Author Topic: Researching Vagante Group Called "Orthodox Archdiocese of New Mexico"  (Read 1034 times)

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Offline Alexius888

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I am researching a book on a VERY vagante group that has claimed to be "Orthodox" in the past. In the 1970s they were self-designated as Old Catholics, but then in 1981 news stories stated they had become Orthodox by joining the "ORTHODOX ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW MEXICO"

The only reference I have found in my research with those exact words is on a website by notorious sex offender Alan Stanford (aka Archbishop Thaddeus), leader or paper-prelate of one of the groups callings itself the "American Orthodox Church."

I would appreciate if anyone could offer some clarification as to who or whom or what the ORTHODOX ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW MEXICO was in the early 1980s.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Offline mike

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Re: Researching Vagante Group Called "Orthodox Archdiocese of New Mexico"
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2014, 06:01:30 AM »
The question is, why are you researching them. Who cares?
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Researching Vagante Group Called "Orthodox Archdiocese of New Mexico"
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2014, 06:05:33 AM »
The question is, why are you researching them. Who cares?

People are curious. Some people are collecting post stamps, some people are researching weirdo religious groups.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 06:05:53 AM by Alpo »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Researching Vagante Group Called "Orthodox Archdiocese of New Mexico"
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2014, 06:46:20 AM »
I am researching a book on a VERY vagante group that has claimed to be "Orthodox" in the past. In the 1970s they were self-designated as Old Catholics, but then in 1981 news stories stated they had become Orthodox by joining the "ORTHODOX ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW MEXICO"

The only reference I have found in my research with those exact words is on a website by notorious sex offender Alan Stanford (aka Archbishop Thaddeus), leader or paper-prelate of one of the groups callings itself the "American Orthodox Church."

I would appreciate if anyone could offer some clarification as to who or whom or what the ORTHODOX ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW MEXICO was in the early 1980s.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
AFAIK, there has not yet been an Orthodox Archdiocese of New Mexico of any canonical Church.

by the early 1980's the founder of the vagante "American Orthodox Church," the deposed and defrocked former Bp. Aftimios Ofiesh had been deceased for decades, and what part broke off from the canonical American Orthodox Catholic Church (which was soon reintegrated back into the OCA and Antiochian Archdiocese) had been splintered and drifting (if not running) away from Orthodoxy for half a century. Among that mess I assUme that you will find the "Orthodox Archdiocese of New Mexico."
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Researching Vagante Group Called "Orthodox Archdiocese of New Mexico"
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2014, 09:41:58 AM »
Send a pm to Irish Melkite, he's quite the historian of such matters. If anyone knows he will.

Offline biro

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Re: Researching Vagante Group Called "Orthodox Archdiocese of New Mexico"
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2014, 10:44:53 AM »
I tried a Google search, but it didn't really come up with anything. Sorry.  :)
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Offline Alexius888

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Re: Researching Vagante Group Called "Orthodox Archdiocese of New Mexico"
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2014, 12:31:08 PM »
I realize the topic is a bit esoteric and a bit of a shot in the dark (i.e. I'm hoping someone just "knows" the group I am looking for info on). The book is about a very odd group (with a more visible public profile) with a quite amazing history that few know the details of. I hesitate to publicly reveal the name of the group as of yet due to the nature of their possible reaction ( which could result in contacts being harassed, bullied, etc.)

The reason I am trying to determine the nature of the "Archdiocese of New Mexico" is so that I can cover all of the bases. For instance, if the group's original connection to what it calls Orthodoxy was via a "Bishop" who was possibly a homosexual and a sex offender (Alan Stanford), that's another piece in the puzzle explaining "other" developments.

I will try to contact Irish Melkite and see if he can assist.

Thanks

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Offline ialmisry

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Irish Melkite

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Re: Researching Vagante Group Called "Orthodox Archdiocese of New Mexico"
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2014, 02:06:09 PM »
I am researching a book on a VERY vagante group that has claimed to be "Orthodox" in the past. In the 1970s they were self-designated as Old Catholics, but then in 1981 news stories stated they had become Orthodox by joining the "ORTHODOX ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW MEXICO"

If I understand you correctly, you have 2 research interests:

(1) some body that originally identified as Old Catholic but subsequently joined the OANM; and,
(2) the OANM itself, because the main subjects of your research were apparently subsumed into the OANM

If I'm correct in those assumptions, I might be able to offer some assistance since I follow vagante, both Catholic and Orthodox, pretty closely and have for many years.  

Quote
The only reference I have found in my research with those exact words is on a website by notorious sex offender Alan Stanford (aka Archbishop Thaddeus), leader or paper-prelate of one of the groups callings itself the "American Orthodox Church."

It's likely to be the only reference you will find - at least on-line. The OANM (I don't think that it ever used the acronym, but I can't be bothered typing its name in full each time) eventually morphed* into what is now styled as the American Orthodox Church, American Orthodox Catholic Church, or North American Orthodox Church. Joseph Thaddeus (aka) Stanford) still uses a slightly modified version of the OANM name (Archdiocese of New Mexico, last I checked) as one of the stylings for the principal (and probably only) 'jurisdiction' of his American Orthodox Church. (It's also sometimes called the 'Diocese of the Southwest')  

Quote
I would appreciate if anyone could offer some clarification as to who or whom or what the ORTHODOX ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW MEXICO was in the early 1980s.

You might pick up one of 'Bishop' Karl Pruter's books (try Abebooks.com) - his Directory of Autocephalus Bishops or Old Catholic Sourcebook are likely to have some info - (my own copies are currently loaned to someone or I'd check and verify that). As memory serves, you want to look for material about 'Archbishop' David Johnson.

If you post the name of the Old Catholic body or that of their leader, I may be able to add some more details.

Many years,

Neil

*morphed - bad choice of verb as the AOC already existed - in a number of incarnations and under a multitude of names, all of which claimed to be the successor of the initially schismatic, subsequently vagante, ecclesial body formed by Aftimios Ofiesh after he broke with/was deposed from the canonical jurisdiction erected under the Moscow Patriarchate. 'Absorbed into' would better describe the OANM's action with respect to the AOC. So, you've got your OC merging into the OANM and the latter subsequently (early '80s) merging into one of the AOCs.

PS Started typing this early this morning and had to leave - just got back, finished it, and now see your subsequent post. I don't believe that Joseph Thaddeus/Stanford was involved w/ OANM at the time on which you're focused - seems to me that he came into the picture subsequently.

I'm puzzled though by your description of these folks as having a very public profile, in what sounds like the present tense, if they were absorbed into the OANM back in the '70s, at which time they would seem to have lost any identity as a distinct ecclesial body. Haven't yet checked my email to see if/what you've written me. Should you be willing to id the group to me via PM or email, I certainly won't divulge or post it publicly, but it might give me a lot better shot at answering your query or pointing you in a meaningful direction.  
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 02:27:02 PM by Irish Melkite »
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Offline Alexius888

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Re: Researching Vagante Group Called "Orthodox Archdiocese of New Mexico"
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2014, 02:24:40 PM »
Thanks Irish Melkite!

So if I can clarify, are you saying that my inclination to tie this to the Thaddeus (Stanford) track is correct? The Apostle1 site does mention receiving "paperwork" from a David Mark Johnson in 1981.

Also, I sent you a personal email, so if you would like to discuss the MAIN group I am researching, we can do it there. As I say, I am trying to protect my contacts from any harassment.

Offline Alexius888

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Re: Researching Vagante Group Called "Orthodox Archdiocese of New Mexico"
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2014, 02:42:41 PM »
I think I somehow missed the end section of your message ... either way, it seems I'm still on the right track in terms of knowing which "group" or paper-prelate was involved. Just email me and we can discuss the main focus of my research ... once you hear the name you will understand what I mean about "public profile."

Thanks again

Offline Irish Melkite

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Re: Researching Vagante Group Called "Orthodox Archdiocese of New Mexico"
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2014, 03:02:10 PM »
So if I can clarify, are you saying that my inclination to tie this to the Thaddeus (Stanford) track is correct? The Apostle1 site does mention receiving "paperwork" from a David Mark Johnson in 1981

Eventually, yes, but I don't believe Thaddeus was involved with OANM back in the 70s - He came into the picture about a decade afterwards. having been 'ordained bishop' about 1980/81. Prior to that he was part of the 'autocephalous/independent Catholic/Orthodox movement' (I believe he was involved with the Western Orthodox Church in America in the 70s), but he wasn't a prominent player, though he did manage to snag, as one of his consecrators, Wallace de Ortega Maxey, himself a movement heavyweight.

Quote
Also, I sent you a personal email, so if you would like to discuss the MAIN group I am researching, we can do it there. As I say, I am trying to protect my contacts from any harassment.

I'll go check it out.

Many years,

Neil
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