Author Topic: Religious Evolution Graph  (Read 2049 times)

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Offline Amatorus

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Religious Evolution Graph
« on: July 18, 2014, 11:12:51 PM »
http://imgur.com/5PpImz8

There are some glaring subtle errors in this (like Christianity directly evolving into Catholicism represented by the Chi Rho), but what are your thoughts on this? One interesting observation is the claim that Atenism influenced Judaism, the theory explained here:

http://home.wavecable.com/~argentdragon/cyberfolio/frames/essay4.html

Any thoughts on this?

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2014, 09:27:24 AM »
http://imgur.com/5PpImz8

There are some glaring subtle errors in this (like Christianity directly evolving into Catholicism represented by the Chi Rho), but what are your thoughts on this? One interesting observation is the claim that Atenism influenced Judaism, the theory explained here:

http://home.wavecable.com/~argentdragon/cyberfolio/frames/essay4.html

Any thoughts on this?
There are a number of potential and actual problems with this graph
1. Egyptian polytheism evolved from East African sources. not Arabian polytheism
2. Atenism probably didn't have any influence on Zoroastrianism
3. Vedic polytheism is a form of Indo-Iranian polytheism, a sister group to Zoroastrianism
4. Neither Jainism nor Buddhism developed from Vedic polytheism; they are different forms of shramanism (not to be confused with shamanism)
5. Where's Scientology?
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2014, 09:57:24 AM »
5. Where's Scientology?

In your nearest mall.
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Offline john_mo

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2014, 10:39:02 AM »
It's very interesting, but the sheer ambition means that their would be some obvious mistakes.  Number 1; where's Orthodoxy?  

EDIT: Upon closer inspection, it's clear that whoever made this went to far in areas they don't know about.  Christianity was influenced by Mithraism? Isn't it the other way around?  At any rate, they shouldn't have attempted to map influence.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 10:53:16 AM by john_mo »
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2014, 10:50:44 AM »
where's Orthodoxy? 
"Christianity: 30 CE"
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Offline john_mo

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2014, 10:54:20 AM »
where's Orthodoxy? 
"Christianity: 30 CE"

Yeah, but then why is Catholicism not at the Great Schism?  Plus, I doubt the person honors Orthodoxy that much or knows enough about it to simply call it "Christianity".
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2014, 11:08:30 AM »
where's Orthodoxy?  
"Christianity: 30 CE"

Yeah, but then why is Catholicism not at the Great Schism?
Showing schisms would probably make the graph that much more hard to read; it seems the author simply depicts a straight line in indicating religion A having its origin in religion B, with any schism being implied. Notice that the graph doesn't show the Protestant schism either -- it just shows Catholicism giving rise to Protestantism.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 11:08:54 AM by Jetavan »
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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2014, 11:14:50 AM »
Upon closer inspection, it's clear that whoever made this went to far in areas they don't know about.  Christianity was influenced by Mithraism? Isn't it the other way around? 
The graph definitely shows Mithraism influencing both Gnosticism and Christianity; there are two dotted-line arrows pointing away from Mithraism. There's also a dotted line connecting Mithraism to Christianity, implying Christian influence on Mithraism.
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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline sakura95

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2014, 11:25:15 AM »
The "Comparison of Atenism and Ancient Judaism" seems to be spurious. It doesn't have citations or evidences to back up the claim it is trying to lean towards which is that Ancient Judaism is influenced by Atenism. While it is correct in mentioning that Atenism is monotheistic, it failed to make mention that it is the result of innovation and synthesis of deities rather than being an original deity not based on any other deity. This is simply akin to Protestantism which derives and takes concepts from Orthodox Christianity and turn them into something else, hence making it an innovation.

Wikipedia paints a different picture than the article which I would cite,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 11:40:01 AM by sakura95 »
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Offline john_mo

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2014, 11:43:14 AM »
where's Orthodoxy?  
"Christianity: 30 CE"

Yeah, but then why is Catholicism not at the Great Schism?
Showing schisms would probably make the graph that much more hard to read; it seems the author simply depicts a straight line in indicating religion A having its origin in religion B, with any schism being implied. Notice that the graph doesn't show the Protestant schism either -- it just shows Catholicism giving rise to Protestantism.


Okay, still.  I really don't think this person was even that concerned with Orthodoxy.  He does seem to have a concept of unified Christianity though.  I would argue that it does show the Protestant schism.  At least the dates are right when it came on the seen.  Catholicism didn't appear until much much later than they indicate.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2014, 12:00:18 PM »
The idea that Confucianism 'evolved' from Shenism is also quite silly, since it's more social philosophy than religion.
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2014, 12:42:51 PM »
Does the theory that Judaism evolved from Canaanite polytheism hold atheistic implications?

Offline john_mo

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2014, 01:10:11 PM »
Does the theory that Judaism evolved from Canaanite polytheism hold atheistic implications?

Although our religion (including Judaism as practiced at the time of Christ) evolved it was sparked by revelation.  A clear and distinct intervention from God. 
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2014, 01:11:41 PM »
Does the theory that Judaism evolved from Canaanite polytheism hold atheistic implications?
Only if (1) polytheism holds atheistic implications or (2) evolution holds atheistic implications.
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2014, 02:00:16 PM »
Does the theory that Judaism evolved from Canaanite polytheism hold atheistic implications?
Only if (1) polytheism holds atheistic implications or (2) evolution holds atheistic implications.

A common atheist argument is "polytheism came from humans trying to understand nature without science" or something.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2014, 02:13:47 PM »
Are you making a statement about polytheism, or what some atheists say about polytheism?

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2014, 08:58:16 PM »
Does the theory that Judaism evolved from Canaanite polytheism hold atheistic implications?
Only if (1) polytheism holds atheistic implications or (2) evolution holds atheistic implications.

A common atheist argument is "polytheism came from humans trying to understand nature without science" or something.
That argument assumes that our ancestors first (1) experienced natural events and then (2) concocted notions of spirits in order to explain those events; whereas it's just as likely that our ancestors first (1) experienced (visually, auditorily, tactilely, e.g.) various spirits and then (2) tried to understand those spirits in terms of their supposed effects upon the natural environment.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 08:59:14 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
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Offline Tallitot

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2014, 09:35:59 PM »
where's Orthodoxy?  
"Christianity: 30 CE"

Yeah, but then why is Catholicism not at the Great Schism?  Plus, I doubt the person honors Orthodoxy that much or knows enough about it to simply call it "Christianity".
Right-there's no hint at a difference between Western and Eastern Christianity or mention of Oriental, Coptic, Indian/Mar Thoma etc. Just Prot. and RC.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 09:36:36 PM by Tallitot »
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2014, 10:26:48 PM »
Are you making a statement about polytheism, or what some atheists say about polytheism?

Some. I have nothing to say about polytheism.

Offline Opus118

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2014, 12:29:45 AM »
http://imgur.com/5PpImz8

There are some glaring subtle errors in this (like Christianity directly evolving into Catholicism represented by the Chi Rho), but what are your thoughts on this? One interesting observation is the claim that Atenism influenced Judaism, the theory explained here:

http://home.wavecable.com/~argentdragon/cyberfolio/frames/essay4.html

Any thoughts on this?

I only have thoughts on the latter link which is very incomplete. It originated with Sigmund Freud (Moses and Monotheism). Tertius Chandler argued that the Exodus occurred following the death of Ikhnaton and that Moses was Ikhnaton's vizier Ramose. (c.f., http://www.progress.org/fold145.htm and http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Tertius-P-Chandler-2757955.php).

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2014, 02:33:12 AM »
where's Orthodoxy?  
"Christianity: 30 CE"

Yeah, but then why is Catholicism not at the Great Schism?
Showing schisms would probably make the graph that much more hard to read; it seems the author simply depicts a straight line in indicating religion A having its origin in religion B, with any schism being implied. Notice that the graph doesn't show the Protestant schism either -- it just shows Catholicism giving rise to Protestantism.


Okay, still.  I really don't think this person was even that concerned with Orthodoxy.  He does seem to have a concept of unified Christianity though.  I would argue that it does show the Protestant schism.  At least the dates are right when it came on the seen.  Catholicism didn't appear until much much later than they indicate.

The graph is pretty incomplete.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2014, 02:42:50 AM »
One interesting observation is the claim that Atenism influenced Judaism, the theory explained here:
It's conjecture, really. Freud was a big proponent of it, even wrote a book about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_and_Monotheism
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Re: Religious Evolution Graph
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2014, 02:44:36 AM »
Does the theory that Judaism evolved from Canaanite polytheism hold atheistic implications?
No.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 02:44:48 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.