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Offline Jetavan

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Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« on: January 09, 2014, 07:51:37 PM »
The Church of England has been accused of "dumbing down" Christian teaching by removing the requirement to repent sins and reject the devil in an alternative baptism service.

Michael Nazir-Ali, the former Bishop of Rochester, said "crucial areas of teaching" should not be eliminated.

The Church said priests would be able to choose whether to use the new wording or keep the existing service.

A trial is running at over 400 churches until April.

In the existing version of the service, parents and godparents are asked: "Do you reject the devil and all rebellion against God?" and "Do you repent of the sins that separate us from God and neighbour?"

In the new alternative version they are instead asked to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises".

Writing in the Mail on Sunday, Dr Nazir-Ali said...."Because of its anxiety to make everyone feel welcome and its desire not to offend anyone, the new service, almost entirely, does away with sin and the need to repent from its personal and social manifestations and consequences."
....
"It is best to call a halt to this perhaps well-meant effort before it further reduces the fullness of the Church's faith to easily swallowed soundbites."
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Offline Maria

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2014, 07:56:38 PM »
The Church of England has been accused of "dumbing down" Christian teaching by removing the requirement to repent sins and reject the devil in an alternative baptism service.

Michael Nazir-Ali, the former Bishop of Rochester, said "crucial areas of teaching" should not be eliminated.

The Church said priests would be able to choose whether to use the new wording or keep the existing service.

A trial is running at over 400 churches until April.

In the existing version of the service, parents and godparents are asked: "Do you reject the devil and all rebellion against God?" and "Do you repent of the sins that separate us from God and neighbour?"

In the new alternative version they are instead asked to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises".

Writing in the Mail on Sunday, Dr Nazir-Ali said...."Because of its anxiety to make everyone feel welcome and its desire not to offend anyone, the new service, almost entirely, does away with sin and the need to repent from its personal and social manifestations and consequences."
....
"It is best to call a halt to this perhaps well-meant effort before it further reduces the fullness of the Church's faith to easily swallowed soundbites."

C.S. Lewis must be turning over in his grave.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2014, 08:14:50 PM »
The Church of England has been accused of "dumbing down" Christian teaching by removing the requirement to repent sins and reject the devil in an alternative baptism service.

Michael Nazir-Ali, the former Bishop of Rochester, said "crucial areas of teaching" should not be eliminated.

The Church said priests would be able to choose whether to use the new wording or keep the existing service.

A trial is running at over 400 churches until April.

In the existing version of the service, parents and godparents are asked: "Do you reject the devil and all rebellion against God?" and "Do you repent of the sins that separate us from God and neighbour?"

In the new alternative version they are instead asked to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises".

Writing in the Mail on Sunday, Dr Nazir-Ali said...."Because of its anxiety to make everyone feel welcome and its desire not to offend anyone, the new service, almost entirely, does away with sin and the need to repent from its personal and social manifestations and consequences."
....
"It is best to call a halt to this perhaps well-meant effort before it further reduces the fullness of the Church's faith to easily swallowed soundbites."

C.S. Lewis must be turning over in his grave.

Why?  The service still requires one to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises."
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2014, 08:23:18 PM »
Why?  The service still requires one to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises."

How does the Anglican Church understand "evil"? 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Nephi

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2014, 01:15:58 AM »
The Church of England has been accused of "dumbing down" Christian teaching by removing the requirement to repent sins and reject the devil in an alternative baptism service.

Michael Nazir-Ali, the former Bishop of Rochester, said "crucial areas of teaching" should not be eliminated.

The Church said priests would be able to choose whether to use the new wording or keep the existing service.

A trial is running at over 400 churches until April.

In the existing version of the service, parents and godparents are asked: "Do you reject the devil and all rebellion against God?" and "Do you repent of the sins that separate us from God and neighbour?"

In the new alternative version they are instead asked to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises".

Writing in the Mail on Sunday, Dr Nazir-Ali said...."Because of its anxiety to make everyone feel welcome and its desire not to offend anyone, the new service, almost entirely, does away with sin and the need to repent from its personal and social manifestations and consequences."
....
"It is best to call a halt to this perhaps well-meant effort before it further reduces the fullness of the Church's faith to easily swallowed soundbites."

C.S. Lewis must be turning over in his grave.

I imagine he turned over a while ago.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2014, 01:38:26 AM »
Why?  The service still requires one to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises."
There's a thread over on the Christianforums anglican section, where some members interpret this as a move to allow baptism/marriage/death attendees to baptize their kids without having to affirm things they don't believe in, or having to promise to do anything Christian with the kid when they are obviously not going to.

What do you think?
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Maria

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2014, 01:46:59 AM »
Why?  The service still requires one to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises."
There's a thread over on the Christianforums anglican section, where some members interpret this as a move to allow baptism/marriage/death attendees to baptize their kids without having to affirm things they don't believe in, or having to promise to do anything Christian with the kid when they are obviously not going to.

What do you think?

I quit CF three months ago due their weird beliefs. Just in case I was tempted to return, I scrambled my password and deleted my email address. I prefer OC.net.

Some of the Anglicans who post at CF are agnostic or atheistic, so certainly they would have problems with any organized religion. If they could accept baptism without affirming Christianity, that would please them greatly.

However, who is fooling who?

Have you read the spiritual writings of C.S. Lewis, especially the last book of his Space Trilogy: That Hideous Strength? There he describes cultural Anglicans who have no faith, no belief in Christ. These folks are part of N.I.C.E., which is not nice at all.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 01:50:39 AM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2014, 03:44:11 AM »
Why?  The service still requires one to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises."
There's a thread over on the Christianforums anglican section, where some members interpret this as a move to allow baptism/marriage/death attendees to baptize their kids without having to affirm things they don't believe in, or having to promise to do anything Christian with the kid when they are obviously not going to.

What do you think?

I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.  And besides, many Anglicans have long believed that there is no actual devil, and most of them (if the Episcopalians who don't believe in the devil are at all similar on this issue) who don't believe in a literal devil, instead take the devil as a metaphorical personification of evil.  So, in short, I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing.  And on the repenting of sins part, what is repentance if not the rejection of evil?  It's a turning around, away from sin and evil. 

Therefore, I think this change is fundamentally a good thing (though personally I prefer the more traditional language).  Those who do (like myself) believe in a literal Satan, will still be rejecting him when they reject all evil; and those who don't believe in a literal Satan won't be forced to say something they don't necessarily believe, but will still be able to say something with the same effect. (Oh, and I picked this one example just because I don't feel like writing a defense of the entire alternative baptism service).
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2014, 03:45:09 AM »
Why?  The service still requires one to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises."
There's a thread over on the Christianforums anglican section, where some members interpret this as a move to allow baptism/marriage/death attendees to baptize their kids without having to affirm things they don't believe in, or having to promise to do anything Christian with the kid when they are obviously not going to.

What do you think?

I quit CF three months ago due their weird beliefs. Just in case I was tempted to return, I scrambled my password and deleted my email address. I prefer OC.net.

Some of the Anglicans who post at CF are agnostic or atheistic, so certainly they would have problems with any organized religion. If they could accept baptism without affirming Christianity, that would please them greatly.

However, who is fooling who?

Have you read the spiritual writings of C.S. Lewis, especially the last book of his Space Trilogy: That Hideous Strength? There he describes cultural Anglicans who have no faith, no belief in Christ. These folks are part of N.I.C.E., which is not nice at all.

I've never read the Space Trilogy, because C.S. Lewis was a less-than-good author, and an even worse intellectual.
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline LBK

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2014, 03:54:48 AM »
Quote
I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.

There is a world of difference between an individual giving lip service to church teachings, and the proclamation of a church of fundamental doctrines and practices so diluted and anodyne in the name of "not frightening the horses", that they are meaningless and empty.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2014, 04:44:00 AM »

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2014, 04:44:13 AM »
Quote
I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.

There is a world of difference between an individual giving lip service to church teachings, and the proclamation of a church of fundamental doctrines and practices so diluted and anodyne in the name of "not frightening the horses", that they are meaningless and empty.

Is rejecting evil meaningless?
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2014, 04:59:41 AM »
I would trust that the ex-bishop quoted in the article is accurate in his criticisms of this move, and the motivations behind it. Regardless of what has been kept in the service, what they have apparently taken out reflects a certain mindset that does not sit well with traditional Christians, and rightly so. When you make your church and its services, theology, etc. so "welcoming" that it doesn't seem like you're affirming anything distinctively Christian, you should be ready for the inevitable result: further CoE decline and irrelevancy.

Offline Nacho

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2014, 05:01:09 AM »
I stopped reading at 'Church of England'.   ::) In case real Christianity gets a win here, please pm me. I don't have the cahones to read about gay weddings or some other BS these morons are doing these days in church.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 05:03:29 AM by Nacho »
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2014, 06:02:51 AM »
I would trust that the ex-bishop quoted in the article is accurate in his criticisms of this move, and the motivations behind it. Regardless of what has been kept in the service, what they have apparently taken out reflects a certain mindset that does not sit well with traditional Christians, and rightly so. When you make your church and its services, theology, etc. so "welcoming" that it doesn't seem like you're affirming anything distinctively Christian, you should be ready for the inevitable result: further CoE decline and irrelevancy.

I believe he is both accurate and sincere. Seems to be a traditionalist, as things go in the CofE, and not afraid to speak out. One reason he was unsuccessful candidate for the Canterbury seat, although unkinder souls speculated it was because he is a Pakistani. Anyway, he is one of the few I have any time for.

Offline FormerCalvinist

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2014, 06:16:58 AM »
Nothing Anglicans do surprises me anymore. They serve as a good warning, though, that the capitulation of truth for the sake of relevancy will only bring irrelevancy.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 06:17:19 AM by FormerCalvinist »

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2014, 06:40:30 AM »
Quote
I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.

There is a world of difference between an individual giving lip service to church teachings, and the proclamation of a church of fundamental doctrines and practices so diluted and anodyne in the name of "not frightening the horses", that they are meaningless and empty.

Is rejecting evil meaningless?

Of course. Christ says "deliver us from the evil one" not from evil.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2014, 09:01:55 AM »
Quote
I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.

There is a world of difference between an individual giving lip service to church teachings, and the proclamation of a church of fundamental doctrines and practices so diluted and anodyne in the name of "not frightening the horses", that they are meaningless and empty.

Is rejecting evil meaningless?

Of course. Christ says "deliver us from the evil one" not from evil.
That's debatable, right? Many Lord's Prayers in English have said 'deliver us from the evil'.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 09:04:37 AM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2014, 09:04:46 AM »
Quote
I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.

There is a world of difference between an individual giving lip service to church teachings, and the proclamation of a church of fundamental doctrines and practices so diluted and anodyne in the name of "not frightening the horses", that they are meaningless and empty.

Is rejecting evil meaningless?

Of course. Christ says "deliver us from the evil one" not from evil.
That's debatable, right? I've never heard of an English Lord's Prayer that said 'deliver us from the evil one' -- it's always been 'deliver us from evil'.

Using translations from Greek (instead of Greek), yes, that is probably what you've always heard.
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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2014, 09:35:07 AM »
Quote
I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.

There is a world of difference between an individual giving lip service to church teachings, and the proclamation of a church of fundamental doctrines and practices so diluted and anodyne in the name of "not frightening the horses", that they are meaningless and empty.

Is rejecting evil meaningless?

Of course. Christ says "deliver us from the evil one" not from evil.
That's debatable, right? I've never heard of an English Lord's Prayer that said 'deliver us from the evil one' -- it's always been 'deliver us from evil'.

Using translations from Greek (instead of Greek), yes, that is probably what you've always heard.
Isn't the Greek ambiguous?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2014, 09:38:24 AM »
Quote
I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.

There is a world of difference between an individual giving lip service to church teachings, and the proclamation of a church of fundamental doctrines and practices so diluted and anodyne in the name of "not frightening the horses", that they are meaningless and empty.

Is rejecting evil meaningless?

Of course. Christ says "deliver us from the evil one" not from evil.
That's debatable, right? I've never heard of an English Lord's Prayer that said 'deliver us from the evil one' -- it's always been 'deliver us from evil'.

Using translations from Greek (instead of Greek), yes, that is probably what you've always heard.
Isn't the Greek ambiguous?

Only at OC.net
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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2014, 09:56:58 AM »
Quote
I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.

There is a world of difference between an individual giving lip service to church teachings, and the proclamation of a church of fundamental doctrines and practices so diluted and anodyne in the name of "not frightening the horses", that they are meaningless and empty.

Is rejecting evil meaningless?

Of course. Christ says "deliver us from the evil one" not from evil.
That's debatable, right? I've never heard of an English Lord's Prayer that said 'deliver us from the evil one' -- it's always been 'deliver us from evil'.

Using translations from Greek (instead of Greek), yes, that is probably what you've always heard.
Isn't the Greek ambiguous?

Only at OC.net
It seems that Augustine was the problem here.

From J.B. Lightfoot (1891) On A Fresh Revision
of the English New Testament
, Appendix II, "The Last Petition of the Lord's Prayer", p. 318-319:

"To sum up; the earliest Latin Father, and the earliest Greek Father, of whose opinions we have any knowledge, both take tou ponerou masculine ['from the Evil One']. The masculine rendering seems to have been adopted universally by the Greek Fathers....In the Latin Church the earliest distinct testimony for the neuter ['from evil'] is S. Augustine at the end of the fourth century and the beginning of the fifth century. From that time forward the neuter gained ground in the Western Church till it altogether supplanted the masculine."
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 10:05:54 AM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2014, 10:15:18 AM »
It seems that Augustine was the problem here.

Wouldn't be the first time. :)

'Evil' in the original Greek, as well as in the Septuagint translation, is always κακόν or its plural κακά.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2014, 10:48:26 AM »
It seems that Augustine was the problem here.

Wouldn't be the first time. :)

'Evil' in the original Greek, as well as in the Septuagint translation, is always κακόν or its plural κακά.

Except "evil" is not in the Greek. The word used is "the Deceiver".
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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2014, 10:54:54 AM »
Why?  The service still requires one to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises."

How does the Anglican Church understand "evil"? 
Orthodoxy.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2014, 10:57:36 AM »
Why?  The service still requires one to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises."
There's a thread over on the Christianforums anglican section, where some members interpret this as a move to allow baptism/marriage/death attendees to baptize their kids without having to affirm things they don't believe in, or having to promise to do anything Christian with the kid when they are obviously not going to.

What do you think?

I quit CF three months ago due their weird beliefs. Just in case I was tempted to return, I scrambled my password and deleted my email address. I prefer OC.net.

Some of the Anglicans who post at CF are agnostic or atheistic, so certainly they would have problems with any organized religion. If they could accept baptism without affirming Christianity, that would please them greatly.

However, who is fooling who?

Have you read the spiritual writings of C.S. Lewis, especially the last book of his Space Trilogy: That Hideous Strength? There he describes cultural Anglicans who have no faith, no belief in Christ. These folks are part of N.I.C.E., which is not nice at all.

I've never read the Space Trilogy, because C.S. Lewis was a less-than-good author, and an even worse intellectual.
au contraire, he was a good author and an even better intellectual.

Your disagreement with his conclusions (in conformity with the Church) notwithstanding.
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2014, 11:01:45 AM »
It seems that Augustine was the problem here.

Wouldn't be the first time. :)

'Evil' in the original Greek, as well as in the Septuagint translation, is always κακόν or its plural κακά.
Which is "poop" in Italian. Coincidence?

In Christ,
Andrew
"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2014, 11:20:12 AM »
I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.  And besides, many Anglicans have long believed that there is no actual devil, and most of them (if the Episcopalians who don't believe in the devil are at all similar on this issue) who don't believe in a literal devil, instead take the devil as a metaphorical personification of evil.  So, in short, I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing.  And on the repenting of sins part, what is repentance if not the rejection of evil?  It's a turning around, away from sin and evil. 

As LBK said earlier, there's a difference between what private thoughts and beliefs individuals coming to the Church and/or members of the Church may have and what the Church itself believes: the latter must be clear, even if the former is not.  That's why I asked how the Anglican Church understands "evil" (I also want to ask how they understand all the words and actions of Christ and the apostles which appear to take "the devil", and not just "evil", as a given). 

The impression I am getting from this thread is that the Anglican Church starts with a belief, and when enough members differ, the Church tries to change its teaching without changing it in order to save face all around (but obviously, with enough popular pressure, the teaching will be officially changed as well).  If that's not what's happening here, what is?
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

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Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2014, 12:09:34 PM »
It seems that Augustine was the problem here.

Wouldn't be the first time. :)

'Evil' in the original Greek, as well as in the Septuagint translation, is always κακόν or its plural κακά.

Except "evil" is not in the Greek. The word used is "the Deceiver".

It is not in the Lord's prayer, but it is in other places.

The 'evil one', by comparison, is called o πονηρός (sly, cunning one) here, and elsewhere ο ενάντιος or ο αντικείμενος (literally, 'the opposing one' - or, more familiarly in the west, 'the Adversary').
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2014, 12:18:44 PM »
I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.  And besides, many Anglicans have long believed that there is no actual devil, and most of them (if the Episcopalians who don't believe in the devil are at all similar on this issue) who don't believe in a literal devil, instead take the devil as a metaphorical personification of evil.  So, in short, I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing.  And on the repenting of sins part, what is repentance if not the rejection of evil?  It's a turning around, away from sin and evil. 

As LBK said earlier, there's a difference between what private thoughts and beliefs individuals coming to the Church and/or members of the Church may have and what the Church itself believes: the latter must be clear, even if the former is not.  That's why I asked how the Anglican Church understands "evil" (I also want to ask how they understand all the words and actions of Christ and the apostles which appear to take "the devil", and not just "evil", as a given). 

The impression I am getting from this thread is that the Anglican Church starts with a belief, and when enough members differ, the Church tries to change its teaching without changing it in order to save face all around (but obviously, with enough popular pressure, the teaching will be officially changed as well).  If that's not what's happening here, what is?

Realistically, they (and other milquetoast-y "Christian" groups) believe evil as "not being nice to one another". 

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2014, 12:46:17 PM »
It seems that Augustine was the problem here.

Wouldn't be the first time. :)

'Evil' in the original Greek, as well as in the Septuagint translation, is always κακόν or its plural κακά.
Which is "poop" in Italian. Coincidence?

In Christ,
Andrew

I thought the same and I suspect it is not a coincidence.

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2014, 02:50:04 PM »
It seems that Augustine was the problem here.

Wouldn't be the first time. :)

'Evil' in the original Greek, as well as in the Septuagint translation, is always κακόν or its plural κακά.

Except "evil" is not in the Greek. The word used is "the Deceiver".

It is not in the Lord's prayer, but it is in other places.

The 'evil one', by comparison, is called o πονηρός (sly, cunning one) here, and elsewhere ο ενάντιος or ο αντικείμενος (literally, 'the opposing one' - or, more familiarly in the west, 'the Adversary').

If it's alright with you, I choose to go with the prayer as given by Christ himself.
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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2014, 02:57:09 PM »
Why?  The service still requires one to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises."
There's a thread over on the Christianforums anglican section, where some members interpret this as a move to allow baptism/marriage/death attendees to baptize their kids without having to affirm things they don't believe in, or having to promise to do anything Christian with the kid when they are obviously not going to.

What do you think?

I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.  And besides, many Anglicans have long believed that there is no actual devil, and most of them (if the Episcopalians who don't believe in the devil are at all similar on this issue) who don't believe in a literal devil, instead take the devil as a metaphorical personification of evil.  So, in short, I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing.  And on the repenting of sins part, what is repentance if not the rejection of evil?  It's a turning around, away from sin and evil. 

Therefore, I think this change is fundamentally a good thing (though personally I prefer the more traditional language).  Those who do (like myself) believe in a literal Satan, will still be rejecting him when they reject all evil; and those who don't believe in a literal Satan won't be forced to say something they don't necessarily believe, but will still be able to say something with the same effect. (Oh, and I picked this one example just because I don't feel like writing a defense of the entire alternative baptism service).
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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2014, 02:57:28 PM »
It seems that Augustine was the problem here.

Wouldn't be the first time. :)

'Evil' in the original Greek, as well as in the Septuagint translation, is always κακόν or its plural κακά.

Except "evil" is not in the Greek. The word used is "the Deceiver".

It is not in the Lord's prayer, but it is in other places.

The 'evil one', by comparison, is called o πονηρός (sly, cunning one) here, and elsewhere ο ενάντιος or ο αντικείμενος (literally, 'the opposing one' - or, more familiarly in the west, 'the Adversary').

If it's alright with you, I choose to go with the prayer as given by Christ himself.

I don't see what exactly your disagreement is.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline James2

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2014, 03:13:29 PM »
This baptismal change is not very surprising considering that many Anglican parishes already practice completely open communion - i.e., even the unbaptized are welcome to receive communion in the name of inclusivity.  Anglicanism has been gutting the sacraments of their meaning and efficacy for centuries.  This is just another step along that road.

Offline Maria

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2014, 03:17:45 PM »
Why?  The service still requires one to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises."
There's a thread over on the Christianforums anglican section, where some members interpret this as a move to allow baptism/marriage/death attendees to baptize their kids without having to affirm things they don't believe in, or having to promise to do anything Christian with the kid when they are obviously not going to.

What do you think?
I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.  And besides, many Anglicans have long believed that there is no actual devil, and most of them (if the Episcopalians who don't believe in the devil are at all similar on this issue) who don't believe in a literal devil, instead take the devil as a metaphorical personification of evil.  So, in short, I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing.  And on the repenting of sins part, what is repentance if not the rejection of evil?  It's a turning around, away from sin and evil.  

Therefore, I think this change is fundamentally a good thing (though personally I prefer the more traditional language).  Those who do (like myself) believe in a literal Satan, will still be rejecting him when they reject all evil; and those who don't believe in a literal Satan won't be forced to say something they don't necessarily believe, but will still be able to say something with the same effect. (Oh, and I picked this one example just because I don't feel like writing a defense of the entire alternative baptism service).
The job of the Church is not to make people feel comfortable in their beliefs. The job of the Church is to teach the truth.

+1

This baptismal change is not very surprising considering that many Anglican parishes already practice completely open communion - i.e., even the unbaptized are welcome to receive communion in the name of inclusivity.  Anglicanism has been gutting the sacraments of their meaning and efficacy for centuries.  This is just another step along that road.

That wide road that leads down the slippery slope into Hell where the streets are paved with the heads of priests and the lampposts are the bishops.

Lord have mercy.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 03:19:56 PM by Maria »
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Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2014, 11:48:18 PM »
Why?  The service still requires one to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises."

How does the Anglican Church understand "evil"? 

Evil is anything associated with big corporations making profits and anything considered right wing.  You can be a polygamous gay doctor who performs abortions and you'd be hiked as saint if the year.

Anglicans continue to destroy their church from within (frankly, I say let them).  It's no longer a question of "if", but "when."  All the clergy and bishops want to do is vie for the honor of steering the ship into the iceberg at full speed.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2014, 11:51:28 PM »
This baptismal change is not very surprising considering that many Anglican parishes already practice completely open communion - i.e., even the unbaptized are welcome to receive communion in the name of inclusivity.  Anglicanism has been gutting the sacraments of their meaning and efficacy for centuries.  This is just another step along that road.

For many priests who practice open communion, it is most certainly not just "in the name of inclusivity."
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2014, 11:51:52 PM »
Why?  The service still requires one to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises."
There's a thread over on the Christianforums anglican section, where some members interpret this as a move to allow baptism/marriage/death attendees to baptize their kids without having to affirm things they don't believe in, or having to promise to do anything Christian with the kid when they are obviously not going to.

What do you think?

I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.  And besides, many Anglicans have long believed that there is no actual devil, and most of them (if the Episcopalians who don't believe in the devil are at all similar on this issue) who don't believe in a literal devil, instead take the devil as a metaphorical personification of evil.  So, in short, I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing.  And on the repenting of sins part, what is repentance if not the rejection of evil?  It's a turning around, away from sin and evil. 

Therefore, I think this change is fundamentally a good thing (though personally I prefer the more traditional language).  Those who do (like myself) believe in a literal Satan, will still be rejecting him when they reject all evil; and those who don't believe in a literal Satan won't be forced to say something they don't necessarily believe, but will still be able to say something with the same effect. (Oh, and I picked this one example just because I don't feel like writing a defense of the entire alternative baptism service).
The job of the Church is not to make people feel comfortable in their beliefs. The job of the Church is to teach the truth.

Really?  Because I thought the job of the Church was to be the Body of Christ.
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline LBK

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2014, 02:03:03 AM »
Why?  The service still requires one to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises."
There's a thread over on the Christianforums anglican section, where some members interpret this as a move to allow baptism/marriage/death attendees to baptize their kids without having to affirm things they don't believe in, or having to promise to do anything Christian with the kid when they are obviously not going to.

What do you think?

I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.  And besides, many Anglicans have long believed that there is no actual devil, and most of them (if the Episcopalians who don't believe in the devil are at all similar on this issue) who don't believe in a literal devil, instead take the devil as a metaphorical personification of evil.  So, in short, I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing.  And on the repenting of sins part, what is repentance if not the rejection of evil?  It's a turning around, away from sin and evil.  

Therefore, I think this change is fundamentally a good thing (though personally I prefer the more traditional language).  Those who do (like myself) believe in a literal Satan, will still be rejecting him when they reject all evil; and those who don't believe in a literal Satan won't be forced to say something they don't necessarily believe, but will still be able to say something with the same effect. (Oh, and I picked this one example just because I don't feel like writing a defense of the entire alternative baptism service).
The job of the Church is not to make people feel comfortable in their beliefs. The job of the Church is to teach the truth.

Really?  Because I thought the job of the Church was to be the Body of Christ.

Christ is Truth, as He said of Himself: I am the Truth, the Way, and the Life.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 02:03:59 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2014, 02:21:48 AM »
For many priests who practice open communion, it is most certainly not just "in the name of inclusivity."

What is it, then? 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2014, 02:24:17 AM »
Really?  Because I thought the job of the Church was to be the Body of Christ.

I suppose you could say that, but I don't think I've ever really heard it put that way.  "Body of Christ" is not a job description for the Church, it's her identity: not something she does, but something she is.  But there is definitely a "job description" that goes along with that.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2014, 09:55:22 AM »
Why?  The service still requires one to "reject evil and all its many forms and all its empty promises."
There's a thread over on the Christianforums anglican section, where some members interpret this as a move to allow baptism/marriage/death attendees to baptize their kids without having to affirm things they don't believe in, or having to promise to do anything Christian with the kid when they are obviously not going to.

What do you think?

I think people frequently affirm things they don't believe in and promise to do things they have no intention of doing, in the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, and every other Church.  And besides, many Anglicans have long believed that there is no actual devil, and most of them (if the Episcopalians who don't believe in the devil are at all similar on this issue) who don't believe in a literal devil, instead take the devil as a metaphorical personification of evil.  So, in short, I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing.  And on the repenting of sins part, what is repentance if not the rejection of evil?  It's a turning around, away from sin and evil.  

Therefore, I think this change is fundamentally a good thing (though personally I prefer the more traditional language).  Those who do (like myself) believe in a literal Satan, will still be rejecting him when they reject all evil; and those who don't believe in a literal Satan won't be forced to say something they don't necessarily believe, but will still be able to say something with the same effect. (Oh, and I picked this one example just because I don't feel like writing a defense of the entire alternative baptism service).
The job of the Church is not to make people feel comfortable in their beliefs. The job of the Church is to teach the truth.

Really?  Because I thought the job of the Church was to be the Body of Christ.

Christ is Truth, as He said of Himself: I am the Truth, the Way, and the Life.

And what is truth?  Is it doctrine?
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

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Offline James2

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Re: Church of England accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2014, 10:30:49 AM »
And what is truth?  Is it doctrine?

Now you're sounding like Pilate.