deflection. How is it that a glimpse of skin makes you "fall", yet you have no qualms on talking about the sex life of the holiest and purest woman ever to have walked the earth?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Quinault

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #551 on: January 28, 2014, 03:04:45 AM »
Can you find a single link to a monastic saying that all people should dress like they are attending services at a monastery? Do the guidelines state that everyone must *always* dress in that manner no matter where they are? No, they do not have those types of guidelines.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #552 on: January 28, 2014, 03:06:03 AM »
How does seeking out images that incite you, help you to work on your weakness? You have yet to present a single argument that justifies that.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 03:07:54 AM by Quinault »

Offline LBK

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #553 on: January 28, 2014, 03:07:10 AM »
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 03:08:37 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #554 on: January 28, 2014, 03:07:46 AM »
OMG what are they doing?!?!

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

Guess you were never an athlete? You are lacking context in this thread. I was a wrestler. So it didn't end at looking. I literally had my face in other guys' crotches on the mat separated by the thinnest of material in front of upwards of a thousand people.

NBD.

Now different context with thousand or no people, it would've been another story.

Ever been to the urologist? I have. Since I was 16 due to a large prostate. I've been in a room full of women and men (let's be honest it was like 10) to check out the kid with the prostate of an 80 year old with cancer. It was a teaching hospital. I dropped trough and bent over and was digitally examined by a few strangers.

Different context, different story.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #555 on: January 28, 2014, 03:08:30 AM »
And hey, yesh did seek out mennonite counsel, perhaps everyone should back off him a little in light of what he said there:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13859

You're funny.

Trust me, I don't care about attempts at juvenile cyber bullying.

That's me, read all about it.

But I also found people using the same nickname I have here.  :)

Interesting others would see Yeshua as the son of God's name.

I hope you stay on that forum, and learn about the Mennonite faith.



I was being serious. Cyberbullying? I was suggesting that perhaps your struggle with these issues are more serious and personal than polemical than we are treating them as and thus possibly alienating you further and harming you more than doing good by how this thread is going.

That was my point. Unlike your links, I was looking at the context of your quotes and I see a pained person who I can relate to and hope others do too and perhaps moderate a bit of the tone here even if we disagree as much as we do with you.

That is genuinely my reason for posting that.

One other thing, what alienates me from Orthodox truly - isn't the behavior of others on this forum, nor is it the naked ladies in the Theophany, and it certainly isn't the veiled women in my OP.

It's that the EO will make any excuse to disobey God's commands and sometimes even their own faith if it serves "their purpose".
You seem to be pretty good at that yourself, Yesh. ;)

Somebody with a half a wit of intelligence will one day find these threads and see people compromising their own faith in order to disagree with some quasi Orthodox anomaly.   It's more about being a "part of the church" than any church standard or biblical standard.

This thread is a perfect example of this.  As the ridicule flies of how I know intent of women and how it's "my problem", you will find your own monks in admission to the same exact thing.   It is a slam dunk example of the oddities of the "faithful" not even understanding their own faith nor their brothers in Christ.  I call myself weak, as the EO monks show admission to weakness by their admission to not want to lust.  

So if my arguments are insulted, then you see EO slamming on the monk's own dress code.  Who is alienated from Orthodoxy after all - the one who promotes many monastery's dress codes and consideration of what can cause a man to fall into lust, or those who outright slam it and the concept behind it?
What significance does a monastic dress code have for us who are not monastics?

Monastics are men who fall into lust as any man can.

They setup a dress code in recognition for their weaknesses.  The weaknesses I submitted that I have (though small) are weaknesses.   They recognize these things as I do.  Thus the monastery sets up a dress code to prevent women causing them to fall.  Women are sometimes turned away due to their dress because the monks don't want to fall into lust.

It's the recognition that men fall for simple things, even sheer veils that I was pointing out.  As the ridicule flies in the thread, the irony ran wild as the EO monks state the same basic stuff.

My hope is that women will see that some men fall (even monastics) even in small ways into lust over simple things, such as a sheer veil.   I hope women will take this into consideration on how they dress in front of their brothers in Christ, and amongst other people.

For that I think a woman should see a monastery request, and consider why it is they requested that, and know other men may have the same weakness.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #556 on: January 28, 2014, 03:10:03 AM »
OMG what are they doing?!?!

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

Guess you were never an athlete? You are lacking context in this thread. I was a wrestler. So it didn't end at looking. I literally had my face in other guys' crotches on the mat separated by the thinnest of material in front of upwards of a thousand people.

NBD.

Now different context with thousand or no people, it would've been another story.

Ever been to the urologist? I have. Since I was 16 due to a large prostate. I've been in a room full of women and men (let's be honest it was like 10) to check out the kid with the prostate of an 80 year old with cancer. It was a teaching hospital. I dropped trough and bent over and was digitally examined by a few strangers.

Different context, different story.

So how did you like sitting there naked with 10 women and men looking at you naked?
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #557 on: January 28, 2014, 03:11:56 AM »
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code. 
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #558 on: January 28, 2014, 03:12:23 AM »
OMG what are they doing?!?!

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

Guess you were never an athlete? You are lacking context in this thread. I was a wrestler. So it didn't end at looking. I literally had my face in other guys' crotches on the mat separated by the thinnest of material in front of upwards of a thousand people.

NBD.

Now different context with thousand or no people, it would've been another story.

Ever been to the urologist? I have. Since I was 16 due to a large prostate. I've been in a room full of women and men (let's be honest it was like 10) to check out the kid with the prostate of an 80 year old with cancer. It was a teaching hospital. I dropped trough and bent over and was digitally examined by a few strangers.

Different context, different story.

So how did you like sitting there naked with 10 women and men looking at you naked?

It was no big deal. I dodged the puritanical thing. I felt bad for a few of the new kidz on the block who struggled with the digital exam. They were embarrassed at their own lack of technical expertise.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #559 on: January 28, 2014, 03:13:33 AM »
In all the guidelines I have seen for proper attire at a monastery, I have never seen anything in those guidelines about causing the monks to sin/lust. I have seen terms like; in order to be respectful etc. and the like. I have never seen it stated that anything less than the guidelines is going to cause the resident monastics to get hot and bothered.

Offline LBK

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #560 on: January 28, 2014, 03:14:58 AM »
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code.  
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?

Because you're still lumping all the blame on the women for your failings, never on yourself.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 03:15:12 AM by LBK »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #561 on: January 28, 2014, 03:15:22 AM »
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code.  
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?

You keep saying "even the monks". I've already told you they are not paragons of virtue or anything. So what is your point? They are a group of men who have decided to live together forever without having sexual relations with women.

Sorry, but I am not going to take the rules regarding the how women should dress based by such a group too seriously as binding on the rest of the world.

As * pointed out, you can't have sex with your wife (within the rules) at a monastery, so should you never have sex with her?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 03:15:45 AM by orthonorm »

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #562 on: January 28, 2014, 03:16:29 AM »
Can you find a single link to a monastic saying that all people should dress like they are attending services at a monastery? Do the guidelines state that everyone must *always* dress in that manner no matter where they are? No, they do not have those types of guidelines.

It wasn't my point.  You live in a world of direct orders obviously.  The point of me showing their dress code was because it shows that other men are weak, including EO monks, over trivial issues such as a sheer veil.  I only advocate that women consider this for their brothers, that is all.  

Christianity exists outside of the church as well.  That includes people are Christians when they go to the store, camping, and to a monastery.  

I hope women consider how easily men fall, as I admit, and the dress codes of monks admit.  
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #563 on: January 28, 2014, 03:17:08 AM »
In all the guidelines I have seen for proper attire at a monastery, I have never seen anything in those guidelines about causing the monks to sin/lust. I have seen terms like; in order to be respectful etc. and the like. I have never seen it stated that anything less than the guidelines is going to cause the resident monastics to get hot and bothered.

It's not out of the question that is part of the reason for those who aren't likely homosexual.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #564 on: January 28, 2014, 03:17:51 AM »
And hey, yesh did seek out mennonite counsel, perhaps everyone should back off him a little in light of what he said there:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13859

You're funny.

Trust me, I don't care about attempts at juvenile cyber bullying.

That's me, read all about it.

But I also found people using the same nickname I have here.  :)

Interesting others would see Yeshua as the son of God's name.

I hope you stay on that forum, and learn about the Mennonite faith.



I was being serious. Cyberbullying? I was suggesting that perhaps your struggle with these issues are more serious and personal than polemical than we are treating them as and thus possibly alienating you further and harming you more than doing good by how this thread is going.

That was my point. Unlike your links, I was looking at the context of your quotes and I see a pained person who I can relate to and hope others do too and perhaps moderate a bit of the tone here even if we disagree as much as we do with you.

That is genuinely my reason for posting that.

One other thing, what alienates me from Orthodox truly - isn't the behavior of others on this forum, nor is it the naked ladies in the Theophany, and it certainly isn't the veiled women in my OP.

It's that the EO will make any excuse to disobey God's commands and sometimes even their own faith if it serves "their purpose".
You seem to be pretty good at that yourself, Yesh. ;)

Somebody with a half a wit of intelligence will one day find these threads and see people compromising their own faith in order to disagree with some quasi Orthodox anomaly.   It's more about being a "part of the church" than any church standard or biblical standard.

This thread is a perfect example of this.  As the ridicule flies of how I know intent of women and how it's "my problem", you will find your own monks in admission to the same exact thing.   It is a slam dunk example of the oddities of the "faithful" not even understanding their own faith nor their brothers in Christ.  I call myself weak, as the EO monks show admission to weakness by their admission to not want to lust.  

So if my arguments are insulted, then you see EO slamming on the monk's own dress code.  Who is alienated from Orthodoxy after all - the one who promotes many monastery's dress codes and consideration of what can cause a man to fall into lust, or those who outright slam it and the concept behind it?
What significance does a monastic dress code have for us who are not monastics?

Monastics are men who fall into lust as any man can.

They setup a dress code in recognition for their weaknesses.  The weaknesses I submitted that I have (though small) are weaknesses.   They recognize these things as I do.  Thus the monastery sets up a dress code to prevent women causing them to fall.  Women are sometimes turned away due to their dress because the monks don't want to fall into lust.

It's the recognition that men fall for simple things, even sheer veils that I was pointing out.  As the ridicule flies in the thread, the irony ran wild as the EO monks state the same basic stuff.

My hope is that women will see that some men fall (even monastics) even in small ways into lust over simple things, such as a sheer veil.   I hope women will take this into consideration on how they dress in front of their brothers in Christ, and amongst other people.

For that I think a woman should see a monastery request, and consider why it is they requested that, and know other men may have the same weakness.
Speaking as a man, I can agree with some of the points you raise. I am weak in the eyes and find myself often distracted by what I see of women in revealing outfits. However, I take responsibility for my weakness. I may even communicate, as I am doing now, that this is my weakness in the hope that some women will be sympathetic. I do not blame them, though, for causing me to fall, which it seems you are doing. Again, I take responsibility for my weakness. If a woman wants to be sympathetic and dress in such a manner that she doesn't become an undue distraction for me, then that is her choice. I will even praise her for her modesty. But that is her choice, for which she will have to give her own account before God on Judgment Day. I will not blame her for distracting me if she doesn't dress modestly, for all I can do is take responsibility for my own failure to keep my eyes where they need to be. Again, I take responsibility for my weakness.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 03:18:55 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #565 on: January 28, 2014, 03:18:45 AM »
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code.  
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?

Because you're still lumping all the blame on the women for your failings, never on yourself.

I'm not trying to be rude but is English your first language?

1) I am not blaming women for my failings.
2) Monks admit to the same weakness as I in their dress code
3) Monks forbid women to enter their monastery because they don't want to fall
4) As for me, I hope women consider how easily some men fall (like me) and CHOOSE to cover up.

Blaming women - where?
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #566 on: January 28, 2014, 03:19:35 AM »
No, that is entirely the point.

Listen, most stores have a no shoes, no shirt, no service rule. That doesn't mean that I wear shoes/shirt into the swimming pool.

Many classy restaurants have rules that state that men must wear a dinner jacket. That doesn't mean that all men must always wear a dinner jacket.

You dress for the occasion. When going to a monastery, you dress accordingly. That doesn't mean all people should dress that way all the time.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #567 on: January 28, 2014, 03:20:55 AM »
In all the guidelines I have seen for proper attire at a monastery, I have never seen anything in those guidelines about causing the monks to sin/lust. I have seen terms like; in order to be respectful etc. and the like. I have never seen it stated that anything less than the guidelines is going to cause the resident monastics to get hot and bothered.

It's not out of the question that is part of the reason for those who aren't likely homosexual.

It's actually written out in one of the monastery links I posted (about lust/sexual desire).  But also they require men to wear sleeves and no shorts as some monks may struggle for that. 
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #568 on: January 28, 2014, 03:21:05 AM »
Can you find a single link to a monastic saying that all people should dress like they are attending services at a monastery? Do the guidelines state that everyone must *always* dress in that manner no matter where they are? No, they do not have those types of guidelines.

It wasn't my point.  You live in a world of direct orders obviously.  The point of me showing their dress code was because it shows that other men are weak, including EO monks, over trivial issues such as a sheer veil.  I only advocate that women consider this for their brothers, that is all.  

Christianity exists outside of the church as well.  That includes people are Christians when they go to the store, camping, and to a monastery.  

I hope women consider how easily men fall, as I admit, and the dress codes of monks admit.  

You're still going on about "how easy" it is for men to "fall". Yet men have posted on this thread showing you that this is not at all true.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #569 on: January 28, 2014, 03:21:43 AM »
OK, it's late and what am I doing? I am going to go read about a guy who is a libertine compared to our dear YiM, Mohamed.

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #570 on: January 28, 2014, 03:22:22 AM »
In all the guidelines I have seen for proper attire at a monastery, I have never seen anything in those guidelines about causing the monks to sin/lust. I have seen terms like; in order to be respectful etc. and the like. I have never seen it stated that anything less than the guidelines is going to cause the resident monastics to get hot and bothered.

It's not out of the question that is part of the reason for those who aren't likely homosexual.

No, it isn't out of the question that temptation is one of the reasons, or even part of the reason. But we do indeed attend a church that upholds tradition. And it isn't inconceivable that part of the reason for those rules is tradition, and not meant to be taken as part of the daily rule of life as YIM is attempting to postulate. Monastics actually leave the monastery and don't tackle the nearest woman out of overwhelming desire.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #571 on: January 28, 2014, 03:24:19 AM »
And hey, yesh did seek out mennonite counsel, perhaps everyone should back off him a little in light of what he said there:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13859

You're funny.

Trust me, I don't care about attempts at juvenile cyber bullying.

That's me, read all about it.

But I also found people using the same nickname I have here.  :)

Interesting others would see Yeshua as the son of God's name.

I hope you stay on that forum, and learn about the Mennonite faith.



I was being serious. Cyberbullying? I was suggesting that perhaps your struggle with these issues are more serious and personal than polemical than we are treating them as and thus possibly alienating you further and harming you more than doing good by how this thread is going.

That was my point. Unlike your links, I was looking at the context of your quotes and I see a pained person who I can relate to and hope others do too and perhaps moderate a bit of the tone here even if we disagree as much as we do with you.

That is genuinely my reason for posting that.

One other thing, what alienates me from Orthodox truly - isn't the behavior of others on this forum, nor is it the naked ladies in the Theophany, and it certainly isn't the veiled women in my OP.

It's that the EO will make any excuse to disobey God's commands and sometimes even their own faith if it serves "their purpose".
You seem to be pretty good at that yourself, Yesh. ;)

Somebody with a half a wit of intelligence will one day find these threads and see people compromising their own faith in order to disagree with some quasi Orthodox anomaly.   It's more about being a "part of the church" than any church standard or biblical standard.

This thread is a perfect example of this.  As the ridicule flies of how I know intent of women and how it's "my problem", you will find your own monks in admission to the same exact thing.   It is a slam dunk example of the oddities of the "faithful" not even understanding their own faith nor their brothers in Christ.  I call myself weak, as the EO monks show admission to weakness by their admission to not want to lust.  

So if my arguments are insulted, then you see EO slamming on the monk's own dress code.  Who is alienated from Orthodoxy after all - the one who promotes many monastery's dress codes and consideration of what can cause a man to fall into lust, or those who outright slam it and the concept behind it?
What significance does a monastic dress code have for us who are not monastics?

Monastics are men who fall into lust as any man can.

They setup a dress code in recognition for their weaknesses.  The weaknesses I submitted that I have (though small) are weaknesses.   They recognize these things as I do.  Thus the monastery sets up a dress code to prevent women causing them to fall.  Women are sometimes turned away due to their dress because the monks don't want to fall into lust.

It's the recognition that men fall for simple things, even sheer veils that I was pointing out.  As the ridicule flies in the thread, the irony ran wild as the EO monks state the same basic stuff.

My hope is that women will see that some men fall (even monastics) even in small ways into lust over simple things, such as a sheer veil.   I hope women will take this into consideration on how they dress in front of their brothers in Christ, and amongst other people.

For that I think a woman should see a monastery request, and consider why it is they requested that, and know other men may have the same weakness.
Speaking as a man, I can agree with some of the points you raise. I am weak in the eyes and find myself often distracted by what I see of women in revealing outfits. However, I take responsibility for my weakness. I may even communicate, as I am doing now, that this is my weakness in the hope that some women will be sympathetic. I do not blame them, though, for causing me to fall, which it seems you are doing. Again, I take responsibility for my weakness. If a woman wants to be sympathetic and dress in such a manner that she doesn't become an undue distraction for me, then that is her choice. I will even praise her for her modesty. But that is her choice, for which she will have to give her own account before God on Judgment Day. I will not blame her for distracting me if she doesn't dress modestly, for all I can do is take responsibility for my own failure to keep my eyes where they need to be. Again, I take responsibility for my weakness.

Thank you, as do I take FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY WEAKNESS as well.

I am not blaming women, but hope they will consider the weakness of some men.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #572 on: January 28, 2014, 03:24:44 AM »
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code.  
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?

Because you're still lumping all the blame on the women for your failings, never on yourself.

I'm not trying to be rude but is English your first language?

1) I am not blaming women for my failings.
2) Monks admit to the same weakness as I in their dress code
But the most spiritually advanced of monks can see the body of a scantily clad woman and not be distracted by it.

3) Monks forbid women to enter their monastery because they don't want to fall
That may be true on Mount Athos, but is that true at any other monasteries?

4) As for me, I hope women consider how easily some men fall (like me) and CHOOSE to cover up.
Again, I take responsibility for my own failings.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #573 on: January 28, 2014, 03:25:23 AM »
OK, it's late and what am I doing? I am going to go read about a guy who is a libertine compared to our dear YiM, Mohamed.

LoL, it is late, but I think I'm going to have to be in this barn for a couple more hours!  Have fun.
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Offline Quinault

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #574 on: January 28, 2014, 03:26:09 AM »
No one has touched the St. Mary of Egypt issue.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #575 on: January 28, 2014, 03:27:48 AM »
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code.  
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?

Because you're still lumping all the blame on the women for your failings, never on yourself.

I'm not trying to be rude but is English your first language?

1) I am not blaming women for my failings.
2) Monks admit to the same weakness as I in their dress code
But the most spiritually advanced of monks can see the body of a scantily clad woman and not be distracted by it.

3) Monks forbid women to enter their monastery because they don't want to fall
That may be true on Mount Athos, but is that true at any other monasteries?

4) As for me, I hope women consider how easily some men fall (like me) and CHOOSE to cover up.
Again, I take responsibility for my own failings.

on #4, you are not understanding I don't think.

I do take full responsibility for my own sins.  I hope that women understand that weak men like me struggle and will help me by choosing to cover up.

I don't see how this is blaming them.  I'm not saying "if you would have just covered up I wouldn't have sinned".

I'm merely asking for help because I am weak.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #576 on: January 28, 2014, 03:27:56 AM »
They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

Neither were you, but you are comfortable telling us how the child felt, what the people did to him (i.e., not baptism, but humiliation), etc.  

The child's parents and family are there watching all of this without stopping it--maybe they should be reported to the police for child endangerment?  The child himself doesn't appear to have been forced or otherwise abused by the experience.  At certain points, he even seems to go along with it normally.  Certainly he doesn't behave like someone who has been molested by men in robes in front of a hundred people.    

The only one who has been traumatised is you.    
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #577 on: January 28, 2014, 03:31:58 AM »
They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

Neither were you, but you are comfortable telling us how the child felt, what the people did to him (i.e., not baptism, but humiliation), etc.  

The child's parents and family are there watching all of this without stopping it--maybe they should be reported to the police for child endangerment?  The child himself doesn't appear to have been forced or otherwise abused by the experience.  At certain points, he even seems to go along with it normally.  Certainly he doesn't behave like someone who has been molested by men in robes in front of a hundred people.    

The only one who has been traumatised is you.    

I think back when I was 6-10 years old....
I guess I always wanted to get in a small tub of water with 5-7 adult guys looking at me naked. ::)

You know if daddy and mommy wanted me to do it, I would have just been fine with it.

In seriousness, I know the point you are making.... But what child really wants to do that?  Let him wear his clothes and change into some dry ones later.  What's the big deal after all?

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #578 on: January 28, 2014, 03:33:22 AM »
Yikes, gonna run guys for the night, I'll check back in a few days though... Gotta get prepped over here.  Been fun tonight...

I appreciate all comments, and like all points of view even if disagreement happens. 
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #579 on: January 28, 2014, 03:36:53 AM »
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code.  
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?

Because you're still lumping all the blame on the women for your failings, never on yourself.

I'm not trying to be rude but is English your first language?

1) I am not blaming women for my failings.
2) Monks admit to the same weakness as I in their dress code
But the most spiritually advanced of monks can see the body of a scantily clad woman and not be distracted by it.

3) Monks forbid women to enter their monastery because they don't want to fall
That may be true on Mount Athos, but is that true at any other monasteries?

4) As for me, I hope women consider how easily some men fall (like me) and CHOOSE to cover up.
Again, I take responsibility for my own failings.

on #4, you are not understanding I don't think.

I do take full responsibility for my own sins.  I hope that women understand that weak men like me struggle and will help me by choosing to cover up.

I don't see how this is blaming them.  I'm not saying "if you would have just covered up I wouldn't have sinned".

I'm merely asking for help because I am weak.
I think you might get better results if you ask the women for no help at all. Admit your weakness and leave it at that. If a woman perceives your desire to avoid distraction and takes the initiative to help you achieve your goal by dressing modestly, then praise her for her discernment and her modesty. If she doesn't, then continue taking full responsibility for your failures and say nothing good or bad about her. Don't ask for any help from her.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #580 on: January 28, 2014, 03:37:45 AM »
In seriousness, I know the point you are making.... But what child really wants to do that?  Let him wear his clothes and change into some dry ones later.  What's the big deal after all?

Typology obscured - "skin clothes" (Gen. 3:21 - sin/the old man/the flesh) are shed at baptism. One is reborn, emerging from the font just as from the womb.

Just like triple immersion, it is a big deal.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 03:56:10 AM by Romaios »

Offline Quinault

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #581 on: January 28, 2014, 03:39:14 AM »
I think you might get better results if you ask the women for no help at all. Admit your weakness and leave it at that. If a woman perceives your desire to avoid distraction and takes the initiative to help you achieve your goal by dressing modestly, then praise her for her discernment and her modesty. If she doesn't, then continue taking full responsibility for your failures and say nothing good or bad about her. Don't ask for any help from her.

This. Precisely this.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #582 on: January 28, 2014, 03:43:03 AM »
Although, you could just only attend Orthodox services at a monastery as well. Trying to say that monastic guidelines should be adhered to outside the monastery is just ridiculous.

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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #583 on: January 28, 2014, 04:01:03 AM »
Each devil is also wearing a loincloth, which is more what I had in mind.  

Are they devils?

Poor kid.

Quit twisting stuff up.   Text doesn't have breaths.  Poor kid getting held in front of this whole church butt naked.  I would have been mortified at that child's age.


Look bro, if you want to go to church naked, have naked women at church, and don't think a 7 or whatever year old naked child is wrong, that's your business.  Whatever.

My OP was the point of the thread - backed up with the same concerns of EO monks.

You are great proof American Protestants have very sick views on sexuality or lack thereof.
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Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
« Reply #584 on: January 28, 2014, 04:01:03 AM »
She would not be allowed in an EO monastery.

Thanks God, not to all.
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