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Author Topic: Headscarves - Revisiting an Old Topic  (Read 13640 times) Average Rating: 0
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Felipe Ortiz
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« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2005, 03:19:51 PM »

The main ROCOR church here in Houston is very close to 100% ethnic Russians and Ukrainians, to the point that the sermon is given in Russian, and I'd estimate at least half of those women wear a head covering of some sort.

Same thing here. My ROCOR parish in S+úo Paulo is about 90% ethnic Russian, and about 70% of the female attendance wear headscarves.

I've saw recent photos of a service in Ishim, Siberia. As far as I can recall, all the women were covering their heads, including the infants.

And now for a completely useless and improper comment: besides all the traditional, patristical etc. grounds... I have noticed that girls and young women wearing headscarves often become very charming. Many of them get an irresistibly angelical look you almost cannot find in girls today (possibly this is the reason by which the angels themselves like them with head coverings, according to a previous post).  Cheesy I can even recall a few cases in which a nice headscarf has proved to be a much better option than the supposedly stylish hair it covered.  Afro Yes, almost all women in the world would vehemently disagree; but it is also true that a large part of the male public would agree with me, even if they prefer not to overtly acknowledge it out of understandable security reasons.

EDIT AFTER RE-READING THE POST: On a second thought, I need to admit that the described effects may depend much on the headscarf choosen. The user herself also plays a major role. Grin
« Last Edit: April 06, 2005, 03:57:07 PM by Felipe Ortiz » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2005, 04:20:04 PM »

There are (still) some people that must have a code! A guide to perform their lives.

The coming of Christ has changed this attitude (unfortunately not for all of us).

In Orthodox Church there are NO fashion guides. The teaching of S. Paul is not about a presentation formula.

We (men and women) stand before God as free beings with the freedom to present our REAL selves and to LOOK upon the face of our God.

Why the original question was asked anyway? Was the person who started this topic searching for a proper way to perform salvation for herself?

Whatever the motivation was, the real question is about the necessity for the description of a form that will mould the "unsaved SELF" to a "saved person". Such a pattern does not exist.

S. Paul talks about behavior and hair style in the same context as someone would have described the hair style and the clothes and the behavior of a bride. What is important to analyze and search for in this case is the internal "dimension" of the bride. If a lady wants to be a bride she must find her bridegroom. Bridegroom is Christ. This is the important issue that S. paul is talking about. He is always talking about persons and relations, not about their appearance.

Matthew 25/10"And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; And the door was shut.

Church is not an army in uniform.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2005, 04:34:59 PM by lpap » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2005, 04:28:30 PM »



Interesting. I read something on-line (I think from that Old Believer ROCOR parish in Erie, PA) that said that all girls should wear a scarf once they are not infants in their mother's arms. I also saw a photo of a ROCA priest and his family. All of the girls wore scarves.


Old Believers have traditions that weren't carried on by the regular Russian church after they split.

As far as the ROCA priest and his family... Being the daughter (ROCOR), granddaughter (ROCOR), and great-granddaughter (Russian Church, pre-Revolution) of Russian priests, I can say that different ROCOR priests have different rules for their children.  My father and grandfather never told us to wear scarves, hats or any kind of headcovering, though I have heard them mention that it bothers them when they see scarves on infants and young girls. 
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« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2005, 05:45:29 PM »

Old Believers have traditions that weren't carried on by the regular Russian church after they split.

As far as the ROCA priest and his family... Being the daughter (ROCOR), granddaughter (ROCOR), and great-granddaughter (Russian Church, pre-Revolution) of Russian priests, I can say that different ROCOR priests have different rules for their children. My father and grandfather never told us to wear scarves, hats or any kind of headcovering, though I have heard them mention that it bothers them when they see scarves on infants and young girls.


Whoops, jurisidictional confusion again!  I meant ROAC not ROCA. 

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« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2005, 05:58:21 PM »

I was wondering if it was the ROAC picture that you had seen, Jennifer.  The one of the McGowan family out in Colorado? 

I've been following the ROAC ummm doings on line for over a year.  I, sorry, but I would not take the ROAC for any sort of authority on EO living. Ania has been ROCOR all her life and I think she is a much better authority.

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« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2005, 03:13:53 AM »

Ania,

I found it interesting that you said that in old Russian tradition the wife is scarved on the following Sunday to show her new status as a wife. I guess this is at the time of the churching (if that's the correct word in English)?

Romanians have a similar tradition, though it's not done at the same time. The following Sunday we merely kneel before the priest, get blessed with holy water and are accepted into the church for the first time as a married couple - there's no headscarf involved. However, there is a ceremony during the wedding night (I don't know about other traditions, but Romanian wedding receptions tend to go from dusk till dawn - literally) called the 'undressing of the bride'. In this ceremony, which takes place in the early hours of the morning, the bride's veil and train are removed and the veil is replaced with a headscarf. This has precisely the symbolism you mention with regards to the Russian tradition. It also provided me with one of my favourite photos from our wedding.

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« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2005, 09:18:31 AM »

From an earlier post:

"Do you know that angels are present in the church ?

The covers over the heads are signs for the angels, because they are not able to distinguish the difference bettwen a man and a woman.

And the true meaning is not about the visual covers but the unseen ones. "

Two questions: (1) If the angels cannot tell the difference between a man and a woman, why does this difference matter? (2) What do you mean by "unseen ones?" Unseen covers? I am baffled.
Thanks

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« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2005, 11:19:24 AM »


Two questions: (1) If the angels cannot tell the difference between a man and a woman, why does this difference matter? (2) What do you mean by "unseen ones?" Unseen covers? I am baffled.
Thanks


Yes I'm interested in this one too! Can anyone explain, please?
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« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2005, 04:47:12 PM »

I read or heard somewhere that the "because of the angels" line in 1 Corinthians 11, had to do with the Book of Enoch.  The Book of Enoch was popular reading during the first century and  St. Paul, being an educated man, probably read it.  It was quoted in Jude and copies of it were found among the dead sea scrolls.  Also, it is my understanding that it is still a part of the Ethiopian canon of scripture.

Anyway, the Book of Enoch tells of some angels who came to earth and did things they shouldn't have with mortal woman.  According to what I read or heard, St. Paul was making reference to that. In other words, women should cover their heads so that they are not a temptation to the angels.

That interpretation seems a little weird to me, especially since the angels are everywhere (or so I thought) and not just in church when we are praying. 

I have never heard the theory that St. Paul was saying that headcoverings are needed to help the angels distinguish between male and female.  It would be interesting to hear an explaination of this interpretation.
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« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2005, 11:39:43 PM »

Hi Carol,

Let me answer your questions.

> If the angels cannot tell the difference between a man and a woman, why does this difference matter?
There is biological difference in the body. Of course angels can tell the difference between a man and a woman regarding their bodies! So what is this difference that they cannot understand and for that reason they need help from women?

The passage from S. Paul is: I Corinthians 11:10 "Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels". The original text in Greek is: "+¦+¦ß+¦ -ä++ß+ª-ä++ ß+Ç-å+¦ß+++++¦+¦ ß+í +¦-à ++ß+¦ ß+É++++-à -âß+++¦++ ß+ö-ç+¦+¦++ ß+É-Çß+¦ -äß+å-é +¦+¦-å+¦++ß+å-é +¦+¦ß+¦ -ä++ß+¦-é ß+Ç+¦+¦ß+¦++++-à -é" in which the word "+¦+¦+¼ - because" has the meaning "for the benefit".

So the actual translation of the passage is the following: I Corinthians 11:10 "Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, for the benefit of the angels". In this frame seems that the whole issue is a misunderstanding regarding that the angels are those who benefit by the symbol of authority on the heads of women not the women themselves.
I repeat: the angels benefit by the symbol of authority on the heads of women.

The angels comprehend that a woman being, that she was created after the creation of man and she has for this reason a symbol of authority on her head to manifest that she is humble in her own nature compared to a man that can boast about his time-lead in creation, she is in the eyes of God equal with man and she is accepted in the Church just the same as man is. You must have in mind that the angels were present during the creation of man. They know all about man and woman creation.

There is a danger that a woman will enter the church with no sign/symbol of the acceptance that “I am a nature created after man". In this case the second (in time) woman nature will challenge the first (in time) man nature for an equality that is not true. So angels learn that women in the Church are not challenging man for this reason, and they accept to remain in this place by wearing a symbol of authority on their heads. This manifestation from women benefits the angels in helping them to realize that the natural order is not important in front of the face of God.

It’s like arriving at a restaurant after someone else has arrived before you. So you take and hold a symbol to show that you accept this second -in time-place. Nevertheless the restaurant manager is serving both you and the time leading customer in the same way without making any exception regarding the time difference of your arrival. Now if someone else was seeing this incident he would understand that since you accepted to hold the symbol of your lateness it is the generosity of the restaurant manager that equate you with this time-leading customer.

In the same way the angels are seeing that in Church women are accepting to hold the symbol of their natural lateness (inasmuch man was created before them) and they are actually submit themselves to man priority in salvation but the Grace and Love of Lord equates man and woman. So angels benefit from this behavior because - with the help of women - they are learning that Lord abolishes the time-first privilege of man for the favor of women.

If women were not holding this symbol of authority on their heads then this lesson would have not be given to angels. The angels would have not be able to realize the difference between man and woman before salvation and after salvation. Before salvation there is a difference that has to be lifted by making man and woman same in everything by earthly efforts. After salvation the difference is lifted by God Himself without any human effort or use of earthly means. After salvation the under authority woman is free by the Grace of Lord.

(2) What do you mean by "unseen ones?"
I mean that S. Paul is not talking about fashion. His concern is to teach us that humbleness is the dressing to wear in front of God. This is the unseen cover.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2005, 12:01:05 AM by lpap » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2005, 12:33:48 PM »

Interesting! I wonder why is it that so few women use it (at least here in Finland) when it is considered to be so important.
Even my priest whom I appreciate very higly doesn't see scarves necessary. Is there any theological reason not wearing a scarf, has someone decided at some point that it isn't important anymore, or is it a question of not caring? Huh
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« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2005, 01:00:02 PM »

Sister Verushka,

Orthodoxy has never tried to teach how to stand, or what to wear, or how to look like.
I believe this is the power of Truth in Orthodoxy. Not to transform people into an army of clone Christian believers but to unite the variety of each person into one Body .

Regarding your question no one has decided contrary the teaching of S. Paul.

If you go to a monastery you will find that in a men’s' monastery monks do not cover their heads inside the church and in a women’s' monastery nuns are always have their heads covered inside the church.

A general rule is that you can find Orthodoxy in real practice only inside monasteries.

The Church shows tolerance for people out of monastic life.

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« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2005, 02:06:54 PM »

Thank you Ipap for reminding me... I should have known myself   Smiley
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« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2005, 12:11:53 PM »

While below is not the article I referred to above, it is close and from an obvious heterodox source. I still find it interesting. Comments?

http://www.godswordtowomen.org/clements_submission.htm
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« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2005, 02:06:07 PM »

While below is not the article I referred to above, it is close and from an obvious heterodox source. I still find it interesting. Comments?
http://www.godswordtowomen.org/clements_submission.htm

They translate the 1 Corinthians 11:10 as "A woman should have power over her head (physical head) because of the angels."

Then they explain it as "Therefore, the verse says that a woman should have the freedom of choice to cover or uncover her head, and she should not be judged or categorized because of her choice. Additional scriptures using the same language, "power over," include: Luke 9:1 "Power and authority over demons"; Luke 10: 19 "Authority over all the power of the enemy"; Revelation 2:26 "Power over the nations"; Revelation 6:8 "Power over the fourth part of the earth?"; Revelation 14:18 "Power over fire"; and Revelation 16:9 "Power over these plagues."

As you see there is a misunderstanding because if we use this context then in the cases of Luke 9:1 "Power and authority over demons"; Luke 10: 19 "Authority over all the power of the enemy"; Revelation 2:26 "Power over the nations"; Revelation 6:8 "Power over the fourth part of the earth?"; Revelation 14:18 "Power over fire"; and Revelation 16:9 "Power over these plagues", the "power over" means having freedom of choice, having the authority to act regarding the subject which the power is over.

This explanation does not stand in these passages, because we then accept that in Luke 9:11 "And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons and to heal diseases." means that "And He called the twelve together, and gave them the freedom of choice to act upon the demons and to heal diseases." Such a translation has many problems. The same stands for the other references too. In all these references, the meaning of "power over" and "authority over" means "to have the power to defeat an enemy" which of course can not be applied to 1 Corinthians 11:10 in case of woman's head.

I think that the right translation is "Therefore the woman ought to have (a symbol of) authority on her head, for the benefit of the angels. To "have authority" should taken not as "having the power", but as "having (a symbol of) power".

It's like telling to a policeman "Show me your authority over me, in order to arrest me" and by that I mean show me the symbol of your authority, show me the arrest warrant.

It’s like saying " a Policeman ought to have authority on his head" and by that we mean that he has to were a hat that is the symbol of a higher authority under which he stands and for that reason we cannot challenge his policeman status.  
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« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2005, 11:57:39 PM »

Thanks. lpap, for your usual painstakingly detailed analysis.
I do not disagree with you; but I did find the points on 'messenger' and 'submission' interesting. My lost article was more specific as to why this submission was not so much an obedience thing, but more of a respect thing.


{Yes, I just moved this from where I posted it earlier today - don't know how I had it in wrong thread to start with... Embarrassed }
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« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2005, 08:38:13 AM »

Out of curiosity . . .

Is there anything wrong with women covering their heads with hats?Huh

Down here it's about 80% to 20%.  Most of the women wear hats, although the women who wear hats will occassionally wear scarves.  Of course the hats do double duty and protect women's faces from the sun.  I know it's not for fashion, but I don't show up wearing grubby jeans and a torn up t-shirt and shout that church isn't a place for fashion or uniforms.  The hats look very nice and formal and appropriate for church, especially down here. 

At any rate, as untraditional as they may seem, I throw in my hat for, ummmm, hats.
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« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2005, 08:43:43 AM »

<grin>
I've never heard of hats being a no-no.
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« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2005, 10:55:02 AM »

Hats actually were worn much more up until about 15-20 years ago.  The whole scarf thing I think came in when people stopped dressing up for church.  If you look at old photos of parishes, you would see most of the women in hats, and not just normal hats, but really fancy-shmancy numbers.  These hats would match their outfits, which were usually nice modern (for them) suits or dresses, well cut and not at all floor length (mid-calf or right below the knee was quite normal).
To this day, my mother and both grandmothers wear hats to church, and only throw on a scarf if they are in a great hurry and don't have time to make themselves up. 
To them and other women who wear those hats, going to church is an event, and they must prepare phsyically as well as spirtually.  They are going to meet and stand before God.  To them going in drab clothing and a scarf would be insulting.  They are going to meet the most important Person in their lives, more improtant than their husbands, bosses, etc, and therefore their clothing must reflect it.  Dressing so is a sign of respect, and to them not a fashion show.
Sometimes I wish I had a little more respect for God to make a real effort in my appearance when going to church than just on Christmas, Petacost and Pascha.

Speaking of, I just realized, Holy Thursday, leaving for home tomorrow AM and I REALLY need to go shopping for an outfit, I have nothing in my closet good enough for Pascha...  There goes my lunch hour.
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« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2005, 01:49:11 AM »

The girls at church look so cute in those headscarves. Smiley
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« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2005, 12:01:30 PM »

I realise this a really old topic, but just one comment: since I started attending Orthodox services nearly three years ago, scarves have never been the slightest problem for me, I don't even *think* about it when I'm wearing one.  I like covering my head in church.  For me, it just feels pious...hard to explain.  BUT, as far as the long skirts go, I'm fighting them tooth and nail.  They're fine during Lent or if you're visiting a monastery, but oh, how I hate them as "standard church attire."   I'm really short(5'0) which may have something to do with it.  I always wear a skirt that covers my knees, but ankle length, it's a battle for me.  Just to be clear, everyone who wears long skirts at my church look very nice.  They are just something I can't stand on me.  When I was working, I ALWAYS wore a skirt to work.  Never even thought about it.  Always to church, always to a nice restaurant, but weekends I wear jeans, or long shorts.  It makes me sad to think that this is somehow "wrong."   It's true, everyday I see women dressed like, well, hookers.  And it's a sad statement.  But I'm never going to be able to do the "home church Fundamentalist " Orthodox look.  If it helps one's spiritual development, great, but I just don't feel the need to wear an "Orthodox uniform."  Now this is not a criticism of anyone else, just how it is for me.
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« Reply #66 on: July 04, 2005, 05:55:31 PM »

Don't worry about it.  If your skirt covers your knees, you're doing fine.  The really long skirts can be useful, however, if you are into doing the full prostrations.  It can be a bit tricky in a shorter skirt.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Smiley
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« Reply #67 on: July 04, 2005, 07:17:45 PM »

For me, it just feels pious...hard to explain.

And hence why I made a point out of somethign seemingly so irrelevant in the first place (and why I made the statement that those who insist on it would be better off in islam), when a young lady (or worse yet an infant, but let's not go there) wears a headscarf it too often seems to be false piety to me, not necessicarily the young lady's false piety (and certainly not the aforementioned infant's) but the false piety of perhaps the priest or perhaps influential members of the congregation..my first suspicion would be the priest (or parents in the infant's case); maybe I'm wrong, and I genuinely hope I am...now if you just think it's something really cool to wear, or, better yet, are wearing headscarves because it is scandalous to certain segments of society (ecclesiastical and secular)...then great, go for it, I'd be indifferent in the first instance and supportive in the second Wink

Quote
BUT, as far as the long skirts go, I'm fighting them tooth and nail.  They're fine during Lent or if you're visiting a monastery, but oh, how I hate them as "standard church attire."  ÃƒÆ’‚ I'm really short(5'0) which may have something to do with it.  I always wear a skirt that covers my knees, but ankle length, it's a battle for me.  Just to be clear, everyone who wears long skirts at my church look very nice.  They are just something I can't stand on me.  When I was working, I ALWAYS wore a skirt to work.  Never even thought about it.  Always to church, always to a nice restaurant, but weekends I wear jeans, or long shorts.  It makes me sad to think that this is somehow "wrong."  ÃƒÆ’‚ It's true, everyday I see women dressed like, well, hookers.  And it's a sad statement.  But I'm never going to be able to do the "home church Fundamentalist " Orthodox look.  If it helps one's spiritual development, great, but I just don't feel the need to wear an "Orthodox uniform."  Now this is not a criticism of anyone else, just how it is for me.

Try pants, female members of the United States Senate and ladies in the House of Lords have been wearing them for years...even Her Majesty the Queen wears them in public...or better yet, you could be perfectly scandalous and go to church in an anderi...lol.

Ah, that reminds me, as this is the 4th of July, I thought these few words would be appropriate:

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!!!
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« Reply #68 on: July 04, 2005, 07:23:37 PM »

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« Reply #69 on: July 04, 2005, 07:26:15 PM »

And hence why I made a point out of somethign seemingly so irrelevant in the first place (and why I made the statement that those who insist on it would be better off in islam), when a young lady (or worse yet an infant, but let's not go there) wears a headscarf it too often seems to be false piety to me

And this is your problem by making this judgement on them just because they want to follow the traditions of the Church and not embrace modernism as the Protestants have. Just because you do not respect Church Tradition gives you no right to make such a negative judgement on someone who does.

On one side you argue for the Church to get with the times and modernize and not stay the same as it has always been, but on the other side you fight those who show you modern bishops that now speak against slavery. You cannot have it both way. Either embrace the Orthodox Tradition and not secularism and modernism or if you want to embrace the secular modern world as an example for Orthodox Christians, then do not use the traditions of the Church (since you do not believe in them) to defend yourself in supporting slavery and other things!
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« Reply #70 on: July 04, 2005, 07:30:21 PM »

...those who insist on it [headscarves] would be better off in islam)

I’d like to see you say that to my mamma’s face, she’d slap you silly boy!

Peace.
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« Reply #71 on: July 04, 2005, 07:34:36 PM »

The bizarre part of your argument, GreekisPagan, is the inconsistancy of them.  We all know that you are opposed to the use of all English in American (and I assume all native English speaking lands) because that would be a break from Tradition.  Langauge is solely external - yet it is a custom you insist upon... yet any custom tied to Orthopraxis you are opposed to.  Alas this seems to be the mentality of many of those coming from Holy Cross - worship of Greek ethnicity and lukewarmness towards Orthodoxy.  Without her Orthodoxy Greek is nothing more than homosexual pagans.... it is Orthodoxy that is exalted, not Greece.  And I am willing to bet that I have spent a great deal more time actually in Greece than you and if your Greek is anything like the rest of those coming out of Holy Cross, mine is considerably better than yours. ÂÂ
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« Reply #72 on: July 04, 2005, 07:58:18 PM »

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Without her Orthodoxy Greek is nothing more than homosexual pagans....

LOL I'd like to give you more opportunity to make calls like that.

What is Egyptian without Orthodoxy? Come on, you got much to play with...sand, camels, sand...

Entertain me,

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« Reply #73 on: July 04, 2005, 09:47:12 PM »

The Queen wears pants?!   Shocked

I have problems with two of the arguments presented against headscarves in this thread and the other headscarf thread:

1.  The argument that wearing a headcovering in St. Paul's day was in accordance with the culture and that since we have a different culture, women should no longer wear them.

     This is pretty much the argument of those who think the Church should now support sex outside of marriage, gay marriage and other things that are explicitly forbidden by the scriptures.  In other words, the argument can be used to invalidate lots of biblical teachings, since the culture in which the Bible was written was so different from ours.

2.  The argument that headcoverings result in, or are the result of, false piety.

     In my church there is no pressure either way with regard to headcoverings.  I would say about forty percent of the women cover and the rest don't.  I have never detected any feelings of false piety coming from anyone, especially not our priest (whose wife does not cover.)  I have never felt any attitude from any of the women who cover, and I would hope no one is detecting that from me.

     I wear a scarf to the liturgy and it is purely because it makes me feel closer to God.  It helps me focus on the liturgy and reminds me that I am in a special place.  It doesn't make me feel pious, but that is probably because I'm really not very pious.  Really.  You should see me during Lent, desperately pigging out on beef ribs.  Actually it's good no one sees me, it's not a very attractive picture.  Maybe during Lent we could start a thread on where we go and what we pig out on when we cheat on the fast.  Unless, of course, I'm the only one who has ever done it.

     Sorry about the tangent. Where was I?  Oh yes.  Headscarves.  While I have a problem with people judging women who don't wear them, I have as much of a problem with those who judge women (and their priests) who do.  Just because someone wants to follow the biblical injunction from 1 Corinthians 11, doesn't mean they or their priest are locked in a frivolous ethnic tradition.  It also doesn't mean they are pretentiously pious.
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« Reply #74 on: July 04, 2005, 10:17:18 PM »

I tried to reply to this yesterday but my browser crashed and I am not sure if this is the correct thead since there are two headscarf threads.  Anyway, GisC said that freezing a culture in time is an Islamic thing.  I would ask GisC if he has ever been in a majority Muslim region of the world as I have and if he is aware of the fact that Islam grows and develops just like any other religion and culture, and that the fundamentalist Islamic movement known as Wahabbism is only a modern phenomenon really.  By the 19th century, most educated Muslims seem to have become quite "liberal" and it is only now that there is a "reevangelization" of these Muslims by the Wahabbists with their luddite and anti-cultural positions.  My point in all of this is that we shouldn't label headscarves an Islamic thing as many if not all Muslim women don't even wear headscarves now!

Anastasios
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« Reply #75 on: July 04, 2005, 10:58:01 PM »

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=5594.msg85858#msg85858 date=1120519575]
And this is your problem by making this judgement on them just because they want to follow the traditions of the Church and not embrace modernism as the Protestants have. Just because you do not respect Church Tradition gives you no right to make such a negative judgement on someone who does.
[/quote]

I have a profound respect for the Traditions of the Church, and I even respect the cultural customs of the Church, though I dont necessarily believe they should all be propagated into the next generation. For their time and in their social context they were important and at times even vital to the well being of the Church.

Quote
On one side you argue for the Church to get with the times and modernize and not stay the same as it has always been, but on the other side you fight those who show you modern bishops that now speak against slavery. You cannot have it both way. Either embrace the Orthodox Tradition and not secularism and modernism or if you want to embrace the secular modern world as an example for Orthodox Christians, then do not use the traditions of the Church (since you do not believe in them) to defend yourself in supporting slavery and other things!

I am distinguishing here between social customs and teachings of Morality and Dogma...my statement about Headscarfs is a social custom, my statement about Slavery is one of Morality. Local customs change, not morality.

The bizarre part of your argument, GreekisPagan, is the inconsistancy of them.  We all know that you are opposed to the use of all English in American (and I assume all native English speaking lands) because that would be a break from Tradition. Langauge is solely external - yet it is a custom you insist upon... yet any custom tied to Orthopraxis you are opposed to.

In part it's a break from tradition, but the break is accented by the fact that the Liturgy was originally written in Greek, better the Original than some translator's interpretation of it. But also, and perhaps more importantly, is the fact that Greek is the language our Mother Church uses; furthermore, the Holy and Oecumenical Throne of Constantinople is actually opposed to our use of English, making the use thereof an active rebellion against His All-Holiness in light of the direct and forthcoming statements he has made on the issue. Finally, the Greek community in the United States, in general, wants to maintain Greek, understanding the language to be central to who they are...My arguing against English in the liturgy is not merely an insistance on the perpetual propagation of every minor Custom, the importance of Greek in the Liturgy is far more significant than any importance headscarves ever have or will play.

Quote
Alas this seems to be the mentality of many of those coming from Holy Cross - worship of Greek ethnicity and lukewarmness towards Orthodoxy.  Without her Orthodoxy Greek is nothing more than homosexual pagans.... it is Orthodoxy that is exalted, not Greece.  And I am willing to bet that I have spent a great deal more time actually in Greece than you and if your Greek is anything like the rest of those coming out of Holy Cross, mine is considerably better than yours. 

And all this is relevant how?
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« Reply #76 on: July 04, 2005, 11:12:52 PM »

The Queen wears pants?!  ÃƒÆ’‚ Shocked

Yes, it was quite a shock to me when I first noticed it about 10 years ago, but as I've payed more attention to that over the years I've noticed that she quite often does when she's not involved Formal State affairs, times are certainly changing.

Quote
I have problems with two of the arguments presented against headscarves in this thread and the other headscarf thread:

1.ÂÂ  The argument that wearing a headcovering in St. Paul's day was in accordance with the culture and that since we have a different culture, women should no longer wear them.

  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ This is pretty much the argument of those who think the Church should now support sex outside of marriage, gay marriage and other things that are explicitly forbidden by the scriptures.  In other words, the argument can be used to invalidate lots of biblical teachings, since the culture in which the Bible was written was so different from ours.

As I've made no pretense about believing in the Infallibility of Scripture I don't find this passage to be problematic; but as I said in my previous post, and as I've said before, there is a difference between social customs and teachings of Dogma or Morality. We have no problem recognizing this in the Old Testament (e.g. laws about cleanness and uncleanness), what's so difficult about recognizing it in the New Testament?

Quote
2.ÂÂ  The argument that headcoverings result in, or are the result of, false piety.

  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ In my church there is no pressure either way with regard to headcoverings.  I would say about forty percent of the women cover and the rest don't.  I have never detected any feelings of false piety coming from anyone, especially not our priest (whose wife does not cover.)  I have never felt any attitude from any of the women who cover, and I would hope no one is detecting that from me.

  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ I wear a scarf to the liturgy and it is purely because it makes me feel closer to God.  It helps me focus on the liturgy and reminds me that I am in a special place.  It doesn't make me feel pious, but that is probably because I'm really not very pious.  Really.  You should see me during Lent, desperately pigging out on beef ribs.  Actually it's good no one sees me, it's not a very attractive picture.  Maybe during Lent we could start a thread on where we go and what we pig out on when we cheat on the fast.  Unless, of course, I'm the only one who has ever done it.

I hope it is not pietism for you or for anyone at your Church, and perhaps it's not; however, I say what I say from experience because when I have been in such places where all the Women Cover their Heads because it is required of them (NOTE: This is the Situation I've been talking about; thus, as only 40% of the women at your Church cover their heads, your Situation is not the one I have been refering to) there is very often a Cultic atmosphere where the false piety is quite obvious. (EkhristosAnesti, dont take too much offence here, having never attended a Coptic Service, I am unable to form an opinion one way or the other with regard to your parishes. Thus this is obviously not targeted at you.)
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« Reply #77 on: July 04, 2005, 11:14:38 PM »

the importance of Greek in the Liturgy is far more significant than any importance headscarves ever have or will play.


I can't see how you can write this with a straight face.  All women in all cultures have covered their heads in worship.  Scriptures say that women should cover their heads in church.  Where is Greek in the liturgy mentioned in Scripture?  Have all Christians used Greek in the liturgy?  No. 

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« Reply #78 on: July 04, 2005, 11:18:55 PM »


I hope it is not pietism for you or for anyone at your Church, and perhaps it's not; however, I say what I say from experience because when I have been in such places where all the Women Cover their Heads because it is required of them (NOTE: This is the Situation I've been talking about; thus, as only 40% of the women at your Church cover their heads, your Situation is not the one I have been refering to) there is very often a Cultic atmosphere where the false piety is quite obvious. (EkhristosAnesti, dont take too much offence here, having never attended a Coptic Service, I am unable to form an opinion one way or the other with regard to your parishes. Thus this is obviously not targeted at you.)

The thing that strikes me about almost all of greekchristian's posts is his negative opinions of Orthodox Christians who think differently than him.  According to greekchristian, Greek Orthodox who want english in the service hate their heritage.  Now he suspects that women who cover their heads in church have false piety. 

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« Reply #79 on: July 04, 2005, 11:19:26 PM »

I tried to reply to this yesterday but my browser crashed and I am not sure if this is the correct thead since there are two headscarf threads.ÂÂ  Anyway, GisC said that freezing a culture in time is an Islamic thing.ÂÂ  I would ask GisC if he has ever been in a majority Muslim region of the world as I have and if he is aware of the fact that Islam grows and develops just like any other religion and culture, and that the fundamentalist Islamic movement known as Wahabbism is only a modern phenomenon really.ÂÂ  By the 19th century, most educated Muslims seem to have become quite "liberal" and it is only now that there is a "reevangelization" of these Muslims by the Wahabbists with their luddite and anti-cultural positions.ÂÂ  My point in all of this is that we shouldn't label headscarves an Islamic thing as many if not all Muslim women don't even wear headscarves now!

Anastasios

Though I have not spent time in Islamic States, I do understand where you are comming from...Islam was a very progressive religion for many years, and in some places may even continue as such, though the fundamentalist elements that are coming and have come out of the poorer elements of society (fundamentalism almost always seems to rise from the lower classes, regardless of culture or religion) have overshadowed this element of Islamic religion, thus making my statement relevant to modern trends in Islam, if not with historical Islam. Thus, in the sense you have presented it, my attributing headscarves to being 'an Islamic thing' is, historically at least, unfair to Islam.
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« Reply #80 on: July 04, 2005, 11:22:58 PM »

The thing that strikes me about almost all of greekchristian's posts is his negative opinions of Orthodox Christians who think differently than him.ÂÂ  According to greekchristian, Greek Orthodox who want english in the service hate their heritage.ÂÂ  Now he suspects that women who cover their heads in church have false piety.ÂÂ  

That's not what I said, go back and read what you quoted from me carefully. (Hint, read the NOTE I put in the parentheses.)
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« Reply #81 on: July 04, 2005, 11:23:11 PM »

I would like to see english in Serbian Church in Australia. I am sick of sending all my anglican friends to Antiochian Church. Church is not a language museum. People should not expect the Church to teach their kids and grandkids Serbian. Same with customs. It is job of parents to educate kids.

Church is ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC.


Sorry, that was my cry for today.

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« Reply #82 on: July 04, 2005, 11:25:45 PM »

Not to separate this into a male/female issue, but let the women do as they will as they are responsible to their priest and bishop, and let the men address this with their significant others/wives and not worry about other people, especially other people's female relatives.
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« Reply #83 on: July 04, 2005, 11:36:42 PM »

Not to separate this into a male/female issue, but let the women do as they will as they are responsible to their priest and bishop, and let the men address this with their significant others/wives and not worry about other people, especially other people's female relatives.

True.
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« Reply #84 on: July 05, 2005, 12:58:55 AM »

Not to separate this into a male/female issue, but let the women do as they will as they are responsible to their priest and bishop, and let the men address this with their significant others/wives and not worry about other people, especially other people's female relatives.

Headscarves are just a minor issue of a larger problem, fundamentalism in the Orthodox Church. From the nature of my posts it should be clear that I am concerned with these priests and bishops, who try an establish this custom as mandatory, more so than the women involved. This is the reason that I have said time and time again that the focus of my polemics has been parishes where headscarves are expected.
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« Reply #85 on: July 05, 2005, 02:03:53 AM »

What is the "fundamentalist Orthodox" position on pants suits?  What if a woman has their head covered but wears dress pants or some other pants?  One of the most pious members in my parish wears jeans, but has her head covered.  I think those of the (overly) "Traditionalist" variety need to realize that 18th century Russia dress <> the Orthodox standard of dress.  The point is modesty and piety.  No skirt (i.e. pants) <> impious.
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« Reply #86 on: July 05, 2005, 02:13:15 AM »

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Headscarves are just a minor issue of a larger problem, fundamentalism in the Orthodox Church.

Come one now, let's be honest.  I will openly admit and say that I am a "traditionalist."  But at the same time I mostly attend a more "modernist" parish.  No one has asked my opinion on headscares nor many other matters, so I never have offered it.  My attitude is that what other people do is between them and thier spiritual fathers (and ultimately God).  I just do my komposkini and say nothing.  Of course their are "traditionalists" who throw temper tantrums and such - but I don't see that as being in line with being a good Christian either (nor do most traditionalists either).  Most parishes where head scarves are seen as mandatory kindly ask visitors to wear out of respect of their custom... they don't go around to other places making sure everyone else comforms to them.  You on the other hand have appointed yourself to judge all those who think differently than you.  Quite frankly you are one of the most intolerant of people that I have come across, so which fundamentalism are you fighting?  Is it just traditionalism that you are fighting? ÂÂ

Quote
And all this is relevant how? [Pertaining to what I said about Holy Cross]

It is relevant because it reveals a mentality of emphasis on Greek ethnicism over practices related to the faith.  I wrote what I did write concerning my own knowledge of Greek life and culture as a point that I am not anti- Greek, nor do I think knowledge of Greek should be eradicated.  My point is that if tomorrow the GOA ruled that vespers never needed to be served, confession should never be more than once a year (and then that's not even needed) and that fasting shouldn't really be observed there wouldn't be much commotion.... but rule that no more than 25% of the liturgy be greek and you would have a riot.


Quote
the fact that the Liturgy was originally written in Greek, better the Original than some translator's interpretation of it.

Well here's the thing, I agree with that.  Thus I do almost all of my personal prayers at home in Greek.  Even when I went to a parish that was 90% English usage and 10% Slavonic I did my personal prayers in Greek... an English Liturgy didn't stop me.  But there are good English translations out there (St. Anthony's Monastery recently did a very nice project translating both the words and the byzantine music into western notation, I think it is something you would enjoy looking at - I'm being serious here too).  But the reality is that if people don't understand Greek than there is no point in using it.  And the people that actually understand it (even among Greek Americans) is not a very large group.  By the time you hit the second and third generations in America the vocaulary isn't much more than "Καλημέρα."

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But also, and perhaps more importantly, is the fact that Greek is the language our Mother Church uses; furthermore, the Holy and Oecumenical Throne of Constantinople is actually opposed to our use of English, making the use thereof an active rebellion against His All-Holiness in light of the direct and forthcoming statements he has made on the issue.

Constantinople also has under its authority many non - Greeks (i.e the Ukrianians in America etc.).  Should they also use Greek, since the mother church uses it?  This is what I have been trying to say all along... this is a focus on the externals only not the Orthodoxy of the heart.  Should people in america flout the EP's authority? - of course not!  We should all pray that God opens our hearts to do his will and leave the issue at that. ÂÂ

Quote
Finally, the Greek community in the United States, in general, wants to maintain Greek, understanding the language to be central to who they are

Outside of major Greek communities on the east coast, Chicago or Detroit most Greek Americans do not know Greek.  And if they want to mantain Greek there is nothing wrong with them singing the Akathist or Paraklisis as a family every night in Greek.

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« Reply #87 on: July 05, 2005, 08:00:47 AM »

Quick thing here --

Folks have been or will be PM'd individually concerning comments.  Let's all play nice, now.

Namecalling is for poopheads.  Grin
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« Reply #88 on: July 05, 2005, 08:10:55 AM »

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Namecalling is for poopheads. Grin

oh boy, it seems frequent conversing with little Hope Elizabeth is rubbing off on Pedro's posting style! Smiley
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« Reply #89 on: July 05, 2005, 09:21:22 AM »

What is the "fundamentalist Orthodox" position on pants suits?ÂÂ  What if a woman has their head covered but wears dress pants or some other pants?ÂÂ  One of the most pious members in my parish wears jeans, but has her head covered.ÂÂ  I think those of the (overly) "Traditionalist" variety need to realize that 18th century Russia dress <> the Orthodox standard of dress.ÂÂ  The point is modesty and piety.ÂÂ  No skirt (i.e. pants) <> impious.

At the GOC parish I attend sometimes, headscarves are encouraged but not required (except when going to communion) while pants are forbidden (there are wrapparound skirts for anyone showing up not in the know); the sign on the door says though that men are not allowed to dress immodestly either.

Anastasios
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