Author Topic: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism  (Read 2129 times)

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Offline wainscottbl

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Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« on: January 12, 2014, 01:59:19 PM »
So that catchy song by Taylor Swift sometimes makes me think the East/West schism is what she is singing about. Listen to it and imagine she is singing about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA4iX5D9Z64

Actually this is one of the Taylor Swift songs I sadly have to admit I like. I admit I am totally taken by her as a celebrity crush, but most of her music I find juvenile in nature. This is one of those songs that isn't just really catchy when you hear it but I guess I can of like. The music video is likable, too. I almost blush to say all this. But she could be singing about East/West relationships rather than her own with some guy couldn't she? I mean listen if you can bring yourself to and imagine that's what she's singing about. I thought this would be a light way to bring up the great difficulty in East/West relations. There is really some unjust hatred on both sides. Both sides sometimes get caught up on petty issues rather than doctrine. It's like a juvenile  relationship almost. After we all get over making fun of me for being in love with Taylor Swift and posting her music video, we can have a serious religious discussion about East and West relations!
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2014, 02:07:42 PM »
T-Swizzle buzzed me about your superficial drizzle and to stop the predjudical sizzle.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2014, 02:12:15 PM »
I'm afraid I don't know what this song is about, even after reading the lyrics.   Can someone summarize?
"when Mme. Vauquer lay down to rest on the day of M. Goriot's installation, her heart, like a larded partridge, sweltered before the fire of a burning desire to shake off the shroud of Vauquer and rise again as Goriot." - Balzac

Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2014, 02:19:13 PM »
T-Swizzle buzzed me about your superficial drizzle and to stop the predjudical sizzle.

Alright maybe using this song was a silly way to breach the subject but come on we talk a lot about East and West getting back together and making up but it really seems that we are never, never getting back together again. I think there are petty reasons on both sides that stop serious debate. Then again there are more serious, not just petty reasons for this. I mean Rome would really have to humble itself if it denied the whole papal doctrine that it perfected with Vatican I and papal infallibility. It would cause massive schism in the Latin Church. Also she would have to remove the whole Filoque clause from her Creed. And have to get her act together and clean up the massive liberalism. That enough is to pretty much make sure we are never, ever getting back together again. I trust in God, but sometimes it just seems impossible. I think traditionalists are hoping at least the Russian Orthodox Church becomes united with Rome because of the Fatima thing, which was my hope when I was a trad.But I just wonder if we can ever get past the minor issues that can be looked past if we are decent enough, let alone the major issues of doctrine. One side has to admit it was wrong for a thousand years. I am not sure it is going to be as simple kissing and making up or the prodigal son coming home  and embracing his father. Part of the family will leave the family and there will be a big family argument and another feud.  
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2014, 02:22:32 PM »
Still I somehow, like dreaming teenager who just was in a big break up with a long time girlfriend or whatever, like to think we will get back together even though I know the breakup was really serious and there are a lot of issues to work out. Maybe it is sillier for me to wish for East/West union than to use a Taylor Swift song for my medium. Really looking into Eastern Orthodoxy I now realise more about the history of the schism and how deep rooted and complicated it is. In the West we are so ignorant of it and just say the East were being jerks. But looking at it I have to admit there were faults on both sides and over the years they have really gotten personal. Still, I guess I am hoping beyond hope.
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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2014, 02:25:58 PM »
Perhaps I am looking at this in the wrong way, but why would Catholics and Eastern Orthodox want to get back together?  Aren't they better off divorced?
"when Mme. Vauquer lay down to rest on the day of M. Goriot's installation, her heart, like a larded partridge, sweltered before the fire of a burning desire to shake off the shroud of Vauquer and rise again as Goriot." - Balzac

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2014, 03:04:37 PM »
So that catchy song by Taylor Swift sometimes makes me think the East/West schism is what she is singing about. Listen to it and imagine she is singing about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA4iX5D9Z64
She was singing about an ex-boyfriend. If you wish to apply that superficial drivel to relations between East and West, then knock yourself out.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2014, 03:22:08 PM »
Wouldn't have expected this thread.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 03:23:10 PM by Nephi »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2014, 04:23:41 PM »
Wouldn't have expected this thread.

Why not?
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2014, 04:30:39 PM »
Perhaps I am looking at this in the wrong way, but why would Catholics and Eastern Orthodox want to get back together?  Aren't they better off divorced?

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I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2014, 04:36:23 PM »
We seek not conquest, but the return of our brethren, whose separation from us is tearing us apart.
 - St Gregory of Nazianzen

"Even hoar hairs have something to learn; and old age, it would seem, cannot in all respects be trusted for wisdom.  I at any rate, knowing better than anyone, as I did, the thoughts and the heresy of the Apollinarians, and seeing that their folly was intolerable; yet thinking that I could tame them by patience and soften them by degrees, I let my hopes make me eager to attain this object.  But, as it seems, I overlooked the fact that I was making them worse, and injuring the Church by my untimely philosophy.  For gentleness does not put bad men out of countenance." - St. Gregory the Theologian, Letter 125
"when Mme. Vauquer lay down to rest on the day of M. Goriot's installation, her heart, like a larded partridge, sweltered before the fire of a burning desire to shake off the shroud of Vauquer and rise again as Goriot." - Balzac

Offline Alpo

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2014, 04:49:36 PM »
^IMO that isn't anyhow contradictory with the other Gregorian quote.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2014, 05:05:34 PM »
Rome is a madhouse with liberals right now but there are more conservative young men in the seminaries right now. So say in thirty years all the old Vatican II priests and bishops die and its mostly conservatives again and Rome begins fixing its problems form Vatican II. Then what? The liberals would love to just embrace the Eastern Orthodox and hold hands but the Eastern Orthodox would have problems with the pants wearing liberal nuns and liberal Jesuits. The liberals would be suprised when the East said, "Not until you at least take away papal infallibility and papal supremecy." The liberals would be lost. So forget them. They are dying and I'm glad. So the right wing comes back in to Rome. A good, traditional pope is elected. What then?

Since the Latin Church will be more conservative and less inclined to just let heresy (what it sees as heresy) pass for the sake of luv and unity, will there not be a schism in the Latin Church if Rome says we will get rid of the papal thing? I think there will always be some sort of schism in the Church because St. Paul talked about it and Our Lord warned there would be infighting. The question is will the majority of the West be willing to deny the papal doctrine and take a proper view on the procession of the Holy Spirit? I think the Filoque thing can be worked out by properly understanding how the Spirit can process from the Father by means of the Son's Incarnation, but the papal doctrine is the biggest thing. Had not Vatican I came along it might have been easier. Before that the authority of the Pope was less clear because there was no actual doctrine of infallibility. I think infallibility has really made things difficult and set things up for a doctrinal war when Rome and Constantinople have serious talks. With a more conservative Rome the bishops will be less inclined to have friendly talks with what they see as obstinate schismatics and heretics.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2014, 05:40:06 PM »
If you wish to apply that superficial drivel

I said it better:

superficial drizzle
:-* :P
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2014, 06:06:11 PM »
If you wish to apply that superficial drivel

I said it better:

superficial drizzle
:-* :P
Only you would say that. ;)
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2014, 07:32:29 PM »
The disciples also had pride blinding them when they tried to stop some unknown believers from teaching and healing in Christ name, and Jesus soundly rebuked them.

Mark 9
Whoever Is Not Against Us Is for Us

38“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

39“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2014, 08:36:14 PM »
The disciples also had pride blinding them when they tried to stop some unknown believers from teaching and healing in Christ name, and Jesus soundly rebuked them.

Mark 9
Whoever Is Not Against Us Is for Us

38“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

39“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

Yes, which is why I think both Catholic and Orthodox exorcisms work, as well as Protestant ministers who drive out devils on the name of Christ. I know some Catholics would object, particularly trads, but I think the reason Protestants can drive our demons is not because they have the apostolic faith but because they use the name of Christ, which the devils hate. And they do it sincerely.

Still it does not make their sectarian heresy right. And you have to believe, if you have an idea of the apostolic faith, that one side went wrong in the Great Schism. Catholics either have to admit they are wrong or Eastern Orthodox do. Catholics and Orthodox generally agree each side has legitimate sacraments, and both usually accept Protestant baptisms as valid. So Protestants can baptise. Clearly they can drive out devils.

The question is will amends ever be made between East and West? Both have the benefit of the episcopal rule, not congregational rule, as well as agreeing on major issues like sacraments, prayer to Mary, etc. There were always minor differences of how that was understood, but it was really the papal issue and the Filoque that really caused the rift. And those have to be taken care of. The Rosary is a Western Catholic thing, but it's not contrary to the Orthodox faith, though most Orthodox prefer not to pray it. But the Latins having their Rosary and unleavened hosts is not a big issue. The papal surememecy and infallibility is. Will we ever get back together? I think with people arguing over petty issues like what kind of bread to issue it's sort of like with a romantic relationship--likely not--but if we can get serious and stop bickering over unimportant differences, I think that's a chance.

For example, I think some Latins of the more traditional mind are very against anything non-Latin, including even the Anglican Use. They think they should have to say the Latin Mass. I have seen some argue against married clergy and other Eastern ways of doing things. On the other hand in the East there is a tendency to generalize Western Catholics too much, which even I find myself going sometimes. I think there are legitimate problems with Scholasticism but I think Thomas Aquinas made some great points. Maybe his proving the Eucharist in Aristotelian terms is too much for many Easterns but his proof of the existence of God means a lot to me. I think it gives atheists a lot to prove. I think it's seeing what really matters is doctrine, not superficial questions of whether clergy should be married, the bread should be leavened, or how hot Taylor Swift is. Some of the matters we get after each other are really superficial drivel!  ;)
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2014, 08:52:09 PM »
The disciples also had pride blinding them when they tried to stop some unknown believers from teaching and healing in Christ name, and Jesus soundly rebuked them.

Mark 9
Whoever Is Not Against Us Is for Us

38“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

39“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

Yes, which is why I think both Catholic and Orthodox exorcisms work, as well as Protestant ministers who drive out devils on the name of Christ. I know some Catholics would object, particularly trads, but I think the reason Protestants can drive our demons is not because they have the apostolic faith but because they use the name of Christ, which the devils hate. And they do it sincerely.

Still it does not make their sectarian heresy right. And you have to believe, if you have an idea of the apostolic faith, that one side went wrong in the Great Schism. Catholics either have to admit they are wrong or Eastern Orthodox do. Catholics and Orthodox generally agree each side has legitimate sacraments, and both usually accept Protestant baptisms as valid. So Protestants can baptise. Clearly they can drive out devils.

The question is will amends ever be made between East and West? Both have the benefit of the episcopal rule, not congregational rule, as well as agreeing on major issues like sacraments, prayer to Mary, etc. There were always minor differences of how that was understood, but it was really the papal issue and the Filoque that really caused the rift. And those have to be taken care of. The Rosary is a Western Catholic thing, but it's not contrary to the Orthodox faith, though most Orthodox prefer not to pray it. But the Latins having their Rosary and unleavened hosts is not a big issue. The papal surememecy and infallibility is. Will we ever get back together? I think with people arguing over petty issues like what kind of bread to issue it's sort of like with a romantic relationship--likely not--but if we can get serious and stop bickering over unimportant differences, I think that's a chance.

For example, I think some Latins of the more traditional mind are very against anything non-Latin, including even the Anglican Use. They think they should have to say the Latin Mass. I have seen some argue against married clergy and other Eastern ways of doing things. On the other hand in the East there is a tendency to generalize Western Catholics too much, which even I find myself going sometimes. I think there are legitimate problems with Scholasticism but I think Thomas Aquinas made some great points. Maybe his proving the Eucharist in Aristotelian terms is too much for many Easterns but his proof of the existence of God means a lot to me. I think it gives atheists a lot to prove. I think it's seeing what really matters is doctrine, not superficial questions of whether clergy should be married, the bread should be leavened, or how hot Taylor Swift is. Some of the matters we get after each other are really superficial drivel!  ;)

My view is too simple and forgiving for most, There are none who are good, and there are none who are righteous, all fall short, therefore as I quoted Jesus above, all who are not against us are with us, and all christians who simply believe in Jesus died for our sins is with us in my humble opinion, I belong to GOA by birth and see no need to change, what I see as wrong is everyone who believes they have a better way than the other christians,  I have argued this with all sides of the issue, Protestant, Catholic Orthodox, all have those who believe they are better than the other, that in my opinion is the biggest problem, Love on another, and forget the little details that are the same as the Jewish officials mistakes that Jesus pointed out.

Do you think that we do not make the same mistake when we hold little unimportant theological differences over our neighbors?

IMHO God will not condemn us based on what Church we went to, and the differences in doctrine do not interest him, he desires mercy above all.

Romans 3

The Whole World Guilty before God

9What then? Are we any better?p Not at all! For we have previously charged that both Jewsq and Gentilesr, s are all under sin,t, u 10as it is written:v

There is no one righteous, not even one.
11There is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away;
all alike have become useless.
There is no one who does what is good,
not even one.w, x
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 08:56:17 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2014, 12:31:20 AM »
I can read the headlines now:  Taylor Swift heals 1000 year schism f the churches.

Yeah, like that's ever going to ever happen.  Swift's music is so egotistical and devoid of any musical value.
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2014, 12:13:26 AM »
The disciples also had pride blinding them when they tried to stop some unknown believers from teaching and healing in Christ name, and Jesus soundly rebuked them.

Mark 9
Whoever Is Not Against Us Is for Us

38“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

39“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

Yes, which is why I think both Catholic and Orthodox exorcisms work, as well as Protestant ministers who drive out devils on the name of Christ. I know some Catholics would object, particularly trads, but I think the reason Protestants can drive our demons is not because they have the apostolic faith but because they use the name of Christ, which the devils hate. And they do it sincerely.

Still it does not make their sectarian heresy right. And you have to believe, if you have an idea of the apostolic faith, that one side went wrong in the Great Schism. Catholics either have to admit they are wrong or Eastern Orthodox do. Catholics and Orthodox generally agree each side has legitimate sacraments, and both usually accept Protestant baptisms as valid. So Protestants can baptise. Clearly they can drive out devils.

The question is will amends ever be made between East and West? Both have the benefit of the episcopal rule, not congregational rule, as well as agreeing on major issues like sacraments, prayer to Mary, etc. There were always minor differences of how that was understood, but it was really the papal issue and the Filoque that really caused the rift. And those have to be taken care of. The Rosary is a Western Catholic thing, but it's not contrary to the Orthodox faith, though most Orthodox prefer not to pray it. But the Latins having their Rosary and unleavened hosts is not a big issue. The papal surememecy and infallibility is. Will we ever get back together? I think with people arguing over petty issues like what kind of bread to issue it's sort of like with a romantic relationship--likely not--but if we can get serious and stop bickering over unimportant differences, I think that's a chance.

For example, I think some Latins of the more traditional mind are very against anything non-Latin, including even the Anglican Use. They think they should have to say the Latin Mass. I have seen some argue against married clergy and other Eastern ways of doing things. On the other hand in the East there is a tendency to generalize Western Catholics too much, which even I find myself going sometimes. I think there are legitimate problems with Scholasticism but I think Thomas Aquinas made some great points. Maybe his proving the Eucharist in Aristotelian terms is too much for many Easterns but his proof of the existence of God means a lot to me. I think it gives atheists a lot to prove. I think it's seeing what really matters is doctrine, not superficial questions of whether clergy should be married, the bread should be leavened, or how hot Taylor Swift is. Some of the matters we get after each other are really superficial drivel!  ;)

My view is too simple and forgiving for most, There are none who are good, and there are none who are righteous, all fall short, therefore as I quoted Jesus above, all who are not against us are with us, and all christians who simply believe in Jesus died for our sins is with us in my humble opinion, I belong to GOA by birth and see no need to change, what I see as wrong is everyone who believes they have a better way than the other christians,  I have argued this with all sides of the issue, Protestant, Catholic Orthodox, all have those who believe they are better than the other, that in my opinion is the biggest problem, Love on another, and forget the little details that are the same as the Jewish officials mistakes that Jesus pointed out.

Do you think that we do not make the same mistake when we hold little unimportant theological differences over our neighbors?

IMHO God will not condemn us based on what Church we went to, and the differences in doctrine do not interest him, he desires mercy above all.

Romans 3

The Whole World Guilty before God

9What then? Are we any better?p Not at all! For we have previously charged that both Jewsq and Gentilesr, s are all under sin,t, u 10as it is written:v

There is no one righteous, not even one.
11There is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away;
all alike have become useless.
There is no one who does what is good,
not even one.w, x

I agree, SinfulHypocrite. Still one is right, and the rest are wrong. Only the will to be right can save us. Lord have mercy. Still, I hope for the Latin and Eastern Church to come back together. As for the Protestants, it's nothing against this or that Protestant, but the whole mindset of Protestantism is so self-aimed that I fear only their good hearts can create any real unity among them. It's hard to have unity if you follow your own heart like the Protestant.

I do not wish to condemn anyone, but the Father condemns us all. Only the Son will redeem us if we are just as far as God made man understands us. Therefore let us pray

O Adam, gone down to Hades for so many years, remember how long thou with Abraham didst dwell in sorrow. Therefore, remember us in thy prayers with Christ, and do not let us go down to eternal fire with thy son Cain and the disgusting betrayer, Judas. Pray God have mercy on us at the hour of our death, especially to the Most Holy Mother of God.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
                                                             -Aristotle



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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Taylor Swift and the Great Schism
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2014, 05:54:55 PM »
Still, one is right and the rest are wrong

This is said by Catholics about Orthodox, Protestants about Catholics, Orthodox about protestant, and so on ad. infinitum.

While the majority go to find salvation where they have been taught. They are loved by their creator just as we are. He will not judge them according to what the others think.

Where does this stuff end? Who can prove where God is , or is not?

 I simply acknowledge them as faithful Christians, the same to me as my own GOA. I go to their weddings and funerals and baptisms, and pray to the same God as at my church. I wish them to come to my Church as well.

They cannot all go to one Church at the same time, they would not all fit. :angel:
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 06:10:34 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“