OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 16, 2014, 12:10:55 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags CHAT Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Baptism for all hominids? What if Neanderthal man is brought back to life?  (Read 821 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,336


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« on: January 15, 2014, 04:37:10 PM »

@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2014, 04:39:41 PM »

@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,067


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2014, 04:42:38 PM »

@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?
It would be relatively easy. One could even simply insert into a Homo sapiens the distinctive DNA sequence found in Neanderthals (and some of these sequences still exist in living modern humans today).
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 04:43:50 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,336


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2014, 04:43:21 PM »

@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?

I cannot remember where I read this, but some crazy scientist would like to try to clone a prehistoric man.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2014, 04:45:47 PM »

@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?

I cannot remember where I read this, but some crazy scientist would like to try to clone a prehistoric man.

ROTFL!!!
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,067


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2014, 04:47:26 PM »

@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?

I cannot remember where I read this, but some crazy scientist would like to try to clone a prehistoric man.
Harvard Prof Says Neanderthal Clones Possible but Experts Doubt It
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2014, 04:48:04 PM »

@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?
It would be relatively easy. One could even simply insert into a Homo sapiens the distinctive DNA sequence found in Neanderthals (and some of these sequences still exist in living modern humans today).

Really?  (That's a serious "really?")

Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,067


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2014, 04:50:46 PM »

@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?
It would be relatively easy. One could even simply insert into a Homo sapiens the distinctive DNA sequence found in Neanderthals (and some of these sequences still exist in living modern humans today).

Really?  (That's a serious "really?")


"The draft sequence of the Neanderthal genome provides more evidence that interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans may have occurred. It showed more similarities between non-African modern humans and Neanderthals than between African modern humans and Neanderthals. This difference between regions is consistent with interbreeding between Neanderthals and the ancestors of Eurasian modern humans before they branched off into regional groups. Approximately 1 to 4% of non-African modern human DNA is shared with Neanderthals."
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 04:51:01 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,184



WWW
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2014, 04:52:04 PM »

Cloning does not bring back to life, but creates a duplicate. The baptism of Kligonians and Neanderthals is first on the agenda of the next ecumenical council.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 04:52:28 PM by IoanC » Logged

J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2014, 04:53:29 PM »

@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?
It would be relatively easy. One could even simply insert into a Homo sapiens the distinctive DNA sequence found in Neanderthals (and some of these sequences still exist in living modern humans today).

Really?  (That's a serious "really?")


"The draft sequence of the Neanderthal genome provides more evidence that interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans may have occurred. It showed more similarities between non-African modern humans and Neanderthals than between African modern humans and Neanderthals. This difference between regions is consistent with interbreeding between Neanderthals and the ancestors of Eurasian modern humans before they branched off into regional groups. Approximately 1 to 4% of non-African modern human DNA is shared with Neanderthals."

Okie dokie.  Above my pay grade.

So, back to the OP....
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,336


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2014, 04:53:58 PM »

@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?

I cannot remember where I read this, but some crazy scientist would like to try to clone a prehistoric man.
Harvard Prof Says Neanderthal Clones Possible but Experts Doubt It

Thank you. That is the article I read about a year ago. I also saw the coverage live on TV.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Yurysprudentsiya
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Posts: 971


« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2014, 04:55:06 PM »

@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?
It would be relatively easy. One could even simply insert into a Homo sapiens the distinctive DNA sequence found in Neanderthals (and some of these sequences still exist in living modern humans today).

Really?  (That's a serious "really?")


"The draft sequence of the Neanderthal genome provides more evidence that interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans may have occurred. It showed more similarities between non-African modern humans and Neanderthals than between African modern humans and Neanderthals. This difference between regions is consistent with interbreeding between Neanderthals and the ancestors of Eurasian modern humans before they branched off into regional groups. Approximately 1 to 4% of non-African modern human DNA is shared with Neanderthals."

Yes, so descendants of Neanderthals have been baptized for nearly 2000 years now.   
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,336


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2014, 04:55:20 PM »

Cloning does not bring back to life, but creates a duplicate. The baptism of Kligonians and Neanderthals is first on the agenda of the next ecumenical council.

Did you forget a smilie?
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2014, 04:56:44 PM »

Cloning does not bring back to life, but creates a duplicate. The baptism of Kligonians and Neanderthals is first on the agenda of the next ecumenical council.

Did you forget a smilie?

Since when does god need smileys? Grin
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,089



« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2014, 05:00:33 PM »

Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.
Logged

One day we will talk about why people fetishize children, but for now I'll keep on the side of humanity that doesn't think the height of life is a drinking a juice box and eating a tater tot while defecating in their pants.
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,184



WWW
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2014, 05:02:27 PM »

Cloning does not bring back to life, but creates a duplicate. The baptism of Kligonians and Neanderthals is first on the agenda of the next ecumenical council.

Did you forget a smilie?

Up to you if you think it needs a smilie.
Logged

orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2014, 05:03:12 PM »

Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

This sounds like you harbor crypto-rationalist RC tendencies.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
Michał Kalina
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,465


« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2014, 05:10:59 PM »

Logged

no longer posting here
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,067


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2014, 05:18:30 PM »

"Train up a Neanderthal in the way he should go; and when he is old, he will not depart from it."
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,089



« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2014, 05:22:13 PM »

Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

This sounds like you harbor crypto-rationalist RC tendencies.

I harbour whatever you say I harbour.
If I didn't, then why would I say I harboured it?

Just looking for some form of criteria.  
Logged

One day we will talk about why people fetishize children, but for now I'll keep on the side of humanity that doesn't think the height of life is a drinking a juice box and eating a tater tot while defecating in their pants.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2014, 05:24:28 PM »

Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

This sounds like you harbor crypto-rationalist RC tendencies.

I harbour whatever you say I harbour.
If I didn't, then why would I say I harboured it?

Just looking for some form of criteria.  

How ridiculously crypto-rationalist of you, Vamrat!! Grin Grin
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
xOrthodox4Christx
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 1,923


xOrthodox4Christx
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2014, 05:52:41 PM »

I have a similar question.

What about the undead?  Shocked
Logged

My posting on this forum is currently on hiatus, until mid-June 2014.

Have a nice spring. Smiley
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,336


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2014, 05:55:02 PM »

Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

Teach him to talk?

Language is innate! I have not studied Neanderthal anatomy and physiology, but If Neanderthal man has the proper equipment needed to vocalize: the correct oral apparatus with good tongue agility, the right placement of vocal folds in the pharyngeal area, and the requisite brain development, and if he is in daily contact with humans, he will learn to speak.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2014, 05:55:43 PM »

Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

This sounds like you harbor crypto-rationalist RC tendencies.

I harbour whatever you say I harbour.
If I didn't, then why would I say I harboured it?

Just looking for some form of criteria.  

Your soul is in peril. Criteria sounds a little too close to cafeteria for my tastes.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2014, 05:56:38 PM »

Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

Teach him to talk?

Language is innate! I have not studied Neanderthal anatomy and physiology, but If Neanderthal man has the proper equipment needed to vocalize: the correct oral apparatus with good tongue agility, the right placement of vocal folds in the pharyngeal area, and the requisite brain development, and if he is in daily contact with humans, he will learn to speak.

Only that which can speak can be dumb.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
Michał Kalina
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,465


« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2014, 05:57:34 PM »

Language is innate! I have not studied Neanderthal anatomy and physiology, but If Neanderthal man has the proper equipment needed to vocalize: the correct oral apparatus with good tongue agility, the right placement of vocal folds in the pharyngeal area, and the requisite brain development, and if he is in daily contact with humans, he will learn to speak.

No baptism for voiceless then?

What about the undead?  Shocked

AFAIK, Catholics do something like that. They think 1-hour dead is not dead yet or sort of.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 05:58:28 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

no longer posting here
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 3,793



WWW
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2014, 06:50:45 PM »

Studies show that a small portion of human DNA is Neanderthal. So in a way, Neanderthals are getting baptized.
Logged
JamesR
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 4,773


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2014, 07:58:43 PM »

@jetavan - (again) btw are "hominids" pre- or post- Neanderthal? Do they qualify for Baptism?
According to the most recent classification, "hominid" would include all great apes (orangutan, chimps, gorillas, and humans).

However, historically, "hominid" has been limited to modern humans and their ancestors who split from the great apes, and this would include the genera Australopithecus and Homo (Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, e.g.). Neanderthals would be (according to some anthropologists) a subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus also hominid.

I believe all living beings qualify for Baptism -- that is, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily Baptism with water.

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

How likely is that to happen?
It would be relatively easy. One could even simply insert into a Homo sapiens the distinctive DNA sequence found in Neanderthals (and some of these sequences still exist in living modern humans today).

It may also be fair to point out though however that while it can be done, there is a very good chance that it would be a stillborn or would die minutes after birth. Even modern animals that we clone die prematurely more often than they survive. Now add to that the complications of cloning an extinct species.
Logged

Quote
Wherever goes JamesR goes, he is there.
-Orthonorm
JamesR
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 4,773


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2014, 08:07:51 PM »

Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

Well what if he can't?

The mentally incapacitated sometimes can't and yet the Church baptizes and communes them.
Logged

Quote
Wherever goes JamesR goes, he is there.
-Orthonorm
podkarpatska
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 7,544


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2014, 09:59:19 PM »

Really?  What are you all going to postulate about next, Brian the alien kid from the Excede Internet ads? 

People without faith tend to view religious belief as absurd.

Do we really need to reinforce their preconceptions by entertaining a supposedly serious  discussion about a hypothetical absurdity?  (If memory serves me right, stuff like this usually was usually discussed best late at night in a hazy college dorm when one was about nineteen years old. )
Logged
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,089



« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2014, 10:06:14 PM »

Raise him as a human and teach him to talk.  If he believes the Nicean Creed then baptize and commune him as normal.

Well what if he can't?

The mentally incapacitated sometimes can't and yet the Church baptizes and communes them.

It seems that the crux of the matter is whether or not Neanderthals were human.  I think they are, but 'I think' is not a good argument.  By 'teach to talk' I meant 'learn him some language'.  A retard we can already assume is human even though he may not be up to par mentally it is the same as for a genius to be compared to someone of standard intellect.  A Neanderthal would be something brought back that is no more.  We are not 100% certain, but I figure if something can speak enough that we can question it and then knows and understands the Nicean Creed he is probably more Christian than a Homo Sapiens Sapiens who does not.
Logged

One day we will talk about why people fetishize children, but for now I'll keep on the side of humanity that doesn't think the height of life is a drinking a juice box and eating a tater tot while defecating in their pants.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong." - Carl Kraeff
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 11,994


Lion of Judah, Lion of Arabs, Lion of Everyone


WWW
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2014, 11:49:24 PM »

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

We wait for the Vatican to make a decision on what to do, and then we agree to do anything else but that.  Wink 
Logged

"Best of all, Mor Ephrem won't trap you into having his baby." - dzheremi

"Mor Ephrim will not be allowed in(to the getes of heaven) because God doesnt know him." - Cackles

"You are consistently one of the cruelest posters on this forum." - William
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,336


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2014, 01:18:23 AM »

Okay, so what if Neanderthal man is brought back to life through cloning and access to some viable DNA from a frozen corpse?

We wait for the Vatican to make a decision on what to do, and then we agree to do anything else but that.  Wink 

Much like a two year old!

No, this time we must be proactive.
However, I think the Vatican beat us. Didn't they come out with some document on how to evangelize aliens, and would not Neanderthals be considered alien to us.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,336


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2014, 02:58:15 AM »


There's debate whether Neanderthals are a subspecies of modern humans, Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, or their own distinct species, Homo neanderthalensis. In either case, they're hominid (part of the human lineage within the Hominidae) status is unperturbed.

fify

In that article you linked, where there is a display, it looked so realistic.
Harvard Prof Says Neanderthal Clones Possible but Experts Doubt It



Aren't there some folks today who have strong Neanderthal traits? I mean couldn't someone dress them up like Neanderthals and fool a lot of people into thinking that they had cloned them?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 03:00:34 AM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,184



WWW
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2014, 03:03:06 AM »

No way the guy in that picture should get baptized. He looks like hell.
Logged

Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,336


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2014, 03:15:23 AM »

No way the guy in that picture should get baptized. He looks like hell.

I have seen guys that look worse. I certainly would not like to meet them in a dark alley.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,184



WWW
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2014, 03:51:34 AM »

No way the guy in that picture should get baptized. He looks like hell.

I have seen guys that look worse. I certainly would not like to meet them in a dark alley.

He doesn't look bad, but non-human.
Logged

Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,336


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2014, 03:55:12 AM »

No way the guy in that picture should get baptized. He looks like hell.

I have seen guys that look worse. I certainly would not like to meet them in a dark alley.

He doesn't look bad, but non-human.

Yeah, he has that cave man look that drives some women crazy.
Remember the TV show, The Flintstones?  Barney?
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,184



WWW
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2014, 04:24:30 AM »

No way the guy in that picture should get baptized. He looks like hell.

I have seen guys that look worse. I certainly would not like to meet them in a dark alley.

He doesn't look bad, but non-human.

Yeah, he has that cave man look that drives some women crazy.
Remember the TV show, The Flintstones?  Barney?

I meant he looks worse than bad, he is beyond human comparison (non-human, horrific).
Logged

Michał Kalina
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,465


« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2014, 05:00:40 AM »

No way the guy in that picture should get baptized. He looks like hell.

Like monk.
Logged

no longer posting here
JamesR
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 4,773


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2014, 04:17:09 PM »

They'd certainly dominate professional sports and strength-building exercises in particular, that's for sure.
Logged

Quote
Wherever goes JamesR goes, he is there.
-Orthonorm
chrevbel
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 708



« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2014, 04:44:45 PM »

They'd certainly dominate professional sports and strength-building exercises in particular, that's for sure.
They were short.   Basketball's definitely a non-starter.
Logged
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,067


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2014, 04:50:50 PM »

They'd certainly dominate professional sports and strength-building exercises in particular, that's for sure.
They were short.   Basketball's definitely a non-starter.
Never heard of Spud Webb, winner of a slam dunk contest while being one of the shortest NBA players in history, at 5'7"?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: <Insert your favourite patriotic attribute here> Orthodox
Posts: 5,924



« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2014, 04:52:48 PM »



That seems like any discussion on Catholic-Orthodox board or on Politics.
Logged

orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2014, 04:54:10 PM »



That seems like any discussion on Catholic-Orthodox board or on Politics.

Brilliantly ambivalent.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.164 seconds with 73 queries.