Author Topic: Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy  (Read 8887 times)

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Offline Orthodoc

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Re: Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2005, 06:57:12 PM »
[My question is, if some EC reject things like Papal Infallibility and the IC, is their theology truly that of the Catholic Church? ]

If you mean by the Catholic Church those under papal authority my opinion is a strong NO! To me it's the same as saying - 'I am in communion with, and under the authority of, a Bishop or Bishops who uphold and proclaim doctrines or dogmas that I neither accept or believe in. That is the same as saying 'I am knowingly under the authority of a Bishop I recognize as teaching and preaching false doctrines. Why would I want to be under their authority?

To relegate such things as papal infallibility, Filioque, Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, etc to 'theologomenia' is ridiculous. Either we believe it or we don't. If we think doctines and dogmas are nothing more than personal opinions than why not all become Protestants?

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Offline Elisha

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Re: Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2005, 07:11:26 PM »
To relegate such things as papal infallibility, Filioque, Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, etc to 'theologomenia' is ridiculous.  Either we believe it or we don't.  If we think doctines and dogmas are nothing more than personal opinions than why not all become Protestants?

Orthodoc

drewmeister,
Just to be clear, Theologumena (or however it is spelled) means theological opinion - not Dogma.  For example, the Orthodox Church believes in the Bodily Assumption of Mary, but it is not required Dogma like in the RCC.

Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2005, 07:12:31 PM »
oh, ok, thank you! 
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Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2005, 07:29:36 PM »
So, basically, another way to look at the situation between RC and EC is this: RC and EC are both different and separate jurisdictions of the Catholic Church.  While the EC's arent expected to follow the RC teachings of theology, the RC's aren't expected to follow the EC's theologies either.  But either way, both ways of theology are acceptable in the Catholic Church, thus making both equally Catholic.

Does that sound like a good way to view it?  Thanks. 
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Offline Hesychios

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Re: Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2005, 08:11:41 PM »
So, basically, another way to look at the situation between RC and EC is this: RC and EC are both different and separate jurisdictions of the Catholic Church.  While the EC's arent expected to follow the RC teachings of theology, the RC's aren't expected to follow the EC's theologies either.  But either way, both ways of theology are acceptable in the Catholic Church, thus making both equally Catholic.

Does that sound like a good way to view it?  Thanks. 

That is the supposed rationalization.

The reality is that the more numerous RC's (generally laypeople) are not satisfied with this idea and browbeat the EC's continually. In my opinion they properly might have all split off from Rome by 1871 and finished with the abuse.

Likewise many Orthodox will not accept the RC theology under any circumstances and ridicule the EC's for what seems to them to be a type of religious relativism.

If you feel like a victim soul or desire a long slow martyrdom, try becoming an Eastern Catholic.

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Offline Orthodoc

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Re: Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2005, 10:10:53 PM »
[While the EC's arent expected to follow the RC teachings of theology, the RC's aren't expected to follow the EC's theologies either.  But either way, both ways of theology are acceptable in the Catholic Church, thus making both equally Catholic. ]

Kind of makes a mockery of the following Scriptural passage, doesn't it?  -

[Caps are mine]


I Corinthians 1:10 -  Now I plead with you brethern, by the name of Our Lord jesus Christ,  THAT YOU ALL SPEAK THE SAME THING, that there be no divisions among you, BUT YOU BE PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER IN THE SAME MIND AND IN THE SAME JUDGEMENT.

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Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
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Offline Jennifer

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Re: Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2005, 11:31:16 PM »

The reality is that the more numerous RC's (generally laypeople) are not satisfied with this idea and browbeat the EC's continually. In my opinion they properly might have all split off from Rome by 1871 and finished with the abuse.


If I had a dollar for all of the idiotic things I've seen written by Catholic laypeople online about the eastern rites, I'd be rich (well maybe not rich but you get the idea!). 

First, the average RC has never even heard of the Eastern Catholic Churches.  I remember someone asking if Eastern Catholics were Catholics who lived on the east coast. 

Second, there is a feeling of superiority amongst most RCs that their rite/praxis/devotions, etc. are superior.  When pressed, they'll condescend towards the eastern rites but they're always insisting that their rite/praxis/devotions better capture the faith.  If you ask them about that point blank they'll usually deny they are RC triumphantists but what other conclusion can be made from their assertions that ECs would benefit from devotions like the Sacred Heart. 

I've seen posts from Roman Catholics insisting that the eastern way of allowing infants to receive communion isn't "reverent."  The same person absolutely refused to give the ECs enough credit by referring to them as Eastern Catholics instead of Eastern Rite Roman Catholics. 


Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2005, 02:06:54 PM »
Ive been doing some reading on EWTN and other places, and it appears that the official teaching of EC is that they are to accept the Papal Infallibility.  I found also, though, that some EC's, like has been said before, reject it, but still feel that Catholicism is the true Church (otherwise they would have converted to Orthodoxy).  I find also that even some faithful RC's (ie not ones looking into conversion to Orthodoxy) reject Infallibility, but are still Catholic, and believe it to be the true Church.

I guess what my point is is that I need to base what Church Im in not by what individuals believe (because Im sure there are Orthodox who disbelieve certain teachings of their own church), but rather by what each church teaches. 

Does anyone agree with that?  Thanks for your opinions. 
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re: Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2005, 03:05:52 PM »
[I guess what my point is is that I need to base what Church Im in not by what individuals believe (because Im sure there are Orthodox who disbelieve certain teachings of their own church), but rather by what each church teaches. 

Does anyone agree with that?  Thanks for your opinions. ]

Exactly!  You have to judge it by the teachings of the specific Church.  You have to define for yourself what is meant by one's faith.  Which, to me are defined the doctrines and dogmas that church accepts as valid and necessary to proclaim the faith and salvation. 

It always amazes me when papal Catholics come in here and chide us about what they preceive as disunity within Orthodoxy.  Yet when we get into discussions regarding doctrine and dogma there is always much more uniformity within Orthodoxy than the papal church.  Especially when you include those within the 'eastern rites' under Romes authority.

You get the impression that what they believe is secondary to being under papal authority.

Orthodoc
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Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2005, 08:22:52 PM »
Thanks for all your help, Orthodoc!

Im curious though, because I found that there are some EC priests that reject Papal Infallibility because they say it didnt exist in the first millenium. Go here: http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...nu=1&groupnum=0

Mr. Dragini also says that some RC's dont even accept Papal Infallibility. So for the EC's who reject it, why dont they become Orthodox? Or do they, even though they may reject infallibility, still see Catholicism as the True Church?

Any thoughts? 
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re: Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2005, 08:44:32 AM »
[So for the EC's who reject it, why dont they become Orthodox? Or do they, even though they may reject infallibility, still see Catholicism as the True Church?]

I have been trying to figure out questions like that for most of my 64 years and have yet to come up with an answer.  But then the Unia never made any sense to me to begin with.  It's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Some of them think that in spite of everything one's Christianity cannot be complete if one isn't 'in communion with' hence (under the authority of) the Pope.  However, these same people will get highly insulted if you try and remind them of this papal allegiance by calling them 'Roman' or 'papal'.  They consider it the greatest of insults.  Go figure!

As has been brought out here and elsewhere, some of them think they are already Orthodox.  But, to me, they are identifying themselves by their traditions and worship rather than their beliefs.  We orthodox identify ourselves by the very doctrines we have proclaimed, protected, and upheld UNCHANGED since the church was still basically united and of 'one mind' as mentioned in Scripture.  We are proud of the fact that we have not added to those doctrines (as the RC's have),  subtracted from those doctrines (as the Protestants have), or modified those doctrines (as both the RC's & Protestants have).  And, that's what makes us Orthodox.  Not our traditions and worship.  It just goes to show how far from Orthodoxy they have wandered in the 400+ years under papal authority.  They have lost the basic essence of what it means to be Orthodox.  Yet they go around proclaiming they are 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome'!

The Unia was never created to survive.  In those lands where it  developed through force and deception, it was created with the idea that with each generation they would become more latinized until they would eventually evolve into full fledged Roman Catholics.  The RCC knew the people had a strong Orthodox identity (many of them still do) and would never willingly or knowingly renounce Orthodoxy.  In 1596 people were still basically illerate.  They could neither read nor write.  So they based everything on what they saw or heard.  As long as everything looked the same and sounded the same they would never really comprehend what had taken place.  Then the gradual Latinization could begin ever so gently. 

When the union was signed the very next Sunday your average peasant went to Liturgy.  The Liturgy was exactly the same and the local Bishop was still commemorated.  The word 'Orthodox' was still mentioned in the Liturgy.  So the people had no way to know anything had changed.  The only place where the Popes name was mentioned was in the Cathedral.  People who questioned it were told the Pope had become Orthodox!

This was OK while the Unia remained localized within certain areas.  But history had other ideas and people began to immigrate to other area's for a variety of reasons.  So the deception became that much harder to maintain.  Hence, we have the rush to latinize here in the U.S.

I think that of all the replies I have read so far, (Post 27)  best explains their mentality.  They seem to be divided into three main groups...pro Orthodox, anti Orthodox, and pro Latinization.

Not to confuse you more but have you ever read the 'Melkite Initiative' that came out in 1995? 

 This initiative was the profession of faith made by the Melkite Greek Catholic Archbishop Elias Zogby:

"They offer special thanks to Archbishop EliasZoghby whose 1995 Profession of Faith was the major force for reopening dialogue with the Orthodox brothers. Zoghby, the former archbishop of Baalbek and a long-time leader among the Melkite bishops, offered this brief statement in 1995 and it was subscribed to by 24 of the 26 bishops present at the 1995 Holy Synod:

1. I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches.
2. I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation."

Based on this statement they wanted to establish communion with both Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism at the same time.  Needless to say, it was rejected by both.

One would also have to wonder why they wouldn't want to return to Orthodoxy when their profession of faith was Orthodox rather than Roman Catholic!

Orthodoc

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.