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Author Topic: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me  (Read 11869 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« on: January 23, 2014, 03:14:48 PM »

This is a discussion going on in the Faith Issues section.  Since I am currently not practicing Eastern Orthodoxy, I wanted to bring the discussion here.   This is not an intent to bash Eastern Orthodoxy at all by me.  In fact, it is a reflection on the tradition, where Eastern Orthodox women did head cover.   JamesR speaks well beyond his years, as he recognizes the fundamentals of the exploitation of tradition.  Quoting:

Some people are frequently attracted to Orthodoxy by smells and bells and not for its deep spirituality and theology.

What I have found interesting is that precisely those who are most advanced spiritually seem to be the most insistent on such things as head coverings on women, beards on priest, riassas on clergy, etc.  Of course, these things alone are useless if one is not striving to follow the commandments of Christ, repent of their sins, etc.  But, if one reads the lives of contemporary saints and elders, including that great Elder Paisios who is so full of love for everyone, one can find many such instructions and comments encouraging the strict observance of what we have received from the apostles, both external and internal.  

So, once again, we see another false dichotomy.  

You have just proven my point. Obsession with these externals almost always leads to spiritual pride. When you presume to judge the spirituality of another person, clergy or laity, you are guilty of spiritual pride. Who are you to judge who is advanced spiritually or who really understands the teachings of our Church? I know one thing one sure way to know that a person is not really spiritual is that they claim to be spiritual or judge the spirituality of someone else. The truly spiritual person is so consumed with the knowledge of their own sins that they are too busy to judge the spirituality of anyone else.

Fr. John W. Morris

Look I don't have a dog in this argument, but let me tell you of my own weakness.

First I have to open the doorway of understanding.  If a woman comes into church with a tight skirt and low cut shirt, men will "notice".  I think we all agree on this.  She stands out and causes brothers to fall.

If a man sits at a table full of nuns who are all covered, dressed as a nuns, and near the same "age of your particular attraction" (yeah right but stay with me here) a man "MAY" notice who is the prettiest, but will be reminded by her faith and her position.    It's almost like having a smack upside the head to quit being a fleshy beast when seeing their clothes and covering.

If a man sits at a table full of nuns and a "normally dressed" parishoner of the same "age of attraction" joins the group - and is wearing pants, make up, and is not covered - the man is most likely to focus on her and hopefully the wheels won't start turning.

If a nun happens to visit a male monastery, she won't invoke nearly as much as a parishoner who would have long hair and/or pretty hair and figure hugging clothes.

On Mt. Athos, a woman with long beautiful hair flipping it all over would be nearly considered pornographic, as she would be causing some temptation.  In fact there are many parts they are not allowed at all.

In our culture, we see women uncovered all the time, so here is my story -

I was once out on a Mennonite charity function and I was around no other women for 5 days 4 nights than covered modest dressed Mennonite women.  (My wife was raised Mennonite).   Anyway, let me tell you -

We went to a gas station thereafter, and just a "regular worldly dressed woman" came in. (no revealing clothes or anything out of the "norm").  Brothers, I was struggling...   I had no idea I had that type of problem!  It was hair, regular non tight pants, regular shirt....    I seriously realized I had a deep spiritual problem in this area!

I don't know if its me isolated, but I believe we men "look" more than we think we do.  The impact of seeing somebody like that is what I'm comparing to after sitting at a table of nuns.  I also am curious if hair uncovered (a woman's glory) is a distraction to men in the church.

Men if your wife normally covers her hair, and you see her take it down, it grabs your attention doesn't it?  It feels special because it is "saved" for you.   Some on this board could probably vouch for this who have wives that cover except in privacy.

I'm not making any statements towards the EO church or what they should do.  All I can say is if I ever re-attend the church, as a sinner, uncovered hair would cause me some distraction (very small, but existing).

Please be forewarned, I'm trying to delve into the depths of sin.  I don't frown on any of these women, but am only speaking of my weakness, and the weaknesses I've heard other men express on occasion.


If I could just add to this,

The Orthodox head-covering has NOTHING to do with "modesty" and not arousing men. Corinthians makes it clear that it carries mystical significance; St. Paul never said anything about it relating to men.

If that were the case, I'd find a woman dressed in some exotic head-covering to be more arousing and distracting than a woman dressed like "normal."

I think we need to keep the real meaning behind the head-covering in mind when discussing this.

I sent JamesR this link:
http://www.orthodox.net/cotc/modesty.html which shows other Orthodox Christians discussing the modesty in head covering (some).   I bolded JamesR's words.

James brought up an ABSOLUTELY fantastic observation.   Sin, leads people away from God, and causes us to be distracted from our target.  I completely honor Eastern Orthodox nuns as they don't pose (much) distraction for men.  With head coverings, like any other accessories, men can be exploited.  Lacy stylish coverings can be worn in such a way to "attract" men.  

Also, I am going to be fair and NOT post photos of "super models in coverings slothered in make up", but "real women".


For me this would represent young women dressed fairly conservatively.  The one on the left and center seem to be attempting modesty.  The one on the right, covers her head and neck, but leaves a low cut shirt exposed.   Does this make sense?   The other two however, appear to have rather tight clothing, would this cause distraction to any other guys here?   The color of head covering can even cause distraction.   Would these girls compete with head coverings, clothes, etc., with their sisters in Christ?  Do they want to stand out?

Next:


Would this outfit cause you distraction men?  Semi-tight and see through holes on the sleeves?  Though conservative, there is a lot of neck showing.  NO not low cut.  But would it cause you to be distracted in church?

Next:

Would this nun cause you to fall like any of the others?  She is younger, yet her garments would remind me of her place.  She isn't in stylish clothes for distraction and modestly dressed.   Even if you began to slightly fall and just her face causes you to lust, would you not get a "spiritual smack" upside the head by her garments?  She's not competing with her sisters either in clothes.  She's not trying to stand out either.


Next:

Is a black lace veil that matches an outfit and worn this way being used to "enhance" her beauty?  Note the "bling" on the veil, and that it matches the lace on the low cut bust area.  Would this be distracting for you men?  Women do you see this as a submission to God and for modesty, or to give an accessory to an outfit?  (Not judging to young lady, I respect she even covers)


All I can observe from all of this is that if a standard head covering and conservative clothing (similar to nun), that much distraction and competition can occur.

These are some of the arguments I've made in the past on the way Mennonites dress, as it is not for self gain, is not worldly, is not fashionable.  However, most grow to be "family women".


Old order Orthodox are fairly similar.   THERE WERE NOT ANY GOOD PHOTO EXAMPLES.  This is the best I could find.


The way they wear their veils is not for self gain.  The dress seems plain enough.

I do not judge these women.  I believe they are trying.  But I do not think that many women understand how much they can make a brother fall, even if in small ways.  I absolutely can't believe the bikini girls next to the bishops though DURING services (probably Theophany).  I'll spare you those photos.  Every man in that church was probably falling, including the clergy.

So that's my opinion on the matter.  I believe women should consider that men fall on very little things and also that the scriptures AND in most of the tradition of the EO church is about covering and modesty.



« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 03:18:44 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2014, 03:20:08 PM »

I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.
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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2014, 03:36:56 PM »

The American diet has managed to rid me of my weakness.

Anyway, I just gotta say how Islamic of you YiM, placing the moral agency of men on the bodies of women.

Really, your libido ain't that big of a deal.
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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2014, 03:37:29 PM »

I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.

Ponchos? Not modest enough. Burqas for everyone, male and female. Can't let a good-looking face be a source of temptation now, can we?  Tongue
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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2014, 03:37:38 PM »

I'm sorry, but the pictures here are ridiculous to me. As long as the girl doesn't have really tight clothing or too much skin showing, I'm probably not going to notice. Teenage boys will find a way to be attracted to some bizzare things either way, and I don't think that the women need to be disrespected by scrutinizing every thread of every outfit.

To me this thread makes you come off as having an unhealthy obsession with the women around you.
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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2014, 03:40:21 PM »

I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.

Ponchos? Not modest enough. Burqas for everyone, male and female. Can't let a good-looking face be a source of temptation now, can we?  Tongue

That is true, LBK. A niqab to cover the beard is essential.
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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2014, 03:42:21 PM »

I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.

Ponchos? Not modest enough. Burqas for everyone, male and female. Can't let a good-looking face be a source of temptation now, can we?  Tongue

That is true, LBK. A niqab to cover the beard is essential.

What if we find burquas sexy? What if the notion that we men can so dominate women as to turn them into black clouds really arouses us?
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« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2014, 03:42:39 PM »

I'm sorry, but the pictures here are ridiculous to me. As long as the girl doesn't have really tight clothing or too much skin showing, I'm probably not going to notice. Teenage boys will find a way to be attracted to some bizzare things either way, and I don't think that the women need to be disrespected by scrutinizing every thread of every outfit.

To me this thread makes you come off as having an unhealthy obsession with the women around you.

Mor covered this so to speak before and I added to it, but really the solution to pathological male libidinal issues isn't the removal of women and covering them as much as possible when they are around, but rather in the inclusion of women as much as possible in all aspects of life and allowing them to enjoy whatever modesty they wish.

Otherwise, men go a bit crazy, see boys' locker rooms, construction sites, various religious groups, the 50s, etc.
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« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2014, 03:44:31 PM »



For me this would represent young women dressed fairly conservatively.  The one on the left and center seem to be attempting modesty.  The one on the right, covers her head and neck, but leaves a low cut shirt exposed.   Does this make sense?   The other two however, appear to have rather tight clothing, would this cause distraction to any other guys here?   The color of head covering can even cause distraction.   Would these girls compete with head coverings, clothes, etc., with their sisters in Christ?  Do they want to stand out?

Shiny has nothing on you.

Vile.
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« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2014, 03:49:48 PM »

What if we find burquas sexy? What if the notion that we men can so dominate women as to turn them into black clouds really arouses us?

I think that's definitely possible. I think the attitude that women are such sex objects that they need to be covered up in a burqa isn't actually solving anything re: looking upon women lustfully, and totally insulting to men.
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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2014, 03:50:19 PM »

LOL! Take it from someone that has been in a Mennonite community EXACTLY like the ones you posted a picture of (EPMC...it's a particular denomination of Mennonites...one I am VERY familiar with and not looked highly upon, even by other Mennonites). They LOVE fashion! They compete amoungst themselves with their own particular kind of fashion. They rip each other apart over who has too many gathers in their sleeves or kapps and who has few to none. The great debate is skirt length...should it be mid calf or so many inches from the floor? Calf length is high for a tall woman and so many inches from the floor is high for a short woman. Oh, don't forget the hussy that wears a print that is bigger than a quarter and please degrade the person that wears no print as being legalistic.

Sorry, but you are picking apart all the other pictures as much as those Mennonite women pick each other apart.

And I find a major problem with blaming girls for your own failings. You can find someone attractive without stumbling. Any stumbling is your problem. Should Men and Women both dress modestly? Sure. Should either blame the other for any personal stumblings over a person's attire? No. Otherwise, one should lock oneself up.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 03:53:45 PM by Etsi » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2014, 03:51:48 PM »

Shiny has nothing on you.

Vile.

I really agree. The whole OP is pretty much asking you to judge these girls' lust-inducement factor and whether or not they are too sexual, and it was pretty uncomfortable to read.
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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2014, 03:58:49 PM »

Shiny has nothing on you.

Vile.

I really agree. The whole OP is pretty much asking you to judge these girls' lust-inducement factor and whether or not they are too sexual, and it was pretty uncomfortable to read.

It is also insulting to men.

What Yesh has posted does nothing to defend the integrity of the male sex. It only reinforces the idea that males are beholden to what their eyes see, and to the passions that this sight may arouse; therefore, the answer, according to this idea, is that women cover themselves to reduce or eliminate being a temptation to men. Yet, does the covering of the female form truly prevent such temptation? Innumerable cultures, western and eastern, ancient and modern, insisted on modest dress for women. Yet, men have continued to lust after women, and even commit sexual assaults and rape on them, even in cultures where the burkha and niqab is mandatory.

Yesh's argument fails in another regard as well: Men and boys are entirely capable of interacting with, and living with, and working with, women and girls, with no shred of sexual distraction. Fathers, brothers and male relatives see their familial females as sexually neutral: anything else has, since time immemorial, been regarded as a monstrous aberration (apart from, perhaps, Egyptian Pharaonic royalty). Therefore, if males are capable, not out of primeval biological instinct (which demeans the male sex as slaves to their eyes and hormones), but out of rational action, of not regarding their female family as sexually distracting, what's to stop them from doing so with other females to whom they are not related?
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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2014, 04:00:25 PM »

What if we find burquas sexy? What if the notion that we men can so dominate women as to turn them into black clouds really arouses us?

I think that's definitely possible. I think the attitude that women are such sex objects that they need to be covered up in a burqa isn't actually solving anything re: looking upon women lustfully, and totally insulting to men.

TBF, the structure of the burqa is more complex than that and much like sex glass reveals as much at it attempts to obscure often in arguably radical trajectories.  

Spending time around women in burqas is interesting. As is turning a corner on a Saturday night to buy smokes at the local Arabs' and literally running into a woman in a burqa. It put a rather hilarious spin on the worn out plot device.

That time was certainly demonstrative to me as man about many things as is the typical talk in the West around burqas or here about women's modesty and men's weakness.
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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2014, 04:04:47 PM »

Fathers, brothers and male relatives see their familial females as sexually neutral: anything else has, since time immemorial, been regarded as a monstrous aberration

Aberrations are usually considered in the their degree of monstrosity in inverse proportion to the degree they are aberrations. That is another thread and another time. But your statement really does nothing more than highlight the sexual excess of men so speak.
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« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2014, 04:08:50 PM »

Shiny has nothing on you.

Vile.

I really agree. The whole OP is pretty much asking you to judge these girls' lust-inducement factor and whether or not they are too sexual, and it was pretty uncomfortable to read.

Welcome to being a man. TBF to YIM and a point Shiny was trying to make is how sick most guys are really here and pretty much everywhere.

Being a man who isn't sick in this manner, I have to listen to such stuff a lot, especially when I was younger and didn't know how to steer out of such talk. I don't care for girl talk much, whether it be from straight guys, gay guys, or women. For better and worse I had childhood that predisposed me to protecting the intimacy of others, so locker room talk or its inverse, the moralizing talk about women, has never sat well with me.
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« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2014, 04:11:47 PM »

What if we find burquas sexy? What if the notion that we men can so dominate women as to turn them into black clouds really arouses us?

I think that's definitely possible. I think the attitude that women are such sex objects that they need to be covered up in a burqa isn't actually solving anything re: looking upon women lustfully, and totally insulting to men.

TBF, the structure of the burqa is more complex than that and much like sex glass reveals as much at it attempts to obscure often in arguably radical trajectories.  

Spending time around women in burqas is interesting. As is turning a corner on a Saturday night to buy smokes at the local Arabs' and literally running into a woman in a burqa. It put a rather hilarious spin on the worn out plot device.

That time was certainly demonstrative to me as man about many things as is the typical talk in the West around burqas or here about women's modesty and men's weakness.

I agree that burqas are more complex than what we're discussing, but in the context of this thread I think it's an appropriate example (as Alveus highlighted) that even something we perceive as so extreme isn't enough. Dressing myself modestly so that no man is tempted is an impossible standard- and it ain't because I think I'm Helen of Troy. At some point way earlier than the lengths YiM is referencing, the onus is on the viewer to self-regulate.

And my poncho comment was mostly jest, but I am seriously wondering why the burden is always seemingly on women to not tempt men without reference to the flip side? If you (general you) don't think women can also be visually tempted, just mention Magic Mike next time you're around a group of them.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2014, 04:15:34 PM »

Shiny has nothing on you.

Vile.

I really agree. The whole OP is pretty much asking you to judge these girls' lust-inducement factor and whether or not they are too sexual, and it was pretty uncomfortable to read.

Welcome to being a man. TBF to YIM and a point Shiny was trying to make is how sick most guys are really here and pretty much everywhere.

Well, that is a bummer.  Sad
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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2014, 04:17:06 PM »

My officemate, a Hindu from India, and I had a similar conversation.  He felt that Islam was saying men are so weak they can't control themselves so the women have to be covered because of the weakness of men.  My Iranian roommates in college shared that the chador didn't really protect them, out in the street strange men made a game of groping them.  And to what point does this end, to where women have to wear a black veil, socks and gloves in the heat if Saudi Arabia because men freak out if your wrists show?

One one point I agree it's better to dress more modestly with consideration of your environment.  And to not wear prayer veils just because they look good.  My grandmother was a cocktail waitress and I have her prayer veils and they are a bit snazzier than the normal prayer veil.  Shimmery gold lace, or black mesh with gold accent lace, etc.  And I know that I want to wear them, not to be modest, but because they are so becoming.  So I don't wear them.  But it does seem a bit of a punishment of women to expect everyone to dress in an Amish manner.  And some women can look quite sexy fully covered while others can be half naked without the same effect.  Same with men.  So it's kinda subjective.
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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2014, 04:22:24 PM »


It is also insulting to men.

What Yesh has posted does nothing to defend the integrity of the male sex. It only reinforces the idea that males are beholden to what their eyes see, and to the passions that this sight may arouse; therefore, the answer, according to this idea, is that women cover themselves to reduce or eliminate being a temptation to men. Yet, does the covering of the female form truly prevent such temptation? Innumerable cultures, western and eastern, ancient and modern, insisted on modest dress for women. Yet, men have continued to lust after women, and even commit sexual assaults and rape on them, even in cultures where the burkha and niqab is mandatory.

Yesh's argument fails in another regard as well: Men and boys are entirely capable of interacting with, and living with, and working with, women and girls, with no shred of sexual distraction. Fathers, brothers and male relatives see their familial females as sexually neutral: anything else has, since time immemorial, been regarded as a monstrous aberration (apart from, perhaps, Egyptian Pharaonic royalty). Therefore, if males are capable, not out of primeval biological instinct (which demeans the male sex as slaves to their eyes and hormones), but out of rational action, of not regarding their female family as sexually distracting, what's to stop them from doing so with other females to whom they are not related?

He also presumes that sexual stumbling/misconduct/perversions don't happen in societies such as the Mennonite one (hand over those rose coloured glasses...they need to be broken)...he is absolutely WRONG. Sometimes, those are the places where sexual misconduct happens more and even to the point of being crazy scary, because the whole thinking on sexuality is twisted and deflection of person responsibility for one's own actions is the norm.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 04:23:24 PM by Etsi » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2014, 04:25:20 PM »

I don't think it's proper to post people who are supposedly wearing wrong clothes to Church, no matter if it's true or not.

A woman can be beautiful and distracting no matter what she wears, I think the point still stands, to maybe rephrase it:
Veils are about modesty to God and not really about modesty to men.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 04:26:09 PM by Aedificare » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2014, 05:01:38 PM »

LOL! Take it from someone that has been in a Mennonite community EXACTLY like the ones you posted a picture of (EPMC...it's a particular denomination of Mennonites...one I am VERY familiar with and not looked highly upon, even by other Mennonites). They LOVE fashion! They compete amoungst themselves with their own particular kind of fashion. They rip each other apart over who has too many gathers in their sleeves or kapps and who has few to none. The great debate is skirt length...should it be mid calf or so many inches from the floor? Calf length is high for a tall woman and so many inches from the floor is high for a short woman. Oh, don't forget the hussy that wears a print that is bigger than a quarter and please degrade the person that wears no print as being legalistic.

Sorry, but you are picking apart all the other pictures as much as those Mennonite women pick each other apart.

And I find a major problem with blaming girls for your own failings. You can find someone attractive without stumbling. Any stumbling is your problem. Should Men and Women both dress modestly? Sure. Should either blame the other for any personal stumblings over a person's attire? No. Otherwise, one should lock oneself up.

Did you notice the very unhappy, not too sober, expressions on many of Mennonite women in that picture?
What was going on? Have they just finished quarreling? The woman standing in the front (far right side) wearing the very light print dress in turquoise looks like she is being pushed as she is preventing the woman behind her from being seen. Notice the hand touching her on her left arm.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 05:07:07 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2014, 05:10:06 PM »

LOL! Take it from someone that has been in a Mennonite community EXACTLY like the ones you posted a picture of (EPMC...it's a particular denomination of Mennonites...one I am VERY familiar with and not looked highly upon, even by other Mennonites). They LOVE fashion! They compete amoungst themselves with their own particular kind of fashion. They rip each other apart over who has too many gathers in their sleeves or kapps and who has few to none. The great debate is skirt length...should it be mid calf or so many inches from the floor? Calf length is high for a tall woman and so many inches from the floor is high for a short woman. Oh, don't forget the hussy that wears a print that is bigger than a quarter and please degrade the person that wears no print as being legalistic.

Sorry, but you are picking apart all the other pictures as much as those Mennonite women pick each other apart.

And I find a major problem with blaming girls for your own failings. You can find someone attractive without stumbling. Any stumbling is your problem. Should Men and Women both dress modestly? Sure. Should either blame the other for any personal stumblings over a person's attire? No. Otherwise, one should lock oneself up.

Did you notice the very unhappy, not too sober, expressions on many of Mennonite women in that picture?
What was going on? Have they just finished quarreling? The woman standing in the front (far right side) wearing the very light print dress in turquoise looks like she is being pushed as she is preventing the woman behind her from being seen. Notice the hand touching her on her left arm.



It looks like a "street preaching" event. The girls have hymnals in their hands and appear to be waiting to sing. Some may have looked forward to the event and others are may be there because they are expected to be there. (turquoise almost looks like a Kramer and two girls to the left definitely looks like a Weaver...both in physical traits as well as style choices on their dresses LOL!) And, believe it or not, some of those girls have their hair pulled back and others have their hair styled (what we call "wings", which is quite tricky to do and requires time and lots of hairspray or gel). Those are unmarried teens. By the time I took my hair down at night, my head felt like a pin cushion and the hairnets were very damaging. Many of the women in those communities of balding spots from the way they have to pin their hair up to get them under the plastic net kapps (yes, plastic).
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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2014, 05:14:21 PM »

Magic Mike

Depends if they are of the Sex in the City turn Girls crowd or not, which is to say gay men posing as women. I know many, many women who would find such stuff properly repugnant.

Others, not so much. But while Queer Eye for the Straight Guy might be a relatively new thing one could argue, the Gay Lens for Wymynz is not.

Playgirl was never for girlz. And no straight man ever dreamt up the madness of "fashion" and "women's" magazines and the illnesses they have wrought in women.

This has nothing to do with the typical argument about whether women are "visual", I do think most are able to see. The question of women's vision has always been through which man is she doing the seeing? And is there a possibility of sight for a woman without recourse to a man? That is the interesting question.

I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2014, 05:18:49 PM »



For me this would represent young women dressed fairly conservatively.  The one on the left and center seem to be attempting modesty.  The one on the right, covers her head and neck, but leaves a low cut shirt exposed.   Does this make sense?

To be honest, I didn't notice it until you pointed it out.  And upon closer examination, it doesn't seem all that low cut to me unless we're going to define skin as skin to be a problem. 

Quote
The other two however, appear to have rather tight clothing, would this cause distraction to any other guys here?   The color of head covering can even cause distraction.   Would these girls compete with head coverings, clothes, etc., with their sisters in Christ?  Do they want to stand out?

You mean "stand out" like the two guys in the background talking to each other during the Liturgy?  The one wears a pink polo shirt and sneakers, while the other appears to be wearing some sort of tank top/t-shirt (also with sneakers), chit-chatting away during prayer.  None of that bothers you...just the "tight" clothes on the girls lighting candles. 

When I look at that photo, I'm not turned on.  That's no slight to the women depicted, but it is what it is.   

Quote
Next:


Would this outfit cause you distraction men?  Semi-tight and see through holes on the sleeves?  Though conservative, there is a lot of neck showing.  NO not low cut.  But would it cause you to be distracted in church?

She's beautiful. 

I wouldn't be turned on just by noticing that.  I'd have to stand there, like the guy in the pink polo shirt, not paying attention to the Liturgy but gazing at her for a considerable amount of time and imagining stuff in order to be turned on.  At that point, it would not be appropriate to blame "see through holes" and "lot of neck" for my own thoughts. 

Quote
Next:

Would this nun cause you to fall like any of the others?  She is younger, yet her garments would remind me of her place.  She isn't in stylish clothes for distraction and modestly dressed.   Even if you began to slightly fall and just her face causes you to lust, would you not get a "spiritual smack" upside the head by her garments?  She's not competing with her sisters either in clothes.  She's not trying to stand out either.

You know, YiM, people are attracted to what they are attracted to.  Mother Whoeverthatis does nothing for me, but that's not to say that someone else wouldn't be turned on even though the clothes indicate she is a nun.  People are turned on by priests at times too, even though they are vested and standing at the altar.  These are mostly women, but I suppose there are some men among them as well.  Why do the nun and the priest get a pass because of their religious clothes, but not the girls lighting candles?   

Quote
Next:

Is a black lace veil that matches an outfit and worn this way being used to "enhance" her beauty?  Note the "bling" on the veil, and that it matches the lace on the low cut bust area.  Would this be distracting for you men?  Women do you see this as a submission to God and for modesty, or to give an accessory to an outfit?  (Not judging to young lady, I respect she even covers)

Oh brother...

Quote
All I can observe from all of this is that if a standard head covering and conservative clothing (similar to nun), that much distraction and competition can occur.

These are some of the arguments I've made in the past on the way Mennonites dress, as it is not for self gain, is not worldly, is not fashionable.  However, most grow to be "family women".

On what basis do you say that these outfits are not "worldly" or "fashionable"?  Compared to what?  Probably among their own, it is fashionable.  Why, for example, aren't they wearing grey? 

Quote
Old order Orthodox are fairly similar.   THERE WERE NOT ANY GOOD PHOTO EXAMPLES.  This is the best I could find.


The way they wear their veils is not for self gain.  The dress seems plain enough.

What is "self gain"?  And by the standards you used above, there's plenty of "bling" here. 

Quote
I do not judge these women.  I believe they are trying.  But I do not think that many women understand how much they can make a brother fall, even if in small ways.

The brothers need to man up.

Quote
I absolutely can't believe the bikini girls next to the bishops though DURING services (probably Theophany).  I'll spare you those photos.  Every man in that church was probably falling, including the clergy.

So you won't show us a photo, but you're comfortable throwing out that bit of gossip anyway. 

Quote
So that's my opinion on the matter.  I believe women should consider that men fall on very little things and also that the scriptures AND in most of the tradition of the EO church is about covering and modesty.

Even in societies where women are pressured one way or the other into "covering" and "modesty" in ways you would approve of, all that happens is that what previously wasn't sexualised becomes sexualised.  Do you really think that making every woman dress like a nun will stop men from falling if they already have a weakness?  Sexualisation of women, sexual assault, rape, all sorts of atrocities are still committed in such societies.  At least here they are more free to fight back. 
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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2014, 05:22:15 PM »

I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

I'm with you.
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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2014, 05:24:22 PM »

Depends if they are of the Sex in the City turn Girls crowd or not, which is to say gay men posing as women. I know many, many women who would find such stuff properly repugnant.

TBH, I've never seen Magic Mike or Girls, so I can't comment on their repugnant-ness in general, but I can guess.

Quote
Others, not so much. But while Queer Eye for the Straight Guy might be a relatively new thing one could argue, the Gay Lens for Wymynz is not.

Playgirl was never for girlz. And no straight man ever dreamt up the madness of "fashion" and "women's" magazines and the illnesses they have wrought in women.

+100. I'm not delusional enough to claim to be immune from these illnesses, but I agree with this all the same.

Quote
This has nothing to do with the typical argument about whether women are "visual", I do think most are able to see. The question of women's vision has always been through which man is she doing the seeing? And is there a possibility of sight for a woman without recourse to a man? That is the interesting question.

Interesting, and depressing.  Undecided

Quote
I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

That makes two of us.
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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2014, 05:41:18 PM »

I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

I'm with you.

Okay, here are some pictures of the Theophany complete with fat biki clad women and good looking ones too. It is not X-rated, but close to it, so beware. And all this happens with clergy present? Those polar bears!

http://russkij-sever.livejournal.com/1808038.html


p.s. I would certainly not participate in jumping into that ice hole, especially with a biki.
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« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2014, 05:48:43 PM »

I can sympathize with the women on this thread.  I have been treated as a sexual object my entire life by women and men alike.  I am just so goshdarn sexy that women swoon and men stare on in jealousy.  I am followed day and night by women who want to stroke my muscles and have even been hit on by President Obama (ew!).  One time I merely mentioned that I wanted to go to the gun show and three women (I think one might have been a ladyboy...he/she/it had that look about him/her/it) ran up and tore my shirt off.  One of them was an octogenarian and died of a heart attack.  The paramedics tried to revive her but then saw my glistening abs and couldn't help but oggle them.  How would you like that on your conscience?  Not only did I cause my brothers, sisters, and that lady boy to stumble, but it even ended up costing one of them their life?  One time I was at the club dancing to some wikked dubstep and a couple who had just gotten married promptly filed for divorce so they could both pursue my affections.  I have tried dressing more modestly but my muscles and gender-designating features are so large they tear through normal fabric so I have had to switch over to wearing full chain mail at church just to get the women folk not to notice me...but now they all ask if I will be their knight in shining armour?

Seriously, what am I to do?  I really wish these people would overcome their temptations and just let me live my life.
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« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2014, 05:54:40 PM »

I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

I'm with you.

Okay, here are some pictures of the Theophany complete with fat biki clad women and good looking ones too. It is not X-rated, but close to it, so beware. And all this happens with clergy present? Those polar bears!

http://russkij-sever.livejournal.com/1808038.html


p.s. I would certainly not participate in jumping into that ice hole, especially with a biki.

My, I hope those women don't stumble with all those men running around in their briefs and bare chests! Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2014, 05:58:51 PM »

I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

I'm with you.

Okay, here are some pictures of the Theophany complete with fat biki clad women and good looking ones too. It is not X-rated, but close to it, so beware. And all this happens with clergy present? Those polar bears!

http://russkij-sever.livejournal.com/1808038.html


p.s. I would certainly not participate in jumping into that ice hole, especially with a biki.

My, I hope those women don't stumble with all those men running around in their briefs and bare chests! Smiley

Right! A lot of manly men to see. (Though I'm surprised Putin isn't in one of the photos!)  Everyone seems to be enjoying him/herself, unlike the picture of the Mennonite women.  
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« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2014, 06:04:44 PM »

I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.

Ponchos? Not modest enough. Burqas for everyone, male and female. Can't let a good-looking face be a source of temptation now, can we?  Tongue

But heck, some dudes have wonderful eyes! That can be enough to raise this gal's temperature! Tongue
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« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2014, 06:06:16 PM »

I can sympathize with the women on this thread.  I have been treated as a sexual object my entire life by women and men alike.  I am just so goshdarn sexy that women swoon and men stare on in jealousy.  I am followed day and night by women who want to stroke my muscles and have even been hit on by President Obama (ew!).  One time I merely mentioned that I wanted to go to the gun show and three women (I think one might have been a ladyboy...he/she/it had that look about him/her/it) ran up and tore my shirt off.  One of them was an octogenarian and died of a heart attack.  The paramedics tried to revive her but then saw my glistening abs and couldn't help but oggle them.  How would you like that on your conscience?  Not only did I cause my brothers, sisters, and that lady boy to stumble, but it even ended up costing one of them their life?  One time I was at the club dancing to some wikked dubstep and a couple who had just gotten married promptly filed for divorce so they could both pursue my affections.  I have tried dressing more modestly but my muscles and gender-designating features are so large they tear through normal fabric so I have had to switch over to wearing full chain mail at church just to get the women folk not to notice me...but now they all ask if I will be their knight in shining armour?

Seriously, what am I to do?  I really wish these people would overcome their temptations and just let me live my life.

Siggy gold!

Sorry, Mor. You've been replaced.  Cheesy
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« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2014, 06:07:33 PM »

I can sympathize with the women on this thread.  I have been treated as a sexual object my entire life by women and men alike.  I am just so goshdarn sexy that women swoon and men stare on in jealousy.  I am followed day and night by women who want to stroke my muscles and have even been hit on by President Obama (ew!).  One time I merely mentioned that I wanted to go to the gun show and three women (I think one might have been a ladyboy...he/she/it had that look about him/her/it) ran up and tore my shirt off.  One of them was an octogenarian and died of a heart attack.  The paramedics tried to revive her but then saw my glistening abs and couldn't help but oggle them.  How would you like that on your conscience?  Not only did I cause my brothers, sisters, and that lady boy to stumble, but it even ended up costing one of them their life?  One time I was at the club dancing to some wikked dubstep and a couple who had just gotten married promptly filed for divorce so they could both pursue my affections.  I have tried dressing more modestly but my muscles and gender-designating features are so large they tear through normal fabric so I have had to switch over to wearing full chain mail at church just to get the women folk not to notice me...but now they all ask if I will be their knight in shining armour?

Seriously, what am I to do?  I really wish these people would overcome their temptations and just let me live my life.


Have you tried a burqa?
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« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2014, 06:11:49 PM »

LOL! Take it from someone that has been in a Mennonite community EXACTLY like the ones you posted a picture of (EPMC...it's a particular denomination of Mennonites...one I am VERY familiar with and not looked highly upon, even by other Mennonites). They LOVE fashion! They compete amoungst themselves with their own particular kind of fashion. They rip each other apart over who has too many gathers in their sleeves or kapps and who has few to none. The great debate is skirt length...should it be mid calf or so many inches from the floor? Calf length is high for a tall woman and so many inches from the floor is high for a short woman. Oh, don't forget the hussy that wears a print that is bigger than a quarter and please degrade the person that wears no print as being legalistic.

Sorry, but you are picking apart all the other pictures as much as those Mennonite women pick each other apart.

And I find a major problem with blaming girls for your own failings. You can find someone attractive without stumbling. Any stumbling is your problem. Should Men and Women both dress modestly? Sure. Should either blame the other for any personal stumblings over a person's attire? No. Otherwise, one should lock oneself up.

Exactly my feelings. Granted that a short skirt or a decollete catches my eye, in church as well as anywhere else, I have nobody to blame but myself. God made us so that we would be attracted to each other. He also gave us the Rules of Engagement, which are basically about what each individual should and should not do. Blaming others or things are not part of the divine ROE.
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« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2014, 06:12:25 PM »

I can sympathize with the women on this thread.  I have been treated as a sexual object my entire life by women and men alike.  I am just so goshdarn sexy that women swoon and men stare on in jealousy.  I am followed day and night by women who want to stroke my muscles and have even been hit on by President Obama (ew!).  One time I merely mentioned that I wanted to go to the gun show and three women (I think one might have been a ladyboy...he/she/it had that look about him/her/it) ran up and tore my shirt off.  One of them was an octogenarian and died of a heart attack.  The paramedics tried to revive her but then saw my glistening abs and couldn't help but oggle them.  How would you like that on your conscience?  Not only did I cause my brothers, sisters, and that lady boy to stumble, but it even ended up costing one of them their life?  One time I was at the club dancing to some wikked dubstep and a couple who had just gotten married promptly filed for divorce so they could both pursue my affections.  I have tried dressing more modestly but my muscles and gender-designating features are so large they tear through normal fabric so I have had to switch over to wearing full chain mail at church just to get the women folk not to notice me...but now they all ask if I will be their knight in shining armour?

Seriously, what am I to do?  I really wish these people would overcome their temptations and just let me live my life.

 laugh Thanks for the laugh, vamrat!
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« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2014, 06:13:12 PM »

I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.

Ponchos? Not modest enough. Burqas for everyone, male and female. Can't let a good-looking face be a source of temptation now, can we?  Tongue

But heck, some dudes have wonderful eyes! That can be enough to raise this gal's temperature! Tongue

Very true! My husband's eyes...love them! The rest of him could be hidden from view and those eyes would still have me.
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« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2014, 06:13:48 PM »

Ridiculous thread. When St. Paul tells women to cover their heads he does not tell them it is because they may cause men to sin. We should all dress modestly, but this is not the basis of head coverings. St. Paul states that it is because of the angels, and the fact that woman was formed from man, for man, and is the glory of man. A woman's head covering is a "symbol of authority."
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« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2014, 06:15:22 PM »

I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.

Ponchos? Not modest enough. Burqas for everyone, male and female. Can't let a good-looking face be a source of temptation now, can we?  Tongue

But heck, some dudes have wonderful eyes! That can be enough to raise this gal's temperature! Tongue

Omar Sharif, in flowing black Bedouin attire, in Lawrence of Arabia has certainly raised many a gal's temperature the world over in the past 50 years.
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« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2014, 06:15:42 PM »

I can sympathize with the women on this thread.  I have been treated as a sexual object my entire life by women and men alike.  I am just so goshdarn sexy that women swoon and men stare on in jealousy.  I am followed day and night by women who want to stroke my muscles and have even been hit on by President Obama (ew!).  One time I merely mentioned that I wanted to go to the gun show and three women (I think one might have been a ladyboy...he/she/it had that look about him/her/it) ran up and tore my shirt off.  One of them was an octogenarian and died of a heart attack.  The paramedics tried to revive her but then saw my glistening abs and couldn't help but oggle them.  How would you like that on your conscience?  Not only did I cause my brothers, sisters, and that lady boy to stumble, but it even ended up costing one of them their life?  One time I was at the club dancing to some wikked dubstep and a couple who had just gotten married promptly filed for divorce so they could both pursue my affections.  I have tried dressing more modestly but my muscles and gender-designating features are so large they tear through normal fabric so I have had to switch over to wearing full chain mail at church just to get the women folk not to notice me...but now they all ask if I will be their knight in shining armour?

Seriously, what am I to do?  I really wish these people would overcome their temptations and just let me live my life.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy  This little story is so funny....

I have only had one episode in real life at church when I had to tell a sixty-something year old man to back off. But this guy had bothered other women before so it was a problem he had. What I said was something to the effect of if he ever came within my space bubble again, I would verbally embarrass him in front of whoever was around. Worked like a charm. He gives me wide berth now and avoids eye contact too. LOL!
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« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2014, 06:18:49 PM »

I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.

Ponchos? Not modest enough. Burqas for everyone, male and female. Can't let a good-looking face be a source of temptation now, can we?  Tongue

But heck, some dudes have wonderful eyes! That can be enough to raise this gal's temperature! Tongue

Omar Sharif, in flowing black Bedouin attire, in Lawrence of Arabia has certainly raised many a gal's temperature the world over on the past 50 years.

 laugh I hear you, sister!
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« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2014, 06:20:13 PM »

I can sympathize with the women on this thread.  I have been treated as a sexual object my entire life by women and men alike.  I am just so goshdarn sexy that women swoon and men stare on in jealousy.  I am followed day and night by women who want to stroke my muscles and have even been hit on by President Obama (ew!).  One time I merely mentioned that I wanted to go to the gun show and three women (I think one might have been a ladyboy...he/she/it had that look about him/her/it) ran up and tore my shirt off.  One of them was an octogenarian and died of a heart attack.  The paramedics tried to revive her but then saw my glistening abs and couldn't help but oggle them.  How would you like that on your conscience?  Not only did I cause my brothers, sisters, and that lady boy to stumble, but it even ended up costing one of them their life?  One time I was at the club dancing to some wikked dubstep and a couple who had just gotten married promptly filed for divorce so they could both pursue my affections.  I have tried dressing more modestly but my muscles and gender-designating features are so large they tear through normal fabric so I have had to switch over to wearing full chain mail at church just to get the women folk not to notice me...but now they all ask if I will be their knight in shining armour?

Seriously, what am I to do?  I really wish these people would overcome their temptations and just let me live my life.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy  This little story is so funny....

I have only had one episode in real life at church when I had to tell a sixty-something year old man to back off. But this guy had bothered other women before so it was a problem he had. What I said was something to the effect of if he ever came within my space bubble again, I would verbally embarrass him in front of whoever was around. Worked like a charm. He gives me wide berth now and avoids eye contact too. LOL!

Mayhap, he got the whole "symbol of authority" confused and saw himself as "the authority". Tongue
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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2014, 06:41:56 PM »

This topic is reflective of the big turn off factor that makes many modern folks run for the hills. All it takes is one busy body being overly concerned about others and not enough about themselves. As for me, I'm happy to post pictures of American kids actively engrossed in the Orthodox faith, being respectful, devout and engaged with God and His Church. Here are a few:

Antiochian Village 2013 OCF College Conference East






Holy Trinity Preschool and Academy, Warren, Ohio



Diocesan  Youth Fall Encounter, Camp Nazareth, Mercer, PA 2013


Youth at Camp Nazareth Liturgy, Summer 2013




and my favorite, Bishop Gregory at Wrigley Field last summer in Chicago...


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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2014, 06:47:29 PM »

Kids are having sex at church camps. At least that's what a Serbian friend was saying they were doing.
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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2014, 06:54:51 PM »

Kids are having sex at church camps. At least that's what a Serbian friend was saying they were doing.

Was that comment really necessary? Honestly to what purpose?

Yes, over the course of the thirty five years of our camp, and I am sure at Antiochian Village as well, kids have been caught behaving inappropriately and have been sent home. Not many, but a few. So what? This proves exactly what I might ask?
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