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Author Topic: Baptism for all hominids? What if Neanderthal man is brought back to life?  (Read 958 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2014, 04:56:02 PM »

They'd certainly dominate professional sports and strength-building exercises in particular, that's for sure.
They were short.   Basketball's definitely a non-starter.

Not if you lower the net, like this:

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« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2014, 05:03:35 PM »

People without faith tend to view religious belief as absurd.

Do we really need to reinforce their preconceptions by entertaining a supposedly serious  discussion about a hypothetical absurdity?
There was a time when in the Orthodox Liturgy we prayed for those traveling by land and sea.  To consider other options was a hypothetical absurdity.  Some time later, of course, we began praying for those traveling by land, sea, and air.  Today, we pray for those traveling by land, sea, air, and space.

Failing to ask if our faith generalizes reinforces much stronger preconceptions.

Quote from: podkarpatska
If memory serves me right, stuff like this usually was usually discussed best late at night in a hazy college dorm when one was about nineteen years old.
If memory serves me right, while you and I were having freshman-level philosophy discussions in our hazy dorm room, some bright grad student was working on a genetics application that might one day surprise the entire world.

The question in the OP is 100% valid.  If the disdain it's received in much of the thread is representative of the view of the Church, then we likely deserve whatever scorn comes our way.
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« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2014, 05:08:22 PM »



That seems like any discussion on Catholic-Orthodox board or on Politics.

Brilliantly ambivalent.

 laugh


If I were attempting to swallow anything  while reading your retort, it would have shot out of my nose and all over my keyboard.
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« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2014, 05:44:26 PM »

I have a similar question.

What about the undead?  Shocked

The undead are burned by Holy Water and the Eucharist, initiation into the Church would be problematic.
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« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2014, 05:50:43 PM »

People without faith tend to view religious belief as absurd.

Do we really need to reinforce their preconceptions by entertaining a supposedly serious  discussion about a hypothetical absurdity?
There was a time when in the Orthodox Liturgy we prayed for those traveling by land and sea.  To consider other options was a hypothetical absurdity.  Some time later, of course, we began praying for those traveling by land, sea, and air.  Today, we pray for those traveling by land, sea, air, and space.

Failing to ask if our faith generalizes reinforces much stronger preconceptions.



Space, eh? Haven't heard that yet. However I will get nervous if we add "transporter" or "warp-drive".  Cheesy
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« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2014, 06:37:13 PM »

Space, eh? Haven't heard that yet. However I will get nervous if we add "transporter" or "warp-drive".  Cheesy

I've heard it...I don't know which jurisdictions, if any, have added it to their liturgical books, but it's at least a somewhat popular ad lib.  Similarly, I've heard some priests add, during the Lity (after the petition against "invasion of enemies" and "civil war"), "terrorism", "Islamoterrorism", "manmade environmental disasters", "abortion", and "economic collapse".
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« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2014, 06:40:20 PM »

Space, eh? Haven't heard that yet. However I will get nervous if we add "transporter" or "warp-drive".  Cheesy

I've heard it...I don't know which jurisdictions, if any, have added it to their liturgical books, but it's at least a somewhat popular ad lib.  Similarly, I've heard some priests add, during the Lity (after the petition against "invasion of enemies" and "civil war"), "terrorism", "Islamoterrorism", "manmade environmental disasters", "abortion", and "economic collapse".

I am only replying so we might have the same post count (maybe) for a second
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« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2014, 06:52:16 PM »

I am only replying so we might have the same post count (maybe) for a second

This has the potential to be a fun game if you want to keep playing...  Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2014, 07:28:26 PM »

Space, eh? Haven't heard that yet. However I will get nervous if we add "transporter" or "warp-drive".  Cheesy

I've heard it...I don't know which jurisdictions, if any, have added it to their liturgical books, but it's at least a somewhat popular ad lib.  Similarly, I've heard some priests add, during the Lity (after the petition against "invasion of enemies" and "civil war"), "terrorism", "Islamoterrorism", "manmade environmental disasters", "abortion", and "economic collapse".

I have heard it said in the OCA, but do not know if it is universally used in the OCA or if it is just a parish or diocesan thing.
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« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2014, 07:29:27 PM »

I am only replying so we might have the same post count (maybe) for a second

This has the potential to be a fun game if you want to keep playing...  Smiley

I have about 4,000 posts to make up if I want to be even with you.
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« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2014, 10:26:17 PM »

I have about 4,000 posts to make up if I want to be even with you.

You really don't want to be such a loser.  Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2014, 10:39:32 PM »

I have about 4,000 posts to make up if I want to be even with you.

You really don't want to be such a loser.  Smiley

Heard that.  Grin
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« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2014, 10:52:40 PM »

I have about 4,000 posts to make up if I want to be even with you.

You really don't want to be such a loser.  Smiley

I was kidding regarding posting levels. Mine at 5000+ is too much. I am hoping the other member was just joking too. I think he was, but guys tend to be very competitive sometimes over the smallest things.

Back on topic, if scientists were to clone a Neanderthal using a borrowed modern human egg containing maternal mitochondrial DNA, subtracting the human DNA from the nucleus, and then adding nuclear DNA from a Neanderthal man, then that cloned entity would not be truly a Neanderthal man because the maternal mitochondrial DNA would be from a modern human. Neanderthals had different maternal mitochondrial DNA, which means that their energy levels might have been different from that of modern man. Besides the mitochondrial DNA, what other organelles inside the human cell might be different from that of Neanderthals? Would this add to their quality of life or subtract from it? Ethically, it would be a can of worms to conduct such an experiment. And no doubt, with scientists involved, religion prpbably would not factor into the equation and these Neanderthals might be treated more like chimps than humans, and more like property or slaves than humans.

I wonder what the Neanderthals were like personality wise? Were they as competitive as we humans are? Or were they more competitive and territorial? With their temperaments could they even be Christians? This is a serious statement. I used to have a book written by a Roman Catholic priest which discussed the catechumenate. He said that the Roman Catholic Church has for centuries tried to convert gypsies, but has had very little success due to their cultural values or lack of moral values.

Could temperament be a hindrance to Christian baptism? Is that why from the time of Adam until Christ was born there were many generations of men so that man under the guidance of the Holy Spirit might be made more receptive to Christianity?


EDIT: 7:34 PM PST
The Roman Catholic priest said most gypsies who seek to become Christians have been placed in a permanent catechumenate never quite making it to Holy Baptism.
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« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2014, 10:55:52 PM »

You wonder what Neanderthals were like personality-wise?

Surely you've visited our Private Forums before...
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« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2014, 10:58:06 PM »

You wonder what Neanderthals were like personality-wise?

Surely you've visited our Private Forums before...

If S... is any example, I shutter....
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« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2014, 11:03:38 PM »

So, is Humanzee biologically possible? We have animals that are genetically farther apart than we are from chimps and they are capable of producing offspring.

And if humanzee is possible, would it be able to receive Baptism and the Eucharist since it is half human?
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« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2014, 11:04:11 PM »

You wonder what Neanderthals were like personality-wise?

Surely you've visited our Private Forums before...

If S... is any example, I shutter....

Chuckle, I don't know about him but I can readily admit to my own 3-4% Neanderthal DNA.  Cheesy
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« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2014, 11:05:47 PM »

So, is Humanzee biologically possible? We have animals that are genetically farther apart than we are from chimps and they are capable of producing offspring.

And if humanzee is possible, would it be able to receive Baptism and the Eucharist since it is half human?

Who knows. I surely hope you did not think those musings of yours there a logical outcome of any of my posts.
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« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2014, 11:29:04 PM »

Back on topic, if scientists were to clone a Neanderthal using a borrowed modern human egg containing maternal mitochondrial DNA, subtracting the human DNA from the nucleus, and then adding nuclear DNA from a Neanderthal man, then that cloned entity would not be truly a Neanderthal man because the maternal mitochondrial DNA would be from a modern human. Neanderthals had different maternal mitochondrial DNA, which means that their energy levels might have been different from that of modern man. Besides the mitochondrial DNA, what other organelles inside the human cell might be different from that of Neanderthals? Would this add to their quality of life or subtract from it? Ethically, it would be a can of worms to conduct such an experiment. And no doubt, with scientists involved, religion prpbably would not factor into the equation and these Neanderthals might be treated more like chimps than humans, and more like property or slaves than humans.

I wonder what the Neanderthals were like personality wise? Were they as competitive as we humans are? Or were they more competitive and territorial?

I'll defer to science on these matters. 

Quote
With their temperaments could they even be Christians? This is a serious statement. I used to have a book written by a Roman Catholic priest which discussed the catechumenate. He said that the Roman Catholic Church has for centuries tried to convert gypsies, but has had very little success due to their cultural values or lack of moral values.

Could temperament be a hindrance to Christian baptism?

I suspect the RC's have had very little success with gypsies not because they naturally present impediments to conversion, but because they are in some way resistant to accepting it.  In other words, it's not that gypsies are, by their very human constitution, incapable of becoming Christians, but perhaps their culture and way of life are so entrenched that they are unable to conceive of accepting the gospel.  And it might not even be that at all: it's not like the Christians the gypsies are regularly encountering are stellar exemplars of the gospel.  If they are OK with their lives, and some "Christian" shows up telling them how they should convert, and that Christian is more or less lousy, that could also prevent them (it prevented Gandhi, after all).  As with science, I'm no expert on gypsies, so I'm just throwing out a couple of suggestions. 

I don't know what you mean by "temperament" in order to say whether or not it could be a hindrance to baptism.  If your temperament is "hostility to Christianity", then I suppose it would be an impediment.  If, however, it is "Do I really have to get baptised wearing only shorts in a kiddie pool in front of all those people?", I suppose that is a different matter. 

Quote
Is that why from the time of Adam until Christ was born there were many generations of men so that man under the guidance of the Holy Spirit might be made more receptive to Christianity?

I suppose you could put it that way.  St Paul speaks of how Christ was born of a woman and born under the law "in the fullness of time".  There is a line of thought, either in the liturgical texts or in some patristic writings (perhaps both, and I apologise that I don't have citations handy), that the progression of generations was to allow mankind to produce the Virgin Mary so that she could become the Mother of God.  In the process, one can observe in the various world religions, literature, cultures, etc. elements that, on their own, may not look like much, but in light of Christ we see how they were pointers or indicators the meaning of which would become clear once the gospel was preached to them, enabling the nations to accept it more easily (St Justin speaks of something like this). 

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« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2014, 11:36:23 PM »

If human infants, who can't (apparently) produce complex thoughts, then there would seem to be no (inherent) obstacle to baptizing non-humans who might have more complex thoughts than human infants.
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« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2014, 12:14:11 AM »

If human infants, who can't (apparently) produce complex thoughts, then there would seem to be no (inherent) obstacle to baptizing non-humans who might have more complex thoughts than human infants.

Human infants can produce complex thoughts. Since babies cannot speak, researchers can determine their preferences by studying a baby's eye contact. According to some behavioral scientists, infants as young as three months can show by their eye gazes that they want people who disagree with them to be punished. This was discussed on the November 18, 2012 60-minutes program.

It has been shown in many different early childhood studies that babies show preference for an object when they gaze longer at these objects. When they quickly avert their gaze, that action can indicate disfavor.

60-Minutes presented psychological studies from a major university baby-lab where researchers offer babies a choice between Cherrios (TM) and Graham Crackers. Lots of babies seem to prefer Cherrios, so when these babies are given a choice between a Cherrios-loving orange-striped cat puppet or the Graham Cracker-loving grey-striped cat puppet, 80 percent of the time, the babies picked the Cherrios-loving orange-striped cat puppet by giving a preferential gaze directed at that orange tabby puppet.

Next, the Cherrios-loving babies viewed a puppet show where a grey puppet wearing a blue T-shirt is favored by about 80 percent of those babies when that grey puppet sporting a blue T-shirt prevents the Graham-loving grey-striped puppet from getting a ball. A grey puppet wearing an orange T-shirt who helps the Graham-loving puppet is not favored by them. (A friend of my enemy is also my enemy.)
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« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2014, 12:42:34 AM »

Human infants can produce complex thoughts. Since babies cannot speak, researchers can determine their preferences by studying a baby's eye contact. According to some behavioral scientists, infants as young as three months can show by their eye gazes that they want people who disagree with them to be punished. This was discussed on the November 18, 2012 60-minutes program.

That reminded me of this:

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« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2014, 12:45:14 AM »

Human infants can produce complex thoughts. Since babies cannot speak, researchers can determine their preferences by studying a baby's eye contact. According to some behavioral scientists, infants as young as three months can show by their eye gazes that they want people who disagree with them to be punished. This was discussed on the November 18, 2012 60-minutes program.

That reminded me of this:



Middle class white kids are terrifying when rendered in black and white.
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« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2014, 12:47:06 AM »

Middle class white kids are terrifying when rendered in black and white.

Fixed it for you. 
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« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2014, 12:55:23 AM »

Human infants can produce complex thoughts. Since babies cannot speak, researchers can determine their preferences by studying a baby's eye contact. According to some behavioral scientists, infants as young as three months can show by their eye gazes that they want people who disagree with them to be punished. This was discussed on the November 18, 2012 60-minutes program.

That reminded me of this:



Exactly, have you ever noticed how a child (or adult) who is upset with you either will stare angrily at you or more likely not look at you at all and try to ignore you and your pleas.


« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 12:56:00 AM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2014, 01:02:28 AM »

Exactly, have you ever noticed how a child (or adult) who is upset with you either will stare angrily at you or more likely not look at you at all and try to ignore you and your pleas.

I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but the people in my life are typically more wild than that.  If ^that's all I had to deal with, I'd sit back and relax.  Tongue
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« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2014, 01:04:50 AM »

So, is Humanzee biologically possible? We have animals that are genetically farther apart than we are from chimps and they are capable of producing offspring.

And if humanzee is possible, would it be able to receive Baptism and the Eucharist since it is half human?

There was a doctor who tried this on some private island.  I think his name was Moreaux, or something like that.
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« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2014, 01:05:54 AM »

You wonder what Neanderthals were like personality-wise?

Surely you've visited our Private Forums before...

Neanderthals likely had larger brains than modern humans.  We might get some better discussions if we had a few more of them around.  A bit less duck dynasty debates, you know what I mean?
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« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2014, 01:08:21 AM »

You wonder what Neanderthals were like personality-wise?

Surely you've visited our Private Forums before...

Neanderthals likely had larger brains than modern humans.  We might get some better discussions if we had a few more of them around.  A bit less duck dynasty debates, you know what I mean?

10-4
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« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2014, 01:15:35 AM »

You wonder what Neanderthals were like personality-wise?

Surely you've visited our Private Forums before...

Neanderthals likely had larger brains than modern humans.  We might get some better discussions if we had a few more of them around.  A bit less duck dynasty debates, you know what I mean?

10-4

LOL!

If that were the total of pages in that I thread I still couldn't believe it could go on that long. But alas it is larger by a factor of 4.
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« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2014, 02:13:13 AM »

Exactly, have you ever noticed how a child (or adult) who is upset with you either will stare angrily at you or more likely not look at you at all and try to ignore you and your pleas.

I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but the people in my life are typically more wild than that.  If ^that's all I had to deal with, I'd sit back and relax.  Tongue

Not so easy.

When people go silent and give you a nasty stare, those are the ones I wish I could avoid as they are the passive-aggressive ones. They tend to boil inside quietly, gossip silently with others, until they explode with venom, and then all their friends explode at you all at once. It is not a good scene.  Once you see them go silent, all you can do is to apologize for unknowingly offending them, and then pray that they will come to their senses. However, they will even ignore an apology as they seem to take offense at the slightest word. Worse is dealing with superstitious Greeks.
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« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2014, 05:38:01 AM »

You wonder what Neanderthals were like personality-wise?

Surely you've visited our Private Forums before...

Neanderthals likely had larger brains than modern humans.  We might get some better discussions if we had a few more of them around.  A bit less duck dynasty debates, you know what I mean?

They were also bulkier and larger than we are in some ways, however, so the brain size itself might not matter as much as its proportion to their body size does. That being said, Neanderthal intelligence probably would have been roughly equal to us, maybe a bit less, since they died out and their technology was slightly less advanced than other hominid groups around the time.

Imagine a Neanderthal posting on this site. Instead of the dumb European ethnic group squabbles over tiny pieces of land, we'd see inter-species squabbles over caves and prehistoric regions. Maybe we'd have a Neanderthal Isa always posting maps everywhere.
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« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2014, 10:29:29 AM »

You wonder what Neanderthals were like personality-wise?

Surely you've visited our Private Forums before...

Neanderthals likely had larger brains than modern humans.  We might get some better discussions if we had a few more of them around.  A bit less duck dynasty debates, you know what I mean?

They were also bulkier and larger than we are in some ways, however, so the brain size itself might not matter as much as its proportion to their body size does. That being said, Neanderthal intelligence probably would have been roughly equal to us, maybe a bit less, since they died out and their technology was slightly less advanced than other hominid groups around the time.

Imagine a Neanderthal posting on this site. Instead of the dumb European ethnic group squabbles over tiny pieces of land, we'd see inter-species squabbles over caves and prehistoric regions. Maybe we'd have a Neanderthal Isa always posting maps everywhere.

Keep in mind that "around the time" is a period of several thousand years.  Imagine an archaeologist from the year 20,594 AD comparing Aztec Jaguar Warriors to German Panzergrenadiers (only a 500 year difference).  They would have to assume that the ancient American cultures were inferior to the German cultures from around the same time due to the fact that the Aztecs were armed with stone and wood weapons wearing animal skins and the Germans operated aircraft, submarines, tanks, and had machineguns. 

A lot of the debate regarding modern human vs neanderthal tool making comes from the very end of the neanderthal occupation of the European continent (and the entry of modern man).  It is also widely thought that Neanderthals learned the tool techniques used by modern humans, though they did have their own techniques going back several thousand years.  We can infer from remaining neanderthal tools is that they displayed problem solving and behavioral adaptability...putting them lightyears ahead of many modern humans circa 2014 AD.
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One day we will talk about why people fetishize children, but for now I'll keep on the side of humanity that doesn't think the height of life is a drinking a juice box and eating a tater tot while defecating in their pants.
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« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2014, 08:22:01 PM »

You wonder what Neanderthals were like personality-wise?

Surely you've visited our Private Forums before...

Neanderthals likely had larger brains than modern humans.  We might get some better discussions if we had a few more of them around.  A bit less duck dynasty debates, you know what I mean?

They were also bulkier and larger than we are in some ways, however, so the brain size itself might not matter as much as its proportion to their body size does. That being said, Neanderthal intelligence probably would have been roughly equal to us, maybe a bit less, since they died out and their technology was slightly less advanced than other hominid groups around the time.

Imagine a Neanderthal posting on this site. Instead of the dumb European ethnic group squabbles over tiny pieces of land, we'd see inter-species squabbles over caves and prehistoric regions. Maybe we'd have a Neanderthal Isa always posting maps everywhere.

Keep in mind that "around the time" is a period of several thousand years.  Imagine an archaeologist from the year 20,594 AD comparing Aztec Jaguar Warriors to German Panzergrenadiers (only a 500 year difference).  They would have to assume that the ancient American cultures were inferior to the German cultures from around the same time due to the fact that the Aztecs were armed with stone and wood weapons wearing animal skins and the Germans operated aircraft, submarines, tanks, and had machineguns. 

A lot of the debate regarding modern human vs neanderthal tool making comes from the very end of the neanderthal occupation of the European continent (and the entry of modern man).  It is also widely thought that Neanderthals learned the tool techniques used by modern humans, though they did have their own techniques going back several thousand years.  We can infer from remaining neanderthal tools is that they displayed problem solving and behavioral adaptability...putting them lightyears ahead of many modern humans circa 2014 AD.

Indeed, Neanderthal man did not have the TV to dumb down and hypnotize him. They had to use their brains and their muscles in order to survive.
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« Reply #79 on: January 17, 2014, 09:48:19 PM »

You guys sure spend a lot of time worrying about so weird stuff.
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« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2014, 10:09:07 PM »

You guys sure spend a lot of time worrying about so weird stuff.

Well, if and when Neanderthal man makes his debut, we will be expecting it, and you might be the one worrying.
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« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2014, 11:42:19 PM »

You guys sure spend a lot of time worrying about some weird stuff.

Well, if and when Neanderthal man makes his debut, we will be expecting it, and you might be the one worrying.

Don't forget your tinfoil helmets.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 11:42:55 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #82 on: January 18, 2014, 12:36:00 AM »

You guys sure spend a lot of time worrying about some weird stuff.

Well, if and when Neanderthal man makes his debut, we will be expecting it, and you might be the one worrying.

Don't forget your tinfoil helmets.

Notice I said, "If and when."
Go ahead and eat your crow.
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« Reply #83 on: January 18, 2014, 02:24:12 AM »

we might as well get ready for Lucy - our common great grand-cestress from the plains of Africa, 2; or was it 3 million years ago?
No bones about it, she is a hominid...
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« Reply #84 on: January 18, 2014, 02:33:28 AM »

You guys sure spend a lot of time worrying about some weird stuff.

Well, if and when Neanderthal man makes his debut, we will be expecting it, and you might be the one worrying.

Don't forget your tinfoil helmets.


Notice I said, "If and when."
Go ahead and eat your crow.

Um, okay.   Huh Undecided
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« Reply #85 on: January 18, 2014, 02:33:58 AM »

Double Post
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 02:34:19 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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