Author Topic: Baptism for all hominids? What if Neanderthal man is brought back to life?  (Read 1535 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,388
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,551
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?
It would be relatively easy. One could even simply insert into a Homo sapiens the distinctive DNA sequence found in Neanderthals (and some of these sequences still exist in living modern humans today).
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 04:43:50 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,388
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?

I cannot remember where I read this, but some crazy scientist would like to try to clone a prehistoric man.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,551
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?

I cannot remember where I read this, but some crazy scientist would like to try to clone a prehistoric man.

ROTFL!!!
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?

I cannot remember where I read this, but some crazy scientist would like to try to clone a prehistoric man.
Harvard Prof Says Neanderthal Clones Possible but Experts Doubt It
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,551
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?
It would be relatively easy. One could even simply insert into a Homo sapiens the distinctive DNA sequence found in Neanderthals (and some of these sequences still exist in living modern humans today).

Really?  (That's a serious "really?")

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?
It would be relatively easy. One could even simply insert into a Homo sapiens the distinctive DNA sequence found in Neanderthals (and some of these sequences still exist in living modern humans today).

Really?  (That's a serious "really?")


"The draft sequence of the Neanderthal genome provides more evidence that interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans may have occurred. It showed more similarities between non-African modern humans and Neanderthals than between African modern humans and Neanderthals. This difference between regions is consistent with interbreeding between Neanderthals and the ancestors of Eurasian modern humans before they branched off into regional groups. Approximately 1 to 4% of non-African modern human DNA is shared with Neanderthals."
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 04:51:01 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline IoanC

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,414
Cloning does not bring back to life, but creates a duplicate. The baptism of Kligonians and Neanderthals is first on the agenda of the next ecumenical council.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 04:52:28 PM by IoanC »

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,551
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?
It would be relatively easy. One could even simply insert into a Homo sapiens the distinctive DNA sequence found in Neanderthals (and some of these sequences still exist in living modern humans today).

Really?  (That's a serious "really?")


"The draft sequence of the Neanderthal genome provides more evidence that interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans may have occurred. It showed more similarities between non-African modern humans and Neanderthals than between African modern humans and Neanderthals. This difference between regions is consistent with interbreeding between Neanderthals and the ancestors of Eurasian modern humans before they branched off into regional groups. Approximately 1 to 4% of non-African modern human DNA is shared with Neanderthals."

Okie dokie.  Above my pay grade.

So, back to the OP....
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,388
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?

I cannot remember where I read this, but some crazy scientist would like to try to clone a prehistoric man.
Harvard Prof Says Neanderthal Clones Possible but Experts Doubt It

Thank you. That is the article I read about a year ago. I also saw the coverage live on TV.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline Yurysprudentsiya

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,632
  • God, the Great, the Only, Keep for Us Our Ukraine!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: OCA, with a love for the UOC-USA
@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?
It would be relatively easy. One could even simply insert into a Homo sapiens the distinctive DNA sequence found in Neanderthals (and some of these sequences still exist in living modern humans today).

Really?  (That's a serious "really?")


"The draft sequence of the Neanderthal genome provides more evidence that interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans may have occurred. It showed more similarities between non-African modern humans and Neanderthals than between African modern humans and Neanderthals. This difference between regions is consistent with interbreeding between Neanderthals and the ancestors of Eurasian modern humans before they branched off into regional groups. Approximately 1 to 4% of non-African modern human DNA is shared with Neanderthals."

Yes, so descendants of Neanderthals have been baptized for nearly 2000 years now.   

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,388
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
Cloning does not bring back to life, but creates a duplicate. The baptism of Kligonians and Neanderthals is first on the agenda of the next ecumenical council.

Did you forget a smilie?
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,551
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
Cloning does not bring back to life, but creates a duplicate. The baptism of Kligonians and Neanderthals is first on the agenda of the next ecumenical council.

Did you forget a smilie?

Since when does god need smileys? ;D
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Online vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,553
Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline IoanC

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,414
Cloning does not bring back to life, but creates a duplicate. The baptism of Kligonians and Neanderthals is first on the agenda of the next ecumenical council.

Did you forget a smilie?

Up to you if you think it needs a smilie.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

This sounds like you harbor crypto-rationalist RC tendencies.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,244
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
"Train up a Neanderthal in the way he should go; and when he is old, he will not depart from it."
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Online vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,553
Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

This sounds like you harbor crypto-rationalist RC tendencies.

I harbour whatever you say I harbour.
If I didn't, then why would I say I harboured it?

Just looking for some form of criteria.  
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,551
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

This sounds like you harbor crypto-rationalist RC tendencies.

I harbour whatever you say I harbour.
If I didn't, then why would I say I harboured it?

Just looking for some form of criteria.  

How ridiculously crypto-rationalist of you, Vamrat!! ;D ;D
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Partisan Pro-Chalcedonian Fanatic
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,360
  • St. John the Merciful
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
I have a similar question.

What about the undead?  :o
Not everything I type or have typed in the past is reflective of the teaching of the Orthodox Church, or may not reflect my contemporary views on a subject. (4/6/2015)

Glory to Jesus Christ!

قدوس لله قدوس القوي قدوس الذي لا يموت ارحمنا

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,388
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

Teach him to talk?

Language is innate! I have not studied Neanderthal anatomy and physiology, but If Neanderthal man has the proper equipment needed to vocalize: the correct oral apparatus with good tongue agility, the right placement of vocal folds in the pharyngeal area, and the requisite brain development, and if he is in daily contact with humans, he will learn to speak.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

This sounds like you harbor crypto-rationalist RC tendencies.

I harbour whatever you say I harbour.
If I didn't, then why would I say I harboured it?

Just looking for some form of criteria.  

Your soul is in peril. Criteria sounds a little too close to cafeteria for my tastes.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

Teach him to talk?

Language is innate! I have not studied Neanderthal anatomy and physiology, but If Neanderthal man has the proper equipment needed to vocalize: the correct oral apparatus with good tongue agility, the right placement of vocal folds in the pharyngeal area, and the requisite brain development, and if he is in daily contact with humans, he will learn to speak.

Only that which can speak can be dumb.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,244
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Language is innate! I have not studied Neanderthal anatomy and physiology, but If Neanderthal man has the proper equipment needed to vocalize: the correct oral apparatus with good tongue agility, the right placement of vocal folds in the pharyngeal area, and the requisite brain development, and if he is in daily contact with humans, he will learn to speak.

No baptism for voiceless then?

What about the undead?  :o

AFAIK, Catholics do something like that. They think 1-hour dead is not dead yet or sort of.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 05:58:28 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline rakovsky

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,566
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Studies show that a small portion of human DNA is Neanderthal. So in a way, Neanderthals are getting baptized.

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,555
  • No fate but what we make for ourselves.
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?
It would be relatively easy. One could even simply insert into a Homo sapiens the distinctive DNA sequence found in Neanderthals (and some of these sequences still exist in living modern humans today).

It may also be fair to point out though however that while it can be done, there is a very good chance that it would be a stillborn or would die minutes after birth. Even modern animals that we clone die prematurely more often than they survive. Now add to that the complications of cloning an extinct species.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,555
  • No fate but what we make for ourselves.
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

Well what if he can't?

The mentally incapacitated sometimes can't and yet the Church baptizes and communes them.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,310
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Really?  What are you all going to postulate about next, Brian the alien kid from the Excede Internet ads? 

People without faith tend to view religious belief as absurd.

Do we really need to reinforce their preconceptions by entertaining a supposedly serious  discussion about a hypothetical absurdity?  (If memory serves me right, stuff like this usually was usually discussed best late at night in a hazy college dorm when one was about nineteen years old. )

Online vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,553
Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

Well what if he can't?

The mentally incapacitated sometimes can't and yet the Church baptizes and communes them.

It seems that the crux of the matter is whether or not Neanderthals were human.  I think they are, but 'I think' is not a good argument.  By 'teach to talk' I meant 'learn him some language'.  A retard we can already assume is human even though he may not be up to par mentally it is the same as for a genius to be compared to someone of standard intellect.  A Neanderthal would be something brought back that is no more.  We are not 100% certain, but I figure if something can speak enough that we can question it and then knows and understands the Nicean Creed he is probably more Christian than a Homo Sapiens Sapiens who does not.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 21,866
  • Believed on in the world, received up in glory.
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

We wait for the Vatican to make a decision on what to do, and then we agree to do anything else but that.  ;) 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,388
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

We wait for the Vatican to make a decision on what to do, and then we agree to do anything else but that.  ;) 

Much like a two year old!

No, this time we must be proactive.
However, I think the Vatican beat us. Didn't they come out with some document on how to evangelize aliens, and would not Neanderthals be considered alien to us.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,388
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC

There's debate whether Neanderthals are a subspecies of modern humans, Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, or their own distinct species, Homo neanderthalensis. In either case, they're hominid (part of the human lineage within the Hominidae) status is unperturbed.

fify

In that article you linked, where there is a display, it looked so realistic.
Harvard Prof Says Neanderthal Clones Possible but Experts Doubt It



Aren't there some folks today who have strong Neanderthal traits? I mean couldn't someone dress them up like Neanderthals and fool a lot of people into thinking that they had cloned them?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 03:00:34 AM by Maria »
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline IoanC

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,414
No way the guy in that picture should get baptized. He looks like hell.

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,388
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
No way the guy in that picture should get baptized. He looks like hell.

I have seen guys that look worse. I certainly would not like to meet them in a dark alley.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline IoanC

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,414
No way the guy in that picture should get baptized. He looks like hell.

I have seen guys that look worse. I certainly would not like to meet them in a dark alley.

He doesn't look bad, but non-human.

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,388
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
No way the guy in that picture should get baptized. He looks like hell.

I have seen guys that look worse. I certainly would not like to meet them in a dark alley.

He doesn't look bad, but non-human.

Yeah, he has that cave man look that drives some women crazy.
Remember the TV show, The Flintstones?  Barney?
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline IoanC

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,414
No way the guy in that picture should get baptized. He looks like hell.

I have seen guys that look worse. I certainly would not like to meet them in a dark alley.

He doesn't look bad, but non-human.

Yeah, he has that cave man look that drives some women crazy.
Remember the TV show, The Flintstones?  Barney?

I meant he looks worse than bad, he is beyond human comparison (non-human, horrific).

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,244
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
No way the guy in that picture should get baptized. He looks like hell.

Like monk.

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,555
  • No fate but what we make for ourselves.
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
They'd certainly dominate professional sports and strength-building exercises in particular, that's for sure.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline chrevbel

  • Site Supporter
  • High Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
They'd certainly dominate professional sports and strength-building exercises in particular, that's for sure.
They were short.   Basketball's definitely a non-starter.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
They'd certainly dominate professional sports and strength-building exercises in particular, that's for sure.
They were short.   Basketball's definitely a non-starter.
Never heard of Spud Webb, winner of a slam dunk contest while being one of the shortest NBA players in history, at 5'7"?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,421
  • My borcht recipe is better than your borcht recipe
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Bulgaria


That seems like any discussion on Catholic-Orthodox board or on Politics.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275


That seems like any discussion on Catholic-Orthodox board or on Politics.

Brilliantly ambivalent.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.